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The US - a cultural watershed?
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The US - a cultural watershed? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
"The outcome sparked immediate fury among many of the loudest voices on the American right. Fox News commentator Bill O’Reilly led the way, declaring: “It’s not a traditional America anymore. The white establishment is now a minority." http://www.thestar.com/news/world/uselection/article/1283911--u-s-election-obama-s-second-chance Is the US where Britain was in the days of Enoch Powell? Was the US claim of equal opportunity for all just a hypocritical sham? i.e As long as wealthy white males remain in power everyone else can be equal. Does the hatred for Obama arise from the fact that he is the embodiment of all that right wing white American hates - evidence of the rise in power of the ethnic underclasses? Is this the era where the US is forced to be more honest about itself and face up to the fact that true multiculturalism means sharing - and sharing means sharing power even at the highest levels? Is it time for moderate Republicans to now marginalise that element of right wing hatred that fuelled the Tea Party and the partisanship of the last 4 years and embrace Romney's suggestion of dialogue with Obama? In short, is it time for America to grow up? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Wow! What a way to bring me down, MB. Obama did win, you know? quote: Perhaps but I don't know the specific history enough to comment on this. Yes, I know who Enoch Powell is but class relations in Britain and America have always given a slightly different taint to the conversation. What happened today is less a matter of demographics and more a matter of what defines a 'meritocracy'. The elected republicans and elected democrats are both in the same class here. They both have revolving doors. They both get insanely rich. Poor people can't apply. They can join the group though if they're young enough. quote: There's some of that, no doubt. But as far as I can tell, I don't see it being the motivating factor. Herman Cain's meteoric rise (and admittedly fall) seems to me a good counter example. What the question is/was about was whether those in power have a duty to help those who are not, about whether those who are intelligent and successful should care about those who are not. Hurricane Sandy/Hurricane Katrina is precisely the metaphor that seems to matter most here. quote: I don't think so. Again, is it there? Yes, but that doesn't seem to be that big a deal. What they hate is the sense of obligation that those on top should feel for those on the bottom. Shall we call it "noblesse oblige"? quote: Yes, that is the question but it's not based on race (in general). It is based on guilt and for finding reasons to avoid that guilt. quote: We can hope, can't we? We need a few republicans to break party ranks. That's the start. Will it happen? I don't know. Do I want it to happen? Yes. Why? Because I believe the country I was born in and still love depends on it. I want this to happen because I want the 21st century to be another American century. quote: I think we saw a little maturity today. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Heh Brad  Sorry about that - I woke up this morning and the first thing I clicked on was a right wing rant about the unfairness of the election! lol You are right! It's a great result, and does indeed show that America is changing slowly I think, in the right (or rather the left! lol) direction. I'll be back on your other points later. Indeed a great day for America and its people. Look forward to seeing Hilary in the White House in 4 years time |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
A great re-election. Only thing that annoyed me a bit was something near the end of Obama's speech "And together with your help and God's grace we will continue our journey forward and remind the world just why it is that we live in the greatest nation on Earth." Instead of putting a nice cherry a top his victory-speech, he put a bit of an arrogant turd on it  |
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Lady Goodman Member
since 2012-10-04
Posts 193 |
Ess? I truly wish I could remember the name of a children's story that has resonated with me for so long. In that story, a boy was lost from his mother, and as he begged for help, he kept describing her as "the most beautiful woman in the village." So as all the concerned villagers would, they brought on a parade of what they perceived to be the penultimate of beauty. "That's not my mother." <--I paraphrase. (of course) So finally, the tale ends with ALL of the women being brought forth, and a rather plain, stout woman, dressed very simply, was proven to be his mother as they were joyously re-united. (I'm sure you saw the ending coming, huh?) His mother was the most beautiful woman in the village because he loved her. I prefer to think it's like that when our politicians proclaim the U.S. the greatest nation. It's out of love and respect. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Karen and Ess You may be right Karen there may be a little of that. Problem is that the behaviour as perceived abroad of the "generic American" doesn't really project that metaphor. Maybe it is a little cliche but Americans abroad (just as some Brits abroad on occasion) are often seen as rather arrogant and forceful. You know the "we come from the greatest nation on the face of the earth and we darn well expect all you pesky foreigners to jump to and give us the best service". We've all seen it on comedy sketches, and comedy sketches aren't usually without a grain of truth. (Brits were the worst of all of course with our "Rule Brittannia" songs!) HOWEVER having said all that, it's not really been Obama's style to do the trumpet blowing nationalist bit. Personally I think most of his speech wasn't directed at the audience present, but rather at the white male population who didn't vote for him. He's going to try and reassure them that he IS American, that he does believe in the greatness of your country, and the values they believe in. You have one VERY intelligent guy for a President and I thik he's worked out that this next term HAS to be about reaching out, making compromises, or your country is going to go through a very painful period of segregation and maybe even a form of civil war. Notice early in the speech he made a reference to continuing to develop the Union or something like that. The job isn't complete yet by any means. Reb was right about the racist thing in the other thread, regrettably - and it's borne out in the voting stats. Obama knows he has to do something, and I think that speech was a small start. The man is truly great. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Perhaps you will be kind enough to show examples of that tea party hatred? Not innuendoes, not suppositions, but actual evidence of this hatred. It would be interesting to see you support that description. |
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Lady Goodman Member
since 2012-10-04
Posts 193 |
Excuse me Mike, if I ask Rob/Moonbeam to address this first? " Problem is that the behaviour as perceived abroad of the "generic American" I won't even tell you what that sounds like to me. I want you to explain it all to me. Word by word. And tell me what part of a misconception we are responsible for, especially when you precede my nationality by the term "generic"? What part of our election failed to escape your attention, Rob? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I'll answer Karen's first it's easier. Just copied and pasted from the first result when I googled "how are Americans perceived abroad": "Rude, loud, boastful Informal Extravagant and wasteful Disrespectful of authority Outgoing, friendly Sure they have all the answers Immature Racially prejudiced Hard-working Wealthy Generous Ignorant of other countries Always in a hurry Promiscuous" ........ Can I explain anything more Karen? Oh yes, what part of the misconception are you responsible for? Well all of it and none of it I guess ... about the same amount as the Brits are responsible for the fact that they are probably perceived as loud mouthed arrogant drunkards by many Spaniards! |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
"Perhaps you will be kind enough to show examples of that tea party hatred? Not innuendoes, not suppositions, but actual evidence of this hatred. It would be interesting to see you support that description." I don't have to go further than this forum over the last four years Mike. And no I don't propose to search for all the times I've seen Obama vilified here. Though Hitler comparisons and "boy" spring immediately to mind. Time to move on I think now. Time, as I said, for Republican moderates to embrace the idea that America is simply changing, and not, as Huan suggests in the other thread, being destroyed. " “What makes America exceptional are the bonds that hold together the most diverse nation on Earth … it doesn’t matter whether you’re black or white, or Hispanic or Asian, or Native American, or young or old, or rich or poor, abled, disabled, gay or straight — you can make it here in America if you’re willing to try.” But that poses a dilemma for Republicans, who largely saw older white voters line up behind Obama’s challenger Mitt Romney, some experts said. “The country’s changing and the people our party appeals to is a static group, and that is a recipe for extinction,” Republican consultant and analyst Mike Murphy told MSNBC this week." http://blogs.reuters.com/talesfromthetrail/2012/11/08/election-shines-light-on-long-path-to-post-racial-america/ |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Anyone who reads this and still thinks that Reb is wrong about the problems in the Republican party regarding racial prejudice, has a screw loose: "That works out to 88 percent of Romney voters being white. Using the same method, we find that 2 percent of Romney's voters were black, 6 percent were Latino, 2 percent were Asian, and 2 percent had some other ethnic classification. Obama's support was 56 percent white, 24 percent black, 14 percent Latino, 4 percent Asian, and 2 percent other. The white-run political press remained in denial about Romney's narrowly race-based candidacy right up to the end, mistaking the anomalies inside the white bubble for the general political climate. Thus in the final week before the election, the New York Times reported from Pennsylvania: [T]here is a tangible sense—seen in Romney yard signs on the expansive lawns of homes in the well-heeled suburbs, and heard in the excited voices of Republican mothers who make phone calls to voters in their spare time—that the race is tilting toward Mr. Romney. Obama won Pennsylvania by five points. Politico, meanwhile, raised white identity politics to self-parody, in a now-notorious Nov. 4 piece by Jim VandeHei and Mike Allen: If President Barack Obama wins, he will be the popular choice of Hispanics, African-Americans, single women and highly educated urban whites. That’s what the polling has consistently shown in the final days of the campaign. It looks more likely than not that he will lose independents, and it’s possible he will get a lower percentage of white voters than George W. Bush got of Hispanic voters in 2000. A broad mandate this is not. (For what it's worth, the white vote for Obama ended up being five percentage points higher than the Hispanic vote for Bush in 2000.) But white separatism was not enough to break up the actual Obama mandate. Obama's support was so broad that if white people had simply split 50-50, rather than favoring their ethnic candidate, the president would have won 58 percent of the popular vote. This was more than Bill O'Reilly could bear last night. Given exit polls and early returns pointing to Romney's defeat, O'Reilly made the racist assumptions of the losing side explicit: [I]t's a changing country, the demographics are changing, it's not a traditional America anymore. And there are 50 percent of the voting public who want stuff. They want things. And who is going to give them things? President Obama. He knows it and he ran on it. And, whereby, 20 years ago President Obama would have been roundly defeated by an establishment candidate like Mitt Romney. The white establishment is now the minority. And the voters, many of them, feel that this economic system is stacked against them and they want stuff. You're going to see a tremendous Hispanic vote for President Obama. Overwhelming black vote for President Obama and women will probably break President Obama's way. People feel that they are entitled to things and which candidate, between the two, is going to give them things? The white establishment, undone by hordes of various-colored people who demand stuff. Even as he admitted the white bloc was too small to win, O'Reilly still saw the winning side as an undifferentiated counter-bloc, rather than a coalition of Americans. Obama won the Latino vote, 71 to 27. He also won the Asian vote, 73 to 26. Those voters all look the same to the losers. That's why they're the losers." http://www.slate.com/article s/news_and_politics/scocca/2012/11/mitt_romney_white_voters_the_gop_candidate_s_race_based_monochromatic_campaign.html |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Lady I wish it were limited to being in that kind of spirit. It is one thing to speak in terms of yourself feeling your mother is the best in the world but quite another to imply that the whole world should acknowledge that she is. Obama used the word "remind", so apparantly we Canadians and other foreigners originally already knew that United States was the best nation in the world. They just got to work a lot harder to make sure we remember it Moonbeam, quote: He has done it before: quote: quote: quote: [From President in State of the Union Address] He has a lot of virtues as a president and as an inspiration to others. But I think it would do better not to promote that kind of tumor of arrogant and delusional thought in the US mentality. The United States is a great nation in many ways, but it has some of the worst economic problems and crime-rates in the world. It is far from a place that the whole world can acknowledge as "the greatest nation on earth". [This message has been edited by Essorant (11-08-2012 03:32 PM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
"He has done it before: quote:From the first railroads to the Interstate Highway System, our nation has always been built to compete. There's no reason Europe or China should have the fastest trains, or the new factories that manufacture clean energy products." Ess!! I think you are overreacting. What political leader doesn't try and push forward his country's achievements and potential. This isn't really vacuous boasting, this is encouragement imv. " quote:Well, I do not accept second place for the United States of America" Yes well I don't have the context, but again it's not exactly trumpet blowing stuff, or peculiar to the US. "quote:But here’s the thing — even if you doubt the evidence, providing incentives for energy-efficiency and clean energy are the right thing to do for our future -– because the nation that leads the clean energy economy will be the nation that leads the global economy. And America must be that nation." And here I have great sympathy for Obama. Let's face it Ess he's trying to drag a nation immersed in wasteful materialism onto a more environmentally responsible path. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
If I can paraphrase Brad here; there's really very little difference between American right-wing jingoism and left wing criticism of America when it gets it wrong. The right wing is saying America is the greatest nation, and the left wing is saying it SHOULD be. But what does Obama mean when he says that we should "show" the rest of the world? Does he mean to show the world that we're better than them? I don't think so. I think he means we show the world we're worthy of the mantle of world leader by acting responsibly, being the kind of neighbor and friend we should be. Not abusing military power. Not having the biggest piece of the pie to use for our interests alone, but to use our resources with good stewardship, so there is more for all. So that other nations can look at what we're doing and feel glad about it instead of intimidated. So that when we talk to some bad actors in the world about human rights they don't just look at us and say clean up your own mess. When I watched the opening ceremony of the Summer Olympics, besides being embarrassed by Romney's gaff tour, I was enthralled with the historic tableau, of the pride of culture and industry, healthcare, (although I was a bit befuddled Dr. Who didn't get a nod!) and I thought how fantastic it was, and how proud my friends across the pond had to be. I think they should think Great Britain is the greatest. There's a tiny burgh in Tennessee called Kenton. They celebrate two things at that wide spot in the road, Doodle Soup and white squirrels. Because that's what's unique about them. I hope the people who live there think it's the best place in America. More importantly though, I think it's the best place in the world to get Doodle soup and see a white squirrel. With great power comes great responsibility... I hope people around the world will come to feel we're responsible enough to deserve the great power we possess. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
So your answer to my question is....time to move on. I see. You really shouldn't make such statements unless you are prepared to back them up. Otherwise, they are just rants without validity. As far as what you have seen in this microscopic Alley, you will find a lot of anti-Obama rhetoric, but you will not find hatred. Try again..... |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I forgot to mention, the folks in Bradford Tennessee, about 15 miles from Kenton, think they're the doodle soup capital of the world too, and, they should!  |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Mike Fine if you want to call it bombastic and exaggerated rants against Obama in this forum (rather than “hate”) that’s fine by me. Google “hate, Obama and tea party republican” for a wider view. Back here in the forum in August 2009 Ron said: “if the hate and divisiveness weren't so in danger of ruining this country.” And you replied: “What is in danger of ruining this country is Obama's policies. The divisiveness will not be between Democrats and Republicans - It will be against the current administration and the people.” How wrong you were Mike, and how right was Ron. Anyway, like I say, perhaps we should stop dwelling on the vitriol that has been directed at Obama over the last 4 years. If you want to pretend it hasn’t happened I suppose that’s ok, although I do think that some Republicans would do well to learn from their mistakes for their own and their party’s future good. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
The US could do with more idealists like you Reb. I have no doubt that you accurately reflect what's in Obama's mind when he used word like "greatest nation". I don't have a problem with someone like Obama using phrases like that. When Palin or Rumsfeld do it I squirm. It's like I say Reb, the aura the "generic american" (I suppose, white male loud T shirt gum chewing big bucks big car big cheroot) makes people react badly when leaders appear to be fuelling that image. It may have little basis in truth, but that has been the image like it or not. As for the Summer Olympics, most of the opening ceremony was fine, and it's good for a nation to be proud of its roots I guess. But the NHS (medical section) was horrendous imv, far too long winded and overblown - there was something rather distastefully political going on there - I even kinda sympathised with poor Mitt. And actually after his speech the other night I find I rather like the guy. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Fine with me....if you don't want to dwell on the vitriol that has been directed at Obama, then don't call it hate unless you can back it up with something factual...that's all. You speak of hatred that fuelled the tea party...perhaps you can show any tea party actions that displayed hatred, then? You see, that's the problem. Throwing around statements like that not only don't make a point, they do not offer anything constructive to a conversation. |
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Lady Goodman Member
since 2012-10-04
Posts 193 |
You know, it's so unfair that I can't e mail you. I really didn't want to answer your , question in print, but I shall. Hmmm. What misconceptions am I responsible for? I'll just go ahead and say the first thing that popped into my slow lil haid...and that would be-- My own reputation, a reputation which seems to project some sort of sexual connotation, especially to YOU, Rob. There doesn't seem to be a single thing we can discuss that doesn't have some sort of sexual innuendo involved. And that's okay. I concede that I am responsible for my um, "colorful" reputation. In . other words, I started that nonsense and I can live with it. It's fine. Really.But trust that it IS a misconception. I shall be the second person to remind you, my dear and funny friend, that I also happen to be married. And it is a traditional monogamous relationship. And since I have always been one to offer too much personal information, I'll retain that spirit of my personality , and announce to the world that I am also celibate and have been for years. There. I've cleaned up perfectly bad reputation.  I apologize to the rest of you fine folk for going off topic yet again, but he DID ask me the question.  Continue on good people. There's already more alarming news to distract us from the dissection of the election and it's results and "what it all means." More bad weather on the East coast, Iran took a shoot at a U.S. drone aircraft over international waters, there have been not one, but two major earthquakes since election night, and on a personal note, our beloved kitty has been missing for over a week now. So somebody send me a note when and if anyone ever figures out what it all means. The election is over. It wasn't the nastiest election I've ever seen--not even close. But then, I've lived through some pretty interesting local elections as well. We came thisclose to electing a Nazi for governor here, so forgive me if I'm slightly amused, if not bemused by all of this. Love you guys, I do! <3 |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
"You know, it's so unfair that I can't e mail you. I really didn't want to answer your , question in print, but I shall. Hmmm. What misconceptions am I responsible for? I'll just go ahead and say the first thing that popped into my slow lil haid...and that would be-- My own reputation, a reputation which seems to project some sort of sexual connotation, especially to YOU, Rob. There doesn't seem to be a single thing we can discuss that doesn't have some sort of sexual innuendo involved." UH????? What the heck are you talking about Karen - lost you totally I'm afraid, lol. Sexual? You? What sex? This wan't about YOU anyway this was abaout a collective "you" as in the american people. Least that's what I was talking about. Really Karen I have no idea at all what you are saying here. I thought I just answered your question about how Americans might be perceived abroad and you start on at me for sexual references to you, lol. You'll have to elucidate, I don't follow you!? "But trust that it IS a misconception. I shall be the second person to remind you, my dear and funny friend, that I also happen to be married. And it is a traditional monogamous relationship." KAREN WTF are you talking about!?? LOL "And since I have always been one to offer too much personal information, I'll retain that spirit of my personality , and announce to the world that I am also celibate and have been for years. There. I've cleaned up perfectly bad reputation." Even more lost. Rarely have I felt so misunderstood. I assure you Karen, summat went badly wrong with our communication here Peace ... lots of it. xoxoxoxoxo |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I read back Karen. Is it the word "generic" that's the problem? ge·ner·ic (j-nrk) adj. 1. Relating to or descriptive of an entire group or class; general. See Synonyms at general. 2. Biology Of or relating to a genus. 3. a. Not having a brand name: generic soap. b. Of or being a drug sold under or identified by its official nonproprietary or chemical name. 4. Grammar Specifying neither masculine nor feminine gender: generic nouns like waitperson and executive. ...... I'm not going to get any sleep now thanks to you bad bad Karen, worrying that I said something wrong to you - I am such a sensitive person sigh |
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Lady Goodman Member
since 2012-10-04
Posts 193 |
Generic was the problem. It's not anymore. DIVERSITY seems to have been a problem for some. And don't go off on me like I'm crazy or something, you and I have been teasing each other for years now. I'm not upset about that. It was just an example of misconception. *smooch* and *grin* As for implications, or inference, I'll leave you with what I just watched on CNN. As if the dissection of this election wasn't enough, the speculation has already begun on the next election, and whether Hillary Clinton will make a bid for the Presidency. Not unheard of, that's been a speculation for years. But when asked by a reporter if she was running for the Presidency, she replied, "No. I'm not." Blitzer then teased that she hadn't said that she WILL not.  I'm going to watch the weather channel for news of our East Coast friends. I worry. I have enough trouble keeping up with what is going on NOW. And really, Rob, chill. I wasn't presuming you or anyone else had fantasies of me or anyone else. I was merely using the teasing fun that we have had for years now as something that could possibly be a misconception. Honestly, if Mitt Romney had a vote for every dominatrix reference (there were a number made in the old C/A forum) we'd be having a different conversation.  Or would we?  Now please, give us a friendly kiss, and ya'll get on with your conversation. I'm just catching a case of the *winces* as people seem to be performing an autopsy of The Republican Party, and I'm suffering from total overload as every expletive word is examined for malicious motives. It was a close race, and I thought it was a fairly civilized one at that. I'm just tired. Don't you guys ever get tired? G'nite lovie. (((<3))) |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
quote: I am not trying to make a big issue over it Moonbeam. I just mentioned it on the side because it annoyed me a bit, and responded further about it because Lady Goodman and you made further comments about it. Beyond that, I don't care that much about it. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Karen It's ok, I just couldn't work out where I'd put my foot in it this time, lol wasn't annoyed xox just puzzled I agree about over-analysing Rep motives - in any event I think the GOP are going to be far too busy working out the obvious Ess No problem |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “evidence of the rise in power of the ethnic underclasses?” I’ve mentioned it before, I was born in Germany of Polish parents who were at one time themselves slaves. We came over to America after WWII as part of a massive migration of Eastern Europeans; I guess in the same vein as “Hispanic” that would be “Slavic”. Were we an ethnic underclass? Did we not rise in power? . |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
My candidate for oxymoron of the year: "Moderate Republican" jimbeaux |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
It is unrealistic and drably egalitarian not to expect (and to some degree believe or celebrate in) the exclusive feeling of patriotism. The arrogance is not warranted. The conviction is ... especially if it is connected to a striving desire to become great through becoming a blessing to the world. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
The US can't afford to have such an ego anymore. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Because? . |
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