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Fast and Furious DoubleTalk |
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Balladeer
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Eric Holder Testifies Republicans To Blame For Fast And Furious by Ulsterman on November 8, 2011 Even by the often bombastic standards of duplicity that is the Obama administration, the Eric Holder testimony given before the Senate Judiciary Committee today sets a new standard of multiple misrepresentation of fact. What the nation saw – those who took the time to watch, was the Attorney General of the United States going on record and blaming Republicans in the House of Representatives for an operation that was initiated by, and for, the Obama administration. Holder also gave yet another strong push for enhanced federal gun control laws – a direct attempt to weaken the 2nd Amendment by using the tragedy and chaos created by the Obama Fast and Furious program as justification for those much stronger gun control measures. How can the Attorney General say that one political party, that itself controls only a part of Congress, and has no control over the Obama Executive Branch, is somehow more responsible for an Executive Branch program like Fast and Furious that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Mexican civilians and at least two American law enforcement agents? A program that saw the Obama Executive Branch directly involved in placing thousands of deadly assault weapons into the hands of known drug cartel criminals? http://theulstermanreport.com/2011/11/08/eric-holder-testifies-republicans-to-blame-for-fast-and-furious/ It's going to be VERY interesting to see how they spin this one! |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
http://ulster-man.blogspot.com/ http://writing.wikinut.com/The-Ulsterman-Report%3B/1t187u91/ |
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Balladeer
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Interesting!!! I know that it sounds so ridiculous that it's hard to believe. Let's see if this is a ficticious one or not. Thanks, Bob ![]() |
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Balladeer
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Testifying before an intensely partisan Senate Judiciary Committee hearing yesterday, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder only deepened suspicions about the Department of Justice’s possible criminal involvement in a gunwalking operation known as Operation Fast and Furious. The scheme saw the federal government provide more than 2,000 firearms to Mexico’s Sinaloa drug cartel. Holder presented the improbable case that he was not responsible for — or even aware of — the plot: "I have ultimate responsibility for that which happens in the Department, but I cannot be expected to know the details for every operation that is ongoing in the Justice Department on a day-to-day basis. I did not know about Fast and Furious as is indicated in the chart that you have up there until I guess, well, until it became public." Operation Fast and Furious was run primarily by the DOJ, but involved Obama administration officials spread across four Cabinet-level departments, and included direct links to the White House’s National Security Council. Attorney General Holder’s claim that he was ignorant of one of the most deadly political scandals in U.S. history, which was run out of his department with key input and the understanding of his top lieutenants, is simply not credible. Holder used his opening statement to shift the blame to the American gun dealers — whom his Department forced to supply weapons to the cartels — and Congress: “Unfortunately, earlier this year the House of Representatives actually voted to keep law enforcement in the dark when individuals purchase multiple semi-automatic rifles and shotguns in Southwest border gun shops,” Holder’s written testimony declares. “Providing law enforcement with the tools to detect and disrupt illegal gun trafficking is entirely consistent with the constitutional rights of law-abiding citizens and it is critical to addressing the public safety crisis on the Southwest border.” It took considerable gall for Holder to make that allegation against Congress: the long-gun reporting requirement he mentioned was suggested by the Department of Justice to combat a problem that they had created with Operation Fast and Furious. As contentious as the hearing became between Holder and several of the minority Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee, the Senate’s majority Democrats were almost seditiously uninterested in finding out anything about the plot. Senators Diane Feinstein (D-CA) and Chuck Schumer (D-NY) dishonestly claimed that the plot was an extension of the Bush-era Operation Wide Receiver. It most decidedly was not, and Holder himself refuted that connection. Judiciary Committee Chairman Senator Patrick Leahy (D-VT) and Feinstein argued that the plot — in which the government forced firearms dealers to give weapons to criminals — justified more gun-control laws. And in a surreal moment, Senator Al Franken (D-MN) decided the occasion was a wonderful time to discuss the bullying of gay schoolchildren. http://pjmedia.com/blog/holder-plays-dumb-dems-push-gun-control/?singlepage=true hmmm....looks like maybe Ulstermann knew what they were talking about. |
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Uncas Member
since 2010-07-30
Posts 408 |
quote: Not from what I've read. quote: This is an out and out lie Mike and it isn't particularly hard to prove, all you need to do is listen to, or read, Holder's testimony. . |
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Balladeer
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Eric Holder Testifies Republicans To Blame For Fast And Furious by Ulsterman on November 8, 2011 - Ulsterman quote Holder used his opening statement to shift the blame to the American gun dealers — whom his Department forced to supply weapons to the cartels — and Congress: “Unfortunately, earlier this year the House of Representatives actually voted to keep law enforcement in the dark when individuals purchase multiple semi-automatic rifles and shotguns in Southwest border gun shops,” Holder’s written testimony declares. - pjmedia quote Hmmm....blaming it on the Republican-run House sure sounds like he's blaming it on the Republicans to me, which is what Ulsterman indicated. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Unless there is some extra-constitutional way that a Republican majority House vote can create a law all by itself, without that pesky Democratic majority Senate, and ultimately the Kenyanazi Presidents 'barry o' written on it, it would hardly make sense.... But then, pajamas media so rarely does. But that's no obstacle to a Republican talking point. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
How about finding some references in magazines or newspapers that most of us can agree have substantial and deserved reputations? That would be one way around the impasse. There are conservative magazines, English and American that seem to fit that general profile; and there are also newspapers and magazines that Mike and others have used that they've felt have made some necessary points for them that haven't necessarily been conservative, but have still presented news in a straightforward enough version to be satisfactory for them. If their point of view can't be supported by either unbiased or biased but meticulous sources, then making such assertions might be worth rethinking. I don't mean that the assertions made without such support have to be wrong. I mean that they haven't found adequate support as yet to be considered as more than attempts to smear political opponents. If there are solid facts, assert those facts. I want to know about them, even if they are against the interests of my party. My party can take care of itself. The truth often needs a bit of advocacy. I don't mind coming out against a war in Libya if I believe the facts stack up against it; and I'll consider the facts as presented. I'll quarrel with people in my party if I think it's necessary. But I won't do it for stuff from a source I don't believe or that I think doesn't have its facts straight. |
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Uncas Member
since 2010-07-30
Posts 408 |
quote: You sound like the majority of the mainstream media Mike, throwing in disclaimers like 'sounds like', 'might', 'could' and 'maybe'. The question is fairly straightforward, did Holder say that Republicans were responsible for the 'gun walking' operation in his opening statement or not? quote: Or you could just go back to the source Bob - back to what Holder actually said. . |
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Balladeer
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Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Unless there is some extra-constitutional way that a Republican majority House vote can create a law all by itself, without that pesky Democratic majority Senate, and ultimately the Kenyanazi Presidents 'barry o' written on it, it would hardly make sense.... Yep, that's the point. It makes litle sense at all. Of course, Holder claiming he knew nothing about it makes little sense, either. Napolitano claiming she never discussed it with Holder, even after the border agent was killed, makes even less sense. Blaming the House for passing a law makes no sense as well as condemning the House for not passing laws makes none, wither. Little about Holder's actions make sense, with the indisputable fact that anyone with half a brain knows he's been lying, whether they care to acknowledge it or not. Yes, Bob, shooting the messenger is always an easy thing to do, especially when that messenger is not part of the mainstream media. Believe me, I would be happy to get mainstream's take on it. Problem is, they avoid anything detrimental to the administration like the plague. Imagine, if you will, F&F being conducted by a republican administration. It would be daily front page news, condemning all involved. SInce it's Obama's, it barely gets a mention back on page 30 or something and almost nothing on the nightly news. Let them start actually covering news as journalists, and I'll be happy to quote them. |
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Balladeer
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Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Unfortunately, earlier this year the House of Representatives actually voted to keep law enforcement in the dark when individuals purchase multiple semi-automatic rifles and shotguns in Southwest border gun shops. ....Uncas link Sounds to me like it's the same thing my " unreliable" links said. The only thing Holder said about F&F was that it was "flawed"...no details, no definition, no claim of knowledge of it, nothing. The rest of his speech had nothing to do with it and was nothing more than self back patting, especially proud of the administration going after rogue states trying to pass their own immigrations laws to enforce the laws the national government chooses to ignore. When fighting your own states becomes a happy focal point of your accomplishments, you have a problem. It's basically the same statement the administration has been sending out since Obama took over....do it our way and don't cross us or we will either come after you or simply ignore you and not enforce what you feel is in your best interests. Take a bow, Holder. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: There's no blaming or condemning here Mike. Holder merely points out the tools the ATF says it needs vs the inconsistency of congressional actions toward meeting those goals. Is there some reason Holder shouldn't point that out? |
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Balladeer
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Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Is there some reason why there should NOT be blaming or condemning? The thing was badly run, botched up and people died. Of course, it would be hard for Holder to condemn since he's involved. Much safer to just say, "Let's not waste time laying blame...". It's all partisan...again. There would have been all kinds of blaming and condemning with a republican at the helm...believe it. Unfortunately, earlier this year the House of Representatives actually voted to keep law enforcement in the dark when individuals purchase multiple semi-automatic rifles If that's not blaming, then why did he mention it? Do you think he would have made that statement if it had been a senate vote instead of House? |
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Uncas Member
since 2010-07-30
Posts 408 |
quote: Yes it does 'sound like' that Mike but only if you completely ignore the context of the statement. Fortunately anyone who reads the full statement can see that the claim that Holder tried to blame the Republicans for the 'gun walking' operation isn't true. . |
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Balladeer
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Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
No, he blamed the House for passing laws which made creating something like Fast and Furious necessary. Time for a little FOREplay. Hopefully my swing will not be fast and furious today...see ya ![]() |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Thats the germane passage Mike, (Unc, too little of it doesn't quite tell the whole truth? ![]() |
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Uncas Member
since 2010-07-30
Posts 408 |
quote: Doesn't it? quote: I think we'd agree that this is generally true, we could argue the point of whether the outcome of the vote was unfortunate or not but the central point - that the house voted against a bill that would help the ATF - is a verifiable truth. It only becomes less of a truth when some idiot writes an article claiming that the statement is evidence that Holder blamed the Republicans for the 'gun walking' operation. Oh! Almost forgot - here's a bumper sticker slogan for you LR. The Republicans should be blamed for gun walking! ![]() |
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Balladeer
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The question is...should they be blamed tor gun running and being stupid enough not to put tracking devices in the guns? |
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Uncas Member
since 2010-07-30
Posts 408 |
quote: The Republicans? Yes, if you insist that the Democrats are to blame for 'gun walking' then the Republicans are equally to blame. . |
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Balladeer
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Maybe you should double check that last reply, not that your laying it on the right's door surprisesme. |
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Uncas Member
since 2010-07-30
Posts 408 |
quote: I don't need to double check it Mike, I checked the facts twice before I replied. quote: I wasn't laying it at anyone's door Mike I simply pointed out that if the Democrats are to blame for gun walking, as you suggested, then according to your own logic the Republicans are to blame for the gun walking that began in 2006. . |
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Uncas Member
since 2010-07-30
Posts 408 |
quote: We don't need to imagine Mike, gun walking was conducted under a Republican administration. Was it daily front-page news? Was it even on page 30? . |
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Balladeer
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Not ignoring you, uncas, but it's hard to research on my cellphone between shots. Be back later |
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Uncas Member
since 2010-07-30
Posts 408 |
No rush Mike. Internet conversations are like postal chess, nobody expects an immediate reply. ![]() |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: And here you were spot on. Cherry picking without the anchor of context makes it easy to sell the lie to Mike. I can't really find the point behind this particular instance though. It's like the right wing message machine woke up that morning without any prepared material and this was the best cavill they could use to try to keep a focus on the story. It doesn't 'do' anything to Holder or the administration even if true. |
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Balladeer
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You are right, LR. It doesn't do anything to Holder at all. It's just a Ripley's moment. There will be plenty of other bullets for Holder to dodge...and he better have a better shield than "blame the republicans!" |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Uncas, I don't know what you double-checked but there are many reports that the Bush plan had tracking devices in the weapons while F&F did not. Also, the guns under the Bush plan were tracked while the F&F guns were not. One Bush-era program, Operation Wide Receiver, was conducted from 2006 to 2007 and oversaw the sale of about 350 firearms to known and suspected straw buyers for Mexican drug cartels. Under Operation Fast and Furious, thousands of firearms were sold to known and suspected straw buyers for Mexican drug cartels. http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/192385-dems-try-to-turn-tables-on-fast-and-furious 1. Wide Receiver was less than one-quarter the size of Fast and Furious, involving about 500 guns. About 450 guns made it across the border into Mexico. Not only was Fast and Furious much larger, but it was only one of several gun walking operations launched by the Obama Administration. In fact, intrepid CBS reporter Sharyl Attkisson says she has “found allegations of gun walking in at least 10 cities in five states.” 2. Unlike the Obama Administration programs, there actually was a serious attempt made to track the Wide Receiver weapons. Some of them were fitted with radio tracking devices. The cartel gun buyers figured out how to defeat the tracking system by driving around in circles, until the tracking planes ran out of fuel and were forced to return to base. Also, some of the tracking devices were damaged when ATF agents improperly inserted them into the guns. By contrast, one of the signature features of Obama gun walking is that absolutely no effort to track the guns was ever in place. ATF agents have testified they were expressly ordered to stand down when they tried to follow the cartel straw purchasers. Whatever mistakes were made in Operation Wide Receiver, there’s no way to argue that Operation Fast and Furious was not much worse… because they should have learned from what happened in Wide Receiver. http://gunfreezone.net/wordpress/index.php/2011/10/10/csgv-finally-speaks-about-fast-furios-and-screws-it-up/ Regarding the fallout from Fast and Furious, Holder said that "unfortunately, we will feel its effects for years to come as guns that were lost during this operation continue to show up at crime scenes both here and in Mexico." Several ATF agents have testified that they were ordered by superiors to let suspected straw buyers walk away from Phoenix-area gun shops with AK-47s and other weapons believed headed for Mexican drug cartels, rather than arrest the buyers and seize the guns there. The goal was to track the guns to trafficking ring leaders who long had escaped prosecution. ATF lost track of some 1,400 of the more than 2,000 weapons whose purchases attracted the suspicion of the Fast and Furious investigators. http://news.yahoo.com/holder-regrets-misleading-fast-furious-letter-162809913.html |
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