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Enough said...and not by an American...
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Enough said...and not by an American... |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart 
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...but a Patriot at heart, and I would take him into my home in a minute minute! God bless this human....as only God could. http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/pat-condell-on-gro und-zero-mosque-is-it-possible-to-be-astonished-but-not-surprised.html I am amused by the detractors of his statements. They run rampant...and I can only guess that so many of them live here...in the U.S. |
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| © Copyright 2010 Karilea Rilling Jungel - All Rights Reserved | |||
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I completely agree, K... |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Thank you! |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I couldn't agree more, Karilea. Thank you for sharing this. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I got about two minutes into it. About to the point where he claimed 911 could never have happened except for the teachings of Islam? As if 911 was the only atrocity ever committed in this world? Or even the worst? That's when I clicked off. I don't have time to waste on ignorance and prejudice. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I've heard this bloke beore - he's a hard atheist stand-up comedian with a penchant for attacking religion and the religious. Richard Dawkins thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread and he writes poetry. I should like him - but I don't. "Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings" Robert Zimmerman So true Bob.. so true. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Condell http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3gerx_pat-condell-hello-angry-christians_shortfilms |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
I appreciate all viewpoints. Thank you! |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
In one of his videos I watched, he mentioned something about the religion/God you believe in now might be the one you condemn had you been born in a different part of the world. |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
 and sitting on my hands. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Why, Mysteria? |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
That man makes a living off of getting reactions just as he now has, and I don't have much to say about someone who makes money from being sensationalistic, and spreading prejudice. I find them toxic, and they are not the kind of people I can even respect, let alone promote. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Aw, Kari... I'm sorry to be so predictably disagreeable--it's just that I think that to deny the right of any religion a place of worship would conflict with the principles upon which The United States was founded. Mysteria is correct. The guy's a sensationalist and unworthy of your attentions. I happen to believe that the existence of this mosque will not weaken the image of our nation's ideals around the world--I think it underscores the strength that it takes to maintain the integrity of our foundations.  |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
And I'm learning more all of the time. I do appreciate everyone's input. Thank you! |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Interesting comment, Ron. If one were to say that the Crusades wouldn't have happened without the teachings of Christianity, would it be any different? Just curious... |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
I listened to the whole thing. I thought it was well constructed, clever and hate-filled. Freedom of Religion has been a very difficult piece of the constitution for us for a very long time. Franklin said that he would welcome the building of Mosques in this country, which suggests he may have taken his freedom of religion with a fair amount of seriousness. We are also apt to rewrite our own history in our heads. FDR said to Harry Hopkins that the United States was a Christian Nation and that the Jews were here as a sort of tolerated minority. As an FDR fan, that was not one of my favorite FDR moments. Great Britain does have a state religion, and they have a splendid history of religious prejudice and rage to go with it. Protestants barbecued Catholics and, under Mary, there was a certain amount of reciprocation. Everybody was very serious about it. Within the Protestant denominations, there was a certain amount of this sort of stuff as well. Puritans were not thought of as wonderful folks by the majority of Englishmen, and you can see a fairly brutal caricature of one in Shakespeare's [i]Twelfth Night[i ]in the form of Malvolio. The United States puts demands on its citizens that other countries don't. These are set forward in the constitution. We tend to think of them as Freedoms, because they are freedoms as well. My freedom to practice my religion makes it my Responsibility to help supply you the Freedom to practice your religion. The same set of laws apply to all of us, so that if your religion demands human sacrifice, you are still governed by laws limiting murder. The doctrinal fine points I suspect we are supposed to work out amongst ourselves. We don't arrest Christians for taking communion, no matter how firmly they believe they are literally partaking of the flesh of Christ, and Muslims don't get arrested for striving for perfection within themselves as long as this greater meaning of the word Jihad doesn't lap over into taking violent action against other people in ways that manifest themselves in the quotidian world. We are supposed to be able to keep our understanding of the physical and spiritual straight, and understand where it is permissible to display the physical. The law is for those who are not able to maintain this distinction. There are fools who cannot tell the difference between the violence of a physical jihad and the effort necessary to help one maintain the spiritual discipline of a demanding faith. There are also fools who are confused by a crusade for spiritual advancement and a violent attempt to take other people's land. Both kinds of fools exist on both sides of the religious divide. The Muslims have right to build a Mosque in this country anywhere they can purchase land and where they are not otherwise breaking the law. Any other religious group does as well. In this country, they don't need to pass a popularity contest, they simply need to maintain a standard of legal behavior, and, judging from the activities of many of our other religious groups, not a very high standard at that. It's one of the things that makes Americans odd in the rest of the world. I mean odd in a good way. Hating this aspect of American life is also traditional. We go back a long way hating Catholics and Jews and Mormons; and all sorts of Protestants have disliked each other. It's Mom and Apple Pie to our culture. It always makes an attempt to sound rational, too, like the anti-catholicism I remember from the election of 1960, where the local (Canton, Ohio) Republican Buzz was that we couldn't elect a Catholic president, because he'd be taking orders from Rome. It made sense to me when I was a kid and didn't understand the history of political defiance to Rome's attempts to run local politics. Freedom of Religion is better. And this speaker is a very angry man who makes a well spoken case for putting aside the Freedom of Religion clause in the bill of rights. I don't think it's enough. There are always people who hate something about the constitution, but it takes a better case than this one to convince me to set it aside. Actually, he doesn't even mention the constitution, does he? Perhaps he thinks it isn't important enough to bring up. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
No, Mike, it wouldn't be any different at all. Not unless you believe the Catholic popes who encouraged (I'm being kind) the Crusades encompass all of Christianity? It's not a bad comparison in some respects, though. Pope Urban II endorsed the First Crusade in 1095 when the Byzantine emperor requested mercenaries after getting his butt kicked and losing most of what is now Turkey. Like the extremists of today, the whole thing was far more political than religious. Religion is almost always an excuse for violence, not a reason. That's as true today as it was a thousand years ago. I suspect it was true when we were still dragging our knuckles on the ground, too. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"Apparently it's not enough that nearly three thousand innocent people had to lose their lives in a hideous act of religious mass murder, but now their memory has to be insulted as well, and the religion that murdered them allowed to build a towering, triumphalist mosque on the ground where they died." "I'm not even American, but it makes me sick to my stomach to think that Islam is going to be allowed anywhere near Ground Zero" Religion is a choice, unlike something such as race, but I don't see how this is much different from the kind of misled thinking that results in racism: it is basically blaming the religion instead of the terrorism itself or treating the religion as if it is the terrorism, just as people may treat a race as if it is to blame for this or that because people of that race were involved in the crime. Very saddening and disappointing to see that kind of mentality. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Ron, the instigation, planning and execution of the acts are political but the foot soldiers, the crusaders do not fight for the politics of it, they fight for the religion the politicians use as motive. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Essorant? Lately there's just something about you that mellows me out. I have some friends from the Middle East, and they are so skittish, too. Well, most of 'em. There's this one guy that's just a big jolly joy, just because he's happy to be here. He told me that other people have treated him as guilty by association, not even questioning the fact that he considers himself a refugee, exiled from his homeland...he condemned the actions of The Taliban and relgious extremists and risked his life to come here--just as many have before him. Have a hug, Ess. You must have some kinda neutralizing pheremones for me lately. *chuckle*  |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Interesting point Mike, but if taken to its logical conclusion then surely we shouldn’t be building Churches either because Christians do bad things too. . |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: And were it not religion, Mike, it would just be something else. Maybe nationalism, masquerading as patriotism? One might as well argue that Nagasaki or the Trail of Tears could never have happened except for the teachings of Jefferson and those other 55 guys. There is nothing in the Koran, the Bible, or the Declaration of Independence that makes people treat other people atrociously. Those just happen to be really convenient excuses for really bad behavior. It's not about Muslim nature, Mike, any more than it's about American nature. Sadly, it's all just Human nature. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
No, Ron, I don't think it's about Muslim nature, either. I'll confess I don't know a lot about the Koran but it seems that an abridged version dictates, in for us or against us style, that non-believers be killed. That version seems to be the one suicide bombers follow (especially since it's also the one promising the virgins). |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I might buy into that, Mike, if the only suicide bombers in history were all Muslims. However, your suggestion makes it difficult to explain the Kamikaze pilots of WWII. Or the men who just as surely committed suicide at the Alamo. Or countless others throughout history who willingly gave their all because someone convinced them it was the "right thing to do." |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
When your enemies get to write your abridged version — and your enemies will always get to write your abridged version; they make sure of it and you're human enough to help them — you will always look like an evil genius to the people predisposed to dislike you, and to many people who would ordinarily be neutral. This is true even when you're God, in case you hadn't noticed. When you're another religion, it's even worse. To complicate matters, there really are authentically evil people in the world, though, as Jung says, they aren't as common as you might think. My opinion is that they're fairly evenly distributed amongst the peoples of the world, just as the really great folks are. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2054258/posts |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Interviews With Peter Hammond I knew saving this link would come in handy one day. I especially like the Nelson Mandela interviews. You can see what a "devout Christian" this man is, and just as he stands up for his beliefs, and his "God," so do others with a strong belief in their faiths, non-faith, or their "way of life." I have been following this man for some time due to his thoughts on anti-abortion. It is all just so simple really. What we have to do is simply starting finding our similarities, instead of through ignorance, or fear, finding our differences. We are just so lucky to have freedom come to us in so many forms, and still each day we abuse it. Religion will always be a good excuse for dissension between men and nations to create wars, and divide us. Until greed of money and power are lessened instead of being shared, and our indifference and fear takes second place to understanding,or sharing and loving our fellow man replaces turning our backs on each other, places like this "Alley," and all the other allies out there on the internet feeding and fueling this propaganda to the innocent out there will continue to flourish. The more you read, the more you realize it is all just words, just words. One day we are simply going to wake up and realize what we have become and what we have done to ourselves. I have seen and personally know devout Catholics who move abroad, and simply cast away a life time of their religion, for the one that appealed to them where they now lived, forsaking all else. It happens all the time. It is a matter of geography. Back on topic: Did anyone ever check to see the money the City of New York would make from the new Muslim Mosque? We had one built where I used to live, and the residents fought that to for months at City Hall, but now that it is up and running, they sing the praises of all the money that community now brings into the neighbourhood. Go figure right? They all managed to get along and live together, and still are doing it very well. I think getting all this CRAP out there before an election in the US is good marketing, but at what expense? If everyone, and I mean everyone, got behind the current administration NOW and became part of the solution instead of the problem, it may help a country seriously in need of some unity, but that is just my opinion. You will get another chance to do this all over again soon enough I suppose. I am certainly no great brilliant mind that is for sure, but I do know one thing for certain that my grandmother taught me, "you can get more with honey than you do with vinegar!" That simple rule can apply to anything, big or small in our life. Just my thoughts on a Saturday afternoon folks. I wish it were all just that simple. We must use time wisely and forever realize that the time is always ripe to do right. Nelson Mandela |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Thanks for sharing the videos, Sharon. I admire Dr. Hammond's faith, his pro-life stand for the protection of the pre-born, as well as his speaking out against the evils of marxism, socialism and communism due to the hundreds of thousands who have suffered deprivation of human rights and been killed under those systems in history. They could build the mosque anywhere else in the city they wish if the City of New York wants their money so badly. Many see their site selection and grand opening date as a particular affront to the sensibilities of those who have suffered so much from the attacks there and ask why. They don't need to build it there, nor open on that date. They know the pain that they are causing and still plan to move forward with their plans. Not very considerate or loving, in my opinion. Unity at what price? The majority in this country don't believe that this current administration has the right solutions and won't get behind it for the sake of unity at the expense of its deeply held convictions. This administration and Congress have shown non-stop for a year and a half now that they have a blatant disregard for, and no intention of listening to, the will of the people they supposedly serve. Unity is not a one-way-street. Unity is not a goal in and of itself. Unity is a byproduct of mutual respect. |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Just to set the record straight, as I was unclear I guess. I do not agree with Peter Hammond on anything much really. I like to read about people with an opposite view than I myself have, that is all really. It's good to read both sides. [This message has been edited by Mysteria (07-10-2010 10:19 PM).] |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
The biggest difference I see between the Canadian mosque and the one proposed at Ground Zero is that the Canadian one wasn't being built on what many consider sacred ground, being where their loved ones died such a horrific death. Why were they protesting it so vehemently? The only reason I see for the protest of this project in NY is the site chosen and the date chosen for the grand opening. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Is the same Peter Hammond you’re talking about, the Peter Hammond who took his wife and four children out to shoot paint balls at trick or treating children, the same Peter Hammond who “quickly drove away” after his son hit another child in the face with a paint ball injuring him? “Controversial pro gun campaigner and ardent Christian evangelist Peter Hammond stated that he was charged with assault after organizing an anti-Halloween paintball gun shooting spree.” ... “He has also been accused of gun- running for rebels in Sudan, and of assisting the Renamo movement when it was fighting a South African-backed civil war against Mozambique's Frelimo government in the apartheid years.” http://www.gunslot.com/blog/paintball-gun-spree-pastor-targeted-halloween-kids “And sent him homeward, Tae think again” |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Ooops, I see you've edited your post and deleted the part about the protests being the same thing as happened with the Canadian mosque. I see a big difference unless you had the same situation with site and date issues. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Well that was certainly a stupid thing for him to do with the paint balls, I agree. But I don't have a problem with him helping to fight against communism or working to protect the unborn. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Protecting fetuses but shooting at children and running away after they've been wounded. What kind of "Christian" does something like that? . “And sent him homeward, Tae think again” |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Have to wonder how many pre or post born were killed with the guns he helped supply. How can a person possibly be "pro-life" if they encourage their own children to assault others and provide arms that kill? “Controversial right-wing Christian leader and pro-gun lobbyist, the Rev Peter Hammond, has been arrested and charged with treason and insurrection in Sudan, according to his Frontline Fellowship organisation.” http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?sf=1&set_id=1&click_id=68&art_id=ct20020410232557138S350799 . “And sent him homeward, Tae think again” |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Jennifer: quote: This is quite an inconsistency in his own web of views isn't it? The problem with this kind of statement is that it could be said of any view religious or otherwise. The ideology you believe in right now might be the one you condemn had you been born in a different part of the world. Of course there's some post-modern truth to this, in that many are blind followers, and that everyone is so entwined with their culture that pure objectivity is impossible. And yet, there are still those who are critical of their own gods, demons, or nations ... embracing something else entirely. It also misses the fact that religions, like ideologies, really are different in content, and may be analyzed and judged based on that propositional content. It's just hard to see something for what it really is, from an inch away, or from the other side of the planet for that matter. Stephen |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I don’t know if it’s an inconsistency or not, Stephen, it’s just something that jumped out at me, something I’d thought about many times myself. |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
I did edit my post about the protest in New York and the protest about our mosque here. They can't compare. The people up here were just afraid, and looked at every single Muslim walking our streets like they were a terrorist, or the ones who bombed New York. Fear does that to you sometimes, clouds our good judgment. Most of the Muslims were born in Canada, and therefore Canadian Muslims, and deserved the right to their freedom of religion. The mosque in New York is opening old wounds that are raw and circumstances are totally different. I can't even pretend to understand how "those" people feel. It is unfathomable to me the pain suffered to friends and family of those killed. The only thing I can understand is that moving forward is always progress. Those folks are mostly American Muslims in New York, and if you read the articles, second generation American Muslims, who only want the same rights as anyone else - Freedom Of Religion. However strange, they see it as extending an olive branch. We will see if it gets built. I found this article interesting: Illume - New York Protest |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I'm wondering how far away the proposed mosque would actually be from Ground Zero. Read some where it was two blocks, but I have no idea how big a block is in NYC. Tried Google maps and it looked like a little less than half a mile but I'm not good at that sort of thing so I could be way off. Is the mosque actually going to be visible from Ground Zero or will there be other buildings blocking view of it? I think it's a risky thing to do, it's sort of like asking for trouble. Lots of loose cannons on the streets of New York. Out of concern for the safety of those who would use the facility, I might give it a rethink. But I guess they own the building now, so maybe that's why they chose that particular location? Tough call. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
I'm going to hijack my own thread. I believe I'm allowed to do so. First of all, I'm going to apologize for the following: 1. For not reading about or doing research on and/or doing a thorough background of an individual who strikes me favorably, even if from a forwarded email from a trusted friend; 2. And I will probably never again [note, probably] base an Alley thread on an emotional front; 3. Nor will I ever post a thread in the Alley without giving it more than an emotional basis; i.e., thinking it through [note the difference from above]; 4. Nor will I give my PiP friends the idea that I might be insensitive [when speaking from the heart on basically and only on one point, especially when I didn't consider how the rest of the message might hit them] For you see, I am not an intolerant jerk who doesn't believe that all religions might not coincide and reside by one another peacefully - it could be done, it can be done...respectfully, with consideration and tolerance and understanding. Ironically, I have been learning from this thread. I thought I had posted this commentary strictly as a kudo to someone I admit I do not know, but to which I will admit to admiring his one point in fact, of the building of anything over Ground Zero, which bothered me greatly. Still, I didn't take into consideration the other points that he was making, and that could be considered, "my bad". However, I did listen to the entire feature and didn't turn it off in the middle or near middle or the first two minutes. I listened all the way through. My bad was in not thinking it through all the way on how it would affect everyone on this site, and most particularly those folk who frequent the Alley. I actually thought I might be doing a service. You see, I'm still greatly distressed, personally, by the ill manners we, as a nation, portrayed to the American Native decades ago, and on many levels. I am only "native American" by way of generational progression. I am a Heinz 57 variety human. There is so much about my own heritage I can't point out, but God Bless the US, should I run for government, I'm pretty sure there would be a whole slew of folk out there who could factor in my heritage that I would either be worthy, or not, of running for office. That being said, I won't apologize for posting the link. I will apologize, however, if I offended anyone from my short-sightedness of not researching the speaker, his origins, his right for saying what he wants to say, and that alleged fact that he may be an atheist is not yet something I've researched, but if some of you say so? Well, then, it could probably be true. What I will stick by to, like oatmeal on a spoon, is the thought in this day and age of a ceremonial site being given over to any church/religion. It is the City of New York's site, and yes, I guess they, with the factors and politicians who are governing the city, well, they can do as they please, but it strikes me wrong that any New Yorker who considers themselves an American who suffered such a slaughter should allow ANY faction, religious or otherwise, to park their butts over this monument of loss. I know for a fact that various American Indian sites that have been showcased as an archeological site over the more insensitive years have been closed down. I live very close to such a site. Very close. To those who might have thought for a brief moment that I don't tolerate all religions, please know that the brief instant you thought that was my error in my wording in the original post. It was my point, although not briefed well, that nothing other than a remembrance to those lost on that site, should be the only building of monuments erected. Now, if I can just have a quick swift kick in the behind if I ever again ignore the rules I set above for myself from any of my friends before I ever post in the Alley again, I give you my profuse thanks ahead of time. Not that I won't post...but I will make sure I do my research ahead of time. Thank you. P.S. I also noted, just before I posted this thread, that some folk among us are now actually thinking how this link might have hit me... And I thank them for posting their thoughts. [This message has been edited by Sunshine (07-11-2010 12:01 AM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
We're not supposed to be emotional in here?  The word passion is in the very name of this place, and try as I might, I still don't know how to get to passion without emotion. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Ahh, my friend...I do get emotional about certain things...and don't always have my head above and/or out of my otherwise wide behind. But I do try.To be sensible, and sensitive, that is.  |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I just made Chicken Lo Mein with Ramen noodles. That has nothing to do with anything, but I just thought I'd add that. *laughing* Oh. And I tried some of that Sunshine stuff. I think my eyeballs are peeling. (Sorry for the hijack of the thread, but that guy has been getting wayyyy too much press.)  |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
You're more than welcome.... |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Christians I think should be the last ones to stereotype Islam so wrongly. Have they not faced enough stereotypes of their religion and their book, based on misconceptions and examples of abuse/malpractice of Christianity? It is much hypocrisy if they will turn around and commit the same thing on Muslims that they have complained about being done to them. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
And you just reminded me of something, Sis Serene One... This is exactly why my folks taught me, "never talk about 'Sex, Politics, or Religion' in the presence of company." They never told me about what might happen when doing it in the midst of .... Family! |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
quote: Thanks Serenity  If I can recognize misled thoughts/confusion, it is because I have struggled with so much of my own! Thankfully discussing things as reasonably as possible at this site has helped me overcome them much over the years. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
It's just..cumulative despair. I'd sigh, but every time I exhale, something else happenss. |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Jennifer, the location of the proposed Cordoba Center and mosque is in the old Burlington Coat Factory on Park Place. They bought that building in 2009. Go to Google maps, and type in 45 Park Place to Ground Zero. It is not all that close really in distance, but only close in too many other ways. Kari, I can't tell you the number of times I "jumped the gun" as it were, and posted something I thought was just wonderful, Later I would find out it was not all that great. You are certainly not alone in having done it, and surely won't be the last. Oh goodie, I have time to put a link in here again If you have time also have a read of The Downtown Express link on that page, as it says a lot.Cordobian Initiative Article |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Ground zero is already being built on. Construct has been going on for a while now. I believe the buildings are mostly office buildings, but much more solidly built than before, and there have been momument and memorial spaces reserved on that site. Nobody is interested in forgetting 9/11 as far as I know. I know I'm not. But there are protections on Freedom of Religion, and I am alarmed at how quickly those protections are forgotten or how quickly we are willing to put them aside. I suspect there were people of every faith lost in the World Trade Center explosions, including Muslims. Muslims have a right to have a place of worship of their own, especially in a country that says that it respects freedom of religion. Same as anybody, if they break any laws there, charges should be brought. But there is no need to assume that laws will be broken any more than one would make that assumption about a Quaker Meeting Hall or a Catholic Church. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
The building in question was one that was involved, if peripherally, in the 9/11 attacks. An engine from one of the jets landed in it during the explosive impacts with the World Trade Center. No one wishes to deny the Muslims their right to worship. They have mosques all over New York City, as well as across the country where they freely worship. The bone of contention arises with their selection of this particular site to build a mega mosque/cultural center in conjunction with the date they have chosen for the grand opening celebration. I think their assertion that they are doing it to symbolically offer and olive branch rings hollow when they defiantely forge ahead with their plans knowing the agony they are causing to so many. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
“I think their assertion that they are doing it to symbolically offer and olive branch rings hollow when they defiantely forge ahead with their plans knowing the agony they are causing to so many.” - Denise I’ve often wondered how the people of Baghdad must feel every time the pass the Green Zone and see the dark shadow of the city size U.S. Embassy looming over them like some gigantic vulture. Hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed, mutilated, during the U.S invasion and so many of them were children. Seeing that monstrosity must bring back agonizing memories of the horrific slaughter of their loved ones during the shock and awe bombing of Baghdad. Mysteria, many thanks for the Cordobian Initiative Article link. I really do need to do a lot more reading on the topic and that was very helpful. . “And sent him homeward, Tae think again.” |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I guess I'm not getting your point, Jen. What is the correlation? Are you saying that since, in your opinion, the U.S. did something offensive in Baghdad, that it is okay for the muslims to do something offensive in New York? |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Nope, just pointing out that I think we lost the moral high-ground on sensitivity/insensitivity a long time ago. . "And sent him homeward, Tae think again." |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
I agree with that statement you made Jennifer, and hopefully it soon will return to those suffering from a lack of it. I could write a book about how much I love the USA, and all its people. The first time I was old enough to figure it out, I finally noticed that in New York lived the very same Jews that the Germans attacked and killed in my history books. Now here, there were Germans, Italians, Jews, Gentiles,Black people, Chinese, and everything in between, every religion was present,and it made such a wonderfully colorful salad bowl of life. I would drift off and think about the old NY gangsters, the various wars that had brought all these people together in this one place. I would think about the grandparents and great grandparents who gave up everything so that their children could be free, a lot dying on their journey. I would think about the Statue Of Liberty, and realize they All had one common goal, they did it all in the sake of "freedom." There is no other country like the USA! I love this video - hope you do too. It reminds me of the unity the USA represents, and just how very precious this freedom is for "everyone" who lives there! New York is full of the world's history, and I hope that its heart mends soon, and all can be as it was once. Doesn't mean we forget, but we somehow find the strength to forgive, and move on. Let Freedom Ring - Gaither Vocal Band Please let the word in this song, "God" be whatever you choose that to be. I chose conscience. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
You're entitled to your opinion. Doesn't mean that you are right, of course. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
So you believe you have found the place where their religious freedom ends, and it's before breaking any law, do I have that correctly, Denise? How exactly do you figure your objection meets any sort of constitutional test? That is the benchmark we're talking about rather than a test of religious righteousness correctness, isn't it? Because Muslims can be Americans, too, last I looked. And we haven't set limits on the size of religious buildings in this country outside potential zoning restrictions, that I know of yet. Are you suggesting that there are Religious buildings we should make smaller? Perhaps Christian religious buildings? St. Patrick's Cathedral. I hear it's very beautiful, but perhaps you feel it's too blatant a reminder of the Catholic problems with non-Catholics in the past, the inquisition or some such? Maybe we should cut it in half? Perhaps we should attack one of the Orthodox Churches in memory of their anti muslim activities in the last Balkan War. Cut down a Jewish synagogue or two to size or pull down a few buildings from Albert Einstein Medical School or their School of Social Work? If you want to go after those responsible for 9/11, might I suggest you consider not attacking the American Constitution, which is what, among other things, the terrorists dislike. Don't advocate acting like a Jihadi, they can do that on their own. Advocate extending and cherishing American Constitutional Liberties by using them. |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Denise: "You're entitled to your opinion. Doesn't mean that you are right, of course." You are right Denise, it sure doesn't mean she, or anyone else is right. We still have to respect that person's opinion. "Sometimes it is hard to to see beyond our own opinion, and really hear what others are saying, instead of trying to talk even louder so they will hear ours." (You can thank my Gramma again for those words.) She was one smart cookie. The thing I remember most about her was she drummed into our young heads, over and over, "The power is in the forgiving." At 65, now I know just how right she was, and the power you regain in doing just that! |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
What an excellent point you made, Mysteria! To this very day those seeking freedom, freedom from oppressive governments/regimes, religious intolerance, a lifetime of poverty, etc. are still coming to this country. If we’re not going to welcome them because of their race, nationality or religious beliefs, then maybe we need to take a refresher course on what’s written on the Statue of Liberty and in the Constitution. No one can choose their heritage, but if they’re willing to live by/follow/observe our laws, what right do any of us have to say they don’t belong? ""Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. The wretched refuse of you teamming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
No one can choose their heritage, but if they’re willing to live by/follow/observe our laws, what right do any of us have to say they don’t belong? That's the entire point. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
quote: Exactly, Jenn. I'm glad that on this, we're on the same page. And I'll just add to it, as I'm sure that generationally our forefathers who did not come directly from England had to, "learn to speak "English", if not "American". Thank you so much. And yes, to all of you out there who are saying, "But we took it away from the Indians..." I wish I could go back and change that! But I can't. I can only take by virtue of faith the best care of what I've been given [land] in the manner best held up by the first American Native. That it is only here for us to tread upon lightly, feed us as it is willing to do, care for it that it cares for that which may give back to us, so that the cycle repeats itself respectfully. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
There are small victories, Sunshine. Native American Tribe Reclaims Slice of the Hamptons after Court Victory http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/07/11-5 |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Smiling! How appropriate for this thread that you found this today! Thank you, Jenn! |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
You're very welcome, Sunshine. All in all, I'd say this has been a very good discussion. Sometimes a rough start turns out to be a really good thing. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
If nothing else, little one, I would say it left us open to knowing that all of our members are compassionate, caring, and... opinionated. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
No, you haven't understood my position, Bob. I am not advocating that they be deprived of any religious freedom in violation of the Constitution. My only point is that since they claim to be offering an olive branch and care, they should show that care and voluntarily build their mosque/cultural center at another location, removed from the Ground Zero vicinity, which for many is the burial ground of their loved ones, out of respect for their feelings. I don't think we have to necessarily respect others' opinions, Sharon, we just have respect their right to express them. And I agree that your gramma was very wise. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
“the burial ground of their loved ones, out of respect for their feelings.” - Denise Don’t have the links or numbers at my fingertips, but I seem to recall there were quite a few Muslims killed in the attack, so Ground Zero would also be their burial ground. Has anyone asked their loved ones how they feel about the proposed Mosque or don’t their feelings count because most likely they're also Muslims? . "And sent him homeward, Tae think again" |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Here is a local paper for you to keep track of what is going on in Manhatten. At first they tried to make 75 Park Place protected by a heritage designation, but that didn't hold water. Then they tried to re-open the forum about the project but that also has been squished. Keep watching, we will see how this is going to go. Manhatten Local News By the way, you are right Jennifer, there were plenty of American Muslims who died during 911, here is a partial list. American Muslims Dead In 911 This proposed 13 story building is right in the middle of the "Amish" shopping area |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
We continue to learn even more, Sharon. Thank you for sharing. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
If the friends and relatives of the Muslims who died there have objections to the proposed mosque/cultural center location, they are certainly free to express those objections, just as the others have. No one 'asked' them how they felt about it either. They just voiced their opposition when they learned of it. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Those who committed the atrocity are also "buried on sacred ground" along with the victims. Thinking about that is really quite overwhelming. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
So public opinion trumps the constitution, then, is THAT what you're saying, Denise? Out of respect for perhaps bigoted public opinion then a religious group should think it's OK to suspend their constitutional right to freedom of religion? How is what you're saying different than that? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Do the friends and relatives of the American Muslims who died deserve a religious memorial to mark their respects to their loved ones Denise? Do the Jewish Americans have the right to the same or the Hindu Americans? If a Christian kills a Christian in a church should the church be demolished? . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
No, Bob, I'm not saying that either. The religious group, if it wishes, to show consideration for the feelings of the grieving family members and friends of those who were killed at the WTC, could voluntarily decide to build elsewhere, as a display of understanding and compassion. No matter which decision they would make they would still have their right to freedom of religion. Sure Grinch, they all have a right to input regarding the WTC memorial that is being planned on the Twin Tower site. I'm sure all the religions and nationalities will be represented there. I can't think of a reason why they wouldn't be. The members of the church would have to vote to decide what they wanted to do with the church building. I guess their decision would have a lot to do with the circumstances and the feelings of the members regarding the tragedy. The Amish school house in PA that was the site of the slaughter of little school children a few years ago was razed to the ground. The community decided that was best under the circumstances. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: That’s very gracious of you Denise, to allow them to be included in the WTC memorial but supposing they want a memorial that’s a little more focused on the faith that’s sustained them through their loss, don’t they deserve that? . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I'm not in a position of allowing anybody to do anything, Grinch. Any graciousness in that area would be coming from the planning committees in charge of the memorials. I would imagine that faith focused memorials would be included, be diverse and be plentiful. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Well, Denise, then you're doing what by complaining about their legal exercise of religious expression? You're certainly not exercising your right of religious expression, since I've heard no mention of your opinion being Christian or Animist or Cargo Cult or Bahai; only that you feel these folks shouldn't express their religious feeling. While you certainly have the right to express your political opinion, the political opinion you're expressing is against a legal expression of protected Religious belief. Why these folks, operating within the legal bounds of the laws of this country, should sacrifice their religious expression to satisfy your animus against their co-religionists, whom you have supplied no particularlly compelling evidence that these folks in any way represent, seems to me to be an unwarranted wearing away of these folks civil liberties. I believe that, indirectly, such a position undermines the civil liberties of all of us, including your own; and proves to be short sighted. I'm reasonably certain that you disagree, and would be interested in hearing how. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
They shouldn't sacrifice their religious expression, Bob, unless they do so voluntarily, out of respect for those personally suffering by the actions of their co-religionists. Choosing the site they did and celebratory grand opening on the tenth anniversary date of the actions of those co-religionists tends to portray them as unconcerned about the sensibiities of those who have suffered the deepest emotional scars (the friends and family of those killed) from that tragedy. Of course, they can do as they please. But to many their olive branch assertions and claims of good will ring hollow when they seem to be indifferent to the pain of others. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Your concern, Denise, reminds me of two brothers from Redondo Beach, Tom and Dick. They were raised by their mother after their father died in a Japanese POW camp during WWII, and Tom, the older of the siblings, was utterly convinced their mother liked Dick better than she liked him. There was, of course, no real basis for feeling that way, but every time the mother would single out the younger son, as is inevitable in any family, Tom's misgivings grew. Tom's feelings were, of course, real. But they weren't justified. It would have been wrong for his mother to respond to those feelings by slighting Dick in even the smallest way, even if that would have perhaps made Tom feel better. Yes, we can and should take into consideration the feelings of other people. But when those feelings have no basis in reality we cannot let them dictate our actions. Tom's feelings cannot be allowed to supercede those of Dick or those of their mother, both of which are equally real. I have little doubt the mother told Tom, probably many times, that she loved him just as much as she loved Dick. And I suspect, Denise, that for Tom those claims rang hollow. That's the way it is with feelings, after all; they can rarely be altered with mere logic or simple truth. Fortunately, Tom and Dick turned out all right. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
LOL! Nice one, Ron. That was certainly the the trademark they used, especially with their famous "Mom always liked you best!" signature line that they used in many routines. A true story, you say? That's interesting.... |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
I thought of the Smothers Bros. with the first sentence, and well recall, "...that's 'cause Mom liked you best!" |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
celebratory grand opening on the tenth anniversary - Denise My maths skills aren't the best, but if it's going to take 3 - 5 years to raise the funds/construct the building, how can they possibly have a "grand opening" on the 10th anniversary? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
While comedian Tommy Smothers always told his brother, “Mom always liked you best,” a study by biology researchers gives new meaning to the classic phrase. Researchers Wendy Reed and Mark Clark at North Dakota State University, Fargo, and Carol Vleck at Iowa State University, Ames, have found that female American coots favor their largest offspring, even before they hatch. http://www.newswise.com/articles/mom-likes-me-best-egg-size-predicts-offspring-survival |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Denise, can you recall where you read about the mosque grand opening being scheduled for the 10th anniversary of 9/11? |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Here is one place Jen. Hot Air Love the name. Here is another New York Post This is a very insightful article, regarding a comparison to Executive Order 1066. Huffington Post |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Thanks, Mysteria. I've seen the tenth anniversary claim repeated unsourced on a lot of blogs and in opinion pieces. What I was hoping to find was something from those actually involved in planning the cultural center. The only thing I could find mentioned 3 - 5 years for funding and construction. |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
This is a good link to watch and read, it is all local and up to date. I am really starting to understand what mass paranoia can cause, and its darn ugly. This is certainly not what I want "my world" to become, and its darn sad, as this hate, and fear will be passed down once again. War Room Boy the name of the paper is sure not far off target. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. http://www.danielpipes.org/rr/2010-06-24-farrakhan-letter.pdf Enough said . . . and by an American . . . . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I miss the Smothers Brothers! They were great! They sure don't make shows like that anymore. Thankfully most parents don't have favorites, Ron, and most kids who feel that their parents do play favorites really are basing their feelings on an unreality. But some actually are based in reality, though hopefully a very small number. Are the 9/11 families basing their feelings in reality? I don't know. They don't want the burial place of their loved ones to be dominated by a 13 story mosque, which in their minds will be a symbol of the religion of the murderers of their loved ones. I don't recall where I first heard about the date, Jen. It may have been an article from the Jihad Watch web site, but I can't find it on there now so maybe it was some other article I had read. I also remember reading one somewhere that said that it was the groundbreaking ceremony/celebration that was to be held on that date, which would make more sense if it will take years to actually build the new mosque. But I also could not find any primary source for that either, so hopefully it's not actually true. Farrakhan is one seriously disturbed individual, John. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I think it's important to remember that many 9/11 families are Muslim. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Those opposed to the Muslim Cultural Center/Mosque can always donate to make this Christian Center at Ground Zero bigger better and overshadow it Toss in a little extra pocket change and maybe they can include a Starbucks and Burger King like they have in the Green Zone. http://www.dnainfo.com/20100713/manhattan/christian-evangelical-center-plans-compete-with-ground-zero-mosque#ixzz0taVZAwhv |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Are you folks on the right actually suggesting I should be hostile now to both Muslims and Blacks? That I should count the NAACP as an enemy of America, and that I should consider myself a White before I think of myself as an American? And that because there are some seriously disagreeable Black Muslims, I should right of the actual upsets that both Blacks and Muslims have? Why are your upsets more compelling, if you please, than those presented by the various minorities of the country? And why should I buy into this huge effort to keep the various parts of this country at each other's throats instead of cooperating with each other about the various economic and social issues we need to deal with together? I don't want to dislike the Blacks or the Muslims or the Hispanics or the American Indians or even the Caucasians, heaven help us. Hate and fear are easy. Cooperation is hard. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
From Jen's Link: quote: quote: Something for Christians to be proud of? |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Pretty sad, isn’t it Ess? And what’s even sadder is knowing that he stands a good chance of collecting tons of money from hate filled folks like those who made the following ad: Kill the Ground Zero Mosque TV Ad http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjGJPPRD3u0 |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
As I continue to learn from my ignorance is that people continue to be chameleons in nature. You can watch, for years, even decades, a certain individual in politics [or any given venue] and voila! Once YOU decide to back them up in their quests, personal, private or otherwise... they suddenly change. Have y'all seen poor Mel's sudden chameleon activity? I'm sure you have. What's behind it? Politics? I don't think so. But then, I don't know. However, I'm wondering what to think now? I liked a number of his films; I liked a lot of what he had done years ago. Didn't particularly like what followed some years later in his personal life, but hey! That was his Personal Life. I vicariously enjoyed the moments he thought to bring to screen. Then he put his profession on the line in production of some controversial films. Now his critics say that his "mental break" is with something chemical. So, how stupid was I [and I can admit to some real moments] when I thought that my sensitivies were aroused, enraged, just because some folk whose kin might have been the culprits in taking down the twin towers might want to erect a monument on what could be considered sacred ground. We're all chameleons. Some of us adapt...some of us might change our minds; some of us know that by nature, silence might be better, and adaptation might keep us alive for one more day. Like chameleons. But...at what price, mental health? I think I want a transfer to another universe. If I'm going to be stupid, I want it to be by myself. So I won't embarrass my friends. Especially those who keep finding that what they might have believed in once, is more mercurial than they thought... just like gulf waters. What's that line? Stop the world...I want to get off. Ok ok, so now some of you can get your minds out of the gutter... That wasn't what I meant, and you know it! So that's my rant for the day...and when someone less confused than I am about things that are for now, can explain it all to me? My email is open. Thanks for letting me hijack my thread once again. " It matters not this distance now " Excerpt, Yesterday's Love ~*~ KRJ |
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