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| Main Forums | Discussion | Tech Talk | Mature Content | Archives |
A home without a wall, |
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| The Alley |
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Flotilla Choir presents: We Con the World |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan 
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. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg&feature=player_embedded . |
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| © Copyright 2010 John Pawlik - All Rights Reserved | |||
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
In my view the UN should implement sanctions against Israel for this latest act of international state sponsored terrorism. . |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. http://article.nationalreview.com/435513/israel-disarmed/charles-krauthammer "If even a blockade, the most passive and benign of defenses, is impermissible, what defenses does Israel have left? . . . The whole point of this relentless international campaign is to deprive Israel of any legitimate form of self-defense." . |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Self defence? Against what exactly, a ship full of humanitarian aid on its way to another country? Israel perpetrated an unprovoked act of piracy and they’re likely to do the same when the Rachel Corrie attempts to break the illegal blockade early tomorrow morning. . |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
The Arabs remembered their Sun Tsu, the Israelis did not. We are grumbling about the results. The Arabs chose the place, the time, the conditions of combat, the rules of engagement and were able to trap the Israelis into rigidity of response.. The Arabs found it relatively simple to trap the Israelis into looking like the bad guys in a professional wrestling match.. I am not nor have I ever been a military man. On the other hand, I have read Sun Tsu. I suspect it was the politicians in command in Israel, and not the soldiers, when it came time to talk about tactics and strategy. Had the soldiers been running the operation, it might have been more likely that the nature of the mission might have been more clearly defined, as in "disable the boats," or, "Make the project look foolish' instead of "create Islamic martyrs" or "Make Israeli look like a bully for trying to defend what it sees as a legitimate national interest." It may actually be a legitimate national interest. The fact that Grinch sees this as otherwise says just how badlly Israel misplayed the situation, how well the Arabs played the situation or possibly both. Israel needs to learn a more fluid and less predictable set of responses if it wishes to ensure its long term survival. A rigid response only lets an oponent know in advance where to place the next punch. It yields advantage. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Sorry, Grinch, but humanitarian aid to that area has a long history of containing arms. It contained arms when The Brits controlled the area and American Jews and others were shipping in aid to refugees from CZs in Europe, and it's contained the same hard crunchy center from time to time when it's been shipped in to Arabs from Muslim countries in recent years. Remember the shipment Mr. Arrafat had such diplomatic indigestion with a few years back when it came in from Cyprus? This shipment may have been all halal. It would have been wiser that way. Or it could have been a tripple bluff of RDX and RPGs and Kalashnikovs mixed in with medicine and grains. What it is most clearly is great propaganda and something of a replay of some of the Jewish tactics that led to the partition vote in 1948. Except the Jewish tactics tried to bring in more refugees.. If the Arabs tried to ship in Palestinian refugees in an attempt to exercise their "Right of Return" I hate to think of what might happen. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "Oh, but weren’t the Gaza-bound ships on a mission of humanitarian relief? No. Otherwise they would have accepted Israel’s offer to bring their supplies to an Israeli port, be inspected for military materiél, and have the rest trucked by Israel into Gaza — as every week 10,000 tons of food, medicine, and other humanitarian supplies are sent by Israel to Gaza. Why was the offer refused? Because, as organizer Greta Berlin admitted, the flotilla was not about humanitarian relief but about breaking the blockade, i.e., ending Israel’s inspection regime, which would mean unlimited shipping into Gaza and thus the unlimited arming of Hamas." http://article.nationalreview.com/435513/israel-disarmed/charles-krauthammer . |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: My first thought is to say “so what”. International law dictates that the control of the importation of small arms is the remit of the government, or occupying government, of the country into which the arms are being imported. My first thought however would be morally, if not technically, wrong. The situation in Gaza is a slightly more complicated given that any arms imported into Gaza are likely to be used against Israeli citizens, under those circumstances it’s reasonable and understandable for Israel to want to verify the legality of the goods being imported, I don’t think any international body would believe otherwise. Unfortunately though that’s not what Israel have been doing, instead they’ve imposed a blockade that closely resembles a medieval siege denying or allowing access based on political expediency rather than the legality of the goods being shipped. Did you know that the amount of goods of all kinds, food medicine etc. getting through to Gaza is 25% of the goods getting through pre 2007? A sobering fact even more significant when you learn that most of that gets there via Egypt rather than through the blockade. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7545636.stm . |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Yes, I did know that. I find the situation to be morally repugnant from just about any angle you would care to examine it from, Pro Palestinian or Pro Israeli. Each party is convinced they know the answer for the other, and that amounts to rolling over and dying. The question that I have for each of them is this: "If you were going to solve the problem in five years, what is it that about your own behavior that you would have to change?" Any answers that include mention of the other party will be thrown out without consideration. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “Veteran White House reporter Helen Thomas has issued an apology after saying in an interview that Jews should “get the hell out of Palestine.” Thomas, a longtime White House correspondent who now writes a column for Hearst newspapers, made the comments May 27 after a White House Jewish heritage event. Asked by Rabbi David Nesenoff of RabbiLive.com if she had “any comments on Israel,” Thomas replied, “Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine.” Thomas went on to say that the Palestinian people “are occupied and it’s their land” and that Israelis should “go home” -- to Poland, Germany, America “and everywhere else.” In a written statement issued Friday, Thomas apologized, saying, “I deeply regret my comments I made last week regarding the Israelis and the Palestinians.” She said the comments “do not reflect” her “heart-felt belief that peace will come to the Middle East only when all parties recognize the need for mutual respect and tolerance.”” http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/04/white-house-repo rter-helen-thomas-apologizes-saying-jews-hell-palestine/ “She said the comments “do not reflect” her “heart-felt belief” So we have lying ears as well as eyes. So no one’s anti-Semitic anymore, they’re just pro-Palestinian, convenient. . . Anyone think the Jews are going to go meekly again into the ovens is out of their mind. . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
She said the comments do not reflect her heart-felt belief In other words, "don't believe what I say". |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. No one outside of the Holocaust believed Hitler . . . |
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N|D|N|C|Lost-Poet Member
since 2009-07-30
Posts 360New Orleans |
The Jews have had the worst time in history when it comes to religious hate. So they wanted a tiny strip of land to call home and live peacefully, what happened? Decades of war, and threats from Muslim leaders who wish to wipe them from the earth. Least Palestine could do is open the borders for Jews to have pilgrimage during the holy days. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Are Israel going to use that as a justification for every atrocity they perpetrate? quote: And anyone who thinks they have a right to exterminate a nation and use that as an excuse is coo coo for coco pops. . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Curse those Jews for their many atrocities and nation-conquering endeavors!!!  "If the Muslims lay down their weapons there will be peace. If Israel lays down their weapons, there will be no Israel." |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: That’s a racist statement Mike. Not all Jews are perpetrating atrocities in the same way that not all Palestinians are firing rockets into Isreal, conflating the actions of a minority with the intentions of the majority is a sure fire recipe for disaster, as history has shown on many occasions. . |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
The problem — or one of the problems, to be more precise about it — is that there are plenty of atrocities to go around, and a paucity of people willing to take responsibility as perpetrators. Pardon the alliteration. It's always the other guy, and, if you're willing to follow the twisted skeins of logic back along the routes chosen, there's always some sort of reality to the explanation. And the other side will be able to do the same thing. There is no shortage of martyrs or villians in the eyes of the partisans of either side. I don't remember who said it, and I wish I did, but the most sensible thing I can recall anybody ever having said about the whole mess was that there were two civil wars going on at the same time, one between right and left wing Jews and the other between right and left wing Palestinians. Every time peace threatened to break out on one side or the other, the more radical branch of that ethnicity would attack somebody unoffensive on the other side of the ethnic divide, the Jews would invade Gaza or the Palestinians would lob some rockets into a wedding, and the whole conflict would reset back to zero, where everything was stable and where the radicals had a better shot of winning against their ethnic rivals, the moderates on their own side. There ought to be a chance for the two civil wars to resolve themselves before the winners sat down to work things out, if indeed that were possible. I simply don't know whether it is any more. The whole thing is such a mess. Yetch. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yes, it is a racist statement, grinch. it was a condensed version of your comment. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
http://video.foxnews.com/#/v/4228414/israel-fighting-pr-war-in-media/?playlist_id=87937 An interesting thing about this video...you won't see it on network news. What a surprise.... |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: It’s nowhere near what I said Mike, and I resent the suggestion that it is, there’s nothing whatsoever in anything I’ve posted that can be remotely construed as racist or anti-semitic. Yet for some strange reason you’ve decided to depict it as such. I can only presume that trying to attribute a racist remark to me is a feeble attempt to paint me as some sort of a racist. If that’s what you think Mike I’d appreciate it if you simply came out with it instead of hiding behind manufactured insinuations – I’d like a chance to defend myself before being branded a racist. . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
They were your words, grinch, and you are the one who called them racist. against Israel for this latest act of international state sponsored terrorism. "latest" means there there are other instances of "state sponsored terrorism, one must assume. Israel perpetrated an unprovoked act of piracy for every atrocity they perpetrate "every" meaning they must perpetuate other atrocities, one must assume. anyone who thinks they have a right to exterminate a nation and use that as an excuse in response to Jews going meekly into the gas chambers. So they will use not going meekly as an excuse for their "atrocities" and "state sponsored terrorism" and some mythical nation extermination? You are the one to speak of Jewish atrocities and state-sponsored terrorism and nation extermination. You are the one who called them racist when I repeated them. I simply agreed with you. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: No they weren’t Mike, that racist garbage you spouted had nothing to do with anything I posted, you simply decided to post a racist statement and attribute it to me. Not content with insinuating that I’m a racist you’ve now decided to try to justify, and presumably prove the depth of my racism, by giving a running commentary based entirely on your warped interpretation of what I was saying. I strongly resent being accused of racism, especially in a public Internet forum where malicious accusations have a tendency to stick, therefore I’ve reported your post as a personal attack and until I hear the decision of the Moderators I’ll refrain from commenting further. . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Do what you will, grinch. My "racist garbage" was your words repeated and acknowledged as racist by you. You claim there was no anti-semitism in your words but you refer to multiple state-sponsored acts of terrorism and acts of atrocities....all directed at Israel. You may try to double-talk your way out of it until the cows come home but they were your words, not mine and the label was applied by you, not me. You had no problem or no hesitation calling my comment racist but bristle at the fact that anything you said could be considered as such. Since my comment consisted of your words, that makes your outrage a little ludicrous. a running commentary based entirely on your warped interpretation of what I was saying. Actually, it was a running commentary of your exact words. If they were warped, then you are once again insulting yourself. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
It has been discussed in the Moderator forum and the determination is that your comments were directed at Israel and it's government, not necessarily Jews as a race. Based on that, I apologize. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Jews are not a race, Mike. Ethiopian Jews, for example, are Black, as was Sammy Davis, Junior. Judaism is a religion. One may become a convert to the religion, though, over the past thousand years or so, Jews have not on the whole encouraged conversion. It is difficult to catagorize the notion of race accurately these days. If you are to believe there is in fact an verifiable construct called race available, and there is some debate about that in the scientific community today, it would be unlikely that one would be able to apply the notion of conversion to it with any degree of comfort or reliability. You might be able to convert from Catholic to Taoist, in other words, but it would be problematic to attempt a conversion from some form of Asiatic folk to, say, some sort of Black folk, especially by simply going through a ceremony. There are Jews who are Black, Chinese, and Caucasian and possibly other groups and sub-groups of which I am unaware. To confuse Judaism, the religion, with a race is inaccurate. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yes, you are correct, Bob. Jews refer to a religion, not a race. If one calls a slur against them as a whole, therefore, racist that would be incorrect. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Exactly the reverse, Mike. Exactly the reverse. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Jews are not a race, Mike. If one calls a slur against them as a whole, therefore, racist that would be incorrect. Exactly the reverse, Mike, exactly the reverse  |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Theories of race have been used to justify the extermination of Jews. You may have seen pictures of Jews drawn with exaggerated noses, for example, in Nazi propaganda. This is common in racist literature, just as exaggerated depictions of Blacks or Chinese are depicted in racist propaganda. Or of Japanese or of Italians or of Mexicans. Characterizing Jews as a race is racist. I never claimed it was logical. A lot of the things that nazis and their sympathizers have done are not logical. The Israeli government has a full range of political parties, from far left to far right. The far right over there is important in any coalition government out of proportion to its size. Much of the world Jewish population is worried about the survival of Israel, and for many good reasons. One of the reasons that there is worry in the world Jewish Community — if one can speak about such a thing as a whole rather than a series of small and quarrelsome factions — is that Israel does not always act in a way that seems to be in its own self interest. It's self interest would seem to dictate that it reach a real state of accommodation with the Palestinians, make an alliance with them, reach a two state solution and help each other out economically. Let each of the two sides deal with their own crazies, and let the majorities work out a peaceful working relationship. The Palestinians could have the world's first Arab Democracy. That would really be something. They could show the rest of the arabs what a functional Democracy can be like. I don't think the rest of the Arab States could or would tolerate such a solution. They certainly have made a point of not absorbing Palestinians into their own populations and of keeping the presence of Jews in the area a sore point, even the Arabs and the muslims peoples in the area with whom we have had at least nominal alliances. I believe this takes pressure of their own power structures, to some extent. Certainly this seems the case in Egypt and in Saudi Arabia. Israel has maintained an aggressive attitude through the whole period. I can understand this to some extent. I also believe that active diplomacy with some of the Arab states might have made some difference. Active Israeli intervention in Saudi Arabia on the side of the people rather than staying separated by the policies of the government might have produced some interesting results, say, funding some democratic resistance movements there; or in Syria or in Iran or Iraq, for that matter, and establishing an alliance with the hopes of the the populations instead of allowing themselves to be the scapegoats of the governments in power. I think that position would have done more for Israel, but perhaps less for the United States. I believe we were looking for somebody to serve our interests there, and in this case, serving U.S. interests in the Middle East might not have been the absolute best thing for Israel. On the other hand, supporting the U.S. is the thing that may have kept them alive this long. I wish I could say. More of an answer than I originally thought of giving, I guess, but then there you are, as the Brits say. Bob's your Uncle. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=160661 With the cast of characters involved with this Free Gaza Movement, like Ayres, Dohrn and Evans, I can only say that the world has gone stark raving mad in denouncing Israel. Completely bonkers! The violent 70's radicals are running the world and siding with the Islamists and casting Israel as the villain. God save us. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Perhaps the White House gave its tacit approval, with John O. Brennan, deputy national security adviser for homeland security and counterterrorism, as the contact person with the Free Gaza Movement's plans to the challenge of the blockade? http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=162377 Why does this Administration come down on the wrong side of every issue? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Fox showed very good video of what happened on that ship.....unlike any of the other news agencies. Yet some people will see it as simply "a ship of humanitarian aid", ignoring everything else. The sad thing is that the orchestrators of this production knew exactly how it would be played out in the media. They counted on it....and the sheep followed. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
I checked our dictionary.com utility for a definition of "islamist." quote: I am familiar with the use of the word in the first sense and have never seen it published in a book or magazine used in the second sense, though it's certainly possible. I have heard of T.E. Lawrence spoken of as an Islamist. I cannot recall seeing Osama Bin Ladin spoken of in books or magazines in those terms. In those terms, "to side with the Islamists" would mean that one would side with those who have some expertise in understanding that religion and those cultures. Presumably a solid understanding of that sort of thing would be a good idea, just as a solid understanding of the Israelis and the various Jewish cultures, of which there are several, would also be considered a good thing. To call 70s radicals violent is at about the same level of sophistication as the one which allows other mistaken people to consider all Vietnam Vets to be war criminals. The amount of contact with reality in either case is minimal. As Denise is wont to remind me, on occasion, about the proportion of certifiable loonies in any group of people: Any group may have them, but they're pretty much on the fringe. Jews are permitted to have as many loonies as any comparable group of Muslims, though it's hardly something worth competing for. In this case, Muslims and Jews have treated each other sloppily in the middle east for a long time, and there is more than enough blame to go around for everybody. Nobody seems willing to claim their fair share, and everybody seems to agree that it's the other guy's fault. I'd like to suggest that this is extremely unlikely. To say "Never again!" may allow you to put aside the role of victim. It does not permit you to adopt the role of bully, and there have been times when it seems to me that Israel has done this over the past sixty or so years. Israel agreed to suspend the building of new settlements on the West Bank, for example. Refusing to follow through on that commitment threw a sop to the Israeli Right Wing but did not show a willingness to negotiate in good faith. In the end it increased the pressure on the Israelis themselves. The treatment of the Palestinians has been shabby, and Israel has put them into ghettoized situations that should make them weep for shame. Jews have experienced the like, and feel rage about it centuries later. Why Israelis would expect less or different from their Palestinian neighbors is a puzzle to me. Yes, both sides are furious at each other, but if they don't talk and if there isn't so real give on this, then how do the Palestinians or the Jews expect anything but a continual worsening of the situation? In Reference to Mike's comments about the media sheep, I respectfully disagree. It's not the media's job to manage the story for one side or the other. The Israelis have been acting in an absolutely predictable fashion, and they have allowed themselves to be outplayed. They are massively off balance and they can be easily lead about by the nose unless they change tactics and become more flexible in how they respond to crises. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
To call 70s radicals violent is at about the same level of sophistication as the one which allows other mistaken people to consider all Vietnam Vets to be war criminals. To call THOSE 70s radicals non-violent is like calling Jeffrey Dahlmer simply a man with a kinky appetite.. It's not the media's job to manage the story for one side or the other. Exactly...and yet that is what they have done. The Israelis have been acting in an absolutely predictable fashion, and they have allowed themselves to be outplayed. They are massively off balance and they can be easily lead about by the nose unless they change tactics and become more flexible in how they respond to crises. On that we agree completely, Bob. They should have sensed the trap being laid for them and, instead, they walked right into it. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
quote: From what I've seen, they reported what happened, not only the Israeli attack on the relief vessels, but also the fact that the relief vessels were of somewhat ambiguous origin and that their purpose clearly involved breaking the Israeli blockade of Gaza. Food shipments would then be allowed in, but that would mean that arms shipments would flow in as well, and the distribution of the shipments would be in, the hands of the local power brokers. That last part won't have been such a big change, although the actual identity of the power brokers may change. I got that much from Rachel Maddow, which seems like a pretty fair overview and not too much skewed in a pro Palestinian way. The Israelis have been reacting in a too predictable fashion, and this makes them too vulnerable to manipulation. One of the Israelis suggested that the fleet could have been imobilized using steel nets in their ship propellers. It would have avoided such a direct confrontation. I would have suggested that their fellow muslims make cash donations to the residents of Gaza for them to grow their own food and start their own hydroponic farms using desalination plants. It might make a difference to the economy of the area. It might also be impossible for one reason or another, but probably worth a try. It's a technology the world is going to need over the next fifty years, and they'd be silly not to give it a shot, had they the potential financing for it. Maybe the Israelis could help. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “ I would have suggested that their fellow muslims make cash donations to the residents of Gaza for them to grow their own food and start their own hydroponic farms using desalination plants. It might make a difference to the economy of the area. It might also be impossible for one reason or another, but probably worth a try. It's a technology the world is going to need over the next fifty years, and they'd be silly not to give it a shot, had they the potential financing for it. Maybe the Israelis could help.” “As Israel withdrew in 2005, it bequeathed state-of-the-art hydroponic farms in which it cultivated some 30 percent of its vegetables in water-filled containers. Palestinians soon destroyed these high-tech facilities in an attack on Jew-farming techniques.” http://article.nationalreview.com/382044/choosing-death-over-life/deroy-murdock . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Surprise, surprise: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/gaza-blockade-iran-aid-convoy |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Another one of those words, Bob, with layers of meaning. This is from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary: Main Entry: Is·lam·ism Pronunciation: \is-ˈlä-ˌmi-zəm, iz-, -ˈla-; ˈiz-lə-\ Function: noun Date: 1747 1 : the faith, doctrine, or cause of Islam 2 : a popular reform movement advocating the reordering of government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam — Is·lam·ist \-mist\ noun |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/36488_Did_Reuters_Crop_a_Photo_to_Remove_a_Peace_Activists_Weapon |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/rubin/307496 |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
But Denise, you didn't use the word "islamism" in the comment I was speaking of. "Islamism" does in fact carry that meaning. You used the word "Islamist," as in: quote: You may be doing a bit of overgeneralizing as well, since you could hardly call all the world leaders "violent 70's radicals." The Dalai Lama, for one, might be somewhat amused to hear himself characterized in that fashion, as might the Pope, both of who seem to me to be among those who run the world, and the Israeli Prime Minister doesn't seem to be the sort of guy who might be easily thought of as a "violent 70's radical," nor, now that I think on it, does he seem to be the kind of guy to (at least intentionally) cast Israel as a villain." Unintentionally, he seems hard pressed to avoid it. No matter how you define "Islamist," I doubt Benjamin Netanyahu would qualify as one. I must say that I'm sorry to hear that the Palestinians trashed a potential hydroponics industry. I can't say I'm terribly surprised, but I am saddened. There is more than enough folly for the two sides in this particular conflict to feast generously and still leave the table with much to offer the other. The area is rich in folly and blame and gall. If only this constituted a healthful and balanced diet everybody would be well fed. Instead both sides seek to peddle these commodities about the planet and both sides find ready buyers for this toxic stew. My own preference is that nobody die, but I am afraid that both Palestinians and Israelis would rather fight me than give an inch on the possibility of conflict resolution, especially if it involves making concessions to the other side, whichever the other side happens to be. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Israel Shuts Off Water, Dries Gaza Greenhouses Posted: August 29, 2005 1:00 am Eastern WorldNetDaily.com “JERUSALEM – After months of intense negotiations recently culminating in a deal allowing for the transfer of Gaza's high-tech Jewish greenhouses to the Palestinians, several former Jewish residents who briefly returned to their farms told WND they were shocked to find most of their produce has died because Israel turned off the water in the area.“ http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=32030 |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Bill Gates Secretly Paid for Gaza Greenhouses http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=35684 “Al-Masri yesterday said the Gaza greenhouses are fully functioning and are producing at full capacity. He also said most of the stolen greenhouse equipment has been recovered by the Palestinian Authority police. His claims could not be independently verified before press time.” .......................................... Damages Resulting from Operation Cast Lead UNOSAT_GazaStrip_Damage_Review_19Feb09_v3_Lowres.pdf http://unosat-maps.web.cern.ch/unosat-maps/PS/Crisis2008/UNOSAT_DamagedRoadsGreenhousesCultivatedLands_GazaStrip_Feb2009_Highres.pdf |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Some other articles at the same site just before: . “Hamas launching rocket war after Gaza evacuation Terrorist group foresees massive attacks as next stage of 'conflict' Posted: August 06, 2005 1:00 am Eastern © 2010 WorldNetDaily.com JERUSALEM – A research center affiliated with Hamas has published a study concluding the Palestinian group is likely to launch rockets against towns in Judea and Samaria after Israel withdraws its Jewish communities from Gaza. The study follows an announcement last month on Hamas' official website that the group will continue its war to destroy Israel by launching Qassam rockets at Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and communities in Judea and Samaria. “ . http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45627 . ........................... Gaza evacuation 'beginning of Israel's destruction' Hamas announces attacks to 'liberate' entire Jewish state Posted: August 20, 2005 1:00 am Eastern © 2010 WorldNetDaily.com "Neither the liberation of the Gaza Strip, nor the liberation of the West Bank or even Jerusalem will suffice us. Hamas will pursue the armed struggle until the liberation of all our lands. We don't recognize the state of Israel or its right to hold onto one inch of Palestine. Palestine is an Islamic land belonging to all the Muslims." The comments coincide with recent Hamas announcements it will begin the next phase of its war to destroy the Jewish state by launching Qassam rockets at Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and West Bank communities instead of focusing on suicide bombings.” http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45859 . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Here you go Bob. This is from YourDictionary.com Is·lam·ist (iz läm′ist, is-; -lam′-; iz′ləm ist) noun an advocate or supporter of Islamic, esp. orthodox Islamic, political rule adjective of or pertaining to Islamists, their political and social goals, etc. Also Islamicist Is·lam′i·cist (-ə sist) And the 70s radicals to whom I was referring are the names listed in my post along with many in power right now in D.C. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
http://americanbuilt.us/images/holocaust/landloss.jpg |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Strange isn’t it that several of our resident right-wingers find Sir Paul’s one liner shockingly inappropriate, disrespectful, demeaning, blah blah blah, but the video in the opening post of this thread distributed by Israel’s Government Press Office doesn’t seem to have offended their sensibilities enough to warrant a comment. At least 9 civilians were murdered and perhaps as many as a hundred people wounded in the flotilla massacre. The Gaza Flotilla, parody material? Not hardly. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
At least 9 civilians were murdered and perhaps as many as a hundred people wounded in the flotilla massacre. Jenn, you make more sense when you post meaningless jokes that have nothing to do with the topic being discussed.  |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
"No-One Land" - Henry Carse "I believe, even now, that the nonviolent option is the only way for Israel and Palestine," he writes. "Whatever the caliber of my weapon, if I am shooting the ‘other,' I am forced to deny that the ‘other' is like myself. I can only kill from a desperate position, a position, a position behind a veil, from which I cannot afford to see the human beauty and uniqueness I am destroying." "This is true whether I am detonating a powerful explosive from 100 meters away to rip through a busload of children, or launching the missile that shatters the body of the doctor on his way to care for a neighbor. The rock in the hand and the high-velocity projectile in the gunbarrel are unalike in strategic weight, but they are identical in the fear and desperation, the bluster and the numbness they represent. It's all bad magic, bad medicine, and it is turning us to stone." ... “What is the balance between wisdom and force?” Henry Carse asks. “As our power to be compassionate falters, the Occupation and its consequences continue killing us all. Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians, have swallowed enough evil tidings to destroy the souls of both nations, and still neither has the courage to loosen the deadly grip. “Silenced by dishonesty, we send more kids with guns to spread the rule of state terror and the rule of partisan terror – all for nothing but to defend the Occupation – or to destroy it. Then, silenced by grief, we bury the dead. “If another more honest witness does not step in, the lines of battle will soon pass through every classroom and bedroom in this land. Someone must redraw the border between sanity and cruelty; already we have forgotten where that boundary once stood.” http://consortiumnews.com/2010/060710c.html |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Are you saying that Jennifer addressed the topic and made no sense? Mike, I found her very much to the point. If you don't agree with the point she's making, perhaps you'd care to say how and where rather than assuming that the rest of us understand what you mean. I certainly do not. Your acknowledgement that her comments have to do with the topic at hand suggests that the comments are not irrelevant or meaningless. Suggesting they are is sophistry. Taking a gratuitous shot at her simply suggests you are incapable of addressing the points she raises, whether you are or are not, as a sort of roundabout display of spleen. After all, you have the option of saying nothing about her points at all instead of directing comments at the woman herself. If you are capable of addressing her points, why not do so instead of taking a gratuitous swipe at the woman. She was, after all,merely addressing your point of view, and her view seemed, at least to me, to be as thoughtful as yours. What is it about the points she raised that bothered you? Knowing you, I'm certain you have some thoughtful comments about her point of view to offer. I'd like to hear what they are. I am not certain what the right ways for the Israelis to deal with this sort of attack on the blockade process, personally. I think that denying food to starving people is a bad position for the Israelis to be in, as is denying the folks in Gaza enough medical care and whatever hardships the trade embargo offers. The fact that weapons come in with the goods and services is something that makes the situation more difficult and dangerous. The Palestinians have some real responsibility here as well, and they are certainly taking full advantage of the Israeli's rigidity. If I had a great solution, I'd offer it. Neither side wants to look at the enemy as the foe that they have created for themselves through their own actions. As long as the world and the two sides most visible in this conflict keep accepting the current way of looking at the situation, things there cannot and will not change. As long as each side has its gaze locked fixedly and firmly on the actions of the other people and understands their own actions solely as responses to the provocations of the other side, then the events of the present will continue forward in a helpless and intricate lockstep, intense as a tango, each side seduced into an escalating cycle of passionate rage and violence. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
At least 9 civilians were murdered Do you feel they were murdered, Bob? btw, did you bother watching the video where Reuters edited out the knife in the hand of one of the "innocent victims"? Using comments like murdered and massacre make little sense here. Give your white horse some oats and put him to bed. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/06/06 “ But one thing is fast becoming clear - many of the dead were shot multiple times at point-blank range. One was a journalist taking photographs. "A man was shot ... between the eyebrows, which indicates that it was not an attack that took place from self-defence," Hassan Ghani, a passenger, said in an account posted on YouTube. "The soldier had time to set up the shot." Mattias Gardell, a Swedish activist, told the TT news bureau: "The Israelis committed premeditated murder ... Two people were killed by shots in the forehead, one was shot in the back of the head and one in the chest." http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/06/09 "Nineteen-year-old U.S. citizen Furkan Dogan was shot once in the chest and four times in the head. Israel commandeered the six vessels and arrested the roughly 700 activists and journalists, hauled them to the Israeli port of Ashdod and kept them out of meaningful communication with family, press and lawyers for days. The Israeli government confiscated every recording and communication device it could find—devices containing almost all the recorded evidence of the raid—thus allowing the state to control what the world learned about the assault. The Israelis selected, edited and released footage they wanted the world to see." http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/06/01-2 "The dead have joined Rachel Corrie, Tom Hurndall, James Miller and Brian Avery in giving up their lives for the Palestinians. None of these young men and women went out to die or wanted to die or was accepting of death. Each and every one of them ultimately believed that they were safe; that there was a boundary – call it a boundary of legality, a boundary of civilisation – that Israel would not cross. They were wrong. And in proving them wrong, Israel has revealed, once again, its true face to the world. This face, of course, the Palestinians know well. They see it every day in the teenage soldiers of the occupation chewing gum as they dish out humiliations, in the settlers shooting young Palestinians with impunity, in the soldiers firing gas canisters at the heads of demonstrators. The world saw that face in January last year when Israel unleashed the might of its air force on Gaza – the only time in modern warfare that a civilian population was sealed in as it was being bombed and shelled. Now Israel is out on the high seas killing internationals. So never mind the multimillion-dollar public relations campaign – actions speak louder than words, and the murder of these peace activists is Israel's message to the world. It does not matter what Mark Regev or any other Israel spokesperson says. It does not matter what spin the Israeli government tries to put on this; the only link between Israeli words and Israeli deeds is this: Israel uses words as a decoy and an obfuscation and a cover for its deeds. It has done so for 62 years. These internationals, dead now, murdered, have ensured that anyone who does not see this is wilfully blind." |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
New Video Smuggled Out from Mavi Marmara of Israel’s Deadly Assault http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/10/exclusive_journalist_smuggles_out_video_of |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “In an interview with the New York Times, Dr. Hasan Huseyin Uysal, a Turkish doctor, said he treated Israeli commandos who were captured and briefly detained during initial stages of the raid on the ship challenging the blockade. And then the soldiers were given back to the Israeli commandos.” Now that is funny! . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Facts Beyond the Spin: Israel Delivers Massive Aid to Gaza June 2, 2010 – 1:03 pm Despite the fact that Israel publicly offered to inspect and then transfer the flotilla’s aid to Gaza several days prior to the incident, many opponents of Israel are now making wild accusations that humanitarian supplies are being blocked from entering Gaza. The facts put these charges to rest – just take a look at how much aid Israel regularly delivers to Gaza, and what it means in real terms for Gazans: * Over one million tons of humanitarian supplies were delivered by Israel to the people of Gaza in the past 18 months – that’s equal to nearly one ton of aid for every man, woman and child in Gaza. * In the first quarter of 2010 alone (January-March), Israel delivered 94,500 tons of supplies to Gaza. It’s very easy to miss what that actually means for the people of Gaza. The breakdown includes: o 40,000 tons of wheat – which is equal to 53 million loaves of bread; o 2,760 tons of rice – which equals 69 million servings; o 1,987 tons of clothes and footwear – the equivalent weight of 3.6 million pairs of jeans; and o 553 tons of milk powder and baby food – equivalent to over 3.1 million days of formula for an average six-month-old baby. * This reflects a long-term effort on the part of Israel to deliver a massive and comprehensive supply of aid to Gaza’s civilians, while restricting the ability of Hamas to import missiles that have been launched at the cities of southern Israel. In 2009 alone: o During the Muslim holy days of Ramadan and Eid al-Adha, Israel shipped some 11,000 head of cattle into Gaza – enough to provide 8.8 million meals of beef; o More than 3,000 tons of hypochlorite were delivered by Israel to Gaza for water purification purposes – that’s 60 billion gallons of purified water; and o Israel brought some 4,883 tons of medical equipment and medicine into Gaza – a weight equivalent to over 360,000 260-piece mobile trauma first aid kits. Read the full statistics and judge for yourself. Humanitarian crisis in Gaza? Not according to the facts. http://www.cicweb.ca/scene/2010/06/israel_aid_to_gaza/ Yes, actions DO speak louder than words.... |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Yes they do, Michael. Yes they do. Thank you for sharing these facts. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Turkish Doctor Describes Treating Israeli Commandos During Raid http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/09/turkish-doctor-describes-treating-israeli-commandos-during-raid/ |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Do I feel that the 9 civilians were murdered? I don't know, Mike. If the incident is the same one that is spoken about in the articles about the three israeli Commandoes boarding in Turkish ship under a covering fire of plastic or rubber bullets which was later changed to read bullets, I would have to say yes, the nine civilians were murdered. The boats could haver been disabled and towed into harbor if necessary. A direct assault does not seem a necessary intervention. It seems provocative. It also seems that the Israelis were clearly outplayed by the Palestinians into overplaying a weak hand in front of cameras. You've heard me say this before. The Israeli position is very macho and appealing in that way, but it is one that is ultimately one that will be defeated by somebody who understands Sun Tsu and the importance of forcing the enemy's hand, his tactics, his timing, and his ground so that all these break according to your needs. I have made reference to this before. I really suggest that you stop by a library and give the book a look or even buy your own copy. It's very enlightening about this sort of thing. Even if it wasn't murder — and I think it was — it was a sound defeat for Israel, and that is what we are hearing right now. The writhings of a wounded country that has been seriously pinked by a militarily inferior enemy. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
What do you think about the amount of aid Israel has sent to Gaza, as listed above, Bob? Doesn't that seem a little strange to you that they continue to supply to populace of a country that they are supposedly trying to starve, according to the media? How many people were injured on the second ship that was boarded? Right, none, nor was there an incident. That ship was not loaded with radicals looking to create an international incident by attacking the Israelis that boarded. Everyone claims Israel has no right to set up the blockade bit no one mentions the 6300 missiles Hamas has showered on Israel since 2005. Is it so unreasonable to think they want to limit weapons going into the hands of those cuddly Hamas humanitarians? Who do they think they are.....JFK??? |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
43 Years After Surviving Israeli Attack on USS Liberty, US Veteran Joe Meadors Seized by Israeli Forces on Gaza Aid Flotilla http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/4/43_years_after_surviving_israeli_attack "The ultimate lesson of the Liberty attack" was that it "had far more effect on policy in Israel than in America. Israel's leaders concluded that nothing they might do would offend the Americans to the point of reprisal. If America’s leaders did not have the courage to punish Israel for the blatant murder of American citizens, it seemed clear that their American friends would let them get away with almost anything." - George Ball |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “Oh, please. Just because the Israeli commandos weren't actually lynched doesn't mean that the perception on the Israeli military's part that their soldiers were in grave danger, wasn't there. I've seen the videos and now I see these photos. The commandos were treated to a pinata party with the "activists" holding the ropes and leading the descending soldiers into groups of pipe and knife wielding gangs. Then the commandos were "detained". I don't know what these "activists" expected to happen. These were soldiers and if I were an "activist" I would have peacefully made my way to the safe side of the boat and let the soldiers do what they came to do. Any rational person that valued their life would have done the same thing. I'm usually a huge fan of the New York times and feel like their reporting is most often balanced and fair, but not in the case of this story. The benefit of the doubt is constantly, in story after story, given to the "activists" while all the video and photographic evidence as well as plain old common sense seems to support the Israeli side of things. “ . "The minute a commando's sidearm was grabbed by an activist and he and/or other commandos were taken below, the troops HAD TO act with deadly force. According to Israeli military doctrine, if a soldier is seen being taken hostage, other soldiers must do everything to foil the kidnapping - even if it means endangering the life of the captive soldier. The idea is that Israel cannot be put in a hostage situation. I know this because my military service in the IDF included such scenarios. There certainly was fault in the planning of this raid, but the activists, especially those from IHH, weren't naive: Martyrdom is good PR in the Muslim world, but an Israeli hostage is even better." . "Dr. Hasan Huseyin Uysal is an honorable man and is certainly bound by the Hippocratic oath. But his explanations about a cut in the stomach resulting from “landing on a sharp pole from the helicopter or a blow from a pipe with a sharp edge” are frankly hilarious. A video in You Tube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buzOWKxN2co) shows a peace activist stabbing an Israeli soldier several times. Further, Dr Uysal never noticed that the peace activist standing at his side while he mercifully cared for a badly beaten soldier was holding a knife, not a sharp-edged pipe, as shown in the Hurriyet´s pictures (but not in doctored Reuters´s ones). Maybe a visit to an eye doctor could help the good eye doctor see things more clearly. By the way, having worked in an emergency room for nearly twenty years, I would never be half as sure as Dr. Uysal that an abdominal penetrating wound was not a life threatening emergency without a full battery of exams." . "Surprisingly the doctor's account supports the IDF's version of events. I quote: "First of all it’s against logic that these soldiers would not be killed but instead be taken to the medical center if the intention of the activists was to kill them. If people on board were so eager to hurt them, why would they not just shoot them to death once they had taken their guns?" Excuse me doctor, but let me get it straight: You're saying that if the IDF's version was true, then the soldiers would have shoot the "activists" to defend themselves? Now correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there 9 "activists" dead? If so, then according to your logic (which is sound by the way) the activists tried to snatch the seals' weapons and so they fired back killing 9 of their assailants." . As we know from numerous protests in the US in the '60s, and anywhere else, in the overwhelming majority of cases, protesters run away from armed men, from smoke bombs, and from the sound of gunfire. As we see by what happened on the other five of the six ships in the flotilla. On the Mavi Marmara, at 4 in the morning, about a hundred men -- fully dressed! -- run _toward_ the armed men? And some have the instant idea to tie the rope from the helicopter to a ship's mast? And are able to do that effectively? And some are quick enough and focused enough to grab a commando's sidearm? Would you try that with a NYC cop? And are able simply to fire it? How many people here reading this know how to fire a pistol? And you want people to believe this fracas was not planned, the activists rehearsed, and the whole bloody, intentional media event staged? . "I'm surprised at the lack of anti-Israel comments to this article. Lately there seems to have been an increase in anti-Israeli and anti-semitic sentiment in the news from Elvis Costello to the recent flotilla that it has become increasingly disturbing to me, a Jewish, Liberal, female from New York City. It's heartening that many readers of this article are not seeing Israel just as an oppressor nation of fascists." http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/09/turkish-doctor-describ es-treating-israeli-commandos-during-raid/ . Seems some still sniff before drinking the kool-aid. . . [This message has been edited by Huan Yi (06-11-2010 03:12 PM).] |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
quote: Where did you see me say that Israel didn't have a right to blockade Gaza? Show me that place. Israel has the right to do its best to make sure that no missiles fall on Israel, and if that includes a blockade, then that includes a blockade. I did not mention the number of missiles because I 1) didn't know the number of missiles fired by Hamas; 2) wouldn't know how to distinguish a missile fired by Hamas from a missile fired by anybody else; 3) think that missiles are a measure of how badly the fraternal relationship is going, and as such it leaves out the other half of the equation. I don't bother to equate Hamas as being cuddly humanitarians any more than I would equate the Likud with being Cuddly Humanitarians. Both have a solid humanitarian side when it serves them, both are very charitable when it comes to activities that bring political gains. Both are ruthless when they feel they need to be. They are both hard-nosed political parties with similar political tactics that grew out of a similar sort of political base and had a similar kind of political appeal. They have as many things in common as they do differences, including a willingness to do violence and a brutal nationalism that is willing to do almost anything to achieve its ends. The Likud has simply been around perhaps fifty years longer, and has accomplish more of its original goals. quote: What do I think of the amount of aid Israel has sent to Gaza, as listed above? Ah? There is a question for you. Considering that the reason that most of that aid is needed is that Israeli policy makes it almost impossible for the people in Gaza to find work, to do the farming on the land that they once owned, and that these are, many of them, refugees as a result of the actions of Israel (and some of their Arab neighbors as well) who forced them off the land that battles were being fought across and who were not allowed to return, I'd say that the aid was a bit shabby. Sort of like indian reservations instead of the land that the Indians originally owned. The unemployment in Gaza is astronomical because the jobs that many of the inhabitants once held outside Gaza were no longer available. The long inspections are often necessary to cross from one side of the border to the other. The aid is a small and partial recognition of the damage these actions have inflicted on the economy of the region. The blockade has also forced the transfer of goods along the overcrowded surface road system and through the bottlenecked inspection sites, causing lengthy delays and higher prices than might otherwise be necessary. This is hardly recompense for access to Gaza through some port of their own, which might serve to stimulate trade and the economy as well as allowing the transit of exports and imports more directly and cheaply. Do the Israelis have a right to inspect Palestinians or, for that matter, anybody traveling across that border. Oh my, yes, they do. There is no shortage of seriously angry Palestinians willing to be martyrs. The Israelis are being prudent. But if you wish to feel great about the level of charity shown by the Israelis, I would suggest that this would not be something upon which to stake your pride. If it were, you would be able to take a camera and walk through the streets and bazaars of Gaza and show the happy activity of the prosperous people. I notice there aren't a lot of such pictures floating around. If, in fact, the charity were what would pass as good charity in the Jewish tradition, nobody would be writing about it, nobody would be showing pictures of it, and certainly, nobody would be bragging about it. What you have here is PR, and not very good PR at that. The wish here is for there to be a right party and a wrong party, something with no ambiguity, where we westerners can make a judgement and say, "By golly, you're right. Now we simply have to make the bad people see the folly of their ways, and everything will be well with the world." Not going to happen here. Everybody's right about everything. They're right about who's right in the conflict; they right about who's wrong in the conflict, even when they disagree. They're right about whose fault it is, clearly, because the other party is obviously in the wrong, no matter who's telling the story. Every hero is a villain, even when he's absolutely flawless, which we know because the Koran tells us so, or the Bible does, even when these infallible books disagree with each other in the telling. They both are telling the absolute truth. The irony is that both of them believe the other is lying, which is of course true as well, as certainly as it's true that they're telling God's truth in this matter, so help them God. Really, it's that simple, believe me. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
If Gaza wants improved relations with Israel, open ports, unclogged roads and less restrictive checkpoints, they need to vote out Hamas as the ruling authority, and choose a government whose stated mission is not the annihilation of Israel. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
If Israel wanted peace with the Palestinians, in the same fashion, they'd have to think about the meaning of saying they were going to establish a Jewish State right in the middle of somebody else's territory. How would you feel if Native Americans bought a bunch of property in the middle of Philly, tore down what was there, made the concrete wasteland of Rittenhouse Square and germantown bloom with crops, forced out everybody else who wasn't Native American and proclaimed a Native American Homeland there. Backed by the U.N. Any U.S. Citizens still in the area who pledged to destroy this Indian Homeland or started some sort of a resistance against it — how would you feel if they were crowded into ghettoes, deprived of work and subject to random police and army raids. You bet there'd be a resistance. Maybe you wouldn't be part of it. Maybe you would. But the situation isn't as cut and dried as you paint it, Denise. And I don't think the Israelis are doing themselves much good by failing to see and understand the Palestinian point of view. For one thing, buying a bunch of land doesn't give you national rights to that land. Buying a house in Boston doesn't give you the right to form your own country on a little plot of land on Commonwealth Avenue or Beacon Street. It simply says that your plot of land is recognized as being under your ownership by the local authorities and you can use it as long as you don't break some of the basic laws of that country, such as the payment of taxes to that country. It's a big step from buying land to having sovereignty over that land. There may actually be a real question over Israel's right to that land and the right of that country to be there. I mean a legal right. I don't think there's any justification for driving the Israelis into the sea, or killing them; but the legal right for them to have that land may well be open to some question. The story of how the Israelis came to acquire it is only one side of the story, and it is not the story that the Palestinians tell. There are two different stories here, and simply because I love the heroic Israeli myth, that doesn't mean that it is the true story or the right story. I don't know what story is. I don't even know enough of the Palestinian side of the story to attempt a retelling of it, and thus be able to produce something that appears to be an A says, B says sort of narrative. If you have one that proports to be complete, lets hear it. Otherwise, you are insisting on the truth with only half the story told. That may well be enough for you, but it offends my sense of fair play. I have heard from Palestinians that they were ordered off the land by Israelis before the 1948 war, and were told they would be killed if they didn't leave. This I have not heard from any western sources. A second story Palestinians I have known told me is that Israelis told them that they would be able to return after the fighting was over and resume farming their land. If the Palestinians had thought otherwise, they would not have left in the first place. I will say that it's not a good place for a farmer to be, in the middle of a battlefield, and that any farmer sitting in the middle of such a space is an unusual farmer indeed. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I think you’re being a little hasty there Bob. You need far more information before reaching such a conclusion, for instance you need to know how much aid is required and how that relates to the amount being supplied. A million tons of aid in eighteen months sounds like a lot but if 1.5 million people require, I don't know, say.. 1.6875 million tons of food alone in that period then the amount being shipped could be classed as far worse than ‘shabby’. If I were someone who was interested in the facts I’d do a quick ballpark calculation – I’d use the available data that says that the average person in the west consumes 0.75 tons of food a year, I’d multiply that by the 1.5 million people in Gaza then multiply it again by 1.5 to cover the eighteen month figure quoted. I’d then compare the result with what the Israelis claim they supplied and see how the figures stack up. You may have noticed the word ‘claim’ in that last sentence Bob, there are two very good reasons for that. Over one million tons of humanitarian supplies were delivered by Israel to the people of Gaza in the past 18 months Do you get the impression from that statement that those nice Israelis went out and bought a milon tons of aid Bob, that they loaded it into trucks and delivered it personally to the people in Gaza? Does that sound right to you? Is it possible that the aid was in fact supplied and delivered by international humanitarian groups like the UN and that the only input the Israli’s can claim is that they stood at the border turning back all the aid they didn’t want to get to Gaza? That’s one reason, here’s the second, it’s a little less compelling because to believe it you have to believe that Israel have been honest about aid shipments in the past. According to Israeli sources it can only allow 10,000 tons of aid into Gaza a week, obviously they’d like to allow more but apparently that’s the absolute maximum that can be processed through the border checkpoints with the available manpower – and that’s if all the Israeli border staff are “working around the clock”. If that’s correct, and it’s a fairly dubious ‘if', then the 1 million ton figure they're claiming is unattainable – if Israel are telling the truth about how much aid can be shipped to Gaza in a week then their claim of 1 million tons is a complete fabrication. Conversely if they can, and have, shipped a million tons then they’ve been purposely capping shipments to 10,000 tons in the past. I'd suggest 'shabby' isn't quite the right word for what they're doing. . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Something to think about from the archives and one of Denise’s favorite sources: Where are the Christians? http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51116 |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I don't agree with the views of all the commentators that I read on wnd, Jen. Besides, didn't Obama say that we aren't a Christian nation in one of his speeches and then in another speech say that we were the world's largest Muslim country? |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Ah, Grinch, Thank you for the extra mile on that one. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I’m sorry you missed the point. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I didn't miss the point, Jen. I don't agree with his views of the situation. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
His view is that “imposing deliberate suffering on civilians, collective punishment on innocent people” “ violates international law and comports neither with our values nor our interests. It is un-American and un-Christian.” You disagree with that? |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I disagree with his charactrerization of those events and that Israel was in the wrong in the situation, and that by extension, Christians were wrong for not speaking out against the war. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. What's the total aid from all sources? Wager it's impressive. . |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: According to Israel the highest total of goods allowed across the border in a single week, from all sources, is 9666 tons. According to the UN that’s about 25% of the amount required. . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
http://www.commondreams.org/video/2010/06/13 |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
This was a statement by Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Abul Gheit on Nile-TV. It was made on the «Round table show». This is the statement recorded: Adul Gheit said he had a one-on-one meeting with Obama, where the US President told him that He was still a Muslim, the son of a Muslim father, the step son of Muslim stepfather, that his half brothers in Kenya are Muslims, and that he was sympatetic towards the Muslim agenda. Adul Gheit claimed Obama told the Arabs to show patience. Obama promised that once he overcame some domestic issues, like the Health care reform, he would show the Muslim World how to deal with Israel. Source: Israeli magazine, Israel today. (full article) http://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/2010/06/08/egyptian-minister-obama-told-me-he-is-a-muslim/#comment-4858 |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
That is impressive. It's impressive in that it's a lot of stuff. In that somebody is trying hard and that it's not enough stuff, and that somebody hasn't picked up the disparity in the figures given out and scrambled to cover the difference with some sort of new information of disinformation or a plausible story at least. I'd want the respect of somebody doing a creative job of lying to me and pretending on some level that it mattered, because to me it does. I don't want starving a million people to be something that's easily swept under the rug as though it didn't matter. I don't want somebody looking back in twenty years and saying, hey, that cover-up was really pathetic, how come you didn't see through it? Were you just sticking your head in the sand, or what? I want somebody to really work at helping my denial along here, and the fact that nobody seems to be willing to do that is sort of insulting. I find that impressive, the contempt with which my intelligence is being treated. I don't want the folks in Gaza to start tossing missiles into Israel, but, I must confide in you, I don't think they need to be starved to death in order to avoid that situation either. I know this may seem a radical suggestion to some, but there is actually a fair amount of distance between those two choices. Very impressive. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Are the people in Gaza starving? . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
"I don't want the folks in Gaza to start tossing missiles into Israel" START tossing? You've been asleep a long time, Bob. How about over 6300 in the past five years? Start, you say? That's impressive... |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I read that earlier too, Michael. I guess it should come as no surprise. Lots of things certainly would make more sense if that were the case, like his first post election speech being to a worldwide Muslim audience, which we didn't even find out about until afterward, his blatant disrepecting of Israel, on more than one occassion, his bowing to the Saudi king, and his establishing a new Muslim Outreach Office, his forbidding the use of the terms jihad and war on terror in government papers, etc. I tried to find a link to the actual program but didn't have any luck. Or maybe I did but didn't know what I was seeing as some of the links when I googled it were in Arabic. But Google was caught attempting to bury things recently, ever since one of Google's execs got a job in the administation, so who knows? |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Good question, John. Is there evidence that the people are starving? Also, I would be much more skeptical of claims made by the U.N. than by claims made by Israel. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Looks to me like this baby is starving, Denise. You're a grandmother, what do you think? Is that a malnourished infant? http://www.commondreams.org/video/2010/06/13 |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
There have been plenty of signs, Denise. Most people just haven't been made aware of them. Here's a list... March 2009, Obama declares the "war on terror" is over despite a dramatic increase in jihad war ops. March 2009, he floats the idea that he will talk to violent, genocidal Hamas. March 2009, he demands, recruits and insists that more Muslim Americans work in the Obama administration. April 2009, Obama tells Europe to admit Islamic Turkey into EU, much to the consternation of the Europeans. April 2009, Obama demands non-Muslims respect Islam (despite our differences) in a speech in Turkey. April 2009, Obama in a speech from Turkey: "We are not a Christian nation." April 2009, Dalia Mogahed, the first hijab-clad senior adviser to Obama on Muslim affairs says in an interview with terrorist- and jihad-supporting Sheik Yusuf Qaradawi's website, "Many have claimed that terrorists have 'hijacked Islam'. I disagree. I think Islam is safe and thriving in the lives of Muslims around the world. What the terrorists have been allowed to take over are Muslim grievances." In April 2009, Obama lays groundwork for a partnership with Hamas. May 2009, Obama promises to offer his "personal commitment" to Muslims. May 2009, Obama calls America "one of the largest Muslim countries on the planet." June 2009, Obama invites the Muslim Brotherhood, violent global jihadist group whose sole objective is a universal caliphate, to his speech to the ummah (Muslim community) in Cairo. June 2009, Obama makes a stunning speech to the Muslim world from Al Azhar University in Cairo. It defies explanation. July 2009, Obama reaches out to the violent jihadists of Hezb'allah. July 2009, Obama creates a new office at the State department, Outreach to the Worldwide Muslim community, reporting directly to Hillary Clinton. July 2009 State Department Welcomes Hamas Mouthpiece, Al-Quds TV, to DC to Film Propaganda. Obama promises to close GITMO. Obama is rebuked when plans are revealed for CIA prosecutions for 911 interrogations: Seven Ex-chiefs of CIA Oppose Case Review: ALL Sign letter to Stop CIA Persecutions. In July, Obama sanctions the brutal crackdown of those marching for freedom in Iran and sides with the mullahcracy. He stands silent about the Iranian regime's mass executions, mass rape and murder. July 2009, Obama plans to slash US nuclear arsenal. September 2009. Bolton on Obama at the UN: "This is the most radical anti-Israel speech I can recall any president making" "I have to say I was very shaken by this speech." October 2009, Obama offers millions in Muslim technology fund. November 2009, Fort Hood Jihad Cover up: Obama Urges Congress To Put Off Fort Hood Probe, Warns Against Turning Tragedy Into "Political Theater." November 2009, Obama offers the Taliban control of the Kandahar, Helmand, Oruzgan, Kunar and Nuristan provinces, in return for a halt to the Taliban missile attacks on U.S. bases. November 2009, Obama Reaches out to bloody Jihadis in the Philippines. On Thanksgiving eve, Obama issues a special Hajj message to the world's Muslims. December 2009, Obama's "Non-Religious" White House Christmas and No Christmas Gifts for his Kids. February 2010, Obama names a Hafiz to the Organization of the Islamic Conference. "And as a hafiz of the Koran, [Hussain] is a respected member of the American Muslim community," Obama said in his message to the Doha meeting, using the term for someone who has mastered and memorized the Muslim holy book. February 2010, Obama cuts US space program, orders NASA to work with Muslim countries. February 2010, covering up for jihadists in the White House. Obama's counter terrorism adviser, John Brennan, Involved in Obama Passport Breach. March 2010, Obama Obsession with Islam: Calls 'entrepreneurship summit' with Muslims. April 2010, Libyan Pres Gaddafi Praises Obama: "Barakeh Obama is friend" "He is of Muslim descent, his policy should be supported...." May 2010, Obama's Counterterrorism Adviser Calls Jihad "Legitimate Tenet of Islam." May 2010, White House Pro-Terrorism John Brennan Speechifies in Arabic, Equates Terrorists with Shoplifters, Lawmakers Call for his Firing. June 2010, Obama equivocates on the jihad warship convoy (affectionately named a "flotilla" by the media): Obama "Expressed a Deep Regret Over Loss of [Jihadist] Life." June 2010, Obama Administration to Support Anti-Israel Resolution at UN. http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/06/-obama-tells-egyptian-foreign-minister-i-am-a-muslim-stealth-coup-on-the-white-house.html |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. And so the news media is mute about people in Gaza starving? . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
It's hard to tell, Jen. One of my granddaughter's was very tiny like that, still is. She looks about two years younger than others her age. Her arms and legs are like sticks, but she is healthy, agile and a great little gymnast. The doctor said she is just small. The other two were more normal in size, maybe even a little on the chubby side as babies. But the children in the video are eating, so no, they aren't starving. |
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Denise
Moderator
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since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
That's frightening, Michael. I knew some of those things, but most I'd never heard. So much this guy does just flies under the radar, doesn't it? I guess some of it happened when we had our attention diverted elsewhere like on healthcare and deficits. Hmmmm....maybe that was the plan. You miss what the one hand is doing when you are focused on the other. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Jesus would weep. Anyway, Kwashiorkor syndrome. Check it out. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Mike, I think Obama’s only true faith is in his own superiority, (I can’t remember a president so openly patronizing, even scornful). I think he’s confident in the gullibility of enough to get what he wants and to him that is all that matters. What does he want? It may be as simple as payback. I think his first allegiance is to his ego. . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
You may want to recheck that baby for the symptoms of Kwoshiorkor Syndrome, Jen. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Nah,I'll just wait for you to send me a pic of it in gymnastics class. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Nothing to hide then release all the tapes: Israel Must Release the Full Raid Tapes “If the Israeli government is convinced they took the appropriate action in this case, they can go a long way toward proving that by giving us the whole tape. If not, we have to assume they're hiding something. That opens them up to justifiable speculation as to what they really did on board that ship. In the end, nine passengers were killed and dozens more shot and wounded. How did that happen? Was it in any way justifiable? There's only one way to know. Release the tapes.” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/israel-must-release-the-f_b_598116.html After having stormed the vessels, the detained activists said Israeli forces confiscated all mobile phones, laptops, and cash. http://www.israel-palestinenews.org/2010/06/detained-flotilla-activist-i-saw-blood.html |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
John, I think you hit the male on the head. Payback is exactly what he wants... |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Nothing to hide...heh. I wonder if HuffPo will ever get around to demanding full disclosure from Obama. Release your records! Like a birth certificate, school records, college transcripts, passport and selective service records, financial aid records, medical history, ya know, just the normal stuff every President has released. NAH. Won't every happen. Interesting...I heard that Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian President, and Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptian president, support the blockade. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
"I heard that Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian President, and Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptian president, support the blockade." Where did you hear that, Denise? I've seen several sources quoting Abbas as saying "The Israeli blockade on the Palestinian crossings in Gaza should end once and for all" so I'd really like to read anything that disputes that quote. Also, since Egypt has opened their border indefinitely to "human traffic", last I read, doesn't seem to make much sense they'd say they support the blockade. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
We had a previous discussion about missiles, Mike. I did not ask you to supply sources. I did not ask you to clarify your time-line. I did not ask you to be specific about which missiles came from where and which responses came from where and what was the proportionality of each. Should you wish to follow up on the ridiculous discussion about who did what to whom first, and since you're trying to start chucking numbers around that I think are unimportant and show only that everybody's got a right to be steamed at everybody else, please be prepared to supply the details and sources of those numbers should you wish to continue. I'd very much like to know where you got that sort of number and what the likelihood is of it being anything related to reality. My belief is that everybody is acting badly and believes they're right. Apparently you believe something different. Exactly what would that be, so we can get the dimensions of this out on the table? I happen to believe that the Palestinians and the Israelis are reacting badly. You might disprove this by showing that one side or the other is reacting brilliantly and in a praiseworthy fashion. In that case, you'd have to explain why everybody doesn't find that to be obvious, and why praise is not universally heaped on one party to the absolute exclusion of the other. Moral, praiseworthy and ethical behavior would more or less be self evident and acclaimed, as it was on the part of Mandela or Ghandi, given a bit of time for things to clarify. Say thirty or forty or fifty years. What we have here is a world-wide discussion about the idiocy of brothers. Some people favor one, some people favor the other. You have a position that says that the Israelis are right and the Palestinians are wrong. I hope you will be able to correct me here and say, once again, Bob, you ignorant Personage, you've got it wrong. This is the mother of getting it wrong. Now Grinch might say, The Palestinians are right and the Israelis are wrong; I don't know. I'd disagree with that, too. I think they're pretty much mirror images of the evil in each other and mirror images of the best in each other as well. Brothers are often that way. That's why they often bang each other's heads on the floor. What happens every time some fool launches a missile into Israel from someplace remotely muslim? What's Israeli policy? With luck it's only the house that's torn down. Say your Ex wants to get back at you and hires somebody to launch a patriotic rocket in the direction of Israel — do you think she knows a better place to fire it from? You're out of town. Maybe I'm simply being paranoid, of course. It'd never happen. Never. When was that vacation again, Mike? |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Starvation? I suspect there was and is some, but that it is more from how closely the food supply supplied is being matched to the food needed. Money ends up making an enormous difference in the equity of the distribution and some folks end up on the short end of things. I had a quick search through some of the literature and this seems some of the middle of the road stuff. You can find material to the left and the right of it, if you want. Hope you find this a decent starting place at least. http://rete-eco.it/it/gruppi-ebraici/jvfp/6991-israel-deliberately-keeps-gaza-on-the-edge-of-starvation-.html http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=171509 http://www.haaretz.com/news/un-human-rights-official-gaza-evokes-memories-of-warsaw-ghetto-1.268743 http://dissidentvoice.org/2010/05/israels-exclusion-and-restriction-of-goods-to-gaza/ http://baltimorechronicle.com/2010/051910Lendman.shtml |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Here you go, Jen: The Palestinian Authority and Egypt oppose lifting Israel's naval blockade of the Gaza Strip but both call for easing the overland flow of goods to Gaza's 1.5 million residents. PA President Mahmoud Abbas made his position known to US President Barack Obama at a meeting in the White House last Wednesday. According to European diplomatic sources quoted in the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, Mr Abbas said the blockade should remain in place to avoid bolstering Hamas, which has ruled the coastal strip since seizing it from the PA three years ago. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/mahmoud-abbas-and-egypt-want-israels-gaza-blockade-to-stay/story-e6frg6so-1225879176545 Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is opposed to lifting the naval blockade of the Gaza Strip because this would bolster Hamas, according to what he told United States President Barack Obama during their meeting at the White House Wednesday. Egypt also supports this position. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/abbas-to-obama-i-m-against-lifting-the-gaza-naval-blockade-1.295771 |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Thanks Denise. Here's what I have: Direct quotes, named sources, not “reportedlies”- Abbas: We demand an end to Gaza siege; entire world stands with us http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/abbas-we-demand-an-end-to-gaza-siege-entire-world-stands-with-us-1.295409[/URL] "The Israeli blockade on the Palestinian crossings in Gaza should end once and for all" http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=129937§ionid=351020202[/URL] http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hYYJV8c2wdSSrCUc9f68vgl31MRw TARGET=_blank>http://timesofindia.indiatimes. com/world/middle-east/Mahmud-Abbas-says-Gaza-flotilla-probe-should-not-be-left-to-Israel/articleshow/6034677.cms[/URL] http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hYYJV8c2wdSSrCUc9f68vgl31MRw And this - “Another attempt to distort facts” “Describing the report as "absurd" and baseless, the PLO official said it "lacks any credible source, can be so irresponsibly published." PA denies report Abbas maintaining Gaza siege Chief PLO negotiator Saeb Erekat, who accompanied Abbas on his US visit, further denounced the report that the Palestinian leader had requested a continuation of the blockade. On Sunday, he said the accusation was "yet another disinformation attempt aimed at distorting facts and deflecting Israel’s responsibility to end the illegal and inhuman siege on Gaza," a statement read. “President Abbas has been demanding complete and unconditional lifting of Israel’s illegal siege over Gaza, which he reiterated during his recent meetings with World leaders.” On the same day, the Israeli daily newspaper Haaretz reported that Abbas was opposed to lifting the naval blockade of the Gaza Strip because it would bolster Hamas, allegedly putting forward his stance to Obama during their meeting last Wednesday at the White House. "The issue has been and will continue to be the main focus in all our discussions until our people in Gaza are free and the occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem is ended," Erekat said. Describing the report as "absurd" and baseless, the PLO official said it "lacks any credible source, can be so irresponsibly published." "The illegal blockade has nothing to do with the Hamas since Gaza has been closed long before Hamas took control. Israel must end its unlawful blockade. Until then, Israel has certain obligations under international law to provide for the local population," Erekat said. http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=291696 |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Contradictory statements. Only Obama knows for sure what Abbas said to him! Who knows for sure. I'd place my bets for truthfulness coming more from the European Diplomats rather than a spokesperson for the PLO, though. But I could be wrong. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Who were the European diplomats at the meeting? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "THE Palestinian Authority and Egypt oppose lifting Israel's naval blockade of the Gaza Strip " makes sense . . . Hamas is a friend to neither. . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
You forgot to add - "according to European diplomatic sources" - unnamed, not at the meeting but with superfantastic intercontinental hearing abilities? But it does make sense Abbas would say that, he's been Israel's beotch nearly as long as the US has. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Hey, Mike, I checked out that source you gave on the list you posted. The whole point of the article was to prove that President Obama had said to the Egyptian foreign minister that he was a Muslim and had a secret muslim agenda. The whole reason why is that The Egyptian foreign Minister had announced (according to the folks on this web site) that the President had confided to him this tidbit in confidence. The web site made a big deal about how none of the main stream media had carried this blockbuster story. I figure there are a couple of possibilities for this. One is that the web site is right, and that there is an international conspiracy to keep this vital piece of information out of the hands of the righteous of the world. One of the others is that the other news sources heard the same stories and evaluated it as to likelihood of being accurate or real and put a significance level of roughly F minus on it. Given the fuss the site makes about Pay-pal no longer being willing to work with them, I know which side of the spectrum of the choices I'd go for. Given the same information, I know which side of the spectrum you'd go for. And apparently have. Or perhaps you're simply trying to make your source look artificially more solid than it is. It looks to me, having actually read the article, like they're running out of money for aluminum foil and the gamma rays may be getting through. I wonder how many other secret muslims they see around them in Israel and The United States? It looks like General Petraeus may be about to be added to the list, if the stuff they're saying about his negative attitude toward Israel is true. Wow, I simply thought he was a General and didn't, you know, have it in for Israel. Shows what I know. Shows what impossible standards I have for my sources, too. I guess this is an example of something you think isn't part of what the former Governor of Alaska would call "The Lame-stream media," huh? Perhaps you advocate more publications like this and fewer like The Christian Science Monitor or The Economist orThe Times? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "The web site made a big deal about how none of the main stream media had carried this blockbuster story." Like people starving in Gaza. . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yes, Bob, we have seen the "impossible standards" you have heaped on your sources....such a the Electric Lawyer, a nameless, faceless somebody or nobody with no credentials given who simply says "Defense-biased criminal law case summaries from California, the Ninth Circuit, and the U.S. Supreme Court. And other stuff I want to talk about. Deal with it." You quoted four different links from this mystery man. If that's an indication of the high standards you set for your sources, no wonder you're lost. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
This is rather interesting info about the Gaza tunnels. Pics of the tunnels are all over the net for our doubting Thomases who’d care to check. Anyway, begs the question, if Israel is so concerned about security, worried about rocket making materials coming into Gaza, then why do they leave so many of the tunnels operational, wide open for smuggling in rocket making materials? No jam or coriander allowed in aid shipments coming through the front door, but more or less turning a blind eye to anything at all coming through the back door. “The tunnels are not at all hard to find. In the southern Gazan town of Rafah, right on the border, there are lines of them covered by white tents. Little attempt is made to keep them secret. They are surrounded by huge mounds of sandy earth which have been dug out of the ground. The air is thick with diesel fuel from the trucks that transport the goods across the Gaza strip. The openness of the smuggling operation suggests that if Israel and Egypt really wanted to stop the tunnels they could easily do so. Israel has at times bombed some of the tunnels, but has stopped short of totally shutting them down.“ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8664316.stm |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Perhaps you missed the place where The Electric Lawyer Site said at the top of the page that the site was "defense-biased." It said exactly what it was about, and I made no attempt to present it as anything else. Is there some reason you thought otherwise? If so, name it. I thought you got the point. Where would you have gotten the notion that I meant more than that? I thought the author of the site was very clear, and that I need not make claims for him that he did not intend and that I did not intend either. Perhaps you wanted me to make larger claims for the site than I did. Sorry, Mike, but I didn't. I certainly did make a point of saying why I thought your reference was somewhat deceptive. And I notice that you offer no criticism of of the points I raised. I thought they were cogent when I raised them, and I still do. The site you used as a reference was considerably less than you have done and know well how to do, and the point of the site was an attempt to prove that The President and much of the military establishment of the United States is in a conspiracy against Israel. The part you quoted was an almost incidental outgrowth of that poisonous pap. I invite anybody interested to go to your reference, read the article in question and make up their own minds. Surely you could have made your point without using material of that sort, and made it just as well if not better. I'm not bothered by your disagreement, here, Mike. The disagreement is reasonably small, whether Israel is in the right and the Palestinians in the wrong or whether they're both doing savage and unnecessary damage to each other to the benefit of neither. If you're going to make your point, make it with solid facts. For heaven's sake, you like and respect General Petraeus and the U.S. military in general. [This message has been edited by Bob K (06-14-2010 07:51 PM).] |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "This is rather interesting info about the Gaza tunnels. Pics of the tunnels are all over the net for our doubting Thomases who’d care to check. Anyway, begs the question, if Israel is so concerned about security, worried about rocket making materials coming into Gaza, then why do they leave so many of the tunnels operational, wide open for smuggling in rocket making materials? No jam or coriander allowed in aid shipments coming through the front door, but more or less turning a blind eye to anything at all coming through the back door." So you believe that they are operational and the Israelis know where they are? So you believe they are operational and yet Gaza is starving? . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Question 1 Answer - Absolutely, some of the tunnels are operational and clearly visible! Question 2 Answer - Yes, I believe there are “starving” babies, children and adults in Gaza. The tunnels are operational, black market food supplies from Egypt are extremely expensive and something like 40% of Gazans are unemployed. 80% of the population depends on food aid and the aid is about 25% of what it was in 2006. Do you have credible sources to prove otherwise? Why do you think Israel hasn’t (didn't even during operation Cast Lead) destroyed all the tunnels? Not a sarcastic question, I’m really just trying to figure it out. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. You're asking to prove a negative? I think they destroy all they can find and get to, or if they do indeed leave one open, it would be to find out who comes out and where they go. . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Not really asking to prove a negative, just asking for credible sources that might show the statements/facts I’ve found/posted are wrong. I thought about that, wondered if the Israelis were trying to find where smuggled weapons/rockets, etc. were being stashed. But after I did some research, found out there were many, many tunnels and volume of materials being smuggled was off the chart, to my mind seemed impossible they could track or even know every item coming in. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "volume of materials being smuggled was off the chart" So the blockade is wholly ineffectual? The rocket attacks continue at their same rate as before? . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
So why exactly did you give 4 links to that site, Bob? "I invite anybody interested to go to your reference, read the article in question and make up their own minds." So do I. That's why I posted the link. You are the only one to have a problem with it. btw, I don't respond to things I think not worthy or responses. Just so you know.... |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Seems to me the blockade is pretty ineffectual when banned items are slipping in through the back door daily. Fewer rockets being fired doesn’t mean they don’t exist, aren’t coming in, aren’t being stockpiled. Or perhaps what is coming in, maybe being stockpiled, could even be more dangerous or more deadly? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: If the object of the exercise is to cut off the supply of rockets into Gaza the blockade isn’t working. If the object of the exercise is to inflict suffering on the people of Gaza the blockade is a rip roaring success. Jen, The tunnels are out in the open only on the Egyptian side of the border, in Gaza the entrances are generally in the cellars of buildings to avoid detection. The Israelis target any they discover. In operation Cast Lead for instance they claimed that they’d destroyed 2850 suspected tunnel entrances on the Gaza side, leaving an estimated 150 undiscovered and intact. When trying to work out what goes through the tunnels you need to remember that they’re private enterprise ventures – each costing up to $80,000 to excavate – consequently they’re used to transport only the things that can return a healthy profit in Gaza. Food for the masses who can’t pay the high asking prices, unfortunately, isn’t on that list. . |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Have the supply of rockets been decreased, (has the rate of attacks and or number of rockets fired decreased)? . |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Has the supply of rockets decreased? Probably not. The price for transporting them through the tunnels will have risen though, but Saudi Arabia has deep pockets so that won't effect demand. My guess is that the ratio of weapons to luxury goods being transported through the Egyptian/ Gaza tunnels has probably increased. So there’s no need to worry Huan - The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades aren’t likely to run short of rockets any time soon. . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Thanks Grinch, appreciate the info. But now I have even more questions. Later on those. When/if you have a chance could you recommend sources, books, etc., please? Thanks! |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. A simple question is is Hamas which governs Gaza in a proclaimed war against Israel? If yes, what is Israel supposed to do in defense of its own citizens? . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Let’s see, Israel has confined Gaza civilians as well as Hamas members in an open air prison, cut food supplies, medical supplies, withheld materials needed to repair/maintain the power, water purification, sewage disposal plants, homes destroyed in operation cast lead, bombed civilians trapped in that prison, and effectively occupied the strip from outside the wall. A better question might be what should Hamas do to defend the citizens of Gaza? The borders were closed before Hamas, weren't they, Israel controlled who and what entered and left the strip? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Yes and No. Technically it’s classified as a conflict though Israel are accepted by the international community to be an occupying force, controlling both airspace and territorial waters. quote: The same thing that the Turkish, to their credit, did recently. Seek a diplomatic solution. Or do you think it would have been preferable if Turkey declared a state of war? Under international law they’re well within their rights to do so and Turkey could quite easily blockade Israel. They have the largest navy in the Mediterranean, the third largest in Europe. Their air force is one of the largest in NATO and they have the second largest standing army, second only to the US in that organisation. Not to mention that they have nuclear capability. What should Turkey do in defence of their citizens Huan? What about the Palestinians – what should they do? After all the Israelis have killed more Palestinians than the Palestinians have killed Israelis. Should they sit back and ignore the attacks on their citizens, or are they right to defend themselves? Jen I’m a little reluctant to recommend any single source, most of them are biased in one way or another and even those trying to be even-handed fall victim to using allegedly universally known facts that often turn out to be anything but factual. This is useful, but don’t take everything they say as 100% true - they have an agenda too. http://www.btselem.org/Download/2009_Annual_Report_Eng.pdf . |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
I have seen no evidence of such a proclamation, John. Perhaps other folks have a better notion of counterintelligence strategy than I do, but the way I understand things is that if you have identified a situation, like a tunnel or an agent in place, it is often better to let the situation keep functioning in an ambiguous fashion. That is, you can choose at any point to shut it down, but while it functions, you are able to trace much of the information and materiel that flows through. You end up with a much more valuable asset if you continue to allow it to function and to expose the various distribution pipelines through which the information and materiel flows and through which management of the asset arrives. It becomes a gift that keeps on giving for you. If you shut it down, you may stop the flow of information and materiel for an undetermined amount of time, but the other folks involved, the enemy, will always be clear which information and which agents are compromised and which aren't. If you shut down some, then you introduce a certain amount of paranoia into the situation, which becomes better, and makes the enemy turn on his own agents in an almost random fashion, depending on which stresses you place on their system. Skillfully done, one intelligence system can make another virtually dismantle itself. It becomes almost impossible to distinguish between information and disinformation, reality and fantasy. Some would say the the old KGB had the CIA in this bind through much of the cold war, and used the CIA counterintelligence chief James Jesus Angelton to destroy the effectiveness of the Agency from within with a series of internal witch-hunts. Some say that Angleton may have been a KGB Double himself. Some say that Angleton never succeeded in reaching the bottom of the most devious set of espionage maneuvers in history and died a broken man. Whatever the truth, this has the hallmarks of a brilliant operation, leading back to the very beginnings of the cold war. What we're talking about in Gaza, leaving functional tunnels in place is simply standard operating procedure. The economics of the thing suggest that food and relief supplies would probably crowd out war materiel for the majority of the smuggled goods, and that the guns versus butter issues, as economists like to call this sort of thing, has probably reached some sort of market equilibrium. Evidence? One might examine the number of trucks full of food coming in versus the number of body bags being buried and see if there is some sort of change on one side or the other. A marked change in one or the other would suggest market forces have shifted in one or the other direction. Our figures aren't all that good, as the fudging we've witnessed so far would seem to suggest, but the figures would probably have to be clear and steady, amounting to a trend, and that should be visible. What are my sources? This is an analysis of data and a piece of opinion, and as such, I'm not offering that sort of support. I'm using data that you folks have supplied and sorting it the best I can. What I actually know for sure about any of this could be written on a grain of sand with room left over for battalions of angels to hold polka elimination night. To those of you who find this obvious, my apologies. I do go on. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "A better question might be what should Hamas do to defend the citizens of Gaza? " Oh please. If you are a citizen of Gaza and openly disagree with Hamas you don't have to worry about Israel. The best thing Hamas could do for the people of Gaza is leave. . |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Hamas is the legally elected and freely choses government of Gaza, John. Nobody said you had to love them. Leaving might feel like they best thing they could go from the standpoint of the Likud, but nobody seems to think that the Likud had a right to vote in Palestinian elections but the Likud and perhaps the American hard Right, who seems to feel that Democracy is reserved for those we like and whom we feel agree with us. I wonder what the outcome would have been if the English Crown had been given a vote in the American elections in the early years of the United States, hmmm? |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34jPNN0qdF8&feature=channel |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1kt8qi0M-M&feature=channel |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. How are things on the West Bank? . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Is the Google broken? Anyway, a couple of articles to get you started until it comes up again, or whatever. Occupiers, Israeli forces clash over demolishing illegal settlement structure http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article62925.ece "The only way that Gazans will be able to rebuild their lives and livelihoods is for the siege to be lifted completely," Goin told IPS. "There is currently on average seven hours of power cuts daily. The power cuts pose a serious risk to the treatment of patients - and to their very lives. "It takes two to three minutes for a generator to begin operating, and during that time electronic devices do not function. As a result, artificial respirators must be reactivated manually, dialysis treatment is disrupted and surgery is suspended as operating theaters are plunged into darkness," says the ICRC. "Additionally, it took us five months to get permission to bring in a mammograph for Shifa Hospital, Gaza's main hospital. It took another five months before the Israelis would allow in a dialysis machine, and it took us eight months to bring in spare parts for ambulances," Goin told IPS. "There is a shortage of essential medicines such as anti-epileptic drugs, and a shortage of medical equipment such as ventilator tubes. More than 110 of the 700 disposable items that should be available are also out of stock. The health situation is critical." Life is obviously much better for Palestinians in the West Bank, but Israel's continued occupation of the territory also damages the fabric of life there. "Palestinian movement there has improved with Israel's reduction of checkpoints and roadblocks. But there is still a problem for Palestinians moving from the northern West Bank to the south as the territory is effectively divided into cantons," Gaylard told IPS. "There has also been some improvement in the West Bank's economy due to fiscal stimulus, limited investment and the payment of salaries on a regular basis. But this needs to be made sustainable by Palestinians being able to access their productive assets such as farmland," added Gaylard. Israel's separation barrier has divided farmers from their agricultural fields and confiscated large swathes of Palestinian land for illegal settlement development and "security". "The lack of an equitable distribution of water is another issue with Israelis getting the bulk of the area's water supplies and Palestinians having to survive on the remainder," said Gaylard. West Bankers also have access to plentiful petrol and the limited water they have is fit for consumption, unlike Gazans whose underground water resources have been polluted by sewage, pesticides, chemicals and sea water. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LF17Ak04.html |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
"the announcement that toys and food will be allowed into Gaza is also a stunning indictment." |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
All in all, I don't find it an impressive humanitarian record on the part of the Israelis. Everybody feels fully justified in treating each other as miserably as they do, and conditions don't seem likely to change until both parties improve their standards of care, treatment and respect for the other, in the face of all logic, which certainly suggests it's prudent to defend yourself against all dangers foreign and domestic. It's pretty amazing how many human dilemmas come down to this single turning point, isn't it? I need to look up the exact quote from Auden, but it's something like We must love one another or die. Auden was always making things look good, though; as if we had a choice about death, when in fact all we have the choice about is love. We don't have to love, it only makes living better when we do. And, yeah, some religions might suggest more. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
“JERUSALEM — Tens of thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews took to the streets of this city on Thursday to accompany dozens of Hasidic parents who were on their way to prison for two weeks after refusing to comply with a Supreme Court ruling against ethnic segregation in their children’s school. This latest battle in Israel’s simmering culture war, pitting the country’s ultra-Orthodox Ashkenazim of European origin against their slightly less stringent ultra-Orthodox Sephardic peers from Arab and North African backgrounds, has raised accusations of racism on one side and infringement of religious freedom on the other. But on Thursday, most ultra-Orthodox streams were united in protest against what they see as state meddling in their religious affairs and in their conviction that the religious law of the Torah — or at least their interpretation of it — transcends that of any Israeli court. “ http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/18/world/middleeast/18israel.html |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Baby formula is a threat to Israel’s security? Flotilla Survivor says Israeli marines boarded unarmed American ship throwing grenades http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElX0zpZdoew&feature=related "To destroy the seed of Amalek" |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
"Helen Thomas was certainly insensitive and out of line in stating that Israelis should return to Poland or Germany. However, she did not gratuitously kill anybody, which is more than can be said of Israel. Furthermore, her larger point was quite valid that Israel is occupying Palestinian lands and, I might add, criminally and inhumanely. This is America's business because it is primarily U.S. complicity in these crimes that provokes terrorist attacks against us. It is a primary reason Americans are suffering and dying in Afghanistan and Iraq. Israel and its U.S. supporters now urge a U.S. war against Iran and expect U.S. support in any war they provoke. Most current U.S. economic, security and military problems are due substantially to these unnecessary or badly managed wars conducted in part to enhance Israel's security. The U.S. special relationship with Israel is increasingly becoming a one-way street. If the U.S. is determined to underwrite Israel's security with American blood and money, Israel is obligated to cooperate with the U.S. in seeking peace. If Israel refuses, the U.S. should cut ties with Israel, and then work to impose sanctions on it." Malcolm D. McPhee |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "Israel was established on a sliver of British Mandatory Palestine. There was no pre-existing Palestinian Arab country. The mandate, confirmed by the League of Nations and reaffirmed by the United Nations, facilitated re-establishment of the Jewish people in their ancient homeland. Jewish immigration and economic development attracted Arab migration into what would become Israel. That migration and Arab massacres of Jews led Britain to bar further Jewish return. This accounted for the "Palestinian majority" in 1948. The equality of Israeli Arabs and Jews from diverse ethnic backgrounds demonstrates that Israel claims no "ethnic supremacy." Rather than "privileging Jews," Israel upholds rights of religious minorities, including Christians and Muslims — unlike Muslim countries, including Saudi Arabia and Iran. As for being "sustained only by violence," Israel has peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan. Its offers to the Palestinian leadership of a West Bank and Gaza Strip state in exchange for peace have been rejected, usually with violence." http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/letters/2010-06-18-letters18_ST_N.htm Malcolm D. McPhee:Sequim, Wash.'s response, to this article, which you cite seems not to care . . . . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
“Never to settle in the land of Egypt” |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
There is, according to some of my Israeli friends, a system of ethnic and racial bias in Israel the same as there is here. The darker your skin, for the most part, the lower on the social scale you are. Morrocan Jews are fairly low on the scale. One of my Israeli friends got quite a large amount of flak for dating a Moroccan Jewish guy, her first boyfriend, and she tells me the experience is quite common. While there are a fair number of Israeli Arabs, they encounter a certain amount of difficulty, I'm told, from the same and other Israeli sources. While there really should be no discrimination ideally, there may well be in fact. This is a function, I believe, of the mutual paranoia with which Arab and Israeli tend to treat each other in that neck of the woods. The best of intentions are difficult to carry though in such an atmosphere. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "There is, according to some of my Israeli friends, a system of ethnic and racial bias . . ." What are you responding to? . |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Sorry, John, I should have been more clear. I didn't mean to confuse. quote: |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l6EzAdkomw&feature=related http://lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/victims.html |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
The first video states that 125 Israeli children were killed. How many Palestinian children were killed by the Israelis, Denise, during those same 10 years? |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
How many children were killed in Gaza during the three weeks of Operation Cast Lead, Denise? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Hamas has been known to kill Palestinian civilians, including children, and then blame it on Israel. I don't suppose there is any definitive way to know how many were inadvertently killed by Israel. They are extremely careful not to kill civilians. At any rate, Hamas is responsible for all of them, directly or indirectly. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Save your typing, Grinch. Stone. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I don’t know Jen, if Denise applies the same rule to Iraq and Afghanistan and concludes that America is responsible for all the deaths in those conflicts, couldn’t that be considered progress? . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Sorry, Grinch, I’m usually pretty unflappable when it comes to reading heartless, callous comments in this forum, but have to say after reading a certain one, I think I know how it must feel to be hit by a stun grenade. Later, I need a cool cloth and a lie down. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
quote: You really ought to provide some sort of mainstream source for this, Denise. "Have been known" covers a lot of ground. Much of it may well be spurious. All of it is, at this point, hearsay in its most literal meaning, and overall it carries the authority of any particularly nasty piece of gossip. Should you wish to go beyond the grounds of hearsay, innuendo, smear and gossip, some sort of formal attribution will be needed. I use these words, I believe, well within their established dictionary meanings. Though I am not a zionist, I was born Jewish and I will, I'm certain, die that way. I am familiar with the various source materials you've laid out about the terrible attacks against Jews and Israelis over the years, and I don't dispute them. The people who perpetrated these attacks should have been punished. Some no doubt were. But. You are looking at only a portion of the picture. Even when others try to show you other pieces of the picture, you remain uninterested. The pieces that both Grinch and Jennifer have showed you are accurate as well. Those new pieces do not mean that the pieces you have and which you have insisted upon, quite righteously, I believe, are wrong. Those new pieces, however, because they too are real, do mean that there is another righteous side to the picture that is also real, and which requires earnest attention. Unlike Jennifer and Grinch, I can't say that that the Palestinians are in the right here. I may be misunderstanding their positions, certainly, when I characterize them in this way; I don't know. But I do understand that the facts and figures that Jennifer and Grinch are offering are on the up-and-up. For each of the lists that you offer of terrible things done by the Palestinians, one could be offered that would list terrible things done by the Israelis. When all was said and done, the lists would both be longer than you would care to look at, and would provide stomach churning upset. There would probably be more atrocities committed by the Israelis because the Israelis are an organized state with an organized army and a coherent policy. Organized madmen can do more damage than mere berserkers any day of the week, mostly because they care about surviving long enough to do it again. My opinion. The figures, however, speak for themselves, and Grinch's are the ones that I'm familiar with. I came upon an interesting reading of the "eye for an eye" section of the bible while I was, if memory serves, reading Everett Fox's translation of The Torah. The idea is that the eye for an eye is not an injunction that you should go out and take an eye for a lost eye, but that it is a limit on vengeance: That one should do no more than take an eye for an eye. That would place the injunction within the mainstream of much of western legal thought, indeed, would make it part of the foundation of that thought. And that suggests that what the Israelis have been doing may have enabled their survival, but the cost of their doing so may have established the sort of feud that the biblical injunction was designed to avert by extracting unjust retribution and then provoking in return their own unjust retribution. This particular way of carrying out the "Never Again!" policy, has, in effect, with its draconian methodology, ensured that there will be a "Next Time!" and that the cycle of violence must continue. Every time you tear down the house of an innocent, you create a family or a tribe of enemies with a real injustice to avenge. And that is just one of the most superficial layers of the problem. Tossing in comments like the ones you ventured above simply don't come to grips with the issues, and they don't come to grips with the facts of much of what the Israelis are doing on an ongoing basis. As John Clare said, "I am the self-creator of my woe." And while that applies to all of us to some extent, it certainly applies in full measure here to the Israelis, and yes, to a lesser extent but still in full measure to the Palestinians. After all, you can only mess up to the extent that you've got something to mess up in the first place. I'm sure that given a chance the Palestinians will catch up. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I don’t believe either of them are in the ‘right’ Bob – I simply believe that the Israelis are more in the wrong than the Palestinians. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
“They are extremely careful not to kill civilians.” Right, we saw how careful they were in Lebanon, Gaza and most recently on the Flotilla where they “inadvertently” shot many civilians, including a teenager shot several times in the head from a distance of approximately 18cm. Were you able to find those figure’s Denise?. How many Palestinian children were killed during the last 10 years and how many children were killed in Gaza during the three weeks of Operation Cast Lead? Still waiting to hear from anyone on why baby formula was banned. Is it some sort of rocket fuel, material Hammas might use in building bunkers? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
It all comes down to which side you believe is more credible. To me Israel is more credible. There isn't a moral equivalency between the two in my view. Israel goes out of its way to avoid civilian deaths. Hamas targets civilians deliberately, even to the extent of shooting babies in their beds, and just like Hezbolah, uses its own citizens as human shields. Hamas would not have problems with Israel if they would stop attacking them. It's as simple as that. As long as they continue to launch attacks, Israel will respond in defense. Any deaths that occur will be on the hands of Hamas. The number of dead and wounded on either side is not an indicator of the rightness or wrongness of either side. The indicator is motive and intent. Hamas is motivated by hatred of Israel and the intent to wipe it off the face of the earth. It's written in their charter. Israel's intent is to protect itself and its people from those madmen. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Intent may be interesting if you're doing psychotherapy. Indeed, I find it very interesting. But in diplomacy, I'm not sure it's so useful. To begin with, how do you trust the intent of the people on the other side of the table? From their own account? My experience is that trust of the other is a sometimes thing. Perhaps, Denise, your experience is different. Why then should the Israelis or the Palestinians trust each other? Neither of them have proven trustworthy over time, at least in terms of the other. We have never found it particularly dependable to put our trust in either party. Each will go back on its word at the drop of a hat if they feel their own self interest demands it; nor would we, really, expect differently. Suggesting the Israelis are more trustworthy than the Palestinians is foolish — trustworthy to do what? I suspect we are fortunate that we can trust either of them not to cut their own throats, they are so mad for revenge, and so wild with mutual loathing and rage. It is not clear that either of them is willing to survive the next 50 years unless the other is dead first. At least some modicum of understanding and love is necessary for that survival to happen and I have no idea where it will come from. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
“The number of dead and wounded on either side is not an indicator of the rightness or wrongness of either side.” Why did you post three links showing how many Israeli’s have been killed, Denise? Why have you twice now avoided mentioning how many Palestinians have been killed? “To me Israel is more credible.” Israel has refused to release all the videos of the Flotilla massacre, instead showing only a brief, edited clip. Israel has admitted to having doctored an audio clip of that event. Israel committed war crimes in Lebanon and Gaza that were captured on video yet they deny any wrongdoing. More credible than what/who? “As long as they continue to launch attacks, Israel will respond in defense.” Is denying infants formula, restricting food and medical aid to civilians a defensive measure or is it a form of collective punishment, a war crime? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Jen, Israel has also announced that it’s going to relax the blockade, I’m guessing that’s the same blockade that they’ve insisted is absolutely necessary and that wasn’t causing unnecessary suffering to the people in Gaza. I spy with my little eye something beginning with lie. If the blockade was necessary and it wasn’t causing hardship, as several people here have insisted, why the heck are Israel going to relax it? |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
My only guess would be that relaxing the blockade might be a set up, Grinch. Maybe Israel is hoping Hamas will start a food fight, lobbing fistfuls of coriander chutney, jam tarts, bags of crisps and sippy bottles full of baby formula over the Wall. Defensive measures would of course then be, not allowing any food into Gaza at all. Anyway, I’m sure Denise will pop in soon to answer your question properly. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I shared the links, Jennifer, to balance out the converstion here. The people of Gaza are not the only ones suffering due to the actions of their elected terrorist government. I don't know what 'relaxing the blockade' entails. If they are giving into International pressure by allowing even one ship to go through without inspecting it, they are being foolish, in my opinion. As for the baby formula, I don't know why that would be a concern, other than the possiblity that explosives could be hidden in it, similar to how we were restricted at the airports from bringing aboard liquids or powders over a certain size and not in approved clear containers, including baby formula, medications, shampoo, etc. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
It appears that the pressure came from Obama. But of course. Will he be held accountable when the missles start flying into Israel again? Nope. It will be Israel's fault. quote: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=168349 |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: That sounds like your pathetic excuse for a leader has some influence with Israel Denise. If he can persuade the Israelis to ease a blockade that they’ve insisted for the last 3 years was absolutely necessary and that wasn’t causing the people of Gaza any duress he deserves some sort of a peace prize. Call me a cynic but if Israel really believed that the blockade was absolutely necessary they’d be telling Obama exactly where he could shove his ‘pressure’. . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Oh to be a fly on the wall in one of those Obama pressure meetings, first with Democratic lawmakers and now with Israel, to bend them to his will. Svengali comes to mind. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Egypt allowed 11 U.S. warships and 1 Israeli Warship to pass through the Suez Canal ahead of the expected Gaza bound Iranian flotilla. Maybe that's what the deal was, to discourage an otherwise sure confrontation between Iran and Israel? http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/138164 |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I've asked you three times to tell how many Palestinian children have been killed by the Israelis, Denise, and three times you've avoided answering the question. Not a problem, I understand. It's rather painful, shameful and embarrassing to acknowledge your tax dollars, about 3 billion a year, are going to a country that killed over three hundred children during a three week period. Being born in Gaza is not only a life imprisonment sentence, far too often it's a death sentence. "The Impact of the Conflict on Children" "124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,441 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. Click chart to enlarge. Source: Remember These Children. (go to link to see chart) “The majority of these [Palestinian] children were killed and injured while going about normal daily activities, such as going to school, playing, shopping, or simply being in their homes. Sixty-four percent of children killed during the first six months of 2003 died as a result of Israeli air and ground attacks, or from indiscriminate fire from Israeli soldiers.” - Catherine Cook Source: Remember These Children, a coalition of groups calling for an end to the killing of children and a fair resolution of the conflict. (View the complete list of the victims, which was last updated on November 20, 2009.) It appears that Remember These Children has not yet documented a number of the Palestinian children killed during Israel's Dec 27, 2008 - Jan 18, 2009 assault on Gaza. They report only 269 of the Palestinian children killed during that time (and an additional 9 who later died from wounds inflicted during that time period). B'Tselem has documented that Israel killed 318 Palestinian children in Gaza during this time. We do not doubt the validity of this higher number as they are extremely careful in their documentation." http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html#source [This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (06-20-2010 05:17 PM).] |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
No, Jen, I'm not ashamed of our support for Israel. And the blame for any deaths in the conflicts lies with Hamas and Hezbolah. If they want peace they can have it. Resolution is quite simple. Stop attacking Israel and its citizens. They could have had peace 60 plus years ago. They choose death and destruction and then cry to the world that they are the victims. When will they start showing concern for their children? It is within their power to make Gaza a safe place for them. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
June 8, 1967, how many rockets had the USS Liberty cruising in international waters fired on Israel when Israel killed 34 of our troops and wounded 174 more and made scrap metal out of the ship? How many holes did Israel shoot in the American flag the ship was flying? How many lifeboats did they machine gun? How many Hamas and Hezbollah were on the Liberty? Israel has massacred with impunity, children, civilians and our own troops, committed egregious war crimes, sucked billions out of our treasury to finance weapons they turned on our own troops, received numerous condemnations and sanctions from the UN and you support them? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the identity of the USS Liberty. In May 1968, the Israeli government paid US$3,323,500 as full payment to the families of the 34 men killed in the attack. In March 1969, Israel paid a further $3,566,457 in compensation to the men who had been wounded. On 18 December 1980, it agreed to pay $6 million as settlement for the U.S. claim of $7,644,146 for material damage to the Liberty itself.[8] On December 17, 1987, the issue was officially closed by the two governments through an exchange of diplomatic notes |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
You "inadvertently" forgot to include this part, from Wiki that was right right between the first two paragraphs you copied and pasted: "Some survivors, in addition to some U.S. diplomats and intelligence officials involved in the incident continue to dispute these official findings, saying the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was not a mistake,[6] and it remains the only major maritime incident in U.S. history not to be investigated by the U.S. Congress.[7]" [This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (06-21-2010 02:02 PM).] |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
And you also failed to mention that all known survivors have classified the attack as deliberate. http://www.uss-liberty.com/2010/06/19/flotilla-attack-mirrors-uss-liberty/ After one American flag was shot through with holes, a larger one was raised, signals were sent identifying the ship as American yet the massacre continued. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was not a mistake." So what would have been the motive? You think the Israelis set out to deliberately kill children in Gaza across its own border anymore than Obama sets out to kill children in Pakistan thousands of miles away from ours? “Relying on the testimony of Hamas terrorists, the Goldstone Report charged that Israel had deliberately targeted Palestinian civilians and had committed war crimes in Gaza. Outside the precincts of the Islamic propaganda machine, however, Israel’s record is in fact that of a nation that is extraordinarily protective of enemy civilians. In testimony ignored by the Goldstone Report, for example, Col. Richard Kemp, the former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, stated: “During Operation Cast Lead [the Israeli response to the Hamas attacks], the Israel Defense Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.” Hamas, by contrast, is notorious for building military headquarters under hospitals, for placing its military forces in refugee camps, and for using women and children as “human shields” to deter attacks. Hamas’s rockets are known to be so inaccurate they cannot be directed against military targets; they can only be used effectively against civilians. In addition, since Hamas’s war against Israel was a response to Israel’s unilateral withdrawal, it was a criminal aggression responsible for all the subsequent casualties, something the Goldstone Report and the U.N. Human Rights Council conveniently overlooked.” http://article.nationalreview.com/436460/obama-and-the-war-against-israel/david-horowitz-jacob-laksin?page=2 . [This message has been edited by Huan Yi (06-21-2010 04:36 PM).] |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
http://www.ussliberty.org/why.htm |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
When, as Isreal did in Cast Lead, you imprison more than half a million children in an area approx. 40km by 10km with no means of escape by land, sea or air and then bomb that area, yes, you are deliberately targeting those children. I’m still trying to sort out why Israel deliberately attacked the Liberty. Right now I’m leaning toward trying to draw us into the war along with to trying to hide their impending attack on the Heights. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
You will find reports of both side behaving badly. Some of the reports will be distorted, many of them will be accurate, as the reports here are accurate. I have serious doubts that, even if anybody should have success in convincing others that the arabs or the Israelis were really the worst people involved in this mess, that the revelation would materially speed the resolution of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. Typically, the discussion simply shifts to another example, where the same issues are rehashed with equal futility. Knowing that I am worse or that you are worse is simply a matter of affixing blame and shame. This distracts from the business of how the two of us — or in the case of the Israelis and the Palestinians, the two of them — are going to form a partnership to do what needs to be done to help each other survive with a certain amount of dignity and pride. If one or the other side is shamed too thoroughly, then the very hope for peace will fester before our eyes. For us to be partisans of one side or the other is to encourage the hope that each side can solve their issues by pursuing their quarrels, when they cannot. Their quarrels can only be solved by a willingness to bring their quarrels to a resolution. This is difficult for them, and it is difficult for us, because we see the injustices piled upon those we feel to be the victims in these quarrels so very clearly, and the injustices are, for the most part, real, no matter whose partisan we are. It's my belief that we need to become partisans for peace and not for the Israelis nor the Palestinians, even though the Palestinians and the Israelis have both had so many crimes committed against them, and have themselves committed so many crimes in what they were sure was their own defense. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "We are frequently asked, "Why did Israel attack?" The motive is irrelevant." Please. . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Does your "Please" mean you think the motive is relevant, there was some justifiable reason for Isreal to torpedo the Liberty, kill and wound over 200 of our troops? Or are you just mocking someone for their opinion on the topic without offering yours for consideration? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Do you really believe Isreal would, knowing it was a U.S. Navy ship, attack it therby endangering the most important ally to its existence. If yes, then you must offer a very good reason why. Some time ago the U.S. bombed Canadians who were on a live fire night exercise in Afghanistan killing several. It was an accident. In war it happens. . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I answered your first question in 167 as best I can at this time. I’m still doing research. I don’t know their motive for blowing up ambulances, hospitals, aid centers, power plants, water supply plants, schools, civilian homes, or for attacking caravans of fleeing civilians either, but I do know their bombs and missiles usually hit their target. I understand about fog of war accidents. I also know for a fact, from reading IDF records and transcripts, that the ship the Israelis strafed and torpedoed had been identified hours before the attack by their own air force as being an American ship. They checked their copy of Janes' and identified it as the USS Liberty. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. I'm sure the U.S. had spies in the sky, (and not U2s that can be shot down). They don't need a ship. Any crucial information is not passed in the clear in peace time much less during a war. The idea that the ship might discover something it had to be killed for doesn't work. Besides why didn't they finish the job? There are far more reasons to believe it a mistake. “The rate of friendly fire deaths for all U.S. troops in World War II was 12-14 percent; Vietnam, 10-14 percent; Grenada, 13 percent; and Panama, 6 percent.” http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/11/national/main1391626.shtml "The day before the Liberty incident, Israeli aircraft bombed a friendly armored column in the Sinai after it was mistaken for an enemy column." "An Israeli tank fired on a building occupied by Israeli troops after mistaking them for enemy fighters. Three soldiers were killed and another twenty wounded" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire#Gaza_War . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
“There are far more reasons to believe it a mistake.” What exactly are those reasons? They identified the ship as being American before the attack, the attacking planes and torpedo boats could clearly see the hull numbers, the American flag, knew exactly what frequencies to jam, etc. - sounds pretty deliberate rather than a “mistake” to me. For an hour and fifteen minutes the Israelis did their best to sink the ship, murder the entire crew, our troops. The reason they stopped the attack as I understand it is that the Liberty finally got out signal. Our first response was a bomber headed for Egypt. Now who would benefit if our response had been to attack Egypt? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
“ The incident took place during the Six Day War when Israel was engaged in battles with two Arab countries and preparing to attack a third, creating an environment where mistakes and confusion were prevalent. For example, at 11:45, a few hours before the attack, there was a large explosion on the shores of El-Arish followed by black smoke, probably caused by the destruction of an ammunition dump by retreating Egyptian forces. The Israeli army thought the area was being bombarded, and that an unidentified ship offshore was responsible. (According to U.S. sources, Liberty was 14 nmi (16 mi; 26 km) from those shores at the time of the explosion.) As the torpedo boats rapidly approached, Liberty opened fire on them. This was after the aerial attacks. At the inquiry, Commander McGonagle expressed that he felt sure the torpedo boat captains believed they were under fire from the Liberty. Admiral Shlomo Erell, former head of the Israeli Navy in 1967, notes that no successful argument of benefit has been presented for Israel purposely attacking an American warship, especially considering the high cost of predictable complications that would follow after attacking a powerful ally, and the fact that Israel notified the American embassy immediately after the attack.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Someone’s not paying attention. According to the IDF’s own documents, the Israelis knew the ship was the Liberty before the attack. The Liberty was approx 14nmi from shore, armed only with four .50 cal. machine guns which have a range of around 2000/2500meters, not 14nmi. “Torpedo boats soon arrived and continued the attack, firing five torpedoes, with one hitting and killing 25 men. They then leisurely circled the defenseless ship for 40 minutes, pumping hundreds of 40mm, 20mm, and 50cal. rounds at wounded men on deck, stretcher bearers and fire fighters. Thinking the ship was about to sink, the crew threw life rafts over the side; the attackers machine-gunned those too. With increased radio activity from the U.S. Sixth Fleet indicating an impending U.S. response (many of the Fleet's messages bore "Flash" precedence), the Israelis suddenly contacted the U.S. embassy and informed it of this "accident." It was probably the longest "accidental" attack in the history of naval warfare an hour and 15 minutes.“ “What was Israel's motive for this act? The scheduling of the Israeli assault on the Golan Heights for 8 June was a move to defeat an intense effort in the United Nations to halt the war, a ceasefire having been scheduled for 9 June. Such pressure was also being applied by the U.S. Government. The IDF leaders were under pressure to acquire the Golan before the ceasefire was imposed, preferably without being labeled the aggressor (as in 1956 when Israel had colluded with Britain and France to attack Egypt). But with all the pressure to attack Syria, and after all the hurried preparations to do so, the Golan attack was suddenly called off within hours of its scheduled commencement. Why? Obviously, someone in the IDF leadership feared the Liberty might intercept some of the many signals then filling the air that would expose Israel's preparations for invasion. They might then be forced into a ceasefire before they conquered the coveted territory.” http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_order/zionism/israeli_false_flag_attack_%20on_USS_Liberty.htm |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
I beg your pardon, but it is not my position or that of anybody else to supply a motivation for the Israeli attack, is it? Israel acknowledged it. In truth, the Friendly Fire explanation is the most palatable explanation the Israelis might offer. It's nice of them to offer it, but understandable; since they are heavily in our debt, and an offer of any other explanation would be a diplomatic insult of the highest order. Having killed American sailors alone is all the permission one requires to speculate as to why the Israelis might have done such a thing. Their willingness to respond with a high degree of aggression to the perception of threat from others is reason enough to believe that even a momentary suspicion that Americans might get in the way of Israeli plans might provoke a preemptive strike. A preemptive strike is as good or better explanation for the attack as the Friendly Fire explanation, since it presumes that they had knowledge of the ship and its position. Perhaps John believes that the U.S. would keep the position of the ship secret from the Israelis, and thus increase the likelihood of a Friendly Fire incident. I would tend to believe differently, having an understanding that the Israelis are quite aggressive, and having the understanding that the area at that time was under considerable stress geopolitically. Perhaps John would like to assert that Israeli military doctrine is to be a bit less aggressive than I understand it to be. That would be an interesting position to take. Given that Israeli response doctrine — at least on land — is to destroy the houses from which rockets are launched, it would be reasonable to believe that if the Israelis actually believed that the American ship were a real aggressor, and engaged in aggressive activities, they would have sunk her with overwhelming force. The actual action reports, as quoted in the discussion earlier, suggest that what was attempted was a disabling attack, careless of individual casualties, but not fatal for the ship itself. Loss of the ship would have been possible, but not the looked for result, designed to interrupt possible flow of intelligence by forcing personnel to work of preserving the integrity of the ship and to care for casualties. But then, I've never been a soldier, and I'd have to say that I'm not expert. It's not as though Israel and the U.S. haven't had other confrontations, however, including espionage confrontations which have endangered U.S. security, and those are less conveniently written off, aren't they? Israel is another sovereign power, and will have real disagreements with the United States from time to time. It does nobody any good to pretend otherwise. It doesn't make Israel worse than it is, it simply is reality asserting it's place in our observations. Ignoring reality isn't useful to anybody. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Loss of Liberty - Israels Deliberate Attack on an American Ship Israel’s Deadly Attack on U.S.S. Liberty Emerges From the Past http://buchanan.org/blog/tag/uss-liberty |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. So despite all evidence all testimony and conclusions of investigations by both the U.S. and Israel, it is yet easier to believe that Israel consciously and deliberately attacked a ship it knew belonged to the navy of its most critical ally. And for what? Because it was afraid the United States might find out Israeli, (who had pushed the Egyptian army across the entire Sinai Peninsula), intentions with a ship, (not its satellites), in the Golan Heights. Or better yet: “ Our first response was a bomber headed for Egypt. Now who would benefit if our response had been to attack Egypt?” Which is not far from the mindset that never the less believes that Israel, (with the help of Bush of course), perpetrated 911. . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
“Which is not far from the mindset that never the less believes that Israel, (with the help of Bush of course), perpetrated 911.” If you’d bother to watch the Loss of Liberty video instead of hurling insults like the above, you would have heard that certain testimony from the survivors was not allowed into the record. The investigations were a sham. And for the fourth time, IDF records state the Israelis knew the ship was the Liberty before the attack. There are also recorded transmissions of attacking pilots reporting seeing the hull numbers and the American flag. They were told to continue the attack. Why was the Liberty there, what was its mission? What was it doing that so threatened the Israelis they were willing to murder their “allies” and risk creating an international incident? They knew it was an American ship before and during the attack yet they were willing to and did commit war crimes in an attempt to sink it. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “Meanwhile, at the United Nations, and in response to Arab complaints that the U.S. and British were supporting Israel in the conflict, United States Ambassador Goldberg announced that the U.S. forces were hundreds of miles from the conflict.[12] At the time the statement was made, this was the case, since the Liberty was just entering the Mediterranean Sea[17] but would ultimately steam to within a few miles of the Sinai Peninsula. On the night of June 7 Washington time, early morning on June 8, 01:10Z or 3:10 AM local time, the Pentagon issued an order to 6th Fleet headquarters to tell the Liberty to come no closer than 100 nmi (120 mi; 190 km) to Israel, Syria, or the Sinai coast (Oren, p. 263). [2](pages 5 and Exhibit N, page 58). According to the Naval Court of Inquiry[18] (p. 23 ff, p. 111 ff) and National Security Agency official history,[19] the order to withdraw was not broadcast on the frequencies that the Liberty crew was monitoring for orders until 15:25 Zulu, hours after the attack, due to a long series of administrative and communications problems. The Navy said a large volume of unrelated high-precedence traffic, including intelligence intercepts related to the conflict, was being handled at the time and it also faulted a shortage of qualified radio men as a contributing factor to the failure to send the withdrawal message to Liberty in time.[18](p. 111 ff) During the morning of the attack, early June 8, the ship was overflown by Israeli Air Force (IAF) aircraft including a Nord Noratlas "flying boxcar" and Mirage III jet fighters eight times.[20][21] At least some of those flybys were from a close range.[22]. At about 5:45 a.m. Sinai time (GMT +2), reports were first received at Israeli Central Coastal Command (CCC) about the Liberty, identified by pilots as a destroyer and the vessel was placed on the plot board using a red marker, indicating an unknown vessel. At 6:03 a.m. that morning, the Nord identified the ship as a U.S. supply ship, though the marker was only changed from the red 'unknown ship' to a green 'neutral ship' at 9 a.m., when CCC was ordered to do so after naval command inquired as to the marker's status. Also around 9 a.m. an Israeli jet reported that a ship north of Arish had opened fire on him after he tried to identify the vessel, resulting in naval command dispatching two destroyers to investigate. These destroyers returned to previous positions at 9:40 a.m. after doubts emerged during debriefing over the pilot's claim of receiving fire. When the Nord landed and its naval observer was debriefed, the ship was further identified as the USS Liberty based on its "GTR-5" markings.[23] Many Liberty crewmen gave testimony that one of the aircraft flew so close to Liberty that its propellers rattled the deck plating of the ship, and the pilots waved to the crew of Liberty, and the crewmen waved back.[24] The ship was removed from CCC's plot board at 11 am, due to its positional information being stale.[25] At 11:24 a.m., the Central Coastal Command received the first of several reports that Arish on the Sinai coast was being shelled from the sea, and half an hour later sent three torpedo boats to investigate. This was near the Liberty's position. At 1:41 p.m., the torpedo boats detected a target "20 miles northwest of El Arish and 14 miles off the coast of Bardawil" [1] on their radar.[26] The Combat Information Center officer on the torpedo boat Division flagship, "Ensign Yifrach Aharon, reported that the target had been detected at a range of 22 miles, that her speed had been tracked for a few minutes, after which he had determined that the target was moving westward at a speed of 30 knots. These data were forwarded to the Fleet Operations Control Center."[26] The speed of the target was significant because it indicated that the target was a combat vessel.[26] "The Chief of Naval Operations asked the [torpedo boat] Division to double-check their calculations."[26] "A few minutes later, the Division Commander reported that the target, now 17 miles from him, was moving at a speed of 28 knots" on a different heading.[27] "Since the Division was cruising at the same speed as the target, and therefore could not intercept it the Division commander requested that IAF planes be dispatched."[26] At 1:48 p.m., the Chief of Naval Operations requested dispatch of IAF fighter aircraft to the ship's location.[28] Two Mirage III type aircraft arrived at the ship at about 2:00 p.m.[26] The formation leader, Captain Spector, reported the vessel appeared like some type of non-Israeli warship.[26] Authorization to attack was issued by the chief air controller, Lieutenant Colonel Shmuel Kislev, immediately after a recorded exchange between a command headquarters weapons systems officer, one of the air controllers, and the chief air controller questioning a possible American presence.[29] [edit] The air and sea attacks Beginning about 2 p.m., the Liberty was attacked by several IAF aircraft, initially by two Mirage IIIs, employing cannon, rockets and bombs,[30] followed by two Dassault Mysteres carrying napalm. One napalm bomb hit the ship.[31] The leader of the Mirage formation identified the ship as a destroyer, mistaking the off-center fed parabolic antenna on its forecastle for a gun. The fact that the ship had Western markings led IDF Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin to fear that the ship was Soviet; he ordered the planes and a three torpedo boat squadron that had been ordered into the area to withhold fire pending positive identification of the ship, and sent in two helicopters to search for survivors. These radio communications were recorded by Israel. The order also was recorded in the ship's log, although the commander of the torpedo boat squadron stated that he had not received it.[32] When the commander of torpedo boats could see the Liberty, he immediately realized the ship was not a destroyer or any type of warship capable of 30 knots (56 km/h) speed. He immediately ordered the attack stopped pending better identification "although this was difficult due to the billowing clouds of smoke that enveloped the vessel; only her bow, part of her bridge and the tip of her mast could be discerned." The commander attempted to signal the ship but got a reply asking him to identify himself. He also observed gun fire from the ship. He consulted an Israeli identification guide to Arab fleets and concluded the ship was the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir. Another of his boat captains reached the same conclusion.[33] Based on that identification, the gun fire and what he considered an evasive response to his signal, the commander ordered the attack to proceed.(ibid. p. 17) . . .” NSA tapes and recent developments Within an hour of learning that the Liberty had been torpedoed the director of NSA, LTG Marshall S. Carter, sent a message to all intercept sites requesting a special search of all communications that might reflect the attack or reaction. No communications were available. However, one of the airborne platforms, a U.S. Navy EC-121 aircraft that flew near the attacks from 2:30 p.m. to 3:27 p.m., Sinai time (1230 to 1327 Z), had collected voice conversations between two Israeli helicopter pilots and the control tower at Hazor Airfield following the attack on the Liberty.[8] On July 2, 2003, the National Security Agency released copies of the recordings made by the EC-121 and the resultant translations and summaries.[9] These revelations were elicited as part of a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit by Florida bankruptcy judge and retired naval aviator Jay Cristol. Two linguists who were aboard the EC-121 when the recordings were made, however, have claimed separately that at least two additional tapes were made that have been excluded from the NSA releases up to and including a June 8, 2007, release.[6] English transcripts of the released tapes indicate that Israel still believed it had hit an Egyptian supply ship even after the attack had stopped. [10] [11] After the attack, the rescue helicopters are heard relaying several urgent requests that the rescuers ask the first survivor pulled out of the water what his nationality is, and discussing whether the survivors from the attacked ship will speak Arabic. [12] A summary report of the NSA-translated tapes [13] indicates that at 1234Z Hatzor air control began directing two Israeli Air Force helicopters to an Egyptian warship, to rescue its crew: "This ship has now been identified as Egyptian." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident#NSA_tapes_and_recent_developments The site is a pretty credible source of information. But it really doesn’t matter. I’m not contending with reason but with a religion one of whose central articles of faith is the wrong if not evil of Israel. . PS “The theory that the attack on the Liberty was motivated by a desire to conceal the impending Israeli attack on the Golan Heights is not, then, confined to the extremist fringe, but has made headway in important political and academic circles. In the past, refuting it was dependent largely on appeals to common sense, such as that made by Ernest Castle, the former U.S. naval attaché, in an interview with British television: Let us presume the Israeli high command was... fearful that the United States would learn of what was an evident Israeli plan to take the Golan, or any other plan on the part of the Israelis. Would they say, "my golly, that will irritate the United States, our great friend. We'd better not... let that happen - so let's sink their ship instead"? Common sense would also dictate that the Israelis, in the process of handily defeating three Arab armies, could have easily sunk a single, lightly armed ship if they had wanted to. In such a case, they would not have attacked the Liberty in broad daylight with clearly marked boats and planes - submarines could have done the job - nor would they have ultimately halted their fire and offered the ship assistance. But it is no longer necessary to decide the argument on the basis of common sense alone. Like the other claims for Israel's alleged motive in attacking the Liberty, the one linking the assault to the Golan Heights campaign cannot withstand the scrutiny of the newly declassified documents. These confirm that Israel made no attempt to hide its preparations for an offensive against Syria, and that the United States government, relying on regular diplomatic channels, remained fully apprised of them” http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty1.html . [This message has been edited by Huan Yi (06-23-2010 02:55 PM).] |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I think a far more credible source might be those who lived through the attack, our own troops - our troops who were threatened with court martial, imprisonment and “worse” if they talked about what happened. I’m amazed any American would so blatantly discredit/disregard the testimonies of American servicemen. Doing so is calling American servicemen, servicemen awarded the Silver Star, the Medal of Honor, liars. All known survivors of the Liberty massacre agree, it was a deliberate attack, not a mistake. What would they possibly have to gain by lying? They’ve already been declared heroes. Hurling insults and personal attacks in an attempt to make your argument may impress the bullies on the playground, but it certainly won't impress any thinking person. Again, the link to the testimonies from some of the survivors. Watch it and see if you think these men credible or not: Loss of Liberty - Israels Deliberate Attack on an American Ship http://buchanan.org/blog/tag/uss-liberty |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “I’m amazed any American would so blatantly discredit/disregard the testimonies of American servicemen. Doing so is calling American servicemen, servicemen awarded the Silver Star, the Medal of Honor, liars” "McGonagle "told a man from the bridge ... to proceed to [machine gun] mount 51 and take the boats under fire." He then testified: "When the boats reached an approximate range of 2,000 yards, the center boat of the formation was signaling to us. Also, at this range, it appeared that they were flying an Israeli flag." It was not possible to "read the signals from the center torpedo boat because of the intermittent blocking of view by smoke and flames." McGonagle "realized that there was a possibility of the aircraft having been Israeli and the attack had been conducted in error." So, he "yelled to [the man in] machine gun [mount] 51 to tell him to hold fire." But the man "fired a short burst at the boats before he was able to understand" McGonagle's order. At this same time, McGonagle realized that "machine gun 53 began firing at the center boat," and he observed that its fire was "extremely effective and blanketed the area and the center torpedo boat. . . . As the torpedo boats rapidly approached, Liberty opened fire on them. This was after the aerial attacks. At the inquiry, Commander McGonagle expressed that he felt sure the torpedo boat captains believed they were under fire from the Liberty.’ “McGonagle received the Medal of Honor” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident#NSA_tapes_and_recent_developments Is there another Medal of Honor winner you are referring to? . |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Using that logic common sense would also dictate that they could stop an unarmed aid ship without boarding it and executing 9 civilians – unless of course they wanted to. The argument that the Israelis didn’t want to sink the Liberty is, quite frankly, laughable. Torpedoes are designed to sink ships Huan, 5 were fired at the Liberty, 2 missed and 1 impacted leaving a hole in her starboard side that you could drive an RV through. It wasn’t through lack of trying that the Liberty didn't sink. . |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. As to the Liberty, as the article asked why not with a sub at night? It was a mistake for which in all wars there are ample statistics some already noted. "unless of course they wanted to." You are leaving out quite a lot about the situation aren't you? . |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Perhaps they were in a rush to sink the Liberty and they understood that Tanin and Rahav weren’t designed as pursuit vessels and the Liberty would be miles away before they reached the scene. quote: No, I think I pretty much covered it. The Israelis could have stopped the ship without boarding it, they decided not to. They could have used non-lethal force if they really wanted to (they’re supposed to be professional – right?) but instead they decided to execute civilians by shooting them multiple times in the head. . |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. What happened on the other ships they boarded before? Why paint guns? . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Were the planes unmarked? Is shooting the life rafts of a ship in distress a war crime? How about shooting the wounded, is that a war crime? Let’s see the Israeli AF made several passes during daylight the purpose of which were to identify the ship. Hull numbers were noted, Israelis checked their Janes’ and identified the ship as being the Liberty. Israeli pilots contacted the war room twice during the time of the attack stating the ship was flying an American flag and were told both times to attack anyway . The El Quseir was approximately half the size of the Liberty and configured entirely differently. Looked as much like the Liberty as a kayak looks like a fifty foot yacht. “Other than a brief public statement after the incident, McGonagle refused to discuss the matter. He was, in the words of one of his crew members, "a good Navy captain." But in 1997, on the 30th anniversary of the attack, McGonagle spoke up. In a speech at a reunion of Liberty crew members and their families at Arlington National Cemetery, he called for a full accounting from Israel and the United States. "I think it's about time that the state of Israel and the United States government provide the crew members of the Liberty and the rest of the American people the facts of what happened, and why . . . the Liberty was attacked," McGonagle said, his voice cracking with emotion. "For many years I have wanted to believe that the attack on the Liberty was pure error," the captain said. But, he said, "it appears to me that it . . . was not a pure case of mistaken identity. It was, on the other hand, gross incompetence and aggravated dereliction of duty on the part of many officers and men of the state of Israel." |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Question for Grinch - Have you seen Iara Lee’s hour long video of the Mavi Marmara attack? There is a clip that shows a booklet dropped by one of the IDF showing pictures of certain passengers on Challenger 1 and 2. Do you know anything about what that was, was it a hit list, a do not hit list or something? I haven’t been able to find out anything about it. Here’s the link, starts at about 44:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwsMJmvS0AY |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: It’s what security forces call a “Bingo list” Jen, it’s a list of people that are of interest to intelligence officers – used after an assault to identify specific targets of interest to be detained and segregated before being handed over for questioning. They can also be used to identify legitimate targets, in siege situations for instance, where the standard practice of the hostage takers is to pretend to be a hostage to avoid capture or the other way around, to identify known non-combatants. In this situation, judging by a couple of the names on the list - Bulent Yildirim, for instance, one of the main organisers, it’s likely they were on a bingo list for detention and questioning, . They were worth more alive as an intelligence asset than they were dead. Another reason to believe that is that there were 16 names on the list but only 9 dead, if it was a hit list you can bet your last dollar there’d be 16 dead. Also Israeli intelligence was allegedly really upset that certain passengers were released along with the others, which suggests that they had a list of people they’d like to get their grubby little jump leads on. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
John, What evidence have you that any of the people here who disagree with you believe anything like the assertion that the Israelis have anything to do with 9/11? To believe that you disagree with me on one important position does not mean I have justification to believe that you have signed on to everything that I disagree with. I believe Israel is behaving badly now and has behaved badly in the last sixty years. Not at all time, but frequently enough to make the Palestinians feel justified in thgeir anger and for that anger to have a realistic basis. The opposite is also true. How does this suggest that I believe that the Israelis have had anything to do with 9/11? How does believing that Israel is in the wrong about this particular series of issues — the ones in this thread — suggest that any of us that disagree with you hold that opinion? Al Qaeda took responsibility for that and even bragged about it. Israel has not. I would appreciate an explanation for this accusation. Suggesting even that I or any of us have even come close to saying such stuff really is somewhat beyond impolite. I'd like to know, on the basis of some thinking, how you came up with such an accusation and whether you stick by it. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Thanks Grinch! Been working on something else so I've missed a few beats, quite a few I'm afraid. Anyway, about the missing six. You have any theories/info on that? Have read they might have been Israeli infiltrators or simply a miscount on the passenger list. Haven't seen a recent follow-up. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Nobody is missing Jen, if anyone were their relatives and countries of origin would be screaming blue murder. If nobody is missing they either didn’t exist in the first place, which means that the passenger list was incorrect, or that they existed but were Israeli plants as you suggested, in which case they’re safely back in Israel with their families. Looking at Israel’s previous operating procedure, and the reactions from both sides, my money would be on the latter. . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Yes, didn’t make much sense that no one had spoken up about a missing relative or friend. Plus seems they would have done a pretty careful check-in for security reasons. Yep, that’s what I was thinking, Israeli infiltrators. But after I saw the Bingo List, was questioning if maybe the supposedly missing six were still being held or dead. Also, can’t help but wonder, if there were infiltrators, whether they might have helped fuel the violence, not that much help was needed. But it sort of fits a typical Israeli MO - push a few buttons, and then when people react, use excessive force, go into overkill . Maybe it’s SOP, but having commandos abseil one at a time into the middle of a gang waiting to beat them with iron pipes seemed a little strange. You’re pretty vulnerable swinging on a rope your attacker is holding. Not quite a suicide mission maybe, but seemed unnecessarily risky, perhaps a diversion, something for the camera to focus on while something else was going on, like shooting civilians in the head. Oh well, just my tinfoil hat musings. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "Maybe it’s SOP, but having commandos abseil one at a time into the middle of a gang waiting to beat them with iron pipes seemed a little strange. You’re pretty vulnerable swinging on a rope your attacker is holding. Not quite a suicide mission maybe, but seemed unnecessarily risky, perhaps a diversion, something for the camera to focus on while something else was going on, like shooting civilians in the head. Oh well, just my tinfoil hat musings." Agree . . . . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I thought maybe you’d lost interest in this discussion. But since you’ve popped it up again, a few more facts for you: “CLAIM #1: The violence onboard the Mavi Marmara resulted from the surprising resistance the Israeli commandos encountered when they boarded the ship. According to an Israeli military spokesman, "We had in mind a sit-down, a linking of arms." IN FACT: Testimony from passengers confirms that Israeli commandoes began firing before boarding the ship. According to Al-Jazeera correspondent and Mavi Marmara passenger Jamal El Shayyal, "Commandos on board the choppers joined the firing, using live ammunition, before any of the soldiers had descended onto the ship. Two unarmed civilians were killed just meters away from me. Dozens of unarmed civilians were injured right before my eyes" http://imeu.net/news/article0019260.shtml "I think it's about time that the state of Israel and the United States government provide the crew members of the Liberty and the rest of the American people the facts of what happened, and why . . . the Liberty was attacked," - Captain William McGonagle |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
perhaps a diversion, something for the camera to focus on while something else was going on, like shooting civilians in the head. Now, how could anyone lose interest in a discussion that offers such intelligent comments? Stone. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
But it was just a "warning shot". Certainly not the Israelis fault that an unarmed civilian shot in the head died from it. "As a result of the IDF's violence, which began prior to boarding the ship, nine passengers on the Mavi Marmara were killed, having been shot a total of 30 times. Five of the nine were shot in the head, some at close range, some from the back, and one, a 19 year old American citizen named Furkan Dogan, was shot in what can only be seen as execution-style: once in the chest and four times in the head from a range of less than 45 centimeters." (45cm is approx 17.7 inches, about half the length of a man's arm) . . . . "I think it's about time that the state of Israel and the United States government provide the crew members of the Liberty and the rest of the American people the facts of what happened, and why . . . the Liberty was attacked," - Captain William McGonagle [This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (06-25-2010 09:25 AM).] |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
quote: I'm unclear here, Mike. Are you denying that the commandoes descended from the Helicopters, firing weapons into the crowd below, and with supporting fire coming from their colleagues above? Or are you saying you don't know about the actual facts of the situation? Or is it something else? The comments either were true or they weren't true. The comment about the intelligence of the commentary was therefore not an evaluation of how true the comments were, but was an attack on the speaker. People on the boat were injured by gunshot wounds and perhaps killed. One commando required treatment for a stomach wound, not, apparently inflicted with firearm, or at least that what the references quoted in this thread have said. This seems to support Jennifer's account of the incident. If you have evidence otherwise, I'm interested in hearing it, but the personal abuse is, I'm told, against the rules. And what does the word "Stone" mean in this context? I haven't been able to figure that out. For what it's worth, even superb troops can be poorly commanded or get lunatic orders. Think The Light Brigade, to offer a distant and hopefully neutral example. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I think 'Stone' is a reference to what Jennifer called me in a comment to Grinch to the effect of not bothering to waste time talking (typing) to me when my 'hearltess and callous' comments (laying the ultimate blame for the deaths of the inhabitants of Gaza on Hamas) gave her a serious case of the vapors, whereby she needed a cold cloth and a lie down, despite how unflappable she normally is. Maybe you need to scold Jennifer, Bob. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
People are too fond of their beliefs to follow the facts. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Please check those comments again, Denise, I didn’t call YOU anything. “Stone” was a reference to post #48, paragraph 2. I did think your comment was callous and heartless, but I certainly didn’t call YOU callous and heartless. Nor did I call you a $5 hooker. Anyway, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2FX9rviEhw |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Yes, “Stone” was a reference to post #48, paragraph 2, but your inference, immediatley following my comments that you disagreed with, was clearly that it was applicable to me, as per Carse's article, Jennifer, where he referred to people turning to stone. For the record, I've never called YOU anything, not even a $5 hooker. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
‘$5 hooker’– did I miss something? Colour me confused. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
If I may tell you in a word This hoker isn't worth a turd. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Rather than jumping to conclusions, Denise, you could have asked. I thought the point was obvious, but would have been glad to explain. The point was the back and forth banter was pointless, no one was going to change their point of view. It wasn’t you who called me a $5 hooker? If it wasn’t you then who was it? Grinch wants to know, don't you Grinch? And Bob's till waiting for an answer from Balladeer, aren't you Bob? Anyway, away for a three day weekend. Feel free to talk about me while I’m gone. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsTB2nzoGiw . . . “At approximately 1050 hours, the naval observer from the early morning reconnaissance flight arrived at Israeli air force HQ and sat down with the air-naval liaison officer there. The two officers consulted Janes’ Fighting Ships and learned that the ship reported earlier in the day was USS Liberty, a United States Navy technical research ship. “- IDF Report |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: If someone actually called you a $5 hooker Jen then, absolutely, I’d like to know - curious is my middle name. (It's actually ugly but we won't go into that.) |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "If someone actually called you a $5 hooker Jen then, absolutely, I’d like to know" So would I. . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I never called you any such thing Jennifer, and if you are accusing me of such a thing, then bring forward the post where, you are claiming, that I did. In fact I've never called you or anyone else any names whatsover here on these boards. You are way off base now with your slanderous accusations twisting in the wind while you pop off for the weekend. Inexcusable, to say the least. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
" I'm unclear here, Mike. Are you denying that the commandoes descended from the Helicopters, firing weapons into the crowd below, and with supporting fire coming from their colleagues above? Or are you saying you don't know about the actual facts of the situation? Or is it something else? " What I'm saying, Bob, is that I don't think Israelis were going around creating diversions for the cameras so they could go around shooting people in the head without the cameras seeing. Can I prove it? No, no more than Jennifer can claim they did. The remark was devoid of intelligence and filled with personal bias and disdain in it's presentation. Nice to see you still ride to her defense, though, even though you didn't question the word stone when she used it....but I have gotten used to that double standard concerning her actions compared to others. It's not the first time. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Mike, I looked up the use of the word "stone" in posting # 48, paragraph 2, as per Denise's suggestion. In that context it made sense. In the context in which you used it, it did not, at least for me. It is another case where the use of quotation marks would have been appropriate and would have made a difference. Don't get cranky with me because you didn't use them and expected people to read your mind. You know better. In Jennifer's case, it was part of a quote, the context was clear, as was the attribution. My squishy memory dredges up a partial and slant reference — "Too long a {something or other. perhaps having to do with absense] can make a stone of the heart[,]" from somewhere in Yeats — that comes from seeing the useage in posting 48. Whether it was intended by the author, I don't know. Jennifer posted news accounts from the physician who treated the Israeli casualties on that ship, with accounts of the wounds of those Israeli casualties and some accounts of the wounds of the passengers on that ship. She insisted that there were casualties. She also insisted that the account of abseiling one at a time into a crowd seemed "a little bit strange, almost suicidal" and offered the suggestion that they were covering for people being shot in the head to explain such odd behavior. She was reaching for an explanation for odd behavior Mike. Both of you agree the behavior was odd. She doesn't know how to explain it any more than you do; she was offering an unlikely construct. That doesn't mean that there weren't passengers killed by Israeli fire on the ship, though, because we have the evidence from the doctor who treated them and from witnesses on the ship, and I haven't seen you dispute these, nor suggest that there is credible evidence available to dispute these accounts. quote: You will note that the last sentence has shown her own doubts about the previous clause, calling it "tinfoil hat musings"? If I were to focus on material that you had disavowed as being "tin-hat" material as work that you claimed to be an example of you best thinking, I would be unsurprised if you might be upset. Why you believe you can do it with others is somewhat beyond me. The reason I defend Jennifer is that you attack Jennifer. I tend to dislike that sort of thing. I also praise you when I think you've said something telling or insightful, because I think that's worthy of comment as well, and especially so if the thought is new to me. I also say when I think I'm wrong or might be wrong, or at least I try to, and I work on all these things to improve on how well I'm doing them because I don't do any of them well enough. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You're looking under the wrong stone, Bob. Try post #143 and the previous 2 comments leading up to it. I'm sure you didn't understand that "stone", either....and yet you didn't question it or ask for an explanation. I don't really find that surprising. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
It looks like something made Jen feel she was called "hooker" in this thread:: /pip/Forum6/HTML/001959-11.html (first comment) |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
I thought that use of the word was fairly clear, Mike; it was, I thought, a reference to Denise's comments a few postings before in which she suggested that Hamas had killed some Palestinians so they might blame it on the Israelis. "Stone" in that case I read as a suggestion that Denise had made a fairly cold comment without offering much by way of proof, as in "Stone Cold" or "Stone Hearted," the sort of thing somebody does to dehumanize an enemy. I didn't find it ambiguous at all. I'm surprised you did; it was fairly clear. On the other hand, for you to expect to use it with similar effect after somebody had just used irony to undercut themselves and suggested that their own suspiciousness might have merited use of a tinfoil hat doesn't yield the same effect. You were taking yourself seriously; she was not. I've seen you use your ability to undercut your own pretentions well in your verse, and I've admired it. It takes a confident hand. It's not a skill I've seen you show similar mastery of in your political discourse. Nor, I hasten to say, should you have to; but you should be able to recognize when somebody else is doing so and, if only on stylistic grounds, and you should be able to allow yourself to take some pleasure in seeing it done. I can't shoot, but I recognize when somebody else is a good shot, and I enjoy when somebody's a good basketball player, even though I never was one. Somebody with good qi is extraordinary to watch, even when they simply walk or breathe; even though my skill is tiny, I can still appreciate those who can show more. So is a good ironist is a delight to watch. I think it's better that I let the swipe an me pass by. I suspect that you mean it, of course, but I think it is momentary rage which heaven knows I certainly earn frequently enough. This might be a good place to let it rest, though. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I saw that reply by Jen at the time it was posted Ess but I didn’t see any comment that prompted it – was it removed perhaps? Does anyone know? . |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Those Israelis are capable of anything . . . . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You see what you want to see, Bob. Dos the phrase "don't bother talking to a stone" do anything for you? Weren't you at least a little curious when it was used? I suppose not, since you didn't question it...then. The "who me?" routine is not new. "Nor, I hasten to say, should you have to; but you should be able to recognize when somebody else is doing so and, if only on stylistic grounds, and you should be able to allow yourself to take some pleasure in seeing it done." Actually, I thought it WAS cleverly done, one word that could easily be defended by "I didn't mean THAT!" should anyone complain. I didn't criticize it - I simply returned it to it's original owner. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I didn't jump to conclusions, Jennifer. Grinch got your point as well: quote: For you to now claim that I misunderstood, that your point was simply that the back and forth banter was pointless doesn't hold water in the context of the posts above, and in the fact that you continued with the so-called 'pointless banter' afterward. You were cleasrly insinuating that I was 'stone', or as Bob says, 'stone cold' or 'stone hearted' (he got your point too). You then make matters worse and insinuate that I had previously, at some point, called you a $5 hooker. It never happened. Back up your allegations or apologize. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Let me get this straight Mike. You thought, rightly or wrongly, that Jen had instigated a cleverly constructed but underhand and disdainful attack on Denise and so you decided to return the favour. Do you think that was wise? quote: That would only work Mike if you actually claim that you didn’t mean it, whereas you seem to be quite proud to insist that you did mean it. At the end of the day, depending on our own subjective view we have the option of giving Jen the benefit of doubt, but in your case there’s no doubt about it – you’re telling us straight that you meant it. I’d be tempted to let this one go if I were you Mike, you can’t win – just my humble opinion of course. Denise, For the record I thought Jen meant that you were impervious to logical argument – that your opinion was fixed and unchangeable and that I was wasting my time trying. To be honest sometimes it does seem that way, that’s not to say that the trait is a bad thing – the positive term for it is resolute – but it can be frustrating during an open discussion. I guess it seems exactly the same from where you’re sitting too on occasion, I know Mike sees me in that light, he claimed recently that I’d never change my opinion. I wouldn’t classify either of us as stone in that context, maybe semi-permeable concrete would be more apt. Now where the heck did the $5 hooker comment come from! Inquisitive minds need to know. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I'd be tempted to let it go if I were you, grinch. You're looking so hard for justifications, you're not reading what's in front of you. Jenn used the word to basically mean.."Don't bother trying to explain to Denise because it's like talking to a stone. I know it, Denise knows it and Jennifer knows it. Was it clever to gt that message across in one cryptic word? Yes. Was it clever in the way that, if someone were to say it was an insult to Denise, Jenn could simply say "You think I meant that???" Yes.That made it clever. I simply returned it to her. Her using it didn't bother Bob at all. Mine did. Musketeers all.... |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Was a comment that made Jen think you called her "hooker" removed Balladeer? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Then you intended to insult Jen with a personal attack Mike? Very classy – why the heck hasn’t it been deleted? Where’s a competent moderator when you need one? . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: Yes, I know the frustration well. Sorry. I guess our inquiring minds will have to await her return to see if she cares to back up her slander. I don't know why she threw that $5 hooker bomb my way any more than you do. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
grinch, if you consider my stone a personal attack, you must do the same for hers. No one deleted hers. Why is it that you are trying so hard to create and extend an argument, to the point of referring to my actions as classless? You are making it appear to be very personal toward me over an incident you have no part in. it makes little sense and doesn't favor you. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I gave Jen the benefit of the doubt Mike, at the time I didn’t see her comment as an attack, but you did, you decided it was an underhand attack and decided to repay the favour, Jen said that a personal attack wasn’t her intent and I believe her. I’d have given you the benefit doubt too Mike but you admitted that it definitely was your intent, I believe you too Mike – I’ve no reason not to. By your own admission Mike you intentionally set out to do exactly what you’re accusing Jen of doing. Like I said – very classy. . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I have no idea why Jennifer brought it up but, since it now seems to be the main concern here, I'll follow up on it. It was in reference to this thread /pip/Forum6/HTML/001944-3.html. I had taken a hiatus from the Alley because it had basically dissolved into little more than insulting other members and, yes, I had been part of it. In that particular thread, I had not taken part, although I followed it. Jennifer decided to try to bring me into it with a personal insult, which she did. When I remarked tht she should keep a personal insult against me out of a thread I was not even a part of, she responded by thanking me for allowing her to win five dollars on a bet to get me to respond. I replied that five dollars was about her right price. The interesting thing was that no one took it as a way of calling her a hooker, which it wasn't. After the comment, Jennifer herself thanked me for joining the thread and never mentioned the comment. Grinch, you who wants to know all about it, you were an active poster in that thread and said nothing about it, either, so it couldn't have made much of an impression on you.. Bob K, also a major part of the thread, also had nothing to say about it. It was a non-event, a small spar between Jennifer and I. Afterwards, a person riding to the aid of Jennifer, issued a complaint, sort of, to the moderator forum and a discussion ensued. Due to site policy, details of mod forum discussions are not made public, suffice to say that Jennifer was a large part of that discussion and the thought of me calling her a "hooker" never came up. The issue was that referred to her as "classless". I acknowledged that and apologized for the comment, offering to delete it, which was rejected. The issue was resolved without consequence. For some reason known only to her, now, 3 months later, she decides to throw it into a thread where it has no meaning or anything to do with anything here. I must assume that, being charged with insulting Denise, she decided to pick up whatever rocks were within reach to throw them back. How she came up with that particular rock is beyond me. Some people just lash out when feeling defensive. I don't pretend to know how Jennifer's mind works. Has it taken her three months to determine that she was called a name? She never was and it seems like nothing more to throw in to the conversation to take the focus off her insulting, which it did. grinch, with your multiple prodding on bringing this incident up, I must assume you are doing it for a reason, such as using it to launch another avenue of attack and personal insulting. It's not going to work. This reply is informational, not conversational. It was an issue that was brought up, discussed and resolved with all parties satisfied with the results, Jennifer included. Her reasoning for referring to it now is known only to her. No, Essorant, there were no deletions and no cover-ups or nefarious dealings of the administration. No conspiracies. It's there as it has been. Why Jennifer attributed it, or at least, mentioned it to Denise is anyone's guess unless even she can't remember it very well. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
And still you continue, grinch....that's fine. These will be the last words we exchange, at any rate. You will have to aim arrows elsewhere, which you should have no problem doing. I'm off to the golf course, where people wear funny pants but are friendly. FORE! |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I’m pretty sure you’ll find that I didn’t bring it up, was I prodding for answers? Sure – along with Huan and Ess, was there a reason? Hell yes – I was curious. So it was you who instigated Jens $5 hooker comment, thanks for letting us know. quote: I definitely would have if I’d seen it Mike and I’d have reported it as inappropriate, unfortunately I didn’t see it, You’ll notice my last post was roughly 3 hours before your post and I didn’t post after it, which is probably why I missed it. I’ve read it now though quote: Very classy. quote: Are you sure? It doesn’t sound like Jen was very satisfied Mike and frankly I don’t blame her. I'm off to watch Football and cheer on the USA. Darn it 1-0 down..  Penalty 1-1.. [This message has been edited by Grinch (06-26-2010 03:47 PM).] |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Your link didn't work, Michael. Here is the full context that led to the initial comment in question: /pip/Forum6/HTML/001944-3.html#50 No, Grinch, Michael did not 'instigate' Jen's $5 'hooker' comment. And note Jennifer's subsequent comment in post #56: quote: She made no comment that she felt that she was insulted at all, nor being called a $5 hooker. Someone else interpreted Michael's comment that way and flagged it to the Mod Forum. That interpretation was not Michael's intent. Nonetheless, Michael apologized, and offered to have it deleted, as he said. The issue was resolved to the satisfaction of everyone involved, including Jennifer. If she wasn't really satisfied and didn't want it marked 'Resolved', she certainly had ample opportunity to object, which she did not, but rather, concurred that the issue was indeed resolved. Only she can tell you why she brought it up again, and in the context that she did. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
So Mike’s remark didn’t instigate this response Denise? quote: That's the $5 hooker comment I was talking about. 2-1 to Ghana btw 2-1 final score Oh well.. USA played well but it wasn't to be. . . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yes, a $5 dollar hooker personal attack that didn't happen and was not questioned by Jennifer until another joined in. Thanks, Denise, but don't bother. We all know what happened and how fairly it was handled with Jenn's participation and acceptance. You're not going to convince those who aren't interested in both sides and, frankly, you are wasting your time. Nor does anyone question why she would mention it in this thread, where it makes no sense at all. Thanks but let it go. Stone. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
It's very easy to present things in a way that presents whatever agenda you have, like the quote grinch posted above. It was in a thread made almost a month after the other one and dealt with my asking BobK if a comment Jen made was correct. SInce he didn't want to acknowledge whether it was or not, it put both he and Jennifer in an uncomfortable situation. That prompted her comment and accusation that I was trying to enlist other membeers against her. He also didn't post my comment which followed... ------------------------------------------- No, I don't have it at all and your accusations are groundless. I have said nothing about judging your character at all, Jennifer. You can say whatever you want to. The entries of yours that I used for examples are entries you posted. You labeled certain comments as hate speech. I asked Bob if he considered them to be that, as well, since the two of you have such similar thoughts and feelings on so many topics. There is nothing out of line there. If you aren't willing to have your comments come under scrutiny, don't post them. She has made the assertion that the comments listed are hate speech. Do you agree? --------------------------------------------- That was it. That was the question that solicited the venom....and my response. Since she pulled out the "hooker" comment then (for actually the very first time), in a situation that put her on the defensive and has also pulled it out here, due to being in a position that put her on the defensive, I would assume that's just something that she does. As I said, I can't read her mind. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Are you saying that you didn’t post this Mike: No problem. Five bucks seems to be about your right price. Buy some class with it. Or are you saying that Jen misunderstood your comment, that you didn’t mean that she was a low class female who could be bought for five bucks? Semi-permeable concrete . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Jen didn't misunderstand it. SHe didn't even question it. I'll repeat - and for the last time... This reply is informational, not conversational. It was an issue that was brought up, discussed and resolved with all parties satisfied with the results, Jennifer included. Her reasoning for referring to it now is known only to her. Don't expect me to respond to you again, grinch. We are finished here. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Got it Mike – she understood that you called her a $5 hooker. I’m glad we cleared that up. Jen, Why did you bring up Mikes comment after the discussion you were involved in at the time and after accepting that the matter was ‘resolved’? Just curious. Adobe |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
The remark was not directed at Denise. Mike tendered an apology. If Jennifer wants to rehash it, I assume she'll say so when she gets back. I would hope she regards it as finished because it was difficult all around, including for her, but for Mike as well. Mike isn't really in a position to defend himself without reopening the whole thing without Jennifer being here, and the whole thing was to have been finished at that time. Mike's use of the word "stone" in his posting was a puzzle to me that I really didn't understand. I find that pretending that I do understand things when I don't understand them is often a mistake, so I asked. It was not my intention to get Mike buried beneath an avalanche here, to whatever extent that I have contributed to it. It did seem to me that Mike was getting a bit personal with Jennifer, and I had hopes of preventing that from happening. I wanted to keep both of them safe from that sort of bruising because, which they are bright and capable adults, we all have our weaknesses. And I for one feel better with both of them involved in the conversation because their opinions are so diverse and each of them feels their position so strongly. That adds a lot for me. I like the way that Jennifer comes in with facts and details and I like the way Mike comes in with feeling and big intuitive leaps, if that isn't too Jungian, and that particular combination will frequently set off sparks. Will almost always set off sparks. If the two of them want to pursue the issue further after Jennifer's return, then they probably could do so, but doing so ought to be their choice and ought not to be forced upon them by the curiosity of others. My opinion, of course. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
That's very decent of you, Bob. Thank you... |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: They can do as they please in private Bob, I was commenting on remarks posted on an open forum that, as far as I can see, is in the public domain and open for discussion. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything – Jen chose to bring the subject up and Mike chose to reply – I simply supplied the curiosity. If they don’t want people to comment then they should take it offline. . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
How can you believe that her comment was not directed at me, Bob, considering the context of her 'stone' comment immediately following her statement to Grinch not to waste his time posting things to me? You yourself said that you thought she meant I was 'stone cold' or 'cold hearted' and Grinch thought she meant that I was 'impervious to logical argument', due to a comment that I had previously made. That sounds personal to me. Is that acceptable to you? I guess so, because you now say it wasn't directed to me at all, and Grinch is giving her the benefit of the doubt, AFTER you both stated what your understanding of her cryptic comment was, which was in line with my understanding of it exactly. How lovely. It's no better than if she had typed Dense or Blockhead, or some other pejorative term, instead of Stone, and you guys are okay with it? And then she throws the '$5 hooker' bomb my way, leaving it twisting in the wind while she goes off for a long weekend, leaving the impression that I was guilty of a slur against her in the past that never even happened, and knowing that most people here wouldn't have a clue as to what she was referring. How nice. Nothing wrong with that either I suppose, is there? If Jennifer wants to rehash it?? It's not up to Jennifer, Bob. She owes me an explanation and an apology. Then she can regard it as finished, if she wishes. And difficult for her? Well, let me tell ya, her slanderous innuendo and dragging me into her little sniping game hasn't exactly been a picnic for me. Is that of any importance to you? |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Yes, Denise, it is. The comment I was speaking of was the monetary one, which I thought had no relationship to you. I didn't want to rehash that particular comment. Your comments about how Hamas had killed Palestinians and used those deaths to blame Israelis were short on support and long on conjecture, to put a good face on them. I am not fond of Hamas, but I would want more solid information than your assertion to base any agreement upon. I notice that when the accusations start being directed in the direction of the Right Wing, you are — and I think correctly — somebody who wants to see solid confirmation of an assertion before you will lend any agreement to it. When you make an assertion like that, you should expect others to have the same reaction you would. The reaction is, after all, human enough. In the absence of such confirmation, assertions like yours do come off badly, as you would assert even against assertions against right wing folks from fairly well established sources by calling them things such as Lamestream media, after the practice of Ms. Palin. And these are media who will name their sources, at least a fair amount of the time, and who attempt to issue confirmable reports. Do I fault you for being upset? No, you have a right to your feelings. I had no impression that she felt you were responsible for the slur against her. I know for certain you were not. Your comments about Hamas and the Palestinians were, I thought, unsupported and they certainly took me aback. Zionist hard liners and Palestinian terrorists have done and said a lot of pretty rough things to each other over the years, so I can't claim it didn't or couldn't happen. But it's reasonably clear that the zionists defended kibbutzim with kids living on them, with schools and infirmaries as well, during the 1948 war, and made it sound heroic, while the defense of schools and hospitals is now made to sound cowardly when it's done by the Palestinians. I think the difference lies in who's writing the news releases, in large part. I'd rather leave children and wounded folks out of wars entirely. Your method of describing the situation sounded very cold to me in that posting. I suspect it didn't sound that way to you, but to me it did. If you'd said the same thing about the Israelis and said it unilaterally, I'd probably have much the same reaction, by the way. Part of the problem with this conflict is that each party sees itself as faultless and demonizes the other, and when we go along with that point of view I believe we help prolong the conflict. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Mr. Grinch, your point about taking the issue off-line is an excellent one, and you are right to make it. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I gave Jen the benefit of doubt after she explained what she meant by the ‘stone’ comment Denise, which was a reply to the suggestion that it was a personal attack. At the time of the original comment I didn’t interpret it as such – I thought Jen was simply voicing the frustration that, as you’ve agreed, we all feel from time to time. I didn’t interpret Mike’s use of it as a personal attack either - until Mike insisted that it was meant as an attack quote: Were you one of the people who had a clue Denise? Were you involved in the original discussion regarding the $5 hooker comment? Your comments regarding the events and what did, and didn’t, happen seem to suggest that you were aware of the comment. If so why did you believe that the remark was aimed at you when you knew it was aimed at Mike? . |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Bob, Sorry I missed your post - I’ll curb my curiosity and make that my last comment until Jen gets back. . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
No matter how outrageous you think my comment was, Bob, it doesn't justify a snarky cryptic comment indicating that I was 'stone-cold' or 'cold-hearted'. I'm sure you wouldn't tolerate it being done to Jennifer and you would immediately come to her defense and call the alleged offender on the carpet. Grinch, so it's fine with you that she used a pejorative term indicating that I was 'impervious to logical arugment' due to her frustration? Even if you buy her explanation that she was only expressing her frustration by the uselessness of the back and forth banter (in which she continued to engage in afterward), she still engaged in name-calling to express her frustration. What I knew or didn't know about the history that led to her hooker comment isn't the point, Grinch. The point is the impression that she created here with her post to me about it, knowing that I couldn't freely discuss it. 99% of the people here wouldn't have a clue as to what she was talking about, that such a slur never actually happened by anybody here in the first place (it was one person's impression of the comment, which was discussed and resolved by those involved at the time), and that I didn't make a slur like that against her. That's the point. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: But according to Jen she didn’t Denise. I was the one who thought she meant that, she said she didn’t , so I gave her the benefit of the doubt. Do I think that it’s ok to say that someone is ‘impervious to logical argument’? Yes. It’s just another way of saying that someone is unlikely to change their opinion despite being presented with reasonable arguments to do so. Saying it is one thing, proving it is another thing entirely. . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: quote: So am I to believe that her original comment was not referring to me, in particular, considering the context, and then her subsequent referencing of post #48, paragraph 2, in her explanation, in which Carse referred to people turning to stone, and that she was simply referring to pointless back and forth banter, in which she continued to engage in, nonetheless, afterward? Sorry Grinch, I'm not buying it. Her attempted 'save' falls short. Her reference to Carse's comment actually proves the original intent of her comment. Anyway, on a lighter note, I was surprised that, who was it from the US team, Donovan, I think (?), who made a comment prior to the game, that the Ghana team would be tough to beat, given that East African's are so athetically endowed. I cringed when I heard it, waiting for an uproarious backlash. One of our sportscasters of long-standing lost his job making such a comment about African Americans a few years back. I was relieved that no one made an issue of it this time. I just feel bad for the sportscaster who lost his career and reputation over a similar comment that was framed as racially derogatory (?) Go figure. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Why take the word "stone" so negatively? A diamond is a stone too. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Believe what you like Denise, I can only tell you what I believed at the time, which is that I didn’t see an issue with the ‘stone’ comment when Jen used it or when Mike used it. The only thing that changed was when Jen said that she didn’t mean it as a personal attack and Mike admitted he did. I’m willing to believe both of them, if you don’t then you need to take it up with them. BTW England lived up to my expectations, a complete and utter defeat at the hands of the Germans. Guess I’ll have to cheer on the Japanese from here on in, though my support seems to be the kiss of death. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Hahahaha...that's too funny Ess! She actually meant that I was a beautifully brilliant, multi-faceted gem, instead of a cold-hearted lump of rock! You are a man of great faith, Grinch! Enjoy your football. I've lost interest now that we are out of the running. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Denise, I am not saying she meant it that way: obviously there was a negative sense intended, but whether she meant it directed at you or your arguments can't be proved. But even if it were directed at you, I don't think it is that harsh or worth taking too sorely. Why do you think the comment wasn't removed? Ron must not think it is that big of a deal either, though it obviously doesn't help anything! I just meant the word itself can be thought of in other ways, therefore you aren't limited to taking it in negative perspective, even if it was meant to be taken that way. "The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer..." |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Yes, Ess, I know what you are saying. Many words have many different meanings. But we can glean their definitive meanings in the context in which they are used. The manner in which Jennifer used 'stone' immediately after telling Grinch not to waste his typing, followed by her 'clarification' referencing comments about people turning to stone, it's quite obvious she was slamming a person, not an argument, and it was intended as an insult, clever though it may have been. Too bad her 'clarification' wasn't as clever. And then she topped it off with throwing the $5 hooker comment into the mix. Do you find anything outrageous about that tactic? Am I also not limited in my perspective regarding a slanderous insinuation such as that, something that she knew I wasn't free to delve into? Can't wait to hear the 'defend Jen' chorus on that ditry, low-down tactic. On that one, since there is no wiggle room to even try to defend it, there will be just silence...stone-cold silence. I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over again. Michael was right. I'm just wasting my time. Jen did it, against me, so it's just fine, or should be overlooked, or explained away. Whatever. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yes, you are wasting your time, Denise, but you defend yourself very well and I admire you tenacity and standing up for yourself. Everything you said was correct. You are a good person and a kind person who does not deserve to be a target of insults by anyone. I will always stand up for you and support you because I have constantly seen your kindness toward others. For those who prefer to defend the insulter, let them. They really don't matter in the long run. Neither do these threads, actually. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I am not trying to explain it away Denise. But I don't want to aggravate it any further by making more words. A mosquito only makes its bite, not the wound that fingers scratching too much may turn it into. Why doesn't Ron step in and help correct us? Is there no moderation in The Alley anymore? [This message has been edited by Essorant (06-27-2010 05:59 PM).] |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Thanks for your kind words, Michael. I appreciate you and your support. It sure is nice to know somebody here understands me. I'm sure Ron thinks we can handle some things on our own, Ess. If he felt the need to step in he would. Things have not gotten out of hand. I'm just taking a stand, finally, and respectfully, against an unwarrented attack of name-calling and a slanderous accusation. I've let pass all her previous 'teabagger' insults, after asking her to stop using that term when referring to the TEA Party Groups because of its perverse and insulting connotation, fostered by MSNBC merely to mock a group of patriot citizns. She stopped for a bit and then started in on it again. She's pushed too far this time. She needs to sincerely apologize for her despicable behavior. That's all. The ball is in her court now. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
"But I don't want to aggravate it any further by making more words." Wise words, Ess, ones that I wish were shared by others. Problem is, some people get pleasure out of the scratching... |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Talking while Jennifer isn't here doesn't help the situation from my point of view. It appears to be conversation behind someone's back, but with the disadvantage of serving only to inspire ill feeling on her return. If you want to speak to Jennifer, I'd suggest you try something on the topic, should you wish to talk about the topic. If you want to talk about something personal, do it someplace else, where the rules don't request some civility. It's not such a big request. I don't need to know how you work out the rules for being civil with each other, do I? I haven't noticed anybody who doesn't slip every now and again and who shouldn't say they're sorry for something or other. If you feel you've managed to get by with a perfect record, then maybe you need to acknowledge perfection is your flaw and go on from there, and let everybody else have a bit of a chuckle. Nobody's perfect. Least of all me. If you've made a serious gaffe, then acknowledge it if you can tolerate it and ammend the mistake as best you can. If you can't, lightening will strike from on Ron, I mean from on high, and it'll have to be worked out differently, but Ron tries to be pretty reasonable if you try to work with him, and he pretty much is. You can't ask more than that. So, if anyone wants to continue this business in public, I'd like to hear what you've done wrong first before arrows get tossed elsewhere, with suggestions on what you need to do to correct your mistakes before you start pointing fingers elsewhere, and with a willingness to listen to feedback from others on those things as well, just so long as those others do the same thing about themselves first. That way maybe we can quit the blame tossing without any responsibility taking. Or we could simply get back to the subject, which to my mind is interesting enough in itself. That's my proposal. If anybody has any others that would seem to control the acrimony, I'd be pleased to hear it or them. Or I'd be just as pleased to drop the whole thing. But I thought I'd at least offer a proposal. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Bob, it appeared the conversation was stopped...until you just revived it. Why not let it go? |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Chicago was hot and steamy, seems it was about the same here. Denise, if you thought any of my comments were intentional personal attacks, then as you know from your years of experience as a moderator, all you needed do was click the inappropriate content button. The mods and admins would then review, discuss and take whatever action they deemed necessary. However, since you didn’t do that or voice any objection to the stone comment at all until after Balladeer posted a personal attack directed at me including the word stone, then perhaps you really didn’t feel insulted or attacked, as he has suggested I wasn’t hurt or insulted by the $5 hooker comment? And again, similar sort of thing happened to Grinch, re Native American land being stolen, ie the “you’ comments. You didn’t seem to take his comment as a personal attack at all, didn’t even mention it until Balladeer characterized it as being a personal attack. Hope that clarifies things a little for you. Feel free to email me if you have any questions now or ever about any of my posts. Thanks for your support Grinch and Bob. . . “At approximately 1050 hours, the naval observer from the early morning reconnaissance flight arrived at Israeli air force HQ and sat down with the air-naval liaison officer there. The two officers consulted Janes’ Fighting Ships and learned that the ship reported earlier in the day was USS Liberty, a United States Navy technical research ship. “- IDF Report |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Anyway, a very informative BBC presentation re the Liberty massacre: Dead In The Water http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3319663041501647311# |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Question for the forum mod or an administrator: I wish to submit an inappropriate comment report re something posted in this thread but can’t since another inappropriate comment report has already been submitted locking out further reports. The comment I would like to report is in #226. Could a mod or an admin advise me how I can file an inappropriate comment ticket on that particular post? Thanks! |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I don't think I've been uncivil, Bob. I guess you think otherwise. I also don't see anything wrong with finishing something in public that was started in public. If it's annoying to anyone, no one is forcing them to read it. And I've never said I was perfect. My biggest flaw around here seems to be that I have a tendency to post things that liberals/progressives don't like. Ah well, I don't see that changing anytime soon. Gee, for a split-second there I thought I was gong to get an apology, Jen. Oh well. Just shows what a naive optimist I can be at times. You're wrong Jen. I did think your were attempting to insult me at the time. But it wasn't anything new coming from you, to me, (teabagger, teabagger, teabagger, ad nauseum) so I was going to let it slide...again. I only brought it up as a clarification for Bob since he asked what Balladeer's reference could possibly be referring to. So I clarified it to him, that's all. Believe me, I wasn't sitting around crying in my beer because of a snarky comment you made to me. I've actually come to expect them. You then, apparently resenting having your insult pointed out, decided to attempt a clarification, which only proved your original comment was intended as an insult, and then compounded it with your $5 hooker slur thrown my way, knowing that I couldn't talk about it in detail, and giving the impression that I had made such a comment to or about you in the past. That's when I got upset. You can check the Mod Forum from here to kingdom come and you'll never find me flagging any comments there as inappropiate. I've never done it at all, let alone flagging someone who has said something against me. It's just not my style. Not that there's anything wrong with it, I just don't. Nor do I see the point of emailing you about something I see as an insult. I'd asked you, nicely, right here on these forums, not to use the teabagger slur. You stopped for a bit, but then started in again worse than ever, knowing how I felt about it. You couldn't even respect me enough to refrain from that. Would an email have gotten better results? I have a better suggestion...think before you type, and then flagging and emailing wouldn't even be necessary. Or we can just agree that I won't post to your comments, and you won't post to mine in the future. And Michael never called you a $5 hooker. You guys hashed that all out, he explained what he did mean by it and apologized for it. You agreed that the issue was resolved. Maybe you need to search your soul to see if you ever actually accepted his apology. It seems that maybe you didn't. It's not healthy to hold on to grudges like that. I don't hold any ill will toward you, Jen. I'm just not putting up with your insults anymore. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Jen I find it disappointing you won't even offer the smallest apology to Denise. It doesn't even matter so much what your motive was: you offended Denise and brought her into something that was between you and Balladeer, not you and her. You don't see any problem at all in that, and in public where everyone else here is exposed to it too? |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Ess, There have been times I've apologised to Denise, but always because I've felt I've done something wrong. I've said I was sorry to almost everybody at one time or another because I've actually felt I've said something that was either wrong or out of line. If you look at the sort of things we tend to say to each other, people say a lot of that sort of stuff — out of line stuff or wrong stuff — to each other from at least somebody's perspective. The thing is that I don't see that Jennifer actually directed that comment toward Denise. I don't know if Denise was in on the discussion of the original complaint. If she was, she knows it was not concerning her. Michael certainly knows it did not concern Denise and that it did concern Jennifer. I had thought the issue resolved. To ask Jennifer to apologise for an insult that was directed at her in the first place, however, is not something I feel she should be asked to do. I do feel that Denise does have a right to request that she not be called "a teabagger" if she finds the term insulting. I've made similar requests about folks using the Democrat as an adjective, as in "The 'Democrat' Party," and found people willing, at least part of the time, to go along. I feel pleased about that, since it lowers the tension for me, particularly, and I would assume that discontinuing the use of "Teabagger" would lessen the tension for Denise. We can disagree without jabbing each other and keep out attention on the issues as much as possible. Alas, Denise has her linguistic weaknesses as well, and may not be aware of the effects of her occasional comments about the Lamestream Media and such. It was once quite possible to offer a crushing comeback to somebody who suggested you were not widely informed, widely traveled or some such thing. Thoreau responded to some such yahoo by saying, "But I am widely traveled ... about Concord," and the country understood the wisdom of what he meant. (Wish I could find a source for that, by the way. I had it in conversation from a writer friend.) I still think my suggestion above was a decent idea. That is, if you're going to take a shot at somebody else, you start things out by saying what you've done wrong first, and take responsibility for it, and ask for feedback. Once you figure out what you need to do to make things better, you might try working on that and then ask somebody else if they mind if you offer a suggestion. Be prepared if they say no. I figure that apologising, for me, is at least a step in making sure that I take some responsibility for what comes out of my mouth. Another step for me is to say when I like something that somebody says, which is often more difficult that a good apology. For myself, my rule is I need to mean it. I really hate that part sometimes. Bob Kaven |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Denise, If I thought Jennifer had tossed the five dollar hooker comment your way, I would have said so. It would have upset me a great deal. I'm very fond of Jennifer, but that would not have stopped me from expressing my unhappiness had I thought your perception to be accurate. It is also a curiously archaic phrase for a young woman to turn to in crafting an insult for an older woman, when you think about it, isn't it? You and I share a generation, and we would be familiar with the insult, but in practical terms it would have predated us, too, wouldn't it? When I was a kid, there was a house of ill repute across the street from my Grandfather's wholesale store, and I remember it well from when I was age five and six. The whole society was much different, and much more stratified. Respectable women wore white gloves when they went downtown. Jennifer wouldn't even know that. And I think you know that Jennifer wouldn't know that, which is part of the history that makes hearing it so vivid for folks of our generation. If I thought it was meant for your ears, I would have said so. I can say that I'm very sorry you were exposed to it at all, though, and I wish you had not been. Bob Kaven |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I’m sorry you’re disappointed, Ess, that I won’t apologize for making a comment that I explained wasn’t meant as a personal attack. And I’m also sorry, and a bit disappointed, that after the many, many, many times I’ve been attacked in this forum, to the best of my recollection, this is the only alleged injustice you’ve chosen to champion. Not a criticism, just wondering why that is. “I wasn't sitting around crying in my beer” Denise, honestly, I never once pictured you as being a beer drinker. Personally, I can’t stand the stuff, makes a lady smell like a wrestling fan or a weekend pub crawler. Anyway, since you’re a forum moderator, perhaps you could advise me how I can report inappropriate content for particular posts in the discussion forum. I now have two I wish to report, 226 and 261. They’re not the usual rules violation, more like ethics violations, discussing, as well as mischaracterizing, matters that were supposed to be kept confidential. Thanks! |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Gaza blockade 'easing' is a facade "On August 15, 2005, Israel implemented what it called the unilateral Disengagement Plan. What most people saw was a generous gesture from Israel to evict Israeli colonists from Gaza. However, the disengagement was anything but that. The media showed us emotional images of colonists weeping and being forcibly removed from their homes, even though they were there illegally, and their presence meant that the Palestinians were restricted from moving freely in their own land. What we were not shown, though, was the other side of the ‘plan'. Israel maintained that it would control Gaza's airspace, coastline and borders, and had a right to undertake military operations when necessary, which made it effectively the occupying power, under the Geneva Conventions, with responsibility towards the civilian population. Moreover, this ‘disengagement' was a cover-up for increasing colonies and checkpoints in the West Bank. According to Peace Now, an Israeli NGO, the number of colonists increased by 6,100 compared with 2004, to 250,000 in 2005 in the West Bank. The number of colonists as of June 2009 was about 300,000. The United States, EU and even the Secretary-General of the UN Ban Ki-moon praised the disengagement initiative. What we are never shown however, is the number of Palestinian homes demolished in occupied East Jerusalem. In that same year, 76 homes were demolished in occupied East Jerusalem. Just last week, Israel announced it would raze 22 homes. The colony ‘freeze', brought to the forefront this year due to the Obama administration's soft disapproval of colonies, was also another publicity effort to re-affirm Israel's seeming commitment to peace in the public's mind. The colony freeze did not include occupied East Jerusalem, which Netanyahu said is part of Israel's “sovereign capital”— in contravention to international law and UN Security Council resolution 242 in 1967 and every UN resolution confirming it since. Under the Fourth Geneva Convention, the transfer by an Occupying Power of its civilian population to the territory it occupies is illegal and may constitute a war crime. Moreover, the blatant apartheid of Jewish-only roads and facilities was also ignored by the international community." More at: http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=222143 |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
"The thing is that I don't see that Jennifer actually directed that comment toward Denise." "If I thought Jennifer had tossed the five dollar hooker comment your (to Denise) way, I would have said so."....BobK "For the record, I've never called YOU anything, not even a $5 hooker.".....Jennifer to Denise "It wasn’t you who called me a $5 hooker? ".....Jennifer to Denise. Bob, you don't see it because you don't want to. There's the comment said directly to Denise. As far as the stone comment is concerned, it was also referred directly at Denise. You don't want to acknowledge it? Fine but your attempts at redefining it just aren't working very well. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Jennifer, as far as your ethics violation is concerned, your complaint is invalid. You brought up the cryptic $5 hooker comment, which had absolutely nothing to do with the thread and then left, knowing that such a comment would create curiosity and questions from others. Ess wanted to know what the reference was. Grinch wanted an explanation. John wanted an explanation. Ess wanted to know if the mods had deleted something. Grich spoke again about his burning curiosity. I had ignored the first three comments but it got to the point of not addressing it would be more damaging than explaining it, which I did. I did not violate the sanctity of the mod forum. I simply said a ticket had been issued, there was a discussion that you had participated in, and the matter was resolved. I went into no other details, except to say that your concern was my "class" comment, which I offered to delete and the mention of referring to you as a hooker did not come up. No other details were given. You are complaining about an issue you caused. You knew the comment would be fodder for certain people and would provoke questions and comments. Now that it did, to the point an explanation was necessary, you are complaining about the giving of an explanation, which would have been impossible to give without mentioning the ticket issued. If you didn't want it discussed, you shouldn't have brought it up. You took a complaint that was discussed nowhere in the open forums and made it public. if you disagree, show me anywhere in the Alley thread where you or anyone else made it an issue or complaint. Any ethics violation that could be charged would be directed at you, for that reason, but I have no desire to do so and neither does Denise. Why you decided to shoot that arrow in the air, not caring where it fell, is a mystery but, to try to cover it up by shooting more arrows,instead of just letting it go as an "inadvisable and unfortunate" comment on your part, makes less sense. Your fingers worked faster than you mind did. Period. You are not alone. We have all done that on occasion.... |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Excuse me, Balladeer, but your words, your slur implying that I was a $5 hooker, came from and are still right here in the Alley. Post number 54 in this thread: /pip/Forum6/HTML/001944-3.html I was referencing that hateful personal attack posted here in the Alley,I said nothing about any VM forum discussion. You did that yourself in #226 when you stated you were referencing material from a VM discussion: “Afterwards, a person riding to the aid of Jennifer, issued a complaint, sort of, to the moderator forum and a discussion ensued. Due to site policy, details of mod forum discussions are not made public, suffice to say that Jennifer was a large part of that discussion and the thought of me calling her a "hooker" never came up. The issue was that referred to her as "classless". I acknowledged that and apologized for the comment, offering to delete it, which was rejected. The issue was resolved without consequence.” You and Denise violated the Confidentiality rule by discussing in this forum your version of what happened in part in a VM discussion. Here is the Confidentiality rule exactly as posted by Ron. As you can plainly see, it mentions “discussions”in general in the VM forum, and is not restricted to revealing “details”of those discussions. The minute you stated there even was a discussion you were violating the rules. Confidentiality "One of the most important responsibilities in being a Moderator with Passions is understanding the necessity of maintaining confidentiality. Discussions within the moderator forums are intended exclusively for moderators and should not be shared outside of the moderators' confines." To imply I forced you to break the confidentiality rule is ludicrous. The material I was referring to is right here in the Alley. I never mentioned anything about a complaint being filed, you did that, and even threw in a hint about who might have posted it. There was absolutely no need for you to bring up the VM forum discussion other than to spin it your way knowing that your interpretation of what transpired could never be challenged in this forum without violating the Confidentiality rule. You and Denise broke the confidentiality rule. I do have a valid, a very valid complaint. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: That's a flaw in the software, albeit a necessary one. As you know, clicking the Inappropriate Comment button generates a new thread in the VM forum; there has to be some controls in place to prevent a flood of such threads being created. Not just by people, but by spam robots trawling the forums. However, while that presents an occasional problem for Members, it shouldn't present a problem to you. You do, after all, have access to the VM Forum? You can either add to the complaint already addressing this thread or create a new one directly. You knew that, though. Of course, now that you've cleverly found a way of complaining more publicly, perhaps you might as well hash it out in public as well? It's certainly your call. In either event, you have to realize that your complaint is going to sound an awful lot like the Capuletes complaining the Montagues aren't playing nice again. I stopped participating in this forum quite some time ago. My voice was silenced, like so many others I suspect, because I won't willingly be an accomplice to blatant disrespect, constant jabs and insults, and a general, pervasive atmosphere of ill will. This site was founded on the belief that people could discuss anything in a civil, even friendly manner. Respect and tolerance epitomized the spirit of the forums. People can continue to skirt our rules, patting themselves on the back for being oh so clever, but they cannot skirt the spirit. Its lack, in this forum, is palpable. I stopped actively moderating this forum about the same time I stopped participating. That's a weakness on my part, I know. Were I stronger, I would have continued doing my job even though I was dead tired of telling the same things to the same people over and over and over. I was tired, though, busy too, and frankly I was a little curious to see just how far things would go if left unchecked. I knew the answer, of course, but hoped I was wrong. If there is any lesson to be learned from the now defunct Critical Analysis forum it would probably be an observation that I won't beat my head against the same wall forever. Sooner or later, I give up on people. That, too, is a weakness on my part. It is, however, what it is. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Looks like you decided to address your complaint in public, Jennifer? Okay, I have two questions for you, then. Why did you raise the (mischaracterized) $5 hooker comment in this thread? Where was the last thread, prior to this one, in which you discussed it? The answers to those questions, perhaps, will help us all understand the situation a little better. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
"You can either add to the complaint already addressing this thread or create a new one directly. You knew that, though." Actually I didn't realize that and it seems neither did Balladeer or Denise or surely they would have mentioned it seeing it's sort of part of their job as administrator/lead forum moderators to help members with their questions and concerns and they both had ample time to read/respond to my question posted last night in this thread. No, I didn't want the discussion about the Confidentiality violation in this forum in the off chance that I myself might say something that broke the Confidentiality rule. That’s why I asked twice how to post it in the VM forum. I did just three tours as a VM quite a while ago. It simply didn’t occur to me that you could start a discussion in the VM forum about a particular thread without clicking on IC button. But now that you tell me it's possible, I'll give it a try. Thanks for your help. I thought I explained my reason for raising the issue in my reply to Denise in post # 258. Will try again: Some comments are actually personal attacks and others aren’t. Implying someone is a $5 hooker is a personal attack, using the word “stone”isn’t. My last reference to the implied $5 hooker comment? I believe it was when I suggested to Balladeer in an Alley post that he was out of line about something else. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: That surprises me a little, Jennifer, since there are several threads on the first page of the VM forum started by other Volunteer Moderators, at least one of which also served exactly three tours. quote: First, Jennifer, you didn't just "use" the word stone, you used it in reference to another Member. That IS a personal attack because the rule remains "attack the post, not the poster." Indeed, every single person in this thread who decided to characterize other Members in ANY fashion less than complimentary is guilty of infringing our guidelines. More importantly, however, the spirit of the forums, the guiding principles of Respect and Tolerance, have been infringed. Second, no one ever called you a $5 hooker. You claimed, if perhaps subtly, to have manipulated another person so you could win five dollars. Some of us, Jennifer, don't see manipulation of others in a positive light. A hooker only sells her body and, for many, that need not include her integrity. A hooker is at least being honest with others. You clearly weren't. That does not, however, make the comment, however mischaracterized by people with sex on their minds, acceptable. Which is precisely why we had a private conversation to resolve it. And of course, now that you've started a thread in VM, that's also where I'll address your other concerns. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Surprised or not, that’s the way it was. As a matter of fact, I’m kind of embarrassed to find out I did a big DUH. Nope, never mentioned Denise in that post, I was responding solely to Grinch’s comment. I totally agree with you on the manipulation thing. Twisting people’s words and comments to imply they’re personal attacks or racist remarks is really pretty low. I don’t think there’s any other way to read Balladeer’s comment, slavery has been abolished and $5 is below the minimum wage. Perhaps Balladeer needs to enlighten us as to what he meant when he said $5 was about what I was worth? Could make the Alley all bright and beautiful again. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosab_Hassan_Yousef Something else to talk about. . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Excuse me, Balladeer, but your words, your slur implying that I was a $5 hooker, came from and are still right here in the Alley. I was referencing that hateful personal attack posted here in the Alley, Then why didn't you mention it then? You didn't in the thread, nor did you issue a complaint on it. Even when a complaint was made by another person, you did not mention it, although you had ample opportunity. You are now claiming, months later, that it was a personal attack...and doing it in a thread that has absolutely nothing to do with it? Now, all of a sudden, it's a three month old slur because you got called on insulting Denise? Your argument makes no sense at all. You and Denise violated the Confidentiality rule by discussing in this forum your version of what happened in part in a VM discussion. It wasn't "our version" of what happened at all. It was factual, as you well know. Trying to pretend it was something it wasn't does not change it. There was absolutely no need for you to bring up the VM forum discussion other than to spin it your way knowing that your interpretation of what transpired could never be challenged in this forum without violating the Confidentiality rule. Again, there was no spin and no interpretation. A complaint was made and discussed. You were part of the discussion. You did not mention the hooker comment. The matter was resolved. It is dishonest of you to attempt to refer to spin, personal interpretation, or a "version". You know that description is untrue. Since no one else can be privy to the conversation, the mods are the only ones who know your words are untruthful....and yourself, of course. One would think that would give you some concern, but apparently it doesn't. The ploy of answering questions is not going to work for you this time, Jennifer Why did you raise the (mischaracterized) $5 hooker comment in this thread? Ron has asked you, Ess has asked you and I have asked you. You won't respond, which is actually a fairly good response. You opened a hornet's nest and are complaining you got stung. Such is life. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Balladeer, I’ve explained at least twice why I posted that remark. Saying I haven’t responded is an out and out lie. You ought to be ashamed. Of course your $5 hooker, classless, sleazy comment was a personal attack. What else could it possibly be? I asked you in #274 to explain what it was if it wasn’t a personal attack: “I don’t think there’s any other way to read Balladeer’s comment, slavery has been abolished and $5 is below the minimum wage. Perhaps Balladeer needs to enlighten us as to what he meant when he said $5 was about what I was worth? Could make the Alley all bright and beautiful again.” Instead of responding to that request, you go on the attack again. Can’t you think of a way to CYA? Give it a shot, just for old times sake. I know what was said in the VM forum and I know your interpretation and Denise’s were slanted, biased and in no way reflected what most of the discussion was about. Very similar to the way you quote out of context here in the Alley, twist words to mean something that was never intended. Time for some moderation, after all. I've removed the latter part of your post, Jennifer, because it is not in your purview to discuss the VM forum or predict what other posters might or not feel. [This message has been edited by Ron (06-29-2010 07:09 PM).] |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Time is short, so two birds with one stone: 250 posted 04-11-2010 08:35 AM Inappropriate content? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I’m having difficulty understanding why a moderator thinks it’s ok to discuss one PiP member with another, especially when it’s usually in an unfavorable way. I let your $5 hooker personal attack go but I am getting very tired of seeing you, a moderator, trying to press a PiP member into making a comment about another member’s character or intentions. So, Balladeer, I’m asking you to stop. If you want to attack me again, take your best shot, but stop trying to drag other PiP members into your little personal vendetta. Got it? /pip/Forum6/HTML/001959-11.html |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
You misread, Ron. I wasn't predicting I was questioning. I think it's a very valid concern. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You have not responded why you posted that remark, unsolicited, in this thread...and obviously you don't intend to. You continue along the same lines and it's now a waste of time for both of us. Those reading this thread (poor souls) can make their own determinations as to where the truth lies, if they care...and I would doubt they do. Have a nice evening. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Is there any special reason why the "$5" comment is not being removed? It seems like it has been used enough to cause disturbance in enough directions by now that it ought to be removed once and for all! Why would anyone be against that at this point? |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I know it's a typical Republican tactic, Balladeer, but repeating a lie over and over doesn't make it true. I responded to the question in 258 and 272. Feel free to apologize, better yet answer my question, if you weren't implying I was a $5 hooker, what did your five dollar comment mean? Third time's a charm. I'll be waiting. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: If it’s not acceptable Ron then why is it still there? It doesn’t make any sense to hold a meeting behind closed doors, decide that something is unacceptable and then leave it out there for everyone to see. At the very least it gives a casual reader the impression that there isn’t a problem with using such language, they don’t see the discussion that ensued or any apology or explanation sent privately to those offended. Mike raised the point about the length of time between the post and the complaint, does that really matter? If I read it tomorrow and found it offensive and believed it was unacceptable is it automatically acceptable because three months have passed? I think leaving this forum without moderation was a mistake, I understand that you’re busy and this forum has the potential to tire a saint but, and it pains me to say it, but I think that unless it can be moderated properly it serves no positive purpose and should be closed. . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Gentlemen, it's still there because Jennifer requested that it remain. I offered to delete it and she refused, preferring it to remain visible.....to be used in the future, as she has now? Who can say? Ir was her call. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Another misrepresentation. Thanks Balladeer, once again you've proved me right, taking things out of context to CYA is part of the way you work! |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Third time's a charm, Jennifer, because you asked a question a couple of hours ago and are using demanding an answer as a crutch to help you keep avoiding the issue? As I said, this common tactic of yours won't fly here. I explained it in the mod forum thread. You saw it there. You trying to get me to make it public? You willing to have me make your comments in that thread public also? I thought not.... then perhaps you really didn’t feel insulted or attacked, as he has suggested I wasn’t hurt or insulted by the $5 hooker comment? THAT is your reasoning for referring to it in this thread? I can simply say "Show me where I suggested that" and you wouldn't be able to, shooting down that argument. Give it up. You decided to play with matches and got burned. Live with it. I would not disagree with the Alley becoming a casualty of war. Ron was decent enough to set it up with the hopes we would be respectful enough and courteous enough to use it the right way. They Alley and Ron haven't failed us, just the opposite. Insults, sarcasm and personal hard feelings are now the norm. For a site that prides itself on being a family of friends, it reflects that poorly and does not reflect well on the meaning of the site itself. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Jenn, do I have your permission to reproduce your exact words concerning it's non-deletion? You can either say yes or apologize. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Nice try, well not really. Once again it's you who's avoiding answering the question "what did your five dollar comment mean". Yes, I can and will show you that indeed that's exactly what you suggested, after you explain your five dollar comment. You led, others followed your example. You change maybe others will, too. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
After you reply to my question, I'll respond to your request. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Forget it...I'm tired of the merry-go-round and tired of your attempts to avoid the issues. You bring up a question days after the thread began and demand immediate answers, while you yourself continue to evade comments. Allow me to repeat where I did answer your question. I explained it in the mod forum thread. You saw it there. You trying to get me to make it public? You willing to have me make your comments in that thread public also? I thought not.... Don't worry, I didn't expect an apology, nor did I expect you to allow your comments to be made public, since it would prove your allegations false. Go on about your business, miss, and have a good life. I have better things to do than wasting any more of my time beating this dead horse. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
"I explained it in the mod forum thread. You saw it there." Nope, just checked, you didn't explain what the five dollar comment meant. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
If you should change your mind, the offer still stands - you reply to my question and I'll respond to your request. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You mean in the same way you didn't say not to delete the comment? Say goodnight, Gracie. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Is Gracie the dead horse? |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
West Bank poverty 'worse than Gaza' "Children living in the poorest parts of the West Bank face significantly worse conditions than their counterparts in Gaza, a study conducted by an international youth charity has found. The report by Save the Children UK, due to be released on Wednesday, says that families forced from their homes in the West Bank are suffering the effects of grinding poverty, often lacking food, medicine and humanitarian assistance. The European Commission funded study found that in "Area C"- the 60 per cent of the West Bank under direct Israeli control - the poorest sections of society are suffering disproportionately because basic infrastructure is not being repaired due to Israel's refusal to approve the work. Homes, schools, drainage systems and roads are in urgent need of repair, but instead of work being allowed, families are being forced to live in tents and do not have access to clean water. Restrictions on the use of land for agriculture have left thousands of Palestinian children without enough food and many are becoming ill as a result, the study found. Conditions in Area C have reached "crisis point", the charity said, with 79 per cent of the communities surveyed lacking sufficient food - a greater proportion than in blockaded Gaza, where the figure is 61 per cent." http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/06/201062916845576597.html |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Sorry but I don’t understand. Jen gets to choose what unacceptable content remains and what gets deleted? The comment isn’t acceptable, Ron said as much, you presumably apologised and offered to delete it because you thought it was unacceptable, why the heck are you asking Jen whether it should be deleted? Unacceptable = deletion Or are you saying that it is acceptable Mike? If so why did you apologise? . [This message has been edited by Grinch (06-30-2010 03:09 PM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Like I said, Ess, some people get pleasure out of the scratching. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Is scratching like stoning? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I guess you don’t know the answer Mike, I don’t either, which is why I asked. I can’t see any reason at all to leave unacceptable comments in place, you say it was because Jen asked you to but that makes no sense at all. Does anyone know why it wasn't deleted? . |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "Does anyone know why it wasn't deleted?" Bush . |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Can I take it that you don’t know either Huan? . |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Sigh. Yes, Grinch. Someone knows. Did you have another question? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Yes, could someone explain why? . |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
We could, but then we'd have to kill you. Okay, seriously, then. While your interest in how the site is moderated is very much appreciated, this isn't the best way to exercise it. The problem with being an armchair quarterback is that you'll never know everything happening on the sidelines. You can't, because that area of the field is, to some not small extent, private. Put a microphone in the wrong area and confidences will inevitably be breached. The only way to play the game, Grinch, is to get on the field. If you're not in the huddle yourself, you can't really expect to hear the give and take between those who are willing to carry the ball every play. Make sense? |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
More broken promises and a new tactic "Israel shut down Gaza's Kerem Shalom crossing on Wednesday over security concerns, an Israeli official confirmed, shortly after Palestinian Authority officials announced previously banned goods would be permitted entry. Spokeswoman for Israel's Coordination and Liaison Administration in Gaza Nili Aharon said the crossing was sealed after receiving information on potential projectile launching in the area." http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=295688 |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Great News, John, The Judge granted Yousef political asylum today after the DHS removed their previous objection! http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=173101 |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Guess maybe I wasn’t having a tinfoil hat moment after all: They used the cameras to take the pictures that they wanted.to get out http://www.palestinechronicle.com/videos/viewVideo.php?fileID=570 |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Absolutely Ron, confidentiality in an individual or specific case is entirely understandable but it’s the overall policy I’m questioning. There have been several occasions when unacceptable comments have been made in public, where inappropriate content tickets have been raised and upheld by mods but where the comments remain. The claim that inappropriate content won’t be tolerated is a fine ideal but it seems, at least to those in the bleachers, that it’s simply not true. Comments are posted in a public forum, the mods go into a huddle and a private apology is made – off microphone – the comments themselves however remain and to anyone who comes across them they appear 100% tolerated. . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Maybe click report or send the link to a mod or admin, Grinch. Could be a case of it didn’t get done only because “I thought X took care of that”. Hopefully, from now on we won’t be seeing any or as many personal attacks in the Alley as in the past. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Thanks Denise, that's good to see. PS: In a public statement, the student union of the ruling Moderate party (Fria Moderaternas Studentforbund) writes “We can unload the ships”. The statement refers to the boycott that the Swedish Dockworkers Union currently is imposing on Israeli cargo arriving to Sweden as well as Swedish cargo destined for Israel. In response to the Dockworkers Union’s boycott, the young Moderates offered to offload and load those ships which the dockworkers refuse to handle. Their statement reads: “Today, the Swedish Dockworkers Union has initiated a blockade of goods to and from Israel. The reason is that Israel did not let through a number of ships which were aiming to break their naval blockade of Hamas. To so clearly take a stance for Hamas and their unlimited naval access to accept all the goods they wish, including weapons, is a manifestation of hate towards Israel, not a support for the suffering population. Those who really want to have peace in the Middle East should instead take a stance against the terror group Hamas and the horrible suffering which it has caused Gaza’s population. It is Hamas’s fault that people are suffering in Gaza, not Israel’s.” As a sign of their support of Israel the students have consequently decided to act in order to break the Swedish blockade against Israel and load and unload those ships which the dockworkers refuse to handle. Anyone in Sweden interested in helping the Moderate Student Union can contact chairman Gustav Dymov for further information and contact details: Email: gustaf@fmsf.se . |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Do you think that’s a realistic clam Huan or empty rhetoric? Personally I don’t think students will be unloading anything. They don’t own any docks for a start or any of the heavy machinery used to unload modern cargo ships. In addition they don’t have the training, licenses or insurance required by the port authorities to man the machinery and docks that they don’t have. . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Not to worry Grinch, I believe the blockade was over a day or two ago. It was supposed to last only a week. Too late, I'm afraid, for anyone to grab their hard hats and grappling hooks and join in the fun. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Asked this in another thread, perhaps this is a better place to post it: How many troops does our ally Israel have in Iraq and Afghanistan? |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
My understanding is that they have none, Jennifer. You may remember that Israel was specifically asked to stay out of the whole business during the First Gulf War because it would completely mess up the alliances we'd worked out. They were pushing to do so at the time because of the missile strikes on Israel. I suspect that their involvement would only make a terrible situation even worse were they to try to involve themselves now. We've got enough problems that we've created on our own in these places. They are, if anything, an overzealous ally, and one that's quite dangerous to get involved with if we are going to preserve any sort of relationship with the middle-eastern Muslim states. They could very quickly lead us in places that we, even at our most impulsive, would rather not be. That may be one of the few places where the alliance seems to be functioning to everybody's more or less mutual benefit. I hope you're not suggesting they should send some troops. Talk about gasoline on a fire! I shudder at the thought. It's hard enough to try to get them to show any restraint without suggesting we give them their head in potential combat situations. Whatever communication we have with Muslim countries would, at that point, go out the window. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Thanks for your help, Bob, really couldn't find out much. No, not really suggesting they actually send troops, was just trying to figure why, if we're giving them billions every year, it seems we get so little help and so little cooperation from them. Thought maybe I'd missed something. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
This is so sad. We saw IDF soldiers fire a tear gas canister directly at an Al Jazeera reporter in a video I posted a while back, so it's not unreasonable to believe this woman may have been targeted. The IDF is careful to avoid civilians? Seems some of their troops couldn’t care less who gets hit. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gYIdyEG1flAKmpENGdWPjjuoUd7gD9GMQNPO0 |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
We're realistically buying off internal pressure from the Jews in this country who really don't want to see relatives and friends get killed in Israel. A lot of that country was founded on concentration camp survivors and refugees and there isn't a lot of Jewish support over here for allowing Israel to go under. There are loads of lurid fantasies about what that would involve, and with the rhetoric we get over here, some of those fantasies sound like they may be based in fact. Reality says that there is probably a much more two sided series of villainies going on over there than can easily be sorted out. I personally am well aware that Israel has acted exceedingly badly over a very long period of time to the Palestinians and in some cases toward its own Islamic population as well. But there is a mutuality of loathing that seems to jusrtify almost any set of actions to either side that is hard to credit, in somewhat the same way that such things seemed routine in our own civil war. I have offered before the theory of the twin civil wars in my conversations about the area, and I still think it's a reasonable formulation. Reactionary and revolutionary forces are at each others' throats on the Islamic Side, as they try to figure out their religious and political wishes for the next hundred years or so. The same on the Israeli side. These sides are very bitter opponents in each religion. Each side struggles to be the force that represents the religion in the world at large. Neither reactionary nor revolutionary forces in either religion is willing to allow the other the credit for working out a peace with the other religion. It would allow too much of an advantage in the internal struggle. It would also allow too much attention to be refocused onto the internal affairs of other middle eastern states, and the unhappiness of the various islamic peoples living there, in many cases under virtual bondage... Should the internal religious civil wars ever be settled, there would still be the interests of the various dictatorships to be maintained, many of which are allied with one or another of the religious movements. The various displaced people in Palestine were kept in Displaced People's camps following the 1948 war and while they were not allowed back into Israel, though they should have been in at least some cases, they were not allowed to resettle in any of the other Islamic countries either. They were kept there by their Islamic neighbors as potential causes of future conflicts, not simply by the stubbornness of the Israelis. The Palestinians got it from both sides. Helen Thomas made some unfortunate remarks about the Israelis needing to return to Germany or Poland or Russia rather than settling in Israel a few months back, but it did highlight some of the difficulty involved there, though I don't know that people commented on it very much. That is, what would have happened to the Jews if they'd actually tried to go back? There were a lot of places in Europe that seemed very much in favor of the Nazi policy. Not the Danish and not the Dutch, of course, who really tried to put up a resistence to that sort of thing; but the Poles and the Russians and many of the Eastern Europeans found the pograms quite congenial. You might want to check in William Shirer's The Rise and Fall of The Third Reich for some of the details, which are far from pretty. The French were quite anti-semitic, and you might check on the history of Britrish anti-semitism as well. The American variety is common as poison ivy. That's one of the reason that Helen Thomas, whose reportage I have generally respected, seemed to have made a world class silly comment. Some of FDR's comments to Harry Hopkins would be better left unquoted, and I am very pro-FDR. People forget exactly how anti-semitic this country was with Father Coughlin and his pals in the 1930's, and they forget that it was still impossible for Jews to buy or live in many places through the fifties and into the sixties right here. So while it's very important that the Palestinians get a fair deal, and that they get treated honestly and justly, stuff like Helen Thomas was trying to say really is a bit out of place. And there are serious burned bridges behind the Jews in Israel, and the same people who are saying they don't want any new immigrants in the U.S. speaking Spanish will be probably be just as happy to say the same thing about immigrants speaking Hebrew or Arabic. The IDF aren't the world's most pro-arab folks, no. But then the Ms. Congeniality award hasn't been offered to anybody in that area for a very long time, and it really works best in this sort of situation when it gets awarded to everybody at once. And there's certainly enough rancor to go around and plenty left over for seconds. What everybody seems short on is personal responsibility and a willingness to make the first step and then to keep going in the face of setbacks. That's what's needed all around. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
A bit on the overblown side, there, if you'll accept my comment on myself. I do tend to go on. But the point is that both sides have suffered greatly over there, and in other places too, for that matter. It seems unlikely that anybody will be able to make much headway unless they aere able to appreciate the suffering that the other side has endured and — at the same time — be willing to take responsibility for the role they themselves have played in creating that suffering. And then be willing to negotiate from a place that honors what each side has gone through. As in this thread, I think that much of what everybody says has truth to it — not everything, mind you, but much. Fighting amongst ourselves as to which details we have wrong may actually serve some purpose, but not, I think, the greater purpose of getting some peace over there and, really, some peace between ourselves over here. I can't imagine the Palestinians being thrilled with the Israelis under any circumstances. I think the Israelis are in danger. There are good reasons for the Israelis to be in danger. They have without a doubt helped create their situation, and they don't seem to have the will to change. The longer they're there, the worse the trouble it appears they're in. The worse the trouble they're in, the worse they seem to behave. The Arabs have been less than thrilled with first the Jews and then the Israelis for a very long time. They have had a part in creating the difficulty with a long history of anti-Jewish uprisings. They are not as innocent as they would like to appear. Nor are the Israelis. About one thing, though, they seem to be in absolute agreement. It's the other guy's fault. And who can argue with such an appealing proposition. I mean, really! |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxaDmAyt84g&feature=player_embedded#! . |
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