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Lack Of Encouargement
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Lack Of Encouargement |
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Yoinn Senior Member
since 2007-08-16
Posts 649Michigan 
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Yoin |
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| © Copyright 2009 Tim W. - All Rights Reserved | |||
Alison 
since 2008-01-27
Posts 9318Lumpy oatmeal makes me crazy! |
Yoin, I agree that all of us can make more of an effort to provide encouragement to each other. I tend not to go to the teen section because I feel that is their place to share thoughts and explore through poetry. However, I did sign up to be an Admin there within the next few weeks because I agree that we do need to help out and share our thoughts. There are other boards that are overlooked by the majority - maybe we should just broaden our horizons throughout PiP and reach out to others more freely. Thank you for making me take some time to think about this issue. Alison |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Yoinn? I haven't been around for a while, so I don't know if words of the weary should be given an audience. When I first came here, I was anxious and unsure, and through much encouragement, I learned a little bit. Not enough to make me a proper poet, but enough to make me stick around for a bit. And I am at a loss as to what to say to you now. I went through several stages, the first being utter and total joy at finding my people (*smile*) nad wanting to pay that encouragement forward. So I tried very hard to read everything posted--and it was easier to do that when Pip wasn't so big. I tried to accentuate the positive in my replies--but then I got to the "critique" part--and almost everyone has their critique flag turned on--but I found my critiques misunderstood for hostility, very many times.  As a student of poetry myself, I began to question my own authority...so I stopped. As a student of poetry, I began to question my own ability...so I stopped writing too. I understand what you're saying, but I have never reached a point where I felt happy about doing much but replying that I had read and enjoyed. This has chaffed me arse so much that I quit writing for a long time, too. And I still don't like what I write. But there are workshops, and the Deputy Mod forum is helpful to understand how delicately the diplomacy of critique should be handled, especially by the novice. If you have some fresh ideas/solutions, please enlighten me. I'm forty-eight years old and all it did was confuse me. And to think, I once aspired to be a teacher!  |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
It IS a good thing to encourage our younger poets. As Karen pointed out, however, PIP has grown an awful lot during the years. I have a difficult time just keeping up with the poems in Open, where I moderate. People normally tend to frequent most the forums that interest them first. The Dark and Spiritual forums also lack the quantity of responses that the Open forum generates but they don't complain because they know they are playing to a limited audience. Same goes with teen. Obviously, many of the teen members don't relate to the fact that, to get replies, you need to make replies. In the poem you reference, the author who is bemoaning lack of responses has posted eight poem and made NO responses to other's poetry. I would say that weakens her complaint, wouldn't you? Life is giving and receiving and, if PIP can help point that out to our youth, that's not a bad thing. Yoin, you are also classified as a senior member and yet I can only see once in your time here where you responded to a poem in Teen, mentioning that the poet "enjoy her tattoo". So here we have a senior member who doesn't respond to teens chastizing senior members who don't respond to teens concerning a post by a teen complaining of lack of responses who doesn't respond to others. Is this a great world or not? Welcome to the Alley  |
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Yoinn Senior Member
since 2007-08-16
Posts 649Michigan |
I too wondered if only teens should be in the teen forum. But I think reading and repling is fine for adult members. Like I said it would show encouargement for them to write. Thanks Alison. Serenity, I understand the diffculity in giving critiques, there is fine line to walk for sure. But lets be honest, there isn't a lot of hardcore critiquing goin on PIP, And I think thats a good thing and part of what makes PIP succesful. There are other web sites centered on that. I understand as most do that most poem replies are simply a " we appreacitate you" type of response. My point is maybe some of that can be given to the youth that are interested in writing. I don't see why anyone would chaff at helping in that manner. Thanks for responding. Never do injustice to a man who isn't afraid to die because of it. - Yoin |
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Yoinn Senior Member
since 2007-08-16
Posts 649Michigan |
Balladeer, I got exactly the response from you that I anticipated. A plea by me for people to find the time to help others, you want to turn into yet another flame war. "welcome to the alley"...( shakes his head..) Typical. Yoin |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yoin, if you can point out anything I said that was inaccurate, please do so. People give to get in all aspects of life. You have championed a poet who wants to receive without giving. You have admonished senior members for not doing what you do not do. No actual or implied insult at me will change those facts. Yes, I admit, I will say it like it is. Encouraging young poets is a good thing. Do it...and then admonish the rest. Find a young poet willing to respond to others and then champion her. Then you will add validity to your cause. Have a nice day. |
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Yoinn Senior Member
since 2007-08-16
Posts 649Michigan |
Balladeer, Im not going there with you dude. Make up all your own words you want. I champion no one, I admonish no one. I just wanted to point out maybe an area we can as a group could improve on. Now run along and go play already will ya. Yoin |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
This sorta surprised me. With all the poetery minded people here at PIP we are not promoting poetery to the youth? Silly me. I took that as an admonishment, must be my sensitivities I apologize, Yoin. I realize I put you in a defensive position by actually investigating your complaint and finding that you do not participate in what you want others to participate in, nor does the poet who complains about lack of responses participate in responses to others. I did not mean to move you to insults, even though you will not find an insult to you in my posts. Perhaps I should have just said "Nice entry" the way others say "nice poem" and let it go at that. That way we can all walk around with a rosy feeling. NOW I think I'll go out and play....FORE! |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Btw, I did respond to her poem... There's a simple rule by which we live.. If you wanna get you have to give. You want responses? Hey, that's cool. Let's see you live that golden rule. Don't criticize the others who Don't do the same things you don't do. One's time here can be really great When we learn to participate.  Noww, for the last time.....FORE!!!  |
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Falling rain
since 2008-01-31
Posts 2178Small town, Illinois |
I usually stay in Teen myself. And I have noticed that. But the teens in there will post and not comment on others. Its a give an receive type of thing. Sure it would help for Senior Members (or higher) commented on the new and junior members work. But like I said before. Give and you'll receive. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
As Mike pointed out if you want more replies all you need to do is reply to everyone and his brother telling them how good they are and sit back and wait for the reciprocal praise. The quality or potential of the poems or poets, or even poetry in general, is purely incidental, the main goal of this site is to encourage participation and social interaction. |
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crosscountry83 Member
since 2009-07-30
Posts 345 |
"Obviously, many of the teen members don't relate to the fact that, to get replies, you need to make replies." Being a relatively new member and a teen myself, I can see all sides of this. I would try to encourage people to encourage teens to comment. Take it from someone who knows...Rileigh |
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Yoinn Senior Member
since 2007-08-16
Posts 649Michigan |
I see now very clearly that I posted this in the wrong forum. The Alley Trolls have shown that its beneath them to reach out to anyone to help. Making it very clear if there is nothing in it for them then why should they. Take Balladeers statement " People give to get in all aspects of life." Im sorry Mike, not all people share that jaded view. I know I don't and I know many others who give because its the right thing to do and don't expect a thing back. [Edit Personal attack removed - Ron ]As far as my own responses in Teen Poetry. I included myself in those that needed to do more thats why there is a "WE" in my statement you quoted. "This sorta surprised me. With all the poetry minded people here at PIP "WE" are not promoting poetery to the youth?" I know i haven't responded in teen poetry and i knew this BEFORE you pointed it out in your statement. If my intention was to attack anyone I certainly could have gone and made some replies and waited a few days then posted this. Perhaps that is the way you would have done it Mike but not me. I just was pointing out, as I said before, an area that all of us could help improve on. I took the post down and will contact the people personely that I think are evovled enough to perhaps understand the purpose of the post. "Grinch".... nice handle...appropriate Yoin [This message has been edited by Ron (08-22-2009 02:02 PM).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: That's an opinion, Grinch, one based on a limited view and the simple fact that we don't follow the same course to our destination that you might follow. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Then do it. Talking about it just implies you DO want something back. Your request for people to change their behaviors was admirable, Yoin. It just wasn't very credible. Lead by example, not by admonishment. quote: That's a problem, Yoin. When you invite people into a conversation, you don't get to rescind your invitation willy-nilly. Doing so is rude. Do it too many times and you'll find you have to no one willing to listen. |
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Yoinn Senior Member
since 2007-08-16
Posts 649Michigan |
I can and will rescind any post that i make at my descreation Ron, if, as in this case I feel it better suited else where. Im sorry if you have a problem with it. As far as leading by example, I fully intend to and really don't need you to tell me to DO it. Why else would I have taken the time to post it in the first place?. Credible?. I already admited that I included myself in with everybody else. You don't folllow logic or make a bit of sense Ron. How can sombody act on something BEFORE they aware of it. It appears I have struck a nerve with some of the folks here in Alley. This is my last post on this. It doesn't matter how big my feet are....if the shoe fits your foot..then it fits your foot. Period. Yoin Yoin |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Of course it is Ron. I thought that's what was being asked for. Obviously the one I gave may not necessarily match yours, or anyone else's, but that’s probably due to the simple fact that I don't follow the same course to my destination that you might follow. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
It doesn't matter how big my feet are....if the shoe fits your foot..then it fits your foot. Well, there's no way I can top that one so I'll retire, also |
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Alison
since 2008-01-27
Posts 9318Lumpy oatmeal makes me crazy! |
Yoin, I think you brought your post into the Alley ready to do some kind of battle, even before a battle was declared. You are the one who made jabs about political posts - and you did admonish senior members who spend more time on political style posts rather than responding to teens. It doesn't take members of PiP long to figure out how the process works. If you want responses to your poetry, reach out to others and offer responses to their poetry. Another way to gather responses is to thank those who do take the time to share their thoughts. It's simple. There are a group of people who don't want to read any one else's poetry - I'll respond to those people for awhile. However, if I see that they never reach out to others (and no - it doesn't have to be my poetry), I will stop responding to theirs in time. It really doesn't matter which board - there are those who participate and those who want to only read remarks on their own poetry. I actually laughed at Balladeer's response to you and thought - I wish I had written that. I thought he was respectful, but honest in his opinion and his facts. Yoin, I don't really like the Alley either. I find it hard to keep up and I am not a very good debater. However, I think you came in here with attitude blaring. That's too bad because you clouded what could have been a learning conversation. Why not apply to be a DM? Why not participate more in the growth of PiP? If you don't want to that's fine - but don't wait for others to do what you can do yourself. If you think that Teens need more encouragement. Encourage them. Some of us might follow your lead when we see the positive response. I am sorry that you removed your original post. It seemed petty to me. Alison |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I'm sincerely sorry to hear that, Yoin. That being the case, you leave me little choice but to exercise my own descreation and rescind them for you. In advance. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I understood the purpose of the post Yoinn and appreciated why you said it. I think you intended to say something that you felt the youngsters here might not have the nerve to say for themselves. The fact that you haven't posted much in teen yourself doesn't matter at all in my book - I think you did a good job and you ought to proudly put your post back and not worry about sniping. By Mike's criteria I'm probably more qualified to say thanks to you than most, and also to appreciate that it's sometimes not easy for seniors to post in teen. For a start there's the prevalent paranoia in society with child abuse which regrettably extends to doubting even the most innocent actions. Then there is the problem (for some) of communicating and relating to young people. Next there is what to say. Personally I've found the teen forum here at PiP the last bastion of worthwhileness. A while back, before your time, PiP was in fact more than what Grinch now accurately describes it as. Alas that has all finished, except possibly just sometimes in the Teen forum where there is still an eagerness to learn and to discuss among some of the participants. There is also a good deal of raw talent, and a sincerity about writing for writing's sake which doesn't regrettably find much of an echo elsewhere in the site. Chatting and responding to the person rather than the words is a fun past time, but some people come here perhaps believing they will find more. They won't except perhaps in Mike's Workshop , and it's dishonest of anyone to pretend otherwise.Ron himself states it clearly: "... the forums are dedicated to fostering an understanding of the human condition through communication. Our poetry is a vehicle ..." As Grinch said, the poetry in these forums is merely a vehicle. Teens are demanding Yoinn, rightly so, they see through pretence and dishonesty and generally want progress and answers. It could be a lively forum even here at PiP. Go to it! But if you ever feel you need more: /pip/Forum29/HTML/002394.html Peace. |
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brneyedgrly Senior Member
since 2009-06-08
Posts 1125nowhere and everywhere |
____________________________________________ There is also a good deal of raw talent, and a sincerity about writing for writing's sake which doesn't regrettably find much of an echo elsewhere in the site. ____________________________________________ I have to take issue with this statement, moonbeam... I call a foul... shellie . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I have to agree with Shellie. Criticizing the other forums makes little sense to me here. |
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brneyedgrly Senior Member
since 2009-06-08
Posts 1125nowhere and everywhere |
thanks, deer...first dip into the alley... was a little nervous  . |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
Doesn't it get tiresome having those who are newer or newest on these forums complain about how it is run or how we create poetry or respond to others. I feel like telling some to "GET A LIFE!" and to stop bragging about how many other forums they post on the internet or how many are better forums than what we have here. If that is the case then why be here? Many of us on here and those who have been here for almost 10 years or so are here because we enjoy reading and writing poetry and prose and came from sites that either closed down or had so much in-fighting or spam that it became unbearable. Some read more than others and some post more than others. It shouldn't be a dumping ground for some from other poetry forums to drop 3 a day but never respond to others, either. I did go and respond today, as I sometimes do, to not just teens but those who have "0's" next to their names but only because I have the time and if I understood what they were writing about. A forum can't be all things to all people. And believe it or not many on here do have lives outside of poetry and may not have as much time to be on as others do. Besides that, I have had many poems before on here that have been lucky to have 3-5 responses and I don't get upset because I don't post just for the replies. Many people on here have met in real, have friendships on line, too, but don't EXPECT replies just because of that. One more thing, some of us may not feel comfortable critiquing a poem the way others may be able to. And if all we do is pick a favorite line or say something complimentary or if we know the poem has to do with real life and comment on it for support...what is wrong with that??? Anyway...I have been following this and wanted to have a voice. I am sure there will be some or even many who will disagree with me...but this is all I intend to say since I don't like "alley" fights. M |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Moon, there is absolutely nothing mere about a vehicle that takes you where you need to go. A poem that doesn't communicate something to someone somewhere is like a pretty shiny Mustang you bought off the new car lot and then parked in your garage for the next thirty years. If it brings you personal pleasure, fine, but please don't ask me to spend the night in your garage with it. I want to GO somewhere. Grinch and Moonbeam are pretty much on the same page (at least in this) and always have been. For them, the path to learning or teaching is strewn with very recognizable landmarks. When those landmarks are absent, they get a little lost, I think. They forget, perhaps, that metaphorically, all roads lead to Rome. That's okay. This site has never tried to be all things to all people. Throwing a dictionary and grammar primer into a baby's crib is potentially one way to teach him to talk. It's never been my way. I have always believed that good communication isn't simply taught. First, it is made desirable. Then, it can be emulated. Many of us need to see something to make it work. Later, sometimes much later, when everyone is finally ready, we can sit down and talk about WHY something works. We're all on the same path. We're all heading in the same direction, moving towards the same destination. Fortunately, however, we're not all crowded into that same little bend in the road. I suspect it would get uncomfortably crowded if we were. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Well, another chance to make myself unpopular . . . I’ve always considered PIP more of a social rather than a poetry site. The truth is the poetry here including my own usually tends to swim at the shallow end of the pool, which I personally don’t have a problem with. Randall Jarrell said that a poet is: “someone who is always standing outside in a storm in hope of being struck by lightning; should that happen five or six times he is a good poet, a dozen or more a great one”. To me that price is too high. For anyone who is serious, (for which he or she has my sympathy), there’s my Word File of poems by others which I’ve collected over the past ten to fifteen years now close to five hundred pages. If they ask for it I send it as far better company and encouragement than I, who am not a poet, could ever offer. . |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Not even close Ron. We do agree on some things but this definitely isn't one of them. Moon is passionate that poetry and the advancement of poetry should be central on a poetry site. Which is a legitimate opinion with some merits. I accept that people are central although I recognise that in accepting that I also have to accept some unpleasant and, at least to me, frustrating side effects. Poetry on a people centric site isn't the main focus, the main focus is social interaction or as you put it, communication. That's not to say that the quality of poetry and poets aren't improved, it's just that, as I said earlier, the improvement is an incidental by-product of the interaction rather than a specific aim. Call it poetry by osmosis if you like. Moon is passionate about poetry; to be brutally honest I don't share his passion. I enjoy explaining what an .ini file is or debating the health bill a lot more than I enjoy writing poetry. . |
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Alison
since 2008-01-27
Posts 9318Lumpy oatmeal makes me crazy! |
quote: Why would this be a problem to anyone? Can't poetry be written just for the enjoyment of writing it? Not all of us have high asperations of being a famous, well-received poet. I learn a lot from watching and sharing thoughts. Sometimes I walk away and learn how I don't want to write. But, some one else loves that same poem that I mentally rejected. I am sorry that there is no CA board in PiP now. I didn't use it much - but I learned a lot from it. Sometimes, I learned how NOT to critique. Sometimes, I learned pointers that I could apply to my writing. I wish we had a forum similar to the CA now. I also think that time here and who has met who (whom?) doesn't mean a lot to many of us. It's great that there have been PiP get-togethers. It's great that there will be more tomorrow. That does not mean that those who have not been here for a decade have less reason to have opinions. I don't agree with Yoin, but I think he had a right to express his wrong opinion (that was a joke, Yoin!). Who cares how long he has been a member? He's here now and he has been participating - that makes him okay in my book. That length of time speech was given to me when I first came to PiP too - it almost made me leave. Alison |
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crosscountry83 Member
since 2009-07-30
Posts 345 |
I'm glad you didn't leave Allison. Ugh, can't even think of what it would be like... (shudders) I really do agree with you, I wish we had a critical analysis forum. Why isn't there one anymore? Rileigh |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
How is one to understand poetry without understanding the people who write it, AND, the political/socioeconomic climate in which it is written? Can we study Beethoven or Goya without understanding Napoleon? Shelly's Frankenstein without understanding the weather during 1816? I don't think it was ever Ron's intention for the Alley to become a political stomping ground -- but I think it was inevitable, and essential -- to a good poetry forum. I don't feel much like a poet at this point in my life and therefor don't write (or read) a lot of poetry (much to the appreciation of the fans of good poetry!) I am though, interested in people, and how and why we think and do. My own interpretation of the teen forums has always been 'of and by'. Teens are, after all, as welcome in the Open forum as any. |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
just to defend my "length of time" usage in my response...it wasn't to deter nor to mean that those here longer have any more pull on this forum site nor that they are better writers. Nor did I mean to imply that having met in real leaves others out. Alison, I am hurt by the fact that these comments were used in the negative when they were to show that if people have stayed around that long and also have had the opportunity to meet others that have something in common with them...then this site has had a good affect on some of our lives. Just as some would rather argue pro and con in the alley or philosophy only, giving them a place to share their knowledge. Ron has given us many means to communicate. Many have improved in their poetry and for those who think the poetry at the shallow end...well that is just their opinion as we all have them. Words have many meanings and taken out of context is one of the major problems with being on line and unvoiced. One more comment, there is also a suggestion forum... which is probably where Yoinn's idea may have been better placed. [This message has been edited by nakdthoughts (08-23-2009 11:22 AM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Sorry Shellie it wasn't meant as an adverse criticism. It's simply that I pesonally regret it, it's not for me, it's an opinion only. There is certainly nothing inherently "wrong" with the forums - they serve a purpose and people have a wonderful time there, and that's fine. I don't have a lot of time, but as usual your response was bang on target Ron, and entirely predictable and understandable. We don't disagree as much as we may appear to. I believe, like you, that all forms of art are forms of communication between people. How can they be otherwise? They are what they are. The reason I used the word "mere" was simply to suggest this inevitablity, this intrinsic property. Your Mustang analogy is apposite. Do you want to get where you're going in that Mustang Ron or in a hastily, knocked together soapbox on wheels? Sure you can travel in a soapbox and move forward; it's true many people have no pride in their cars and no interest in improving them. And therein I think lies the difference bewteen us vis a vis this site: you place all the emphasis on the journey and I am constantly trying to improve the vehicle in which we travel so that it's very presence enhances the experience of the journey instead of being a "mere" conveyance. The two can I guess conflict; as when I want to slow down or stop to retouch a dent or scratch and you want to push on. I kind of hoped that PiP would be a racecourse where there was room for both wheeled soapboxes and aspiring Mustangs. Grinch is only partly right you see. Within the whole racecourse site there might have been different circuits. |
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brneyedgrly Senior Member
since 2009-06-08
Posts 1125nowhere and everywhere |
Ron Why don't you create new forums called 'Wheeled Soapboxes' and 'Aspiring Mustangs' and then Moonbeam and the others could argue over who deserves to be in which category...lol All I can say, and these hopefully will be my last words, is that I am a proud soapbox and a newbie and due to some harassment on the site lately, I have looked at other sites to go to...but can't find one as fitting as Pip. So.......I'm here to stay for many reasons, including to continually learn how to write and I think I am in really great company. You know, it takes a lot of courage to put oneself out there...I have an anxiety attack each time I'm ready to press submit. It doesn't help to know that people think it unworthy. Moonbeam.......would love to see some of your Mustang work! Maureen  understood what you were saying.Thanks for your time. Shel . |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: ~sigh~ Why are people so determined to find a problem? Shel, what part of: "Sorry Shellie it wasn't meant as an adverse criticism. It's simply that I personally regret it, it's not for me, it's an opinion only. There is certainly nothing inherently "wrong" with the forums - they serve a purpose and people have a wonderful time there, and that's fine." didn't you get? But to spell it out, there's nothing "unworthy" about using poetry purely as a means of communication. And if you want to see my work just do a search on my name, the search button at the top of the page. In point of fact I like your writing a lot, and your suggestions to Ron have been made many times. He doesn't want to go that route, and I don't blame him really. And to Maureen: I agree with Alison, longevity gives no monopoly on valid opinion; and anyway I've been here longer than you. |
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brneyedgrly Senior Member
since 2009-06-08
Posts 1125nowhere and everywhere |
ummm...I did do a search stand by my statements and refuse to argue thanks |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I refuse to argue too - no-one is making judgements here, we all write for different reasons all are equally valid imo. You misunderstood me is all.Take care and peace. |
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brneyedgrly Senior Member
since 2009-06-08
Posts 1125nowhere and everywhere |
no hard feelings... don't need any more unpleasantness here shel |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
 Hugs right back Shel. I need to work on expressing myself better. |
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Alison
since 2008-01-27
Posts 9318Lumpy oatmeal makes me crazy! |
Maureen, I am truly sorry that I hurt you with my response to your post. Alison |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
moonbeam, as usual you are taking my longevity out of context and you don't know how long I have been here since I was under another name when first here... so you can agree with Alison although my full sentence on the length of time began with "Many of us on here and those who have been here for almost 10 years.... so it seems like you just want to continue to argue and I am done... Thank you Alison, I hope you understand that it was a misunderstanding. M |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “And gentlemen in England now abed . . .” Pretty much goes for poets too. Poetry is not life. . |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
.. Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here And hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks That fought with us upon St. Crispin's Day. I thought St. Crispin's day was the 25th of October. . |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. That my friend depends on whom you're talking to . . . . |
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