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The good Reverend
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The good Reverend |
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wranx Member Elite
since 2002-06-07
Posts 3689Moved from a shack to a barn 
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Is it me? Or does our new president's recent press conference and and mini-tour promoting a bigger, better way to flush an immense amount of borrowed money down the drain resemble an old fashioned tent revival? I mean, I listened...and I heard preaching as good as any. Don't get me wrong...I hate virtually all politicians fairly equally. Something unsavory about the way they make their living. But this salve of rhetoric is unnerving. That it's effective, even more so |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
This will shock Mike: I actually have a lot of sympathy for this pov! This is one area where I instinctively feel that Obama's god-like status at present could be very dangerous. I remember Grinch making a post a while back pointing out that while borrowing to spend massively to reduce the effects of a recession which has at least partly arisen from (or been exacerbated by) borrowing too much is counter-intuitive, it nevertheless makes economic sense. Attractively simple though the pump priming Keynesian model is, I am by no means convinced that in the circumstances that prevail in today's difficulties that it would not ultimately make things a lot worse. Having said that, I think that Keynes mainly advocated an expansion of the money supply as, for instance, in printing more money. Given the deflationary pressures at least in this country (UK) this might in fact be a far less damaging in the medium term than saddling our western economies with more and more "foreign" debt. It does therefore worry me that Obama seems to be flinging his not inconsiderable power behind the borrow and spend movement just at a time when, on this side of the Atlantic, people may be beginning to wake up to the fact that Gordon Brown has no clue. [This message has been edited by moonbeam (02-11-2009 04:26 AM).] |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Wranx, I've been watching, and have similar feelings to yours. While I can appreciate his one-on-one approach to the public, I think he's going to make promises he won't be able to keep. I also get the feeling that since he doesn't like being cooped up in the White House, all we're going to see for the next four years is a continuation of his stumping process for the following four years following this period of his presidency. Is there also an additional cost to the public for additional security for all of his visible touring? Sigh. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Good grief Sunshine give him a chance, he's been in office less than a month and you are already sighing over what might be; or is that what you hope will be? |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
MB, I sighed because I'm tired of the political mess we're in; I see no real opportunity in the next four years for it to change much, and I'm normally the hoptimist on these boards. I want him to make a GREAT difference, I really do. In fact, I've been watching this man for a long time. And looking into what has been reported on his past, as well. I have to agree with Wranx on this...I think we elected ourselves a preacher... not a doer.  But I'll be the first to applaud something really good from his administration, in toto.  |
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turtle Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548Harbor |
I agree that this guy deserves a chance. Personnally, my perspective leans to the left, but his background, his influences, his lack of experience, scares the hell out of me. Right now, the fate of this nation spins in air. At best the next four years are going to be a coin toss. Has anyone seen my tent??? I swear! It was there a minute ago!  turtle |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
He will continue giving speeches because that's what he does best. That's what got him recognized enough to be considered a presidential candidate and that's what got him elected, as a man with very limited experience who spoke well. Can he walk the walk? That's what we will have to see. Where is Brother Love when you need him????  |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Think, and don't drink the Kool Aid however many others do. . |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: !! For heavens sake Karilea - the guy just got himself elected President in a marathon contest. How can you say that! |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
She refers to him as being a preacher. He got elected by being a preacher. I would think that's what she means. Just a guess... |
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wranx Member Elite
since 2002-06-07
Posts 3689Moved from a shack to a barn |
concur with Mike The man is doing what he does best. Lord knows we need him to succeed as President, or at least not make what is already dreadful, worse still. But right now all I see is a politician decrying politics. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Judging by his appointments so far, I'm afraid we see another Clinton administration. Hopefully, this one can at least keep his pants on in the oval office. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
LOL. Words are such funny things. What some people call patience, others call procrastination. What some call focus, others call obsession. And, of course, what some call communication, others will inevitably call preaching. It's apparently all a matter of perspective? I'm staying out of this one, though. I've faced similar accusation, within these very walls, of occasionally straying into the pulpit. I only wish I could have learned to be half as convincing as President Obama has been. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
quote: I certainly respect Obama's words, preaching or not, much more than I respect yours. |
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wranx Member Elite
since 2002-06-07
Posts 3689Moved from a shack to a barn |
You're right Ron, perspective is key. Semantics too. Any politico knows this, or should. And well practiced wordcraft coupled with an unparalleled charisma seems, to me, potentially disastrous. (and yes, there is potential for greatness as well. I'm just not optimistic) But that's merely my own tin foil-hatted perception. *smile* |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Within the first few weeks of my first being with the walls of Passions, I saw Ron "do". A lot of things. That included putting me in a place when I thought I was being "cute" to telling me that my insight wasn't what I thought it could have been. I've learned a heck of a lot since that time. MB, I don't know your age, yet if you've looked through the archives, if anything, then you probably have a good idea of my age. And that's OK. I don't have anything to hide. In fact, I'm always the first one to say that I'm a bit naive, and I may not be quite up on the politics as I sense that you may think yourself to be...and that's okay too. I've always got a lot to learn, and I learn something new every day. Every day. That's why I said I would be the first to applaud if something goes right. But I won't slap anyone in the face if nothing does. What I guess I haven't said, and I'll say it now... Is that the United States has lost a lot in the last few decades. The US has lost it guts in the people who haven't signed up for the service, but not to say that it lost itself in the people who simply believe in their armed forces; it hasn't done it's job in aligning itself with the original consititution, but read above; the US has let a lot of stuff slide by...all to its detriment. And in that statement, there's nothing to read in the above. Those who believe in the United States and its original core of a place where one could not only in their religious right, but in their right to freedom, would probably not want a socialist state to rule over them. That's what their forefathers ran away from in the first place. When government gets so big as to take away your rights; to tell you "how it's going to be" and, God forbid, possibly even eventually take away your right to vote [because, believe me, as I hear and see and sense it now, that's where we're heading] then yes, I think that what I've said is as good as my knowledge can be at this time. Even John/Huan's reference is correct...watch out for the Kool-Aid. My email shows - so if we need a personal conference to get to each other's core beliefs, feel free to email me. I still willingly admit, I'm open to listening to anyone's voice. Even a diatribe. We all have a platform. And Ron, as Wranx and you both point out, perspection and perspective is key. And MB, it does take more than four weeks. But what I'm seeing rings bells of historical note. And right now, I'm listening to history. Again, I don't know your age; but I'm one that has read some, and probably fear more than you might. Be well, and know that this is not personal except to me. |
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wranx Member Elite
since 2002-06-07
Posts 3689Moved from a shack to a barn |
Well that's fine essorant, and certainly your right. Although, I can certainly admire one's words, I'd much prefer to respect one's actions. It just happens that there are VERY few "professional" politicians that I have a whit of respect for...indeed, on the whole,I find them loathsome. But that's just me Have a good evening |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Well, what would you do differently and better if you were in Obama's place? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Um...Essorant? Wranx does have some practical experience as a politician. He ran for mayor, I do believe. On that note, I'd like to hear what, exactly, he'd have to bring to the national table, assuming he won that mayoral candidacy, and then perhaps he upped onward to governor (oh, capital G) then maybe Senator YETI?) How would YOU choose your cabinet? Would they be hairy? and if so, I'm assuming you'd get a nice product placement kick-back? *frown* GoverNAIR? Not only stinks, it smarts.   |
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wranx Member Elite
since 2002-06-07
Posts 3689Moved from a shack to a barn |
First, It'd be impossible for me to occupy Obama's shoes. My sterling personality aside, I am, in most other respects, lacking the attributes that get one elected. (I be "scary looking") That being said, if I were to wake up one fine morning saddled with the challenges he, not so much inherited, as sought... I would let the businesses now being rewarded for bad behavior fail as they should, as they deserve. I imagine money used to aid the establishment of new banks would be better spent. Housing would take its natural course. Bad mortgages would be foreclosed on, the properties auctioned, and bought by folks who can actually afford to pay for them. Housing prices would fall, yes, but they are falling now. Real estate prices have been artificially inflated by speculative avarice and need to correct. We may have to say goodbye domestic autos as well. They allowed the unions too much power over their business. Detroit had its day. It didn't see (or ignored) the writing on the wall and in its arrogance did not adapt to the market until much too late. I'm sure there are auto manufacturers on this planet willing to gobble up Detroit's assets at fire sale prices and put people back to work. Whoa! all that could lead to a depression! Don't look now, but we are presently enjoying one. I'd rather us take our licks now and start anew, instead of deferring our whipping to the grandkids. But then, that's me. Over-opinionated, under educated and little to lose. Mostly, I find this kind of free-for-all spending unconscionable. There's just too many miscreants willing to "mislay" some of that 100s of billons. And mislaid funds help only a very select few. What? You say its already happened? Oh My! |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Karilea, not too sure how relevant age is, but check out this: /pip/Forum6/HTML/001788.html#3 for a reasonable estimate of mine! I'll be back later on this thread. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Thank you, MB. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Eddie?  I'm cracking up here, 'cause um, you, me and maybe that Kevin Spacey guy from American Beauty all share the same goal: "I'd like a job with as little responsibility as possible." I just happen to feel sorry for Obama. Even with all the honors and cool perks of the job--I think I'd opt for... "Would you like fries with that?"  and *wink* to Kari. grins |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Karilea I'm certainly not "up on the politics" of the US, and if I gave you that impression it's probably just my usual bombastic tone, and I apologise. All I was saying really was that a few weeks is an extraordinarily short time to start making extrapolations imo, even with the benefit of close historical precedents. I just think that it's more relevant and uplifting right now to look at what he HAS already achieved in his life and assume that he will carry that level of activity and "doing" into his Presidential term, rather than trying to guess what might happen based upon the lives and performances of former Presidents. On the age thing, I happen to feel that it's very dangerous to assume that age = wisdom and good judgement, which is what you seem to be implying. Sure there are some who profit from the experience of years, but equally there are those who become hopelessly entrenched in their ways and views to the extent that their so called experience actually becomes a handicap in debate. Equally there are youngsters who are impossibly naive and yet always think they are right, and again, there are teens who bring a new and refreshing approach to thinking which often opens avenues which more traditional views might miss. quote: Yep Ron, you're right it's very simple. Patience, focus, communication = those who like Obama and wanted him as their President Procrastination, obsession, preaching = those who dislike him and did not want him. And I think you underestimate your own powers of persuasion Ron, while at the same time you recognise just how important the talking, preaching, communication (call it what you will) is for a man in Obama's position. To all intents and purposes imo it forms a very great proportion of what Karilea calls the "doing". |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Also I don't get this thing that you, and now Balladeer, seem to have about him leaving the White House. It seems to me a refreshing change to see a President willing to get out and speak to people directly, willing to answer directly for his decisions, and also brave enough to do so. And if it costs a lot to protect him perhaps the people of the US should ask why he needs that massive protection? Why is it that as time has gone on successive Presidents have had to barricade themselves behind an increasing army of gun-toting bodyguards? Don't you think that something is going wrong? Perhaps what you need is a brave and determined man to try to reverse the circumstances that lead the world to witness something that resembles the X-Men meets The Godfather every time your President steps out of his bunker, oops, sorry, I mean, home. Or would you prefer the trend to continue until you reach the (inevitable) stage where you never see the person who leads you - like in one of those sci-fi films where the population are controlled zombies venerating a computer generated image of "The One"? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Me? I'm just following the lead of the Democrats who ridiculed Bush for being at the ranch instead of the White House, as if there were no computers, communication or any way to be involved with the running of the country if he were not physically there. It seems stranger in this case when were are talking about (according to him) the possible destruction of the country, the largest spending package in history, the largest tax cut in history, things that will affect the country for years to come...and there is Pelosi, Reid and Congress working on it constantly, discussing it, debating it, working to get it ready....and Obama is out, holding people's hands and telling them it will be all right. Perhaps he doesn't need to be in Washington at all. Pelosi and Reid can run the country and he can play good-will ambassador, touring the country and spreading good will. I have little doubt THEY feel they are running the show. Yes, moonbeam, I can see your point about having a President who will get out among the people and be accessible.....but, right now, at a time that is supposed to be so very crucial to the future of the country, I'd rather see him in Washington, sleeves rolled up, working his butt off to make sure things get done right. If they can do it without him, what does that say? It's almost as if Pelosi told him to go out and spread good cheer while the adults do the actual work. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Again, Mike, I think you're too concerned with "done right." A hurricane just took off half our roof and you keep arguing about what grade of plywood we should be using to cover the holes? Obama, I think, is doing exactly the same thing President Reagan did so well; taking his message directly to the people. He knows, as did Reagan, that convincing the people to give their support creates pressure in Washington. Pressure gets things done. While I'm sure Obama is not uninterested in doing it right, Mike, I think he's much more interested in doing it right now. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
convincing the people to give their support creates pressure in Washington ...and how much pressure is going to be created between today and tomorrow by the people on Washington when it comes to a vote, Ron? The people aren't going to make a difference, Ron. Congress is the only player here. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
In a moment of wild confusion, I'd thought that the congress was a stand in for the people here. They might even be a particularly good representative sample coming so quickly after an election when the feelings about the previous administration had been made especially clear. One would have expected that Democrats would actually have lost membership in the House and the Senate, considering their lack of backbone in standing up to the Republican economic and foreign policies in the two years before that. Not so. But I think this is about as close as you can get to having an actual reflection of what folks seem to want in terms of policy decisions at this point. I'm not saying that you should like it, Mike, because it's not what you want; and the reality is we won't actually know if it's a good decision for the country for probably another two to three years. That's a very long wait for a potentially scary outcome. It may not work. Anybody who says it will is a fool: Nobody can read the future. All you can do is to make the best guess you can and construct the best plan you can based on that guess. I think Obama's done that much. Pretense that one can't or hasn't or won't make mistakes was one of the more troubling things about the last administration. I think that Obama's trying to make a point of letting his fallibility be known. Perhaps he may be a little too quick to do so and takes responsibility for things that may not be his fault or that aren't really so terrible, I don't know. It does give his political opponents ammunition they wouldn't otherwise have, but I can't tell how wise it will prove to be in terms of long term strategy at this point. It may work out well. My sense is that if a politician makes a point of denying everything, people start to think he's a liar pretty quickly, and the reputation is hard to shake. If a guy takes responsibility most of the time, it make make his denials more believable when he makes them. I hope it works that way, especially if he tries to stick to the truth. It would make the country so much more solid in its own eyes, the sense that we have reestablished for ourselves and for the world that when we say something you can take it to the bank. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
we won't actually know if it's a good decision for the country for probably another two to three years. That's not the way it's being peddled, Bob. It is being tauted as having IMMEDIATE results. In the long run, it is generally accepted by the CBO and Ron that it WILL have a detrimental effect on the country in the future. All you can do is to make the best guess you can and construct the best plan you can based on that guess. So the supposed future of the entire country is to be determined by a guess? That's why we elect these people, so they can go to Washington and guess? I think that Obama's trying to make a point of letting his fallibility be known. He has already made that point, Bob. This would not be his first apology to the American people. especially if he tries to stick to the truth. He blew that one at the Caterpillar factory and who knows where else? Sorry to sound so negative but I've never been a fan of the "Do something even if it's wrong" philosophy...and the little pork extras slipped into it make me doubt the sincerity behind it. Acorn, who Obama worked for, gets a lot of money out of it. Hollywood, fund raisers deluxe for Obama, get a lot of money out of it. It gives me the feeling that Obama is paying back some favors and setting himself up as a hero at the same time. Quite a feat if he can do it. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
It's an unprecedented situation. I want to know Ed, what would you do? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I'd emulate the actions of a good mother with her child in a frightening storm. |
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