»
Discussion
»
The Alley
»
"For God's sake, rescue them!"
| The Alley |
|
"For God's sake, rescue them!" |
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_israel_gaza_overwhelmed_hospital http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5454671.ece http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/9945 |
||
| © Copyright 2009 JenniferMaxwell - All Rights Reserved | |||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Maybe it would be better to make them stop relentlessly launching explosives into Israel. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
It would also be better if they stopped setting up camp in hospitals, schools and churches and hiding behind women and children.. |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I agree with Pete. Can you imagine what Bush (or JFK circa 1962) would do if Cuba sent just a single missile into United States soil? Actions have consequences. The real tragedy here, as in all war, is that those not responsible for the actions are often the first to face the consequences. The outrage is that those hiding behind the innocent . . . know it. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I think perhaps Jennifer is a descendant of Abraham Linking or perhaps she is just a lynx  |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Just so you know, Balladeer, I feel your post calling me a name is insulting and a personal attack so I reported it. Adding a wink doesn't make it humorous, it makes it more offensive. |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I followed the first link, just to find out what the topic was going to be about. Honestly, I don't usually follow a blind link at all. I certainly don't follow more than one. That's not because I don't appreciate the information because I do. I just usually get my news outside these forums and reserve my time here for talking to people. I could probably think of a few things I could say to news.yahoo.com, but I doubt anyone over there would be willing to listen. It just wouldn't be much of a conversation. Does anyone besides Yahoo and CNN have something to say?  |
||
|
Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
No matter what steps are taken, the real tragedy is always what happens to the 'innocents' who are forced to grow up in terror, seeing body parts and often being severely injured, many killed. My heart hurts for them, in the Middle East, Darfur...or anywhere else. But Hamas MUST stop the constant bombardment and terror campaign against the Israelis, stop attempting to destroy an entire culture and religion, as they have vowed to do. I lived in Israel for a year and remember vividly the sound of Katayusha rockets coming over the border. I remember as if it were yesterday, the afternoon a grenade was tossed onto Jerusalem's Via Dela Rosa not far behind me. An eleven year old Arab girl was buried that day. I also remember seeing/feeling the jolt when a bus blew up behind mine coming out of Tel Aviv; having to lie prone on a bus floor for over an hour in 98+F heat while an Israeli patrol took control of a handful of snipers who were shooting at us. We live in a world of violence and repression, with global terrorism in the news daily. I can only dream and hope that some day humans will accept the truth of diversity, and treat all others on this planet with equal rights and opportunities. Gaza is very close to my heart and mind, which are suffering greatly knowing how difficult to impossible it seems to find a ray of hope that peace will ever prevail. All I can say is the sooner this episode ends and some semblance of stability is restored, the sooner the children can be 'rescued' from the horrors of all this constant chaos and experience a more 'normal' life. |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Ron's point shouldn't be avoided or evaded. Hamas, (trained and equiped by Iran), is the problem. They deliberatley use civilians as shields and to create casualties, (they've gone so far as to deny them exit to Egypt for treatment when wounded). They had their chance when Isreal pulled out in 2005, and chose instead to continue in their purpose to destroy Isreal and its people. "In the ultimate goodwill gesture, Israelis withdrew from Gaza in August 2005. Israeli soldiers literally dragged devout Jews kicking and screaming from land they believed the Torah granted them. Authorities evacuated 21 Jewish settlements, dismantled 38 synagogues, and even excavated 47 deceased Jews from Gaza’s Gush Katif cemetery. Unwanted dead or alive, the Israelis vanished from Gaza without a trace. The 8,150 Jews who lived there linger only in the memories of their Palestinian ex-neighbors. . . Israel is now defending itself appropriately, despite the predictable hair-pulling of anti-Israeli journalists and activists. Some complain that Israel’s response is not proportional. If proportionality is key, may Israel shoot 5,422 missiles and mortars indiscriminately into Gaza’s residential neighborhoods? Israel’s critics scream when Palestinians tragically suffer collateral damage from its attacks on Hamas’s armaments. But they hush up when Hamas uses Gazans as human shields. Hamas’s TV broadcasts ask civilian men, women, and children to protect suspected terror sites from expected Israeli strikes. Hamas wins either way: If Israel retreats, to spare unarmed civilians, Hamas ridicules Israeli weakness. And if Israel attacks, Hamas hollers about Israel’s anti-Palestinian carnage . . . “For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land,” Hamas parliamentarian Fathi Hammad said on Al-Aqsa TV last February 29. “This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: ‘We desire death like you desire life.’" http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=M2Y2ZjQ1YTM2ZjFmODM3NzIyZDU1NDgyZTZlNzc1N2E= |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Sorry it's taken so long tp get back to this stirring conversation. feel your post calling me a name is insulting and a personal attack so I reported it. Ok, I'm confused. If you'll point out what name I called you, it will help....but I doubt it. |
||
|
Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Calm down, Jen. Balladeer was just joking. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
John, you are right, of course. Ron's point is completely disregarded, as would be any other's who pointed out the same. Interesting how the attacker is disregarded and the attacked demonized for retaliation. I saw no such outrage at Hamas rockets killing civilians. Israel's message had been clear.....STOP! But Hamas found that unacceptable. The Hamas leader on tv clearly stated that actions would not cease until Israel was destroyed as a country, no matter what they did. How does one reason with that? When Hamas hides behind women and children, are they blamed when the women and children are injured or killed. Nope, they are not. The Hamas leader stated two days ago that Israel was retailiating the killing of their women and children by killing women and children in Gaza. I find that to be an incredible statement..... Right, Essorant. I thought the play on words would be obvious but I was obviously mistaken. I'll be more careful in the future. |
||
|
rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Does anyone out there feel that Israel issues idle threats or warnings? In the 42 years I've been alive, Israel has been firmly sincere with their conditions/declarations of combat, offensive and defensive. I don't know about everything else they practice, but I'm way over here and anyone close to them should know by now not to hurl explosives into Israel (and expect them to balk or rethink their aims in life.) Hamas heartless hapless hopeless...now... sighs the news isn't news, it's just running and screaming from what those in charge knew and know. |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Our software doesn't make it easy, but I've split this thread as best I could into two separate threads; this one for discussion and another in Announcements & Links where people can follow the links as they wish. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
You missed one in John's post #8. Or is it just links I've posted that you're deleting from the thread? |
||
|
Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Playing devils advocate with a vivid imagination perhaps but: Can you imagine what some Americans would be doing if 25 American states were partitioned off and handed over to a several million Muslims? My guess is that a few good Americans would be lobbing rockets over the new border within days in protest, they’d form the American Liberation Army (probably shortened to ALA) quicker than you could say apple pie and they’d have no shortage of willing volunteers. Then, when the Muslim settlers start pounding American cities to wheedle out the terrorists while accidentally slaughtering innocent civilians can you imagine anyone blaming the whole thing on Americans? |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Good post, Grinch, one that might open a few blind eyes. Have you noticed that it seems every time Hamas does stop firing rockets, as they did for several months during the last truce, Israel provokes them? I was reading an article that said Hamas is no real threat to Israel, but they are the stumbling block that prevents Israel from installing a puppet regime, one more willing to make concessions to Israel’s territorial aims. Therefore, every time Hamas does stop firing rockets and acts more like a legitimate political party, Israel provokes them with an “incursion”, killing and/or capturing Palestinians, which, of course, are war crimes under the Geneva Convention. (And that begs the question, why are we providing aid to war ciminals to the tune of over 8 billion a year?) Seems to me that’s pretty much what happened as a result of the November 4th incursion. Israel then upped the provocation by closing the borders and restricting delivery of humanitarian aid. Israel is now taking a final shot in this latest bloodbath, killing as many Palestinians as possible before Bush heads off to Preston Hollow and Obama clues Hamas in on what they have to do in order bring Israel to the negotiating table. I'll post a link to that article in Announcements and Links /pip/Forum3/HTML/004617.html |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: It was iffy, Jennifer. In the end, however, John's quotation and link were ostensibly offered in support of what he wrote. People had something to respond to. I'd really like it if our focus here remained writing, not just quoting other writers. If I want to know what Yahoo and CNN think, I'll go to Yahoo or CNN. quote: What you seem to be describing, Grinch, is called war. It sucks. Always has, always will. I, for one, would love to see a viable alternative actually put into play. I don't know of any, though. What I do know is that when two individuals start throwing punches it's not usually a good idea to grab the arms of just one of them. That influences the fight, sure, but it rarely stops it. |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I'm paying for my splurge in PiP before Christmas so this is going to be brief. This thread is following the usual routine followed by individuals, societies and nations in any conflict situation or commentary upon it: a rehearsal of blame and fault. Sure, in many cases it may be appropriate or even necessary to do this to reach some form of "justice". More often than not though, as the British learned in NI, in conflicts at a global or national level the issues are so complex and historically blurred that if there is even a shred of right on both sides then the exercise becomes a pointless waste of time. Hamas may well be the problem, in the same way as the IRA were the problem. The IRA blew up one of my office buildings in Docklands and I admit that being in the front line for once, my immediate reaction was to want to retaliate with fire. But adding fuel to an out of control blaze is not the way to dampen it, whatever the reason it started. Israel and America are, like the UK was for a long while, at worst maliciously scheming and at best ignorantly stupid. One expects a brash young executive (as I was) to act rashly when attacked, one hopes for better from a national government in the 21st C. Understanding that the key to this situation is to allay the underlying discontents that feed the power of people who simply want to kill, and then acting on that understanding in a sincere way, is the only way to resolve conflict like this. But then again perhaps the human cycle of misery cannot be broken: 1 Anger and the end of listening 2 Mounting mental and possibly physical aggression 3 Mental and physical weariness of conflict (and killing) 4 Resumption of listening, and compromise At a world level it would be nice if, one day, two or more world leaders were mature and brave enough to acknowledge that step 2 inevitably leads to 3 after a lot of innocent people have been hurt, and skip those steps. Meanwhile I have a horrible feeling that Ron was right about a Cuban missile and Bush's reaction. Hopefully Obama will have more wisdom and grace and will not behave like the testosterone charged teen that his predecessor sometimes was. And if not, then roll on the day when women rule the earth instead of beings who have muscles for brains and granite for feelings. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Sorry, Ron, but I have difficulty with mixed messages and need clarification on the posting links rule, guideline - whatever it’s called. What you seemed to be saying in #13 is that the thread would be split, discussion in this thread and all links in Announcements. Then in #17 you say John’s link wasn’t moved to Announcements because he prefaced the link (and 4 paragraphs of direct quotes from the article) with something he wrote, in essence, a brief, one paragraph summary of the article. So my question is, can I claim the same privilege, write a paragraph or so and then post in this thread quotes from and links to articles supporting what I've written? |
||
|
Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Ron, for what it's worth? I like the idea of a separate 'links' forum, as it has become tedious to read anything in this forum when we are bombarded with numerous links that are (MHO) rarely if ever objective, frequently stuffed with political propaganda, innuendo, and outright falsehoods. There are many fine news sources, but it seems the great majority prefer to swallow whole what a handful spew. I like to think the Pipsters are thinking, rational people, and can rise above that marker. Also, addressing a moonbeam reply: "Hopefully Obama will have more wisdom and grace and will not behave like the testosterone charged teen that his predecessor sometimes was. And if not, then roll on the day when women rule the earth instead of beings who have muscles for brains and granite for feelings." What makes you think that eliminating the male species from leadership roles would somehow bring peace? It's nonsense, and just another 'hate' concept that does nothing to foster understanding, mutual respect, goodwill, or conflict resolution. What is needed is for HUMANS in general to make major changes in how we behave, how we treat one another. Men and women must be accountable as equal partners in affecting global politics, economics, and social changes. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
“...it has become tedious to read anything in this forum when we are bombarded with numerous links that are (MHO) rarely if ever objective, frequently stuffed with political propaganda, innuendo, and outright falsehoods.” What a coincidence, I often feel the same way about many of the “opinions” posted in the discussion forum - that they’re “rarely if ever objective, frequently stuffed with political propaganda, innuendo, and outright falsehoods." |
||
|
Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Opinions are not facts. It would be great if one's opinions were based upon facts. Sadly, that is rarely the case. |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Calm down Midnitesun it wasn't in any way meant as a "hate concept". My comment about women ruling the world was in semi-joke, as I thought was obvious from my over-the-top description of male intelligence and emotions. However since you tell me that it is nonsense that eliminating male dominance of world leadership would promote world peace, and since you are so interested in facts, I would simply ask you to reflect on the fact that males instigate and carry out the vast majority of physically aggressive acts. While it does not follow inevitably from this that a reduction in, or elimination of, male leadership involvement would reduce world violence, it would imo be an experiment worth making. PS "male species" is a truly frightening concept! |
||
|
Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
LOL, of course, I meant the males of our species. I didn't read your comment tongue-in-cheek, sorry. Must be my Chemo treatment side-effects kicking in, I'm not absorbing "humor" today. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I just read this and it made me wonder about several things: “Iraq's Prime Minister Wednesday called on all Arab and Muslim countries to cut their ties with Israel, calling the Israeli military attacks on Gaza "a dreadful crime," according to a press statement. Nouri al-Maliki said that "we ask Arab countries and all Muslims to cancel their diplomatic relations and stop all contacts - private and public - with this murderous regime, which continues its painful aggression against peaceful, unarmed civilians." "There are disputes worldwide, but to reach this degree of crime, which kills children and women is unacceptable. The international silence is very disturbing to us, we hope the international community and the Security Council would take fast decisions, clear and explicit to stop the massacres against the Palestinian people," he added.” (I won’t post a link until I hear from Ron in response to my question in #19 as to whether or not it’s ok to do so.) First, it made me wonder if Israel had ever been part of the coalition of the willing that helped the US kill a hundred thousand so innocents Iraqis. I checked Wikipedia and they weren’t on the list. If that’s true, since we’re giving Israel 8 billion a year, and they’re one of the most highly militarized countries in the world, why weren’t they willing to help us by putting boots and equipment on the ground in Iraq? And finally, the obvious question, why is Maliki condemning Israel for killing innocents in Gaza and not the US for killing innocents in Iraq? Why is he demanding all Arab and Muslim countries cut ties with Israel while at the same time he continues to maintain diplomatic relations with the US, a country that’s killed far more innocents (his own people, for heaven’s sake, and mostly women and children!) than the Israelis have in Gaza? |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
I agree with Ron, that "collateral damage" is simply the result of war, period. That doesn't speak anything of the legitimacy of either cause, Zionism or Palestianism. "Palestinian" groups have been attacking Israel ever since I can remember. And I am of the opinion that the whole Palestinian nationalism movement is a ruse, and much more ephemeral than the real semetic culture and history of Israel. Palestine has never been a sovereign state of any kind, but a mish-mash of arabic/semitic peoples ruled by various empires through the centuries. That doesn't mean that I am pro-war, or that I don't find all of this completely absurd and heartbreaking. I do. Midnitesun is right that only the transcendent can help us rid ourselves of such conflict (though we might disagree on the nature of that transcendence, I think we're trying to describe a somewhat common goal) Stephen |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
"since we’re giving Israel 8 billion a year, and they’re one of the most highly militarized countries in the world, why weren’t they willing to help us by putting boots and equipment on the ground in Iraq?" Take some time to think about that . . . |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I already have, but the conclusion I came to only adds fuel to the fire. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Collateral damage or direct targets as in Israel's bombing of a school sheltering families forced out of their homes by the ground assault? 688 Palestinians killed and Israel claims 130 of them were militants. Someone needs a new scope on their killing machine. |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
The building you refer to was NOT even a Palestinian building at all! It was a UN relief center/school that HAMAS took over, just like they have several other UN sites, totally illegally. HAMAS then shot RPG's at armored vehicles from this center WITH people in it, and from the roof they shot anti-aircraft weaponry at Israeli airplanes. Israel saw exactly where the anti-aircraft fire was coming from and bombed it. What you fail to see is that HAMAS MADE HOSTAGES out of several hundred people BEFORE they shot at the Israeli plane, when they took control of a building that wasn't theirs to take control of. Terrorist organizations KNOW that most civilized people won't fire back at them if they setup in mosques or aid centers. The exception to that equation is, of course, Israel. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Ok, I'll bite, how about posting something to back up your statements from credible sources. In case you're not aware, we can't post links in this thread, but you can post them here: /pip/Forum3/HTML/004617.html |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
Supporting Link The point, Jennifer, is that HAMAS is a nasty nasty terrorist organization with weaponry and financial support from Iran. HAMAS has taken over the Gaza strip in every role including government. Hamas did this almost immediately after Israel gave Gaza back to Palestine. The NEXT DAY HAMAS started shelling Israel from their new closer position to Israel. This was the ONLY stipulation that Israel made to Palestine: don't shell us from there, and we'll give back Gaza. That was one heck of a concession, as most people thought Israel would NEVER give Gaza back since the Muslims have broken almost all their promises to Israel negotiated during peace treaties. Hamas is USING Palestine as a terrorist pawn right now, to garner Muslim and world opinion against Israel. They are literally poking Israel in the eye with a stick, day after day, and Israel says: day after day, do it again, and we'll retaliate. Eventually they do. No suprise. If you pull a weapon on a cop, don't be shocked when they pull out a GUN and shoot you in self-defense. It may be stronger than a knive, but you should'be be threatening cops with a weapon. Let's look at something else, miiltarily: Israel knows that you can't just 'bomb' terrorists away. They hide in residential areas, which is unavoidable since they could never win a battle in open field. They fight where they live, and they know EXACTLY what targets are OFF-LIMITS due to humanitarian reasons. Most military organizations even publish a paper list of them. Well, guess what? These are the safe havens where they can move into and out of without fear of retaliation. The building blew up, right down to the last brick, further adding speculation that explosives and arms were accumulated there. [This message has been edited by Ron (01-07-2009 04:46 PM).] |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Sure, Jennifer, if you want to offer your opinion and then support it with quotations and links, that's fine. That's not the same thing as bombarding us with someone else's opinions. When you post only a quotation and link, to whom do we respond? You? They're not your words. Them? They're not listening. quote: Unfortunately, Moonbeam, sometimes the underlying discontents can't be allayed. When two women want the same child, cutting it in half rarely solves the problems and sadly we don't seem to have any leaders today with the wisdom of Solomon. quote: We didn't invite Iran to join the invasion of their neighbor, either, Jennifer. Adding Israel to the coalition would have escalated a small war into World War Three, as every country in the Middle East rushed to Iraq's defense. And it wouldn't be because they like Saddam, either. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." quote: Or, for that matter, Hamas for killing innocents in Israel? |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
Ron, I agree with you about blind links. Unless I miss my guess, this current board is about 'personal opinion' and not some bloggist's or radio/tv personality's op. I think it also helps to point out that there is a distinction between A) a hard news link B) blogger post or blind video link (hey, an interesting aside (or not): it used to be a video was definitive proof that something happened. Have y'all noticed that we can no longer put total faith in video, now that they can be altered and edited with ease? It seems to me that printed detail of a news item is more 'credible' than a U-Tube video, nowadays. ) Used to be a picture was worth a 1000 words. Now its only worth a dozen words. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Thanks for the clarification on the posting rules, Ron. On investigating further, I found sources that believe Israel was present in Iraq carrying out covert operations. Not sure at this point how credible that information really is. Here's a link to one source on the topic and it does list track backs to support the claim: http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache:jsDnDzrC9RoJ:www.antiwar.com/orig/elmer.php%3Farticleid%3D2959 Jeff your supporting link goes to a post by blogger Bill Roggio. Sorry, but a blog post isn’t what I or most would call a credible source. Did you post the wrong link or something? Israel has bombed private homes, apartment buildings, schools, medical centers, ambulances, UN facilities, police stations, power stations, etc., etc. and withheld food and medical supplies as a form of collective punishment. Seems to me they haven’t a clue what’s off limits according to international law or for humanitarian reasons. Those are the actions of terrorists, and are as despicable as Hasmas’s firing of rockets, don’t you think? [This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (01-07-2009 07:17 PM).] |
||
|
Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Can I be a little shocked if he also shoots the 25 school kids stood next to Jennifer? It may seem illogical but I just can’t imagine walking around the day after that happened and declaring that it wasn’t the cops fault - that Jen was totally to blame for pulling a knife in the middle of a group of school kids. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
It's ok, Grinch, I always get blamed for everything. The population per square mile in Gaza is something like 10,000+. Kind of hard not to be shoulder to shoulder with someone when you're packed that close together. Anyway, I really don't believe it's about the rockets at all. Hamas did stop firing for several months and Israel broke that fragile truce with an incursion and never kept their part of the truce re opening the borders. They placed a stranglehold on Gaza causing untold misery and it resulted in exactly what I believe they were hoping for all along - an excuse to invade and terrorize the people of Gaza hoping they'd give up support of Hamas. And, of course, that falls right in line with the Bush administration goals. For decades, the US, in it’s attempt to install puppet regimes in the ME, has indeed had a part in putting terrorists into power, Bin Laden, Saddam, etc. Here's an interesting article I just came across, only skimmed it quickly once but it does give a lot of information on how Hamas came into power: http://www.alternet.org/audits/116855/america's_hidden_role_in_hamas's_rise_to_power/]htt p://www.alternet.org/audits/116855/america's_hidden_role_in_hamas's_rise_to_power/]http://www.alternet.org/audits/116855/america's_hidden_role_in_hamas's_rise_to_power/ [This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (01-07-2009 08:18 PM).] |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. How are all these words relevant to the world of constant threat of death in Israel that Kaci witnessed with her own eyes? . |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
They're relevant because they show Israel has pretty much made its own bed. |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: While I hate to pick on Jennifer with this outrageous analogy, it would be much closer to reality if we had Jennifer shooting the police officer's kids . . . while hiding behind 25 of her own family members. No, I don't think the cop should fire indiscriminately. But in his place, I honestly don't think I would just stand there and hope Jen runs out of bullets, either. quote: Let's say, for a moment, that's accurate, Jennifer. Are you suggesting that someone is justified in bombing civilians because they were provoked into doing it? Isn't that exactly what you've been arguing against? quote: So, why, Jennifer are you only coming down so hard on one side when you recognize that both are doing some very, very bad things? Why should we stop one side and not both? |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
1. No, I'm not saying it's justified, just that it was to be expected. That goes to the definition of provocation. 2. Because I believe no one else on this site would take the position I have and because arguments expressing both sides of a issue should be presented. What happens in the ME does affect us. We should be informed and prepared to voice our opinion based on facts, not hysterical, emotional knee jerk reactions. Of course both sides should stop, please don't imply I feel differently when I don't. |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: The blog post was reporting an Associated Press news item, Jennifer. Do a Google search for Associated Press confirm UN school and you'll find tons of corroboration. Or just follow the link in the blog to what I assume is an AP link (it's overloaded with traffic right now, it seems). |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I did do a search and found nothing from AP with that headline, just more blog posts. I'd appreciate having a direct link if you know of one. The link in the blog goes to JP, and a statement made by an Israeli official. As a matter of fact, just got a blurb stating that Israel has withdrawn its claim that militants fired from the school. When, and if, I get something from a credible source, I'll post the link. |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
I'd like to point out some things here: Ron, you are exactly right: The standard Liberal argument goes something like this: Palestine may be full of terrorists, but Israel MADE them that way. Israel is as much of a terrorist as HAMAS. Palestine, in order to defend ITSELF, must fire rockets into populated Israel areas. They are justified in using 'uneven' force because they are smaller and the 'aggrieved.' Here's the thing: if you believe all the above, you will NEVER believe in both sides being responsible for this endless conflict. Two other things, while I'm at it: Israel is facing a national election. Currently at the heart of the matter is the giving away of the Gaza Strip as appeasement. The Liberals in Israel pushed for this very strongly. Now, in order to be re-elected, they are going to have to save face, and have escalated this tit-for-tat with rat-a-tat-tat. Because, in the eyes of Israeli citizens, the give-a-way was a complete failure for peace, Conservatives and Hawks have the inside edge on winning. If you look back at Israeli election history, in almost every case, there was a war escalation prior to the election. Their soverignity is a major big deal to them, and they often demonstrate 'flexing muscles' as a way of not appearing weak to the citizenry. Israel's second Incursion Into Lebanon was also an eye-opener for them. While justified in quashing Lebananese guerillas, they overextended and pushed too far into the city. They had major problems with the insertion, and backed out quickly when public opinion back home got too hot. The Israeli military learned that an incursion into the Gaza Strip could be fraught with similar situations that the US faced when taking a city, 24 hours passes, terrorists move back in, US retakes, terrorists move out, etc. There virtually is NO WAY to secure an area unless you are willing to permanently occupy it. So......what's a poor boy to do? It's Lose/Lose. This is the hazard of 'Urban Warfare.' Huge body counts, lots of innocents slain. Arguably, the Israel military is the best in the world in fighting city guerillas/terrorists. They are struggling to not appear the bully here, and perhaps are losing that argument. My point is that every country has agreed after WWII not to use cities as shields, but terrorists do it time after time. The media sees the Palestinians as the 'aggrieved' and will seldom, if ever ,report on the terrorist activities against Israel. Hamas is breaking every Convention of War there is (except for chemical & nuclear warfare) and there is no denying that the International community doesn't say much simply because they don't want to be dragged into the Middle East mess. (exceptions to this are China, Central America and other Muslim countries, which will openly codemn Israel for using too much toilet paper and causing a shortage in Palestine.) |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
AP Story (from Google cache, so it won't be there forever) http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:7JJd5CtPUcYJ:hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS%3FSITE%3DAP%26SECTION%3DHOME%26TEMPLATE%3DDEFAULT%26CTIME%3D2009-01-06-19-17 -06+Associated+Press+%22two+residents%22+UN+school+site:hosted.ap.org&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us The link is loooooong, and will probably break in our software. Copy & paste should work to put it back together. quote: Exactly, Jennifer. I think that's what most of us have been saying all along. What is happening in the Middle East can't be justified, but it's pretty much what was to be expected. Each side is (and has been for a very long time) provoking the other. They don't much like each other, and like the two women in 1 Kings, they both want the same thing. Even Solomon, I fear, would be hard pressed to resolve their issues without bloodshed. We're seeing the result of decades of hate and frustration, and I honestly don't see how trying to demonize one side over the other is going to help lessen that hatred. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
From JP re the school massacre http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231167303802&pagename=JPost%2FJPArti cle%2FShowFull http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231167303802&pagename=JPost%2FJPArti cle%2FShowFull I quite agree with your last statement, so perhaps those on this site who demonize Muslims, Palestinians, Iraqis, Obama and my special friend, Jimmy Carter, etc., should give it a rest. Speaking of which, I haven't slept in nearly a day. Time for a nod off. Nice chatting with you, Ron. Oops, nearly forgot, thanks for the link, I'll check it out. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
A pretty good example of spinning fact into inflammatory headline. AP is reporting what two anonymous sources said, not what AP believes or observed. Here are the facts as reported in the AP article: “Two residents of the area who spoke with The Associated Press by telephone said they saw a small group of militants firing mortar rounds from a street near the school, where 350 people had gathered to get away from the shelling. They spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal.” And here is the inflammatory, misleading headline posted in the Standard: AP: Hamas was Firing from UN School Hit by the IDF |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
'Fear of reprisal' is one of the CHIEF reasons Vietnam became such a fiasco. They couldn't get any current actionable intelligence out of the villagers because the VC would come in and gut them later if they did. Same thing in Korea, same thing in Iraq, and same thing in Palestine. You are also starting to see, perhaps, WHY any Urban War news is always incomplete. Chances are slim that ANY AP/UPI/Reuters newsmen are EXACTLY in that part of the city when conflict breaks out. Easy to watch a battle from a hill, but impossible to cover as news when inside the city. Plus: Israel is banning coverage for the excellent reason that current reporting will show the enemy where Israel exactly is in the city, and setup ambushes. Live War news is an extremely dangerous thing (remember the Geraldo Iraqi troop position debacle?) The TV footage you see, now, is Arab film footage, designed specifically to show Israel in a bad light, only show Muslim casualties, never show the terrorists firing upon Israel, etc. They did not agree to the Israel TV ban, so they are using the TV coverage to their political and military advantage. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Didn't Jimmy Carter go over there a few months ago to straighten things out? Guess maybe that didn't work out so well.... |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I wish there was more information available. SOP would suggest that was two independent news sources, each telling the same story. That doesn't guarantee the truth, but it does lend it greater weight. It would be nice to know for sure. Truth is, though, if the AP reported that Britney shaved her head, I probably wouldn't have any reason to doubt the story's validity. She has a history, ya know? Hamas has a history, too. Lacking evidence to the contrary, the AP story sounds credible to me. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Sounds creditable to me, too, especially with Hamas' record of hiding behind women and children. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
So it’s ok to for Balladeer to blow up your house, Ron, if someone on “a street near” your house shoots first? Also, it’s interesting to note that you both consider two anonymous sources more credible than the identified sources in the JP article, and neither of you, or so it appears, bothered to check other sources for more information before pronouncing judgment. You heard what you wanted to hear and stopped there. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
....and you, Jennifer, I suppose, checked all sources on both sides before pronouncing yours? I find that unlikely. Hamas has a record of sending in suicide bombers to blow up civilians, women and children. They also have a record of setting up shop in synagogues, schools and densely populated residential areas. Where is your outrage over that? How many suicide bombers has Israel sent over there? I'll save you the trouble of looking it up.....zero. You may champion the murderers if you like and set up all sorts of scenarios where Israel masterminds the Hamas attacks for an excuse to attack them if you like but it is flimsy, at best. perhaps a little more research on the other side may shed more light on your perspective....or not. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I think, Balladeer, you should try reading more carefully instead of making false assumptions. I haven't taken a position on the school massacre issue, I merely pointed out the headline on the Standard Blog doesn't reflect what the AP actually said. Not championing anyone, there are murderers on both sides. Unfortunately you and many others don't seem to recognize that fact. |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Okay, Jennifer? Certainly not. I think the words you used were "just that it was to be expected?" |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
So what you saying is the Israelis are doing exactly what Palestinian militants did. Doesn't that make them terrorists, too?But,of course on a far grander scale, they've killed 700 and wounded over 3000 in a matter of days. I was just reading that for the last year, up until the Israelis started this slaughter, no Israeli, not even one, had been killed by rocket fire. |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I don't know, Jennifer. Do you think our boys in Afghanistan are terrorists? I think terrorist is one of those loaded words with no clear definition, used as much to promote hate as to describe something. I don't know if the Palestinians consider themselves terrorists? Even though, in our world, suicide bomber and terrorist are almost synonymous. I doubt the Israelis would characterize themselves as terrorist, and I'm pretty sure our own troops sent to Afghanistan in retaliation for 911 don't think of themselves as terrorists. I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. I can tell you there are a lot of people in the Middle East (including Hamas) who are convinced that you and I are terrorists . . . because we indirectly condone and directly pay for the guns and men used to kill other people. They don't make any distinction at all between the person pulling the trigger and those enabling the person. To them, innocent civilian is an oxymoron. Do you think of yourself as a terrorist, Jennifer? I don't, either. But they do. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I think you've gone off track. Not sure if that was intentional or accidental, but I am sure you know the definition of terrorism as well as I do. If you really want to discuss US presence in Afghanistan or Iraq, fine with me, but in another thread. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
As you may know, I have a special place in my heart for Jimmy Carter. To me he is a man who tru;y walks the walk the way a real Christian should. I also enjoy many of his poems. He sees need and suffering and does what he can to relieve it. His foundation, The Carter Center, sends representatives around the world on missions to help restore peace, human rights and alleviate suffering. Here is what he has to say about the current situation in Gaza. Balladeer might find it interesting as President Carter mentions specifics about his trip to Israel last April. An Unnecessary War http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/08-11 |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Although I consider him to be possibly the worst president the country has had, I applaud him for bring a great humanitarian and basically a good, kind, decent person. We have no disagreement there. After visiting Sderot last April and seeing the serious psychological damage caused by the rockets that had fallen in that area, my wife, Rosalynn, and I declared their launching from Gaza to be inexcusable and an act of terrorism. Jimmy called it as it is...an inexcusable act of terrorism. No talk of how Israel manipulated Hamas into attacking them, as you have, jennifer. Although casualties were rare (three deaths in seven years), the town was traumatized by the unpredictable explosions. Since, in your earlier post, you claim there have been zero fatalities, one of you must be mistaken (unless you want to go with a "So 3 deaths...no big deal.) Would you have liked to live in that town, miss? Israel does something that the United States doesn't do. They fight wars to win them. The last time we did that, Hiroshima went up in smoke. Was it a tragic loss of life? Most certainly. Are the innocent Palestinians a tragic loss of life? For sure. Are the hundreds of Jewish innocents blown up by suicide bombers (which you failed to count in your "zero body count" totals) tragic? No doubt there. The Jimmy Carter link ends with his belief about peace between Hamas and Israel. There will never be peace between them and Israel knows it. When someone declares they will not rest until you are dead, you may rest assured there will be no other solution than them or you. Israel knows that and is acting accordingly. Hamas will never stop attacking because that is their nature and they have declared so, openly. Innocents on both sides will suffer because that is the tragic repurcussion of war. Hamas could stop all of it by simply stopping. They won't. Gaza will not become a Korea or Viet Nam. Israel will do what it takes to achieve their objective. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
You've misquoted me and totally ignored one of the major provocations, Israel's restriction on the delivery of food into Gaza. Just to refresh your memory: "...1.5 million inhabitants of Gaza were being starved, as the U.N. special rapporteur on the right to food had found that acute malnutrition in Gaza was on the same scale as in the poorest nations in the southern Sahara, with more than half of all Palestinian families eating only one meal a day." "rocket firing was soon stopped and there was an increase in supplies of food, water, medicine and fuel. Yet the increase was to an average of about 20 percent of normal levels." |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I misquoted you...where? |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Jennifer M quote: Jimmy Carter (via Balladeer) quote: Balladeer quote: I don't see that there is a conflict between Jenn's statement and Carter's. Perhaps, Master Balladeer, you'd like to review your comment. quote: This is the sort of woeful thinking that keeps conflicts alive for decades and even centuries. It's not only misguided and lazy, but patently wrong. You talk as if the stupendous might of the Israeli war machine is going to crush Hamas to dust - to extinguish it. I don't think so. As V said to Creedy: "Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy, and ideas are bulletproof." |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
This is the sort of woeful thinking that keeps conflicts alive for decades and even centuries. No, what keeps conflicts alive for decades and centuries is the fact that no one fights to the finish. Yes, my money would be on Israel. One only has to look at the 6-Day war where Israel was attacked by multiple countries and polished them off in less than a week. Woeful, misguided, lazy and wrong...why are you going out of your way to be so nice? |
||
|
Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: And presumably they all lived happily ever after. Then again maybe not. |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
I have a challenge, a serious one: name one promise or concession that the Arab community has kept their word on during peace negotiations with Israel. Just one. Israel gave them back the Gaza Strip, which is like the United States giving Texas back to Mexico. Israel really just wants to 'be left alone.' That's their whole foreign policy except with England, Australia and the United States. Leave us alone, but if you threaten us, we'll fight back. So how come it's ALWAYS what ISRAEL has to give up to get peace? I've been researching the Middle East for about 15 years now, and i am STILL looking for any tangible concessions or promises the Arab countries have kept in regards to Israel. [This message has been edited by threadbear (01-08-2009 09:41 PM).] |
||
|
Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Odd use of the word “gave”. “I stole your lawn mower last fall but in the interests of neighbourly trust and harmony I’m willing to give it back if I get to keep the hedge trimmer I took at the same time”. Maybe that’s what they mean when they say “a little give and take”. |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
Well, not exactly, Grinch. 5 Arab nations bullied together to kick Israel's butt, and they themselves got their arse handed to them. As punishment for their unprovoked attempt to annihilate Israel, Israel kept the furthermost part of their defense to the West: the Gaza Strip. Gaza is of tremendous strategic importance because of his geographical location WITHIN Israel itself. They already have to defend 360degrees around them, and now they have to defend within their own borders. I have alot of respect for Israeli Jews: their resilience and bravery should be admired: not condemned. My sympathies lie with the underdog here. They're surrounded like an island by billions of screaming Muslims. That ain't pretty. Oh, and gee, can you please give us back the land we lost when we gang-jumped you? |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Jeff, since you’ve done a lot of research on ME issues, perhaps you could answer a couple of questions for me. What’s the current status of negotiations between Israel and BG for the purchase of natural gas from the BG's offshore concession in Gaza and what is the status of plans for an underwater pipeline that would transport gas from the Gaza Marine Field to an Israeli refinery at Ashkelon? |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
I'm not up on Israel's micro-economics. I follow the historic and the political. It's basically impossible to follow another country's economic ins/outs if you don't live there, so I don't even try. All I know is Ashkelon is a receiving city in northern Israel for either gas or power, and could be the link for Egypt to provide power or have gas sent back to them. ***www.middleeastprogress.org/2007/10/innovative-energy-approaches-could-aid-regional-stability/***** That website is pretty decent at detail, but frankly, i couldn't keep all that data in my head if i had to. There's been rumors for years that Israel is secretly sitting on either a gas or oil reserve or both. Here is something I ran across from in 2006: Oil Struck At Dead Sea September 27th 2006. Oil spurted Monday at a depth of about 1,800 meters during drilling near the Dead Sea. The drilling was planned only to reach 2,000 meters. Drilling partners, Ginko Oil Exploration and Lapidot are expected to carry out a series of tests in the coming days in order to estimate the quantity of oil found in the drilling, and its value. According to geologist Gidon Gab-Am, there is an estimated two strata of oil, one of which contains about 5.5 million barrels of oil, and the other about one million barrels. As per today's crude oil prices, this quantity is worth between USD 300-350 million. I'm sure your question has a purpose, now that i've revealed my ignorance, what is the question? My guess is that you think Israel spies a cash-cow of gas (pardon the pun) and wants the profits for themselves, as in: give us Gaza back. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Thanks for the info, Jeff, I really appreciate it. And here's a link to an article you might find interesting. Seems that one of the first things Hamas did after getting elected was to declare that the natural gas deal would have to be renegotiated. Does tend to make one wonder about Israel's motives. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gas_deal_coming_polls_behind_military_operations_in_Gaza/articleshow/3935036.cms [This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (01-09-2009 07:44 AM).] |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
The intentional slaughter of civilians in Gaza continues while the US prepares to send Israel more military supplies just as it did at the close of the Israeli war with Lebanon when it sent Israel shipments of cluster bombs for a final bloody assault. Israel Shelled Gaza House Crowded With Civilians: Witnesses The UN report said that "according to several testimonies, on 4 January Israeli foot soldiers evacuated approximately 110 Palestinians into a single-residence house in Zeitun (half of whom were children) warning them to stay indoors. Twenty-four hours later, Israeli forces shelled the home repeatedly, killing approximately 30." http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ghh3i-gp2cb36Mu7jxu6-xfBtnHw “Israel’s “moral high ground” in Gaza, a growing pile of small bones in a graveyard." - Kucinich |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Interesting article, Jennifer, I have to say I find it impossible to believe. It simply doesn't make any sense, as a deliberate act. Why would they load the people into houses and then bomb the house? Makes no sense at all when you think about it. It would not be hard to get "several testimonies" stating that Jews eat barbequed Muslims for breakfast. It could also be true, a mistake in communications between the ground forces and the air force...which wouldn't make it any less horrific but would not be what the article may be suggesting - that they corraled civilians into a house for the purpose of bombing the house. Now, if Hamas bombed the house, killing their own, for the purpose of blaming Israel, I would find that to be more plausible because that is their documented style. It is not Israel's. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I found it difficult to believe Israel would use phosphorous shells and fire more than a million cluster bomblets on the civilian population of Lebanon until I read the testimony of an IDF commander who later referred to those acts as “ insane and monstrous”. Monstrous and insane also fits the bill in this case and instances where it’s already been documented Israel bombed schools, medical centers, medical convoys, aid workers, supply convoys, power plants, etc., etc., denied aid workers access to the wounded and used Palestinians as human shields when troops took over residences in Gaza. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwd7i5JRRfE “Israel’s “moral high ground” in Gaza, a growing pile of small bones in a graveyard.”-Kucinich |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “It would not be hard to get "several testimonies" stating that Jews eat barbequed Muslims for breakfast.” I think it might be in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion . . . Also don’t forget: “The anti-Semitic blood libel has appeared throughout the Muslim and Arab world with gruesome accounts and depictions of Jews murdering non-Jews and using their blood for ritual purposes. An episode of the anti-Semitic television series, Ash Shatat (“The Diaspora”), shows a heinous dramatization of the killing of a Christian child by a rabbi and the use of his blood to make matzah. The program is a Syrian production and was first aired in October and November 2003 by the Lebanon-based satellite television network Al-Manar, which is owned by the terrorist organization Hezbollah. Al-Manar is widely available to viewers across the Muslim and Arab world and around the world. The closing credits of the programs give special thanks to various government ministries in Syria, including the security ministry, the culture ministry, the Damascus Police Command and the Department of Antiquities and Museums. The Saudi government daily, Ar-Riyadh, ran a two-part article entitled “The Jewish Holiday of Purim” by Dr. Umayma Ahmad Al-Jalahma of King Faysal University in Al-Dammam, on March 10 and March 12, 2002 which claimed that Jews murder Muslim or Christian children and drain their blood to make pastries for the holiday of Purim." http://www.adl.org/NR/exeres/E38717B3-A4A6-4D8A-8568-908A1 90645FD,213018C9-567C-418C-BDEA-1CBDA8F58810,frameless.htm I've found this Purim recipe repeated elsewhere. . |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Ahh yes, that would be the end all conflict with the "nuke, or as you so anaesthetically put it "polish off", any part of the world that doesn't agree with us" syndrome. If I didn't know you were joking and simply trying to pull chains, I'd be horrified. As it is, it was a joke in rather bad taste given what this thread is about. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
John, as despicable as the article you quoted is, it pales in comparison to what’s been happening in Gaza since December 27th. The blood of Palestinian children is running in the streets, there’s no safe haven for them anywhere in Gaza. I don’t know whether you’ve seen the videos and stills, but the devastation is so horrific, nothing can ever justify it. Israel has now started targeting journalists and blowing up tv stations, a contravention of international law, to prevent the world from seeing the bloodbath stemming from the ground invasion. [This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (01-11-2009 10:10 PM).] |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Guess you were right, Jeff, you just can’t trust all videos reflect the truth. IDF officers admit there was no gunfire from the Gaza school they shelled killing 40+ civilians, many of the children, and that the images they tried to pass off as being from that event were actually taken in 2007 when the school was abandoned. So explain to me again, why are we funding and supplying liars and war criminals? http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054009.html |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "Israel has now started targeting journalists and blowing up tv stations" To what purpose, or are they just idiots who want to show the world how really bad they are? . |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
"Israel has now started targeting journalists and blowing up tv stations" What purpose? Presumably they are just idiots who want to hide from the world how really bad they are? |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Either way, they're not that stupid. . |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Even though Israel knew the station's GPS coordinates and had given assurances it would not be attacked, Israeli troops hit the building with rocket fire, wounding two, and knocking out satellite transmission equipment on the roof. Very much like the school massacre, they knew the coordinates but fired on it anyway. There is no safe place in Gaza, it's a free fire zone. |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: I find it puzzling that food can't get in, but there's no end to the importation of rockets. Seems like the Arab nations aren't really concerned about the people, else they would be importing humanitarian aid. They thrive on the appearance of victimization by Israel, the proof being weaponry gets in in great quantities, but not food. Stephen |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Food and humanitarian aid was indeed available, and in vast quantities, but delivery into Gaza was blocked by Israel. During the time of the most recent truce, when there were no rockets being fired, Israel allowed only 15% - 25% of regular food and humanitarian aid deliveries through the gates. Part of that truce agreement was that Israel would restore deliveries to normal levels. They didn't. They failed to live up to their part of the truce agreement. Now there are an estimated 750,000 Palestinians without running water let alone food. Being a nurse, I'm sure you're more than aware of how long a person can live without water and the consequences of drinking contaminated water. Also, the sanitation facilities are failing due to the lack of electricity. Israel is creating a breeding ground for disease and epidemics that will kill many who manage to survive the slaughter, children and the infirm first. "The United Nations suspended aid on Friday after a clearly designated UN truck carrying aid was shelled, despite it having received a clearance from the Israeli army. The driver of the truck was killed in the attack while another UN worker was wounded. The incident was one of a number of attacks by the Israeli army involving UN personnel and facilities that have occurred since the current offensive began." http://story.irishsun.com/index.php/ct/9/cid/2411cd3571b4f088/id/451846/cs/1/ [This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (01-09-2009 11:12 PM).] |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Jennifer, It is a sad plight. I'm just noting that the Arab nations smuggle much weaponry through the tunnels under the Gaza-Egyptian border, but no humanitarian aid? Stephen |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Think about it, there are 1.5 million people in Gaza. Most of them aren't militants. Food and aid was being smuggled in through the tunnels, but not nearly enough to meet the need caused by the blockade. It's pretty hard to feed 1.5 million people when you have to carry sacks of rice and grain on your back. Israel has blown up those tunnels now and restricted aid deliveries to three hours a day. Hungry people have become starving people and most of the world turns a blind eye to what can justifiably be called, collective punishment. I saw a someone in the Tel Aviv protest march carrying a sign that said something like, the way to eliminate Hamas is to give the people of Gaza hope. There is no hope when you're imprisoned and being slowly starved to death. |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
Naw.....in military parliance it's called: cutting off supply lines and it's been done for thousands of years by every army. It's the most common military strategy out there. You can exclaim: humanitarian this and that, but it's a war strategy that focuses on ending things quicker rather than longer. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
So starving civilians is ok with you, Jeff? This is not a case of cutting off military supply lines, Israel is denying the whole population of Gaza the basic necessities of life. |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "So starving civilians is ok with you, Jeff?" Keep in mind these civilians voted Hamas, (an organization that has but one purpose; the annihilation of Israel), into power. What’s happening on the East Bank; nothing. . |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
Jennifer, oh heck now, human suffering on any level is NEVER ok with me. I HATE war. I'm a peacenik at heart. I'll proudly wear a peace symbol, and do on shirts occasionally. IF peace is possible ... that's the big question. I hate war, ... but I understand it. What's distasteful is an 'unnecessary war.' Yeah, before you say it: Iraq, i.e. Surely, if the United States has learned anything from the Bush years, we have learned what a 'rush to judgement' can lead to. I believe that's the big lesson of the Bush years. Learn it, memorize it, live it. One thing is for sure: Hamas shouldn't have started a war if they weren't prepared for it, and obviously they weren't. They're paying a horrible price for not planning ahead. Hamas is firing guns blindly at the Israeli's and then asking, later, too late, (something like this): "Hey, Ahmed, what will we do if it actually HITS somebody?" "We'll worry about that later, Abdullah. Keep firing!" Here's the real option, Jennifer: either let the supply line cutting have its effect, OR watch the war triple in length. In terms of human suffering which is better? To be honest, I'm not sure myself. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
The US voted in Bush for a second term after he started a war that killed 100,000 or so people in Iraq, so that gives the Iraqis the right to blow up civilians in the US? There was no freedom for the people of Gaza before Hamas, their every move was restricted and controlled by the Israelis. Hamas offered them hope, and actually managed to deliver on it in the form of public services, until the Israelis, backed by the US, decided the way to eliminate Hamas was to turn the population of Gaza against Hamas by tightening the blockade. That's collective punishment, it's illegal under international law, and a war crime when you're the occupying power as Isreal undeniably is. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Here's a clue, Hamas didn't start this war. By their own admission, Israel started planning this war six months ago during the time of the truce and after Hamas had stopped firing rockets. Once again, what's being cut isn't military supply lines, it's food and humanitarian aid to the civilian population, and that's a war crime. |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
Look...it's all based on military strategy, and Israel probably has the best strategic commanders around. As you can imagine, they are constantly challenged, and up to date. I told you i studied Israel, and one thing they do effectively is, in order, 1a) strike early, strike hard before enemy gets setup (some call them 'pre-emp' strikes 1) tear up the opposition with an airstrike 2) make them fight on as many sides as possible, creating a box. 3) cut off re-supply lines 4) cut off retreat lines 5) systematically root out all insurgents sector by sector, then securing the sector. 6) gradually, very gradually, back out while leaving behind 'protectors' in the old war zones. They're not like SS, but they do check random credentials constantly, and within seconds of finding insurgent, a half of a dozen vehicles will converge to diffuse the situation. 7) and lastly, they DO prosecute their captives as 'terrorists' and not 'criminals' What they are doing is NO war crime. Geez. ONLY if Israel refuses to medically treat their HOSTAGES only, would that be a war crime. They don't control the city- that's ludicrous, Jennifer, to even suggest that during conflict, they are responsible for getting aid to their enemies on the OTHER side of the lines. --------------------------------------------------- Now that you bring it up, let's look at the list of what constitutes a war crime. The term is bandied about haphazardly, and I think it's time we review exactly what is involved in a War Crime: War crimes are defined in the statute that established the International Criminal Court, which includes: Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, such as: Willful killing, or causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health Torture or inhumane treatment Unlawful wanton destruction or appropriation of property Forcing a prisoner of war to serve in the forces of a hostile power Depriving a prisoner of war of a fair trial Unlawful deportation, confinement or transfer Taking hostages The following acts as part of an international conflict: Directing attacks against civilians Directing attacks against humanitarian workers or UN peacekeepers Killing a surrendered combatant Misusing a flag of truce Settlement of occupied territory Deportation of inhabitants of occupied territory Using poison weapons Using civilians as shields Using child soldiers [This message has been edited by threadbear (01-10-2009 04:47 PM).] |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
You forgot a few things on your first list like blowing up safe houses, medical centers, aid lorries, schools, paramedics, children, women, power plants and other assorted war crimes. Good night, Jeff, wouldn't want to take you away from polishing up your peace sign. PS - I remember Lebanon |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
Well, have a good evening, Jennifer. I'll be vegging out on football tomorrow. Oh, by the way, my better half has started calling Barrack H. Obama: Bahama! LOL love it! (hehe, sorry...had to share that with ya!) |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Stephen and Huan, you seem to have problem distinguishing the Palestinian Stephen and Huans from Hamas. The "Arab nations" didn't choose to smuggle arms in preference to food, Hamas did. Using wide all-embracing statements like "Arab nations" is precisely the sort of rhetoric that feeds hate and negative nationalistic thinking at the expense of the love that an individual ordinary Israeli feels for an individual ordinary Palestinian. And yes, Hamas (a killing organisation) was voted in by ordinary people. Sections of America and the western media would love to portray that as the evil Arab Nations voting in an appropriately evil government. If you have the sense to dismiss that as bullshit, maybe you then have the sense to go on and ask what the real reasons were. |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “There was no freedom for the people of Gaza before Hamas” Now that’s an interesting idea compared to: ““We hope that Hamas keeps on inventing new ways of killing the people so the rest of the world knows the truth and the reality of Hamas and how vicious they really are," said Rami, 35.”” Fatah, Hamas Battle in Gaza Threatens Government All Things Considered, June 12, 2007 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10988462 "and ask what the real reasons were" Maybe it was: ""the reality of Hamas and how vicious they really are,"" . |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Moonbeam, I'm not also so dense as to not know that many of the more "legitimate" governments of the middle east support terror against Israel. Israel is not a welcome nation in the MidEast, period. It may be rhetorical, but it happens to be true. And I don't think bombing schools et al (as horrible as that situation is) violates the Geneva Convention if military aggression is being executed from these places. As someone else pointed out, such is perfectly in line with the approach of Hamas / Hezbolah. Stephen |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
It just astounds me how many folks on the Left still stick up for the Palestinians. [This message has been edited by threadbear (01-10-2009 09:15 PM).] |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
that many of the more "legitimate" governments of the middle east support terror against Israel. Israel is not a welcome nation in the MidEast, period. Not much doubt about that. For one thing they hate was Israel has accomplished. Where there were once stretches of desert (such as still are in the other surrounding countries) Israel has created fertile farming by using irrigation and watering techniques. Just look at Israel and then the other countries and it will seem like you are looking at countries from another planet. Israel has worked hard for what they have and I daresay there is a lot of bitterness, resentment and embarrassment from the other countries who have not. They would rather bring Israel down to their levels than rise to theirs. Palestinians are starving? Who supplies food to Israel? Certainly not their neighboring countries. They take care of themselves. Every dictator, terrorist group, or military-controlled government needs an enemy to maintain control, have a cause to unite the people and have something to be united against. Israel fits that bill very well. Instead of explaining to their citizens why they are not providing them with the basic services governments are expected to supply, they simply maintain a jihad against the Jews an do their best to insure the hatred is maintained. They have no problem bringing in the thousands of rockets used to bomb Israeli towns but they can't bring in food or supplies for their people? I propose they don;t want to. They want people hungry, angry and hating the Jews. Even now, when Israel is in full attack mode, they will not stop shooting off their rockets at small towns for no apparent military reasons, whatsoever. They hide among civilians to fight. These leaders could care less about their people and also any desire for the cessation of hostilities. They thrive on it. This time they may have miscalculated, however and they may pay the price for that miscalculation. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I find it interesting, especially since I posted that one thread about why Liberals seem to hate, Israel... I'd say: I told ya so, but I still don't get why they support Palestine so much and seem to really dislike Israel. An excellent question, one that gets to the core of liberalism. |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Until yours, you mean? Let's talk about the topic, please. Not the other people posting to the thread. |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
I fixed it, and had to laugh at the accuracy of your statement! I kinda thought you might say that. Had my eraser handy. Jeff but...you might admit that there is either a I'm For Israel I'm Against Israel flavor to this thread. |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: It's broad sweeping comments like this that promote the us and them thinking that you complain of Jeff. I've never voted anything but Tory in my life and probably will never change, I was educated at one of the foremost public schools in the UK, I venerate Margaret Thatcher and most of what she did and I have no time for left wing militants of any variety. But I hope I can still see and condemn hypocrisy, inequity and sheer illogical stupidity even when such condemnation runs counter to my natural political inclinations. And that's quite apart from any humanitarian considerations. And Stephen, "governments" aren't "the people". Certainly legitimate governments have covertly supported Hamas, just as the Irish government assisted and turned a blind eye to IRA activities, and your own government and mine are by no means blameless in assisting dubious organisations if it furthers their own selfish ends. Governments almost always act in their own self interest. Their self interest is staying in power. They stay in power with the authority of people. Desperate people generally engender bad governance. I don't deny that the challenge of changing people's views is immense (as it was in Ireland); I do deny that the best way of doing it is to kill people. The current situation fits in with your Christian views how? Stephen. A just war maybe? |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: quote: Yawn. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Instead of explaining to their citizens why they are not providing them with the basic services governments are expected to supply, they simply maintain a milhemet mitzvah against the Palestinians and do their best to insure the hatred is maintained The invalid point of your comment is that the Israel government DOES provide the basic services to their people. I can understand the yawn. Perhaps you were half-asleep when you wrote that? |
||
|
Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Palestinians = bad Israelis = good Or Palestinians = good Israelis = bad Gets us absolutely nowhere. Apart from the Israelis exterminating all the Palestinians or vice versus has anyone got any constructive ideas regarding how this problem might be resolved? Or does nobody really care as long as their “team” win. If we’re just picking sides I’m supporting the Palestinian people but I’m still voting Conservative. |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Yes I was half asleep Balladeer - bored to tears by the predictably shallow approach of partisans on both sides of the argument. Grinch put it very succinctly. And although the analogy wasn't perfect, the important parts of it were quite valid I think, while the bit you pulled me up on was a triviality, and moreover in relative terms i.e. with the resources available to and the restrictions place upon the respective sides, the Palestinians probably aren't doing too badly. A good start Grinch would be to convince the Israelis to stop their counterproductive attack. |
||
|
Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: That’s easy Moon - Threadbear and Deer can tell you how to do that - you just need to stop the military wing of Hamas lobbing rockets over the border into Israel - and they’ll do that if Israel stops their attack, but they’ll only do that if.. Even if you could get either of them to accept a ceasefire it wouldn’t be permanent. I’d ignore the Israelis and the Palestinians and concentrating on getting Jen and Threadbear to agree on a solution first. After them you’d need the backing of the Arab League, then you’d have to convince the UN. Once you’ve got a solution that satisfies and seems reasonable to all of them the Israelis and Palestinians wouldn’t have a choice but to accept it. |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Do what the Israelis did in Gaza, except move every Jewish thing and one living or dead to New Mexico . . . . |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
There have been a couple of posts stating something like the people of Gaza are starving because that’s what Hamas wants to happen - totally discounting the effect the Israeli blockade has had on the economy in Gaza ever since 1967. For those who may not know, Israel controls not only land access into Gaza but also patrols both air and sea so that nothing goes in or out without their permission. They’ve also restricted fishing, what used to be a primary food source for Gazans. Here are a couple of articles on that topic: “In 2007, after the election of Hamas, Israel imposed a total blockade of Gaza -- no imports, no exports, no movement by land or sea, reduced electricity, fuels and drinking water. Some food aid was allowed to dribble in. Palestinians survived by pulling food through hand-dug tunnels from Egypt. The effects have been devastating. Today, only 23 of Gaza's 3,900 industrial enterprises are operating. Gaza is forced to dump 70 million liters of raw sewage daily into the Mediterranean Sea because Gaza lacks the fuel and spare parts to operate the sewage treatment plant. Eighty percent of Gazans would starve if not fed by aid agencies. Normally the fall sardine-fishing season provides a cheap source of protein for Gazans. This year, the Israeli Defense Forces reduced Gazans' fishing area, preventing Palestinians from harvesting sardines.” http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_11409100 “When asked about major differences between pre- and post-1967, he elaborated, “For me, the most important to mention is the destruction or usurpation of Gaza’s natural resources and thus our self-sufficiency and ability to trade. For example, our water. The [Mediterranean] sea provided the backbone for Gaza’s economy, so Israel instituted policies that removed our ability to live off our resources, such as preventing fishing and refusing to allow Palestinians to trade or sell goods to other countries.” (Palestinian goods must pass through Israel by Israeli law, and Palestinians must accept whatever Israel decides is “fair market value.”) In addition to limiting freedom of movement, restricting trade and destroying Gaza’s natural resources or access to them, Israel also has decimated a thriving economy over the past four decades. Prior to 1967 Gaza exported citrus, carpets, pottery, embroidery, textiles and woven fabric throughout the world. The elimination of Gaza’s industries transformed the small coastal strip from a wholly independent into a dependent society.” http://www.wrmea.com/archives/May-June_2007/0705022.html |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Jennifer, I think you just found the solution to this whole mess. Someone needs to tell Israel to STOP giving Hamas permission to bring in those rockets! Geesh, you'd have thought someone over there would have come up with that a long time ago? You really don't get it, do you?  |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Do you get it that the reason Hamas was voted in had a lot to do with oppression and the blockade? Starve and imprison people and they're very likely to be ticked off enough to do wild and crazy things like fire rockets at their tormentors. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Actually, now that I think about it, what better way to take back Gaza and control the marine gas fields and the oil that most likely lies beneath those gas fields, than by starting a war supposedly because of the rockets. No rockets, no excuse for war? Permission granted! |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
Two things: First, Israel controls her borders. Gaza happens to be INSIDE of that border. If they didn't control access to the Med Sea, it would allow Iran to absolutely and freely move in arms. Gosh, surely they wouldn't take advantage of that would they? Secondly, if you are going to make the highly speculative case that Israel is retaking Gaza for oil, show me one shred of proof without going to Move-On type blogs. ...otherwise, it's pure supposition. Why should Israel trust the Palestinians to respect their borders and let them have 100% acess, a hole essentially, to let in terrorists who have say daily: we want to annihilate Israel? |
||
|
nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
"Starve and imprison people"...I guess, Jennifer, you may be too young or might not understand about the "holocaust" or had relatives tatooed and imprisoned, starved and gassed... The Israelis will never let something like that happen again or be chased from their lands by any group...Their peoples are made up of those having left countries where they weren't even considered human, where their properties were taken from them, where today there are still more peoples of Jewish decent who want to but still can't emigrate to Israel because they have no way out unless aided by other countries. They fight for their cultural and religious survival. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Quickies - busy today. Jeff, I believe there are many reasons why Israel started this slaughter, stopping the rockets being the least of them except as a campaign slogan for the upcoming election now about a month away. Try reading back issues of JP, that’s where you can find information about the marine gas fields, Israel’s negotiations with BG, the proposed underwater gas line, etc., and why Israel wants if not control then a puppet regime in Gaza. nakdthoughts, sorry, I don’t know your first name. Anyway, yes, starvation and imprisonment. Did you read the articles I posted in 111? Are you aware that 80% of people in Gaza, because of the blockade, are totally dependent on food aid for their very survival and that Israel restricted delivery of that aid to about 20% of need during the time of the most recent truce and cut it off completely for about two weeks last November around the same time they violated the truce with an incursion that not only killed Palestinians, but also destroyed agricultural land by bulldozing it. |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Grinch, regrettably I think a whole lot more people need to die before any serious talking starts, particularly on the Israeli side. It would be helpful I think if, say, the Russians or the Chinese could just step in and "polish off" 900 Israelis in short order. |
||
|
rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Jennifer, I believe If Israel fed the Gazans and gave them every fundamental need and foundation for prosperity, Hamas’ “radical” need to annihilate Israel would escalate, 10 fold, beyond what it is now. They would consider Israel’s involvement/aid to its people a ploy to corrupt the nation of Islam, or more particularly the Palestinian wing of The Muslim Brotherhood. Hamas’ fundamental goal is to resist any and all influence affecting their traditions and religious beliefs which are intricately woven so tightly into their political beliefs that the threads are virtually one. More power to them and the Palestinian right to be self-governed! But if they think Israel will cave in on the issues when their own fibers are saturated with the blood of their ancestors, it’s not only impractical, it’s insane. Religion aside! The Oslo Accords was a political move toward peace, and as I see it, both nations still had work to do. Though, Militantly, if Israel had nothing in mind but pure affliction toward their current adversary, they wouldn’t have stripped their forces from within the Gaza Strip. I don’t consider that to be a “psyche’ move and I’m sorry it wasn’t enough for the Palestinians and I’m sure there’s more than what meets the eye on both sides. But if Israel never had any desire for peace and all they wanted was what the strip has to offer, why withdraw? To recharge their batteries??? So they could really go in and easily do what they could have in the first place?? It would be beautiful if both sides could go back to the table with the same passionate energy of explosives and rethink the framework/idea of the Oslo Accords, but rejection without offering a true alternative is usually just rejection, and now the projection of firepower. |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Is that meant merely as an explanation of, or is it your justification for, the current Israeli behaviour - or maybe both? |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
Maureen, Nakedthoughts, brings up an excellent point: It seems that the younger people, who have grown up after the spectre of the Holocaust, don't fully appreciate the entire spectrum of history. It seems that they are much more likely to focus on current events and their view of Israel is skewed within the last 30 year window. The Israeli story is much deeper than that: they've been chased almost out of existence for nearly 3 thousand years. They are easily the most persecuted group of humans on Earth, and to not take into consideration their current actions with an eye to their past, is simply not seeing the whole picture in proper context. Even after WWII, nobody wanted to patriatate the Jewish fugitives. Even our beloved United States refused entry to Jews AFTER, except for a very low percentage of immigrants. During the war itself, ship after ship of Jewish immigrants were turned away from the Eastern US seaboards, some of which were forced to return to Europe and were destroyed in transit. The whole picture is horrific, and largely ignored today. I don't think I've ever seen a television special on national television about Jewish refugees, yet I have seen beaucoup tv docs/specials on Palestine. A devout Christian believes that the fate of Israel is directly tied to events that will signal the end times. This small country could very well be the key to the survival of the entire planet, yet most people know only the stereotypes of the Jewish people without knowing the befores/after sagas of them. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Why did Israel withdraw, Regina? Check out UN resolutions think it was spring of 2005. How have things changed since the withdrawal, Israel rules with an iron fist from outside the Strip rather than from within. Seems like the persecuted have become the bullies, doesn’t it, Jeff? Sort of like many abused children grow up to become abusers. |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “All Hamas had to do to prevent Israel's act of self-defense was to leave Israel unmolested by terror rockets. All Hamas needs to do now to stop this conflict and spare the Palestinian people it pretends to champion is to stop trying to kill Israelis and agree to let Israel exist in peace. Hamas didn't, and Hamas won't.” Which seems to always get lost in discussion. “How many administrations have to repeat the identical error of believing that, deep down inside, terrorists, gunmen and warlords really want peace every bit as much as we do? Israel's enemies aren't just looking to cut a sharp deal. They want to destroy Israel. Which part of what they shout in our faces is so hard to understand? “ A good question. “In this six-decade-old conflict that Israel's intractable neighbors continue to force upon it, there not only are no good solutions, but, thanks to the zero-sum mentality of Islamist terrorists, there aren't even any bad solutions - short of nuclear genocide - that would bring an enduring peace to the Middle East.” We forget that this has been going on, (along with “serious” negotiations), one way or another since 1948. http://www.nypost.com/seven/01102009/postopinion/opedcolumnists/the_demons _of_gaza_149549.htm?page=0 There’s some pretty hard hitting on the Left in the article as well. As to food: “As Israel withdrew in 2005, it bequeathed state-of-the-art hydroponic farms in which it cultivated some 30 percent of its vegetables in water-filled containers. Palestinians soon destroyed these high-tech facilities in an attack on Jew-farming techniques.” Since Israel has about six million people, “30 percent” would translate into something larger For the people of Gaza. And again remember 2007: “Two years later, the Islamo-fascist Hamas seized power from the merely radical Fatah. Inter-Palestinian barbarity exploded. “Women and children have been gunned down trying to get to hospital,” Greg Sheridan reported in June 16, 2007’s Weekend Australian. “Opponents have been bound and gagged and thrown from the tops of buildings.”” http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=M2Y2ZjQ1YTM2ZjFmODM3NzIyZDU1NDgyZTZlNzc1N2E= . |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
“All Hamas had to do to prevent Israel's act of self-defense was to leave Israel unmolested by terror rockets." The rockets stopped during the last truce but Isreal kept it's stranglehold, invaded, killed and captured Palestinians, and cut down aid deliveries on even more. I remind you, Israel, by their own admission, planned this war during the time of the last truce. |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "planned this war during the time of the last truce" Planning wars is what is done during times of peace so not to lose when it comes. Many countries including the U.S., Russia, China, India, etc. do it all the time. And the rockets did not stop coming . . . . |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Thanks, for reminding me, John, that I need to be more specific and keep firing away with those links and facts to back up what I post. I believe I said planning for this war, not formulating a general war plan. During the truce period July through November of 2008, there was a grand total of 14 rockets fired on Israel. These were attributed to rogue militants and not Hamas. After Israel broke the truce agreement in November with an incursion, Hamas resumed firing rockets in retaliation not only for the incursion that killed Palestinians and destroyed more farm land, but also because Israel failed for the entire truce period to keep another part of the agreement, removing restrictions on deliveries of food and humanitarian aid. |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: Does Hamas discourage violence of other groups Jennifer? More doubtful than anything I can think of. Hamas has not changed their position that a Palestinian State will exist with Jerusalem as the capital, and that Israel should be annihilated. Until that changes there will be war. Yes, war invariably involves hatred and inhumanity on both sides, but Israel has no such bellicose policy as this, which is THE perpetual cause of conflict. It stands to reason that a government with such a policy will always war against Israel, or refuse to punish or even applaud those who do. It's all the same thing. Israel is acting in defense. Stephen |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "After Israel broke the truce agreement in November with an incursion" "incursion" What was the nature of the incursion? " November The Israel Security Agency reports a sharp increase in the number of high trajectory weapon attacks, including towards Ashkelon. This was preceded by an ISA-IDF operation on the evening between November 4th and 5th. Between October 29th and November 6th 48 rockets and 21 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel. November 6-12th Israel attacks a 250 meter tunnel going from Gaza and under its border, claiming the tunnel is designed to capture additional Israeli soldiers and hold them hostage. Six Gaza fighters are killed and four Israeli special forces wounded. Hamas responds by firing 30 Qassam rockets at Israel. The truce agreed to five months ago is starting to founder.]Between November 5th and November 12th, 22 rockets and 9 mortars were fired into Israel." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008 "Weekly Update - November 06, 2008 Significant terror attacks: This week there was a sharp increase in the number of high trajectory weapon attacks (rockets/mortars) from the Gaza Strip into Israel, including towards Ashkelon. This was preceded by an ISA-IDF operation on the evening between November 4th and 5th, which exposed a tunnel ready for use, which was intended for the purpose of a large terror attack within Israel. This Israeli activity was undertaken in order to deal with an impending and urgent threat, and thus was not a rupture of the “Lull.” " http://www.shabak.gov.il/english/enterrordata/pages/weeklyupdate-11-06-08.aspx (Note the editing in the first source versus the second from which it probably came.) . |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I quite agree, Stephen, Israel isn’t nearly as bellicose, instead of words they use bulldozers and tanks. John, whether or not you recognize it, you’re saying the same thing I did. The rockets resumed after the incursion November 4th. The only difference is that your source breaks down the figures by weeks rather than days - something that started November 4th would be listed in the time period starting October 29. Funny thing about tunnels on the other side of your neighbor’s fence. You don’t have to step a foot on their property to keep them from coming onto yours. Here’s a link straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak, a graph from the Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center that may help clarify dates, John. Look a little less than halfway down the page and you’ll see the figures by month for 2008. http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ipc_e007.pdf |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
"John, whether or not you recognize it, you’re saying the same thing I did. The rockets resumed after the incursion November 4th. The only difference is that your source breaks down the figures by weeks rather than days" No, my reference explains why the "incursion" happened. Would it make any difference if the fighting happened on the Israeli side of the tunnel Hamas built? I doubt it. . |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Think about it John. Your enemy is on the other side of a fence with troops and tanks. Are you really going to dig a tunnel and pop your head up right in front of their scopes? That was one of the sillier reasons for the incursion the Israeli propaganda machine came up with. Had the Palestinians that were killed actually been on the Israeli side, it would have made a huge difference. The truce violation would have been theirs instead of the Israelis. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Bice try, John, but your points were ignored, along with Regina's. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Is there a rule that says posters must respond to every point in all the previous posts? Seems if there is, Balladeer, you just violated it. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Another diversion added to the list |
||
|
nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
"think about it" Jennifer, would just anyone risk being a suicide bomber in the middle of busy street markets,on busses etc... not caring who they kill least of all themselves? |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: No. This is the classic mistake that results in deadlock. Trying to change the "minds" of fanatics and madmen as a FIRST step is NOT the way to resolve conflict. And, more particularly, trying to change such minds using physical force is a sure path to long term misery. |
||
|
rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Jennifer, In the Spring of 2005, The Palestinians were helping the Israelis decommission their settlement heads as they created their own self-governing officials= Annex 1, which was a requirement also for the Road Map for Peace, (i.e. Oslo II) and the next step= Annex 2, which was helping the Israelis withdraw their forces. It was a 3 step process in the agreement of the Oslo Accords, which they never made it to Annex 3, as laid out for easy reading in wiki. IMO, All can argue till the end of time on what went wrong, who did what, and why Annex 3 never came about, but both sides were helping each other up until that point, with some setbacks- which are to be expected in a Bee’s Nest of age old discord. The ONLY thing that seems to be a modern brick wall to the process, despite the bouts of deaths suffered on both sides, despite the religious contention, terrorism, the posturing of war, the inhumane treatment of civilians, and every other thing that has been present in that area for eons, they were still Tabling peace off and on, UNTIL HAMAS was elected!! Add the lobbing of missiles and you have a new age type war, except Hamas is still a bit out-tech’d on what they have to lob, but hey, a mob of angry women helped to dethrone a French King with garden tools, so I guess it can be done. He was a bit prissy, though Israel is not. Neither is the Palestinian people’s right to be self-governed without suffering the indignity of monsters for leaders or monsters stomping on their core rights to exist as a peaceable and prospering nation. There is much work to do to ensure this, whether another single death occurs or not from either side. Hamas has always rejected the Oslo Accords, the Road Map for Peace, and anything else that calls for the end to violence. Why should they? They are a terrorist organization! “But Hamas co-founder Mahmoud Zahhar refused to renounce violence.” wiki. Are you suggesting that Israel secretly initiated the process for Hamas to be elected by the Palestinian people? So they could reign down on the Gaza Strip for some kind of sick pleasure and resource harvesting? The United States does not and will not negotiate with the Hamas regime. Like it or leave it, but I feel that expecting another country to negotiate with groups that our nation expends itself to put an end to is a form of bigotry, in that “Not I, but you need to lower your standards and tolerate Hamas.” Again, I say, back to the table. For the people’s sake, and whatever the beliefs are that preserve life, not take it away. Unfortunately, to some, bloodshed is life, and this is religiously expended for the sake of personal rewards in the hereafter, which is their passion for “peace at last” and not possible, here, in hell with the infidels. |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "Trying to change the "minds" of fanatics and madmen as a FIRST step is NOT the way to resolve conflict. And, more particularly, trying to change such minds using physical force is a sure path to long term misery." Which pretty much leaves going away or turning the other cheek while they cut off your head. . |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Hi Moonbeam, it's been what, at least a year since we've talked. quote: I am saying nothing about what the "first step" should be. I am merely stating a fact, that until they change their minds war is inevitable. On the other hand, we shouldn't be shocked that Israel is fighting back, and refusing to accept such a murderous policy on the part of Hamas. I don't believe that Israel would be aggressive if the Palestinians agreed to live in peaceful coexistence. I don't believe the same would be true of Hamas. To them, the existence of Israel in the Middle-East is intolerable, whatever the conditions. Stephen |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: No, it leaves the option of trying to remove the circumstances that give them power and support. quote: Hi ya Stephen - Happy New Year (Three quarters through The Everlasting Man for the second time in 30 years - amusing but annoying!)I disagree with that too. There are still men in NI who would gladly start a war with England. Their minds are no less determined on it than the day they blew up Manchester. But they've been marginalised, rendered impotent. |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
“No, it leaves the option of trying to remove the circumstances that give them power and support.” “Why don’t the Palestinians vote for some representatives who would make a lasting peace with Israel? Because any such candidates would be killed by the terrorists long before election day, so nobody volunteers for that dangerous role.” http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OWE3Mzg0NTMzYjdlOTAxY2JkMmU1ZjllOWM2M2Q4YmI= Which is not news. The “circumstances” are Hamas has weapons and a reputation for killing anyone who gets in their way. How many times does that have to be shown and known? The point has already been made and ignored: “““We hope that Hamas keeps on inventing new ways of killing the people so the rest of the world knows the truth and the reality of Hamas and how vicious they really are," said Rami, 35.”” Fatah, Hamas Battle in Gaza Threatens Government All Things Considered, June 12, 2007 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10988462 "and ask what the real reasons were" Maybe it was: ""the reality of Hamas and how vicious they really are,""” All the while, all quiet on the West Bank . . . Also ignored. . |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Where is your original post about the West Bank, John? I can't seem to find it. Regina, I'm sure I posted an article about US/Israeli influences that helped bring Hamas to power. Sorry, don't have time to search for it now, but if you're really interested, it is there. |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Moonbeam: quote: And marginalized, in my world, means a large-scale change of mind. Hamas has not been marginalized, but holds a view quite ubiquitous in the Muslim world ... even if toned-down in some quarters. Everlasting Man eh? Quite a book. If you get a chance read "Orthodoxy". The Everlasting Man is good, but bewildering to my mind. Orthodoxy is pithy, concise, and engaging. (Of course, I am sort of a choir member, I suppose) If you ever want to discuss particular frustrations / joys, I'd be thrilled. I rarely ever meet anyone who reads Ol' Gilbert. Stephen |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Ok, we sort of agree then, though the actual number of really vicious (for that is what they are) "minds" that are driving this are probably very small and they will probably never be changed. Bewildering for me only in the sense that sometimes it makes me feel like he is trying to bludgeon his points over with superlatives rather than analytical reasoning. He seems to magic convincing sounding syllogisms out of nowhere, and it's only later that you ask yourself: what was THAT all about! But his sense of humour is my sense of humour, so that makes up for it a little. I first came to Chesterton through one of my favourite authors, Dickens, but, at the time, reading EM caused me to venture no further, so I'll try and take your advice and read Orthodoxy. One thing became clear to me though as I read, and that's where your propensity to use the word "mere" originates from when you're in debating mode. |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Moonbeam, I am merely imitating one of the greatest writers ever. Stephen |
||
|
rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Jennifer, If you mean that the U.S. insisted that the Palestinian people have a fair and free election process after the death of Arafat in 2004, then yes, there is an influence toward an elected power, but the U.S. firmly objected then, when Hamas was entered into the electoral, and firmly objects now. If your link covers that important bit of information, then I’ll look it up. Otherwise, statements such as yours are about as reliable as the notion that Hamas put Obama in the White House. Empowering “conjecture” may help many people to posture their attitudes and positions in life, but it tends to suppress people’s potential by fitting it squarely into a bourgeois box. We can add that to the list of mistakes that we all make from time to time. But, Hamas was voted in by the Palestinian people, which is a cold hard fact. And I feel Hamas worked very hard, on their own, to get there. With their goals, why is it so hard to believe that they didn’t need any help from anyone, be it the U.S. Israel, or some guy in Tokyo? |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
"If your link covers that important bit of information, then I’ll look it up." It does, Regina. But isn't it being a bit narrow-minded to refuse to read something unless it contains a particular piece of information? I often read articles expressing a totally different viewpoint than mine, and haven't yet asked anyone to screen them before I do to make sure they contain certain facts, those I happen to think important or agree with. If one doesn't read both sides of an issue then don't you run the risk of having a viewpoint that's terribly skewed? Anyway, time to move on. Thanks so much for sharing your point of view and doing so in a very polite and courteous way. |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Moonbeam: quote: He would be the first admit that he isn't playing the part of logician, since, a major theme in all of his works is the limitation of reason. On the other hand, he would insist that only by acknowledging a mystical source, can one allow reason to breathe and live. As far as grandiloquent and bombastic style goes, yeah that's Chesterton alright. Pugnacious but lovable, I say. quote: I'm sure he would invite the questioning of his particular syllogisms, as long as you take his deeper point that without God, the validity of syllogism itself must accepted quite "out of nowhere". quote: Oh, and "Manalive" is very good as well, to give you a taste of his fiction. You simply must experience that in comparison to his overtly apologetic works. PS, I was tempted to say "mere logic" but resisted, are you proud of me? Stephen |
||
|
Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
What happens if we assume that everybody here is correct? While I might disagree with some of the details that one side or the other might bring up, It seems to me that everybody makes telling points, and most of them are based in a painfully acute view of reality. While I would be comforted if these views were mutually exclusive, I believe they are not. The issue to my mind is what do we do with human beings acting imperfectly as human beings are apt to act in conflictual situations, where fault and glory are available to everybody in full measure? Blaming the other guy and demanding that they change has been the strategy of choice in this go-around since 1948; it is perhaps the only thing Arab and Israeli have reached agreement upon. It sounds to me as though we, as a group, are firmly behind backing this losing strategy for another 60 years. At least this is the set of fixed positions we seem to take each time the subject comes up. If this is the case, we are all of us headed toward places where global warming is the rule and the method of transport is the hand-basket rather than anything fueled with fossil fuel. Why not start out with the basic assumption that everybody is right, and try to work out the contradictions rather than try to waste time fixing the blame. There's more than enough to go around for everybody to have their fill and more, and with legitimacy. Nobody's actually lying when they say they believe they're in the right here. Nobody's lying when they say they think other folks are wrong. That's merely the place we need to start from. Sincerely, Bob Kaven |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Bob, when Hamas says their ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel and death to the Jews, I don't really care how right they say they are. As far as global warming being the rule, anyone watching the weather reports these days?  |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Bob, Mike is right. Though I sympathize with your peacemaking heart (I'm not patronizing here in the least), I think sooner or later one comes to a crux, and a fork in the road. I believe that Israel, generally speaking, is acting defensively (though certainly not perfect), while the Palestinian leaders are acting in a genocidal pattern. I hate to seem a fatalist, but I don't think we'll see any semblance of peace in the Mid-East until the very end of the age. For me, it's been foretold. Don't misunderstand me, I still think we're obligated to try and do whatever may help. Stephen |
||
|
rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
quote: I’m sorry it seems that way, but I’m really just tired and overworked and don’t have much time for conspiracy theories that paint the U.S. out to be the monster in the closet. It goes against my nature and the nature of every Patriot in my family who's served this country. Our government makes plenty of mistakes, but to say that the U.S. conspires to empower those who want nothing more than to cross over into our beloved homeland to take us out by the thousands is propagating fear and aiding the enemy with more widespread damage than a localized suicide bomber. It also assumes the position that the U.S. has the power to handpick every nation’s leaders. Such does nothing to create a climate for peace and gives merit to the harsh labels that hurt to the core of our belief in freedom. I denounce that mentality on those grounds, and I’m sorry if it sounds like I’m soap-boxing, here, but I’m passionate about hope for all in this world to experience the Fear-Free Freedom they deserve as human beings. quote: I know I pointed out that we’ve all got work to do for the sake of peace, because I do read and listen to what’s called the news. I’ve found with my extensive reading (call it the librarian in me) that if I don’t read with discernible eyes and look for the facts, that’s it’s very easy to fall prey to the terrorist fear factor that America is against. Anyone can take what we say and do and organize it to read very objectively that we’re Hamas members disguised as PiPsters. It’s called creative writing. I apologize if I’m wrong, but your posts seem to be more one sided in that both sides of your coin were spent casting blame on the U.S and Israel, and not one penny for Hamas’ responsibility was laid on the table. That’s terribly skewed, to me, and I’m calling your bluff and raising you a currently reduced in value American dollar that if Hamas stays in power the future of the Palestinian people will also be terribly skewed, which goes against the “fair and free” objective they deserve and was insisted upon by the U.S. If I lose my dollar, oh well, it’s still worth a mint to me to get to spend it however I dang well please. But here’s a fact list for you: quote:wiki Now, until we get on that list in the place of Hamas, I’m going to expend my energy in supporting this great country and our friends, instead of supporting conspiracy theories, even if it’s damn hard in these times to do so. It takes a lot of guts to denounce fear, and I can only do so if I believe with all my heart we’re holding each other up, whether our Govs. lets us down or not. I pray that the Palestinian people find their feet in the same manner, which would get my head chopped off by Hamas for calling upon any Captain of Life, other than their own. (I say “we” collectively, which I’m only guessing you’re American, and if I’m wrong I’m not sorry, of course, lol, I’m just as equally thankful for your courtesy, no matter, unless you really are a member of Hamas disguised as a PiPster.) So as long as you ain’t strapped for martyrdom, we’re friends, dear Jennifer. And I thank you for the exchange of thoughts. |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
“Numerous times in the past, Israel has shown itself willing to reach an agreement with the Palestinians, on conditions similar to those propounded by the Quartet, first and foremost recognition of Israel's right to exist, followed by a guarantee that there will be no further resort to violence, including terrorist attacks on civilians (and that includes firing rockets at them). As time has passed, especially since the death of Yasser Arafat, a degree of pragmatism has entered the Palestinian mind, but not the thinking of Hamas. Not only will Hamas not make peace with Israel in order to create a viable Palestinian state, they are as ready to kill Palestinian Muslims in order to gain total control of Gaza and the West Bank. . . . When Hamas announces a temporary cease-fire (a hudna or, recently, a tahdiyya or lull), it does so, not to have an opportunity to talk peace, but to regroup and re-arm. "Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement." The only solution to the Middle East problem is war: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors." . . . “This is the only fighting force in history to boast that they have made human shields of their own people. There are films of "brave" Hamas gunmen dragging screaming children along to serve as shields, and of civilians sent onto the roofs of rocket launching sites, where, ironically, they know the Israelis will not fire on them. It is a mockery of military ethics, yet it goes barely noticed in the Western media. Israel is not alone in fighting terrorism. Even now, this country fights al Qaeda and its affiliates in Iraq or the Taliban in Afghanistan. If we ever gave up the fight against Islamist terror in Britain, we would reap the whirlwind in bombings on land and in the air. Why then do so many of us scorn what Israel does? A combination of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran could one day bring Israel down and result in the deaths of millions of Jews. Is there any good reason why Israel should acquiesce in this? Is our grass roots anti-Semitism still so ferocious that we cannot bear the thought of a Jewish state in the Middle East, even if that state was brought into being by a majority vote of the UN?” http://www.meforum.org/article/2048 “Is there any good reason why Israel should acquiesce in this? Is our grass roots anti-Semitism still so ferocious . . . ' I have to wonder the same things. Nothing above about Hamas is new Or unknown, they’re quite open, and still it is the Jews that are Condemned as the problem. |
||
|
Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
quote: Dear Huan Yi, To the degree the above in any way reflects a response to my above posting, I suggest that it is wrong. My suggestion was not that anyone should give in; it was that everybody was right, and could pretty well prove it. I have friends and relatives in Israel and none that I know of in any of the arab and islamic countries, and I lost a large number of relatives in the Shoah. That doesn't make the way Israel approaches the issues it has today either better or worse. I am unhappy at some of the historical choices taken by the arabs over the past hundred years or so in regard to the Jews. A lot of those choices were the result of things they did themselves; some were the result of large power decisions after world war I. They still have the issues they have to live with now in relationship with Israel, for good or ill. Both sides are absolutely convinced of their rightness and both sides have radical elements that are intractable, and which will sabotage any efforts toward peace that more reasonable elements would encourage. Both sides have made a mock of the peace accords. Each side distrusts the other for very good reasons. The essential question for each side is, What will I have to do differently in order to have peace in five years? I can take responsibility for what I say I will do. If the discussions can be centered around that, a solution can be found. If, instead, the discussions are centered around, What do YOU need to do differently before I will change? one can look back and read the results of that approach from the history books. More of the same. I am not responsible for doing things that are conditional on your accomplishment of something first. Who knows that I will ever be satisfied with what you do? Sincerely, Bob Kaven |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Gosh! What a surprise! The Israelis have had their last killing fling and decided they've done the job just in time, before their sponsor, Bush, steps down! So Hamas are polished off are they Balladeer? |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Your entry is not worthy of a comment, moonbeam. |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: You just made one .But anyway the point is that one hopes that Israel will not receive from the new US administration the carte blanche it has had from Bush to behave exactly as it pleases. I have a feeling the Israelis know damn well they will now have to justify their behaviour in a less biassed international atmosphere and are therefore preparing to be good boys. And the point I was trying to make is that Israel has not, as you promised they would, annihilated Hamas. Hamas are still there, and I suspect will now be politically all the stronger for the Israeli action. Physical and military strength will follow in due course, and off the whole cycle will go again. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yes, perhaps Israel will now be "good boys" and just smile or turn their heads when the Hamas rockets continue to hit their cities...but don't count on it, regardless of who sits in the Oval office. [This message has been edited by Ron (01-19-2009 11:47 PM).] |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
A QUICK TAKE: Palenstinian claimed body count during conflict 2,500 Hamas claimed boy count today at news conference: "they failed. They only killed 48. We will reimport weapons now that they've pulled back. We have that right." (paraphrased) See why you can't negotiate with terrorists? |
||
|
Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Threadbear, I don't follow your logic Threadbear. This doesn't mean you couldn't be right, but I really don't follow the logic. You could with as much certainty say that Hamas has managed to use Israel to prop up what might be a potentially precarious Hamas political future by provoking a disproportionate response from the Israeli Right. Each side then gets to say, "What do you expect from (fill in your own expletive to be deleted here)-heads? —See, everything we said to you about them was right. It was all predictable." As much as this is a Palestinian/Israeli conflict, it remains a Palestinian/Palestinian conflict and an Israeli/Israeli conflict. The Palestinian/Israeli conflict in some ways may actually be secondary to the religious power conflicts or perhaps simply the plain power-politics within each religious group. Each time it appears that the National politics seem to be approaching some sort of natural winding down point, an internal quarrel within one or the other group sets it off again. In this, each side is almost a mirror image of the other. Sincerely, Bob Kaven |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
That was a simplistic post on my part, sorry. Here's the dirt: if two parties want peaceful negotations, then BOTH parties have to be sincere in their promises. Israel heeded the cease-fire request, regardless of the reasoning, they've halted the killing. Hamas is using that cease-fire to destroy the negotiations. They said they will use this time to restock both men and supplies. Pictures say a thousand words: ****http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00114/84356198_114889t.jpg*** The mere fact that they are SO BLATANT about it, further inforces my premise they are totally insincere. It is my belief that the Palestinians will not ever quit their harassement of Israel. Their stated goal, over and over again, is NOT regaining the Gaza- they say it is the total annilihation of Israel. They said it again this weekend during the press conference. Notice I said: Palestinians. They dutifully selected and elected Hamas during a democratic procedure. They made their bed, now they are stuck with the results. THAT is why you can't negotiate with terrorists or fanatics. No reconcilation, no compromise, no promise keeping. |
||
|
Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Threadbear, You have a point, especially if you are talking about two party negotiations. But these aren't really two party negotiations, are they? Within both Israeli and Palestinian camps, there are at least two and sometimes more quarreling factions, funded separately (I think) and with separate goals in mind. At the top of everybody's priority list is not, repeat NOT, making peace with the other party. It is acquiring and/or maintaining power on its own Palestinian or Israeli side. Sometimes, it is acquiring or maintaining power within its own party, as you might have seen between Netanyahu and Sharon, for example, which might well have had a significant role to play in setting off a recent round of uprisings when Sharon actually went to The Temple Mount Mosque, something he knew very well was guaranteed to set off riots. The focus there was possibly, even probably, a power struggle within various parts of the Israeli establishment that made use of the predictable Muslim counter-action to tilt the Israeli politics further toward the hard right. You can equally easily point out similar sets of events on the Palestinian side as well. When peace to approaches, one side or the other uses this as a strategic time to challenge the power arrangements on their side. If they don't to it on their own, sponsor states may use these occasions to jockey for power so they may use the upset in the power balance to affect the status quo within their own organizations or states. The Saudis are particularly good at this, because it keep the focus off the various internal problems in their government. I am offering only the most flimsy of surface sketches here, but you might try looking at the history of the attempts to make peace, and notice what seems to get in the way, and from where. This is not any conspiracy theory; it is instead an acknowledgement that there are more than two players in what we mostly pretend is a two player situation. The multi-player theory better explains the various twists and turns in the scenario than an over-simplified two-party scenario which doesn't factor in Israeli on Israeli assassinations or Palestinian on Palestinian assassinations. "Terrorist" is an extremely flexible role, and can be taken on by almost anybody, certainly in the events in Palestine over the last hundred years, when it has been applied to almost everybody ever involved, including the British, The Jews (Remember the Bombing of The King David Hotel, for example), the Muslims of various stripes, the French, The Egyptians, The Soviets and certainly We the People of the United States. All with some degree of accuracy. And the list is incomplete. This, once again, doesn't suggest you're wrong. I do suggest, however, that your model of the conflict doesn't offer us any new information, or suggest a different method of dealing with the situation, only more of the same. The same hasn't work for 60 years, and the evidence for it suddenly starting to work in year 61 seems less than convincing to me. Respectfully, a new way of looking at the problem might be more useful. Sincerely, Bob Kaven |
||
|
threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
Kissinger was asked once, whether there could really be a peace settlement in the Middle East. I was imprinted permanently by his answer, and again I'm paraphrasing here (poorly, too...lol) (If i had the time or energy, I would normally try to trace the quote and post it) "I think the best we can hope for there, is to buy 4 or 5 years of peace... (at a time). Wars and the threat of war, are the ways this 4 or 5 years is bought." |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
"imprinted"! Threadbear in that case if you sincerely want an end to the middle east conflict you should cease to listen to yourself and listen to others like Bob who just gave a very good precis of some of the complexities and thus why the phrase "I will not negotiate with terrorists" is irrelevant and unhelpful. |
||
|
rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
That’s a tall order, Moonbeam. Perhaps we should all listen to the experts who say that Negotiating with Terrorists has one clear guarantee: There are no guaranteed results. Wanting an end to the Middle East crisis really is a bit more involved than just the wanting, no matter how deeply sincere, how actively involved in peace one is, or how clear one’s motives are for a non-violent right to exist side by side. If others' clear position is to reject anything anyone wants outside of their own beliefs, “rendering them impotent” is a tough endeavor, when their rejection seems to be an endless supply of Viagra to their war machine. The Obama team says: "The President-elect has repeatedly stated that he believes that Hamas is a terrorist organization dedicated to Israel's destruction, and that we should not deal with them until they recognize Israel, renounce violence, and abide by past agreements," transition spokeswoman Brooke Anderson said in a written statement.” Fox Now that Obama is President, all we can say is, "we'll see." You’re right about the complexities, and telling people to “cease listening to themselves,” paraphrases exactly how Hamas operates in gaining its supporters, as well. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You’re right about the complexities, and telling people to “cease listening to themselves,” paraphrases exactly how Hamas operates in gaining its supporters, as well. Not to mention Al Qaeda and the other terrorist groups. Well said, Regina! |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
My sister and her husband have a very hyper Jack Russell terrier, with a bark so shrill it can cut glass. Over the course of two years, they've used doggie treats to help them train their pet to sit, lay down, roll over, shake hands, the usual array of canine tricks. Unfortunately, they've also inadvertently taught their dog to be a royal pain in the rear. If they leave a dish rag, pot holder, napkin, or anything similar, laying within reach of the dog (and when she jumps that dog has a very long reach), she will immediately snatch it for an impromptu game of keep-away. Catching a Jack Russell, of course, is right up there with exceeding the speed of light; it ain't going to happen in this universe. So my sister, desperate to get her towel or such back, has resorted to bribing the dog with a treat. It works, I guess. And it works more and more frequently, too. Rewarding bad behavior just reinforces bad behavior. That's true of dogs, and it's equally true of terrorists. |
||
|
Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Agreed, Ron. It's a pretty good principle. Unfortunately, it works with whatever the variety of "terrorist" is trying to provoke the non-symmetrical response. They all feel perfectly justified in what they do, and they all have apologists. All the apologists feel they're making perfect sense as well. That's because they are, at least to their particular audience. This is one of the reasons that conflict can be self-perpetuating. Everybody feels that they're right, and everybody who agrees with them is willing to cheer them on. On each side. The longer the conflict goes on, the more grudges pile up for ugly behavior on either side. Each side feels absolutely justified. This is a model for a number of conflicts we talk about repeatedly in these pages. Over and over, we list the flaws and faults of those who disagree with us, without seeming to notice that they're able to do the same with us. Their quibbles with us may be different than ours with them, but at least some of them in areas like Choice/Abortion, or Left/Right, or Palestinian/Israeli have something to them. None of the people here I disagree with are idiots or fools, nor am I an idiot or a fool. So what are the areas in these conflicts that we can come to some agreement on in a mutually respectful way? |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Exactly so Regina. Unlike what the Israelis have just done and the British did for years till they knew better, where there ARE guaranteed results: lots of (usually innocent) people die. quote: You're right again Regina. But look at who specifically I was telling to stop listening to himself, not just anyone, but Jeff. Who by his own admission was "imprinted" with a particular view from listening to a particular quote. Of course people who have a broad balanced and educated view should listen to themselves, but you and Balladeer are absolutely right, once someone or some organisation or religious group gets its mental claws into you and starts to imprint or brainwash you (as with Hamas and in Jeff's case, Kissinger) that's when you need to try to question your "own" judgement and listen to others. [This message has been edited by moonbeam (01-22-2009 02:29 PM).] |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. President Thomas Whitmore: “What do you want us to do? “ Captured Alien: “Die.” . |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: I don't see that this does anything than state the self evident. And, as no-one here has suggested "rewarding" terrorists, I don't see it advances the discussion either. If however you are suggesting, as Margaret Thatcher ineffectually tried to suggest, that it is a "reward" to a "terrorist" group to even talk to an "executive arm" of that group then I think you are wrong. It's far more of a reward NOT to talk to them, to ban them from TV (remember Gerry Adams), to kill their killers and the innocents who get caught up in it. That's the true reward to terrorists Ron, when we get provoked into the same killing that they do, when we honour them with combatant status. That's the sort of behaviour that buys them martyr status and more power. That is what the killers want. You pressure people to mentally accept compromise not by giving them what they want, nor by removing all possibility of getting what they want, but by a subtle blend of threat and hope. |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Georgia plantation master: "What do you want me to do?" Slave: "Die." |
||
|
rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
quote: And I don’t like that as much as the next person who appreciates life. I think all countries have gone there and done that and nobody wants the T-shirts, but the initial spark for our beginnings (in reference to the British) was “taxes without representation,” not terrorism, which some may liken the terms as one and the same, but sometimes we really do learn a hard lesson when we’re not quite prepared to back-up our reasoning for War—Canada handed our arses to us in 1812 and didn’t give a crap about conquest, and therefore we struggled until 1815 when some hero named Andrew Jackson helped us find our tails. There wasn’t much of a White House left for anyone to occupy, since it was burnt down, but the results are: We re-evaluated our position along with everybody else. Hamas doesn’t need any provocation to back-up their lethal legacy. They are Agents Provocateurs and s'ennuyé automatiquement (automatically self-annoyed.) Which may sound better than terrorist but the road behind them and ahead of them is that which is aptly named: Hamas: “Islamic Resistance Movement” =Terrorist, in about every language. |
||
|
Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear rwood, The Battle of New Orleans took place after peace was declared between Britain and the US. I'm fond of Jackson, too, by the way; but he was not a nice man. Taxation without Representation was indeed one of the things that set off the American Revolution. But you shouldn't overlook a number of stupid British over-reactions to local protests which created enormous propaganda victories for the radicals in the American Colonies. Military over-reactions are what terrorists want, exactly for that reason. The Boston Massacre comes to mind immediately. Hamas is not, repeat is not, the same as the American Revolution. But Hamas is not, repeat is not, so stupid that it cannot learn lessons from the American Revolution. They can get the same radicalizing effects among their population if they can make the Israelis over-react as massively as the British did in our population more than 200 years ago. They have been more than successful. There are at least two civil wars going on over there in Israel/Palestine, one on each side of the border. Israelis on the right and the left usually manage to keep their conflict below the shooting level, though as the assassination of Begin shows forcefully enough, this is far from the rule and more of a fond hope. The Palestinians are the same, except more actively and with many more factions. Each side is thrilled to keep the focus on folks from the other religion; it helps them pursue their own internal power struggles all the better. As any observation of the situation of the situation over the past 60 years will show, they are more interested in fighting or provoking a fight with each other than they are in making peace, even though the fight threatens to destroy both of them. Better that than some other party win out in the parochial power struggles on each side. There are no shortage of bystanders willing to keep the conflict moving for one sort of political gain or another in their respective homelands. Yes, there are terrorists in Israel and in Palestine. Yes, it's in everybody's interest to keep the situation going at this sort of medium boil because it keeps the whole middle east from going off like a powder keg when the various governments are recognized by their populations for the sort of folks they actually are. The terrorists stop showing up when they stop serving the national interests of one group or another. For the Turks, T.E. Lawrence's guys were terrorists. There were terrorists on both side in Northern Ireland and for the most part just about everyplace else. Bin Ladin worked for us for a long time; he was our Terrorist against the Russians. We had our Terrorists in Central America during the Reagan administration, which was were the money from the Iran/Contra transactions went, if you remember. We funded the Contras. They killed all sorts of people, including nuns, and you can bet we're funding them someplace now as well. Once the smoke clears, maybe we can find out where. The question is what to do about it. Sincerely yours, Bob Kaven |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Fair enough. Though I don't know what an executive arm is or why it would be in quotes? FTR, I wouldn't have any difficulty talking to a terrorist. I doubt he would like what I'd have to say. What I would not do, ever, is negotiate with a terrorist. Like Thatcher and most other civilized leaders, I wouldn't want people to think violence is the best way to get my attention. quote: The reward, Moonbeam, is giving them what they want. I don't think that's necessarily the same for all terrorists, but I certainly can't accept they all want "martyr status and more power." Power without a goal to drive it is useless. Terrorism doesn't work. To the best of my knowledge, it never has. It is the refuge of the frustrated, the final gambit of the desperate, the place people go before realizing they can't always have everything they want. Terrorists are criminals. The guy who robs a bank gets a chance to convince me he didn't rob the bank. He doesn't get a chance to talk me into paying him not to rob banks. That would be too much like giving him a doggie treat. |
||
|
Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Ron, I think you might want to think a bit about your comment that Terrorism not working, Ron. I think that you'd have to go to some extraordinary lengths to justify that statement. Certainly It worked in Afghanistan when the Soviets left. Certainly it worked in Palestine when the British left. You might chose other examples as well. If Terrorism as a basic tactic didn't work, it would have been dropped a long time ago. One of the reasons it works so well is that it does the enemy's recruiting for him. Simply because Terrorists are loathsome human beings does not make them stupid human beings, or make what they do ineffective. If one is familiar with Clauswitz, then a re-reading of Sun-tsu can be helpful here. Sincerely, Bob Kaven |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Bob, we're probably operating under different definitions of the word. When the British leave Britain, then I'll agree that terrorism works. |
||
|
rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Hey, Bob. Yep, AJ was not well informed of a declaration of peace, or so they say. Perhaps he was a wee bit Napoleonic? But, no self-respecting Tennessean can discuss the War of 1812 without mentioning his name. I’m most fond of him in my wallet.  quote: I’m not overlooking any of your excellent points that provided us a “proper” reason for a revolt. The Townshend Acts caused enormous upheaval. I don’t see that the British over-reacted. Anyone would have a nervous trigger finger when he knows his fate was just penned by his own greedy overlords. "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter,” I suppose, but I don’t call “Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,” a by-product of terrorism. The foundations are radically disjointed. So we agree upon the fact that Hamas’ reasoning isn’t anything like the American Revolution, which was my point about death and dying and reasons like Freedom to do so. And I don’t know if I can agree on whether Hamas is stupid or not, since no one could call the end result of any victory they may ever achieve “family oriented,” at least not within this world. Maybe on some other plane of existence, but not this one, really. I think that’s the problem. I have a different opinion about their quest for Israel. I feel they want people to believe it’s a turf war, but they’re using the turf as a bluff. They won’t stop there even if Israel was handed to them. It’s the people they want dead and the land is just a symbolic setup. Any and all differing ways of life are their grounds for death. That’s my opinion, and I’m sticking with it until they get happy making babies and they fold their killer cards. However, you do have a clear point about overreaction, but not every episode from Hamas was met with overreaction. Israel did not strike out every single time Hamas took a swing at them, but they seem to have really struck-out with the public when they did. It’s so terribly sad and confusing and exhausting from every perspective, as you well touch on. Right now, I feel what Hamas is most successful at is getting people to ride the fence about living arrangements. Everyone has someone to answer to, here upon the planet, and you're right to point out hired guns and weaponry sales that are devoid of benevolence. We're answering for that in so many ways. Hamas feels they have no one to answer to but their God. Good question. What to do about that?? Have a great Friday, Bob. reg |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Ron, terrorist "armies" often have cabal of people who purport to be the voice of the army. People who supposedly don't kill, but put forward the demands of the organisation. Sinn Fein was for a long time regarded as the executive arm of the IRA for instance. Thatcher would not talk to them for that reason. I put it in quotes because a lot of people are still cynical about the application of a pacific word like "executive", implying peaceful business motives, to the idea of a body of people who apparently try to kill and talk at the same time. The point I was making is that by pursuing a policy of war and killing against them you ARE giving them what they want. You elevate them to hero and martyr status in the eyes of the simple people who make up their underlying base of support. You give them power. What they use that power for varies I guess. To some the power itself is their end I think, those aren't really the terrorists so much as just megalomaniac killers who would seize on any cause to fulfill their desires. I don't believe they are more than a small minority. Terrorism does get attention whether you like it or not. Look at your sister's dog, look at the average new born baby. Sure they don't kill, but you get the picture. Ignoring it, fighting it with fire has already been proven not to lessen the use of it as an attention seeking tactic. Violence does get attention Ron and always will. What's important is how you react to that violence, how you deal with attention seeking. By an amazing coincidence even as I write I learn that Obama has just appointed George Mitchell as Middle East peace envoy. You remember him? The guy who was the subject of a huge amount of criticism for "negotiating with terrorists". The guy who gave up his family life to commute back and forth between Ireland and the US and who earned the Presidential Medal of Freedom for his pains. Also the guy, who perhaps above all others, ought to be credited with bringing to an end hundreds of years of bloodshed and what people said was an impossible deadlock. And not with bullets Ron, but with words. I'm starting to get the feeling that Obama actually is the person that so many want him to be, for just by this single act he's shown a much deeper understanding of the psychology of the so called terrorist, and of human behaviour generally in a seemingly intractable conflict. Here's the press release from the Belfast Telegraph just now: "Mitchell appointed as Middle East peace envoy Friday, 23 January 2009 The man who chaired the talks that led to the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 has been appointed to the post of Middle East peace envoy by President Barack Obama. Former Senator George Mitchell will spear-head US efforts to negotiate a settlement between Israel and Palestine. The 75-year-old said he doesn't underestimate the difficulty of the assignment but added that Northern Ireland was once seen as a conflict that couldn't be ended." quote: You won't have to wait long Ron - we have a far more effective deterrent to remaining here. It's called Gordon Brown - aka Saviour of the World. Now I feel sick |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: Well God's just gonna have to answer them differently. (I would say he does and has) The death and destruction speak a pretty loud divine "you've got me wrong on this one" to me, but then again, some may never hear (though I hope otherwise). I think religion that slaughters is religion as an excuse to do evil acts (even if one has been self deceived in thinking them to be good). Stephen |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||
