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Sympathy For Blago
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Sympathy For Blago |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan 
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. If anyone has been paying attention, I’m hardly a Democrat, yet I feel sorry for Rod Blagojevich, the governor of my state. The accounts suggest he isn’t a rich man and was trying, however crudely, to assure through his dealings, taking advantage of the opportunities afforded him by the moment, that he and his own wouldn’t finacially suffer in the future. Who wouldn’t with a family, not being wealthy, do the same thing. . . Meanwhile others walk in sunlight where only flowers grow to feed both lion and lamb. . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Who wouldn’t with a family, not being wealthy, do the same thing. . . Anyone honest. There are many people with families making a lot less than him and don't turn into criminals. I doubt his family was on food stamps. Sympathy for him. Don't bother looking here. Believe it or not, my sympathy goes with Obama. I don't think he was involved in this and yet just the chicago connection hurts him. Whether I like it or not, the man will soon be the president and I'd like for him to have a chance. He didn't need this.... |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: ~~THUD~~ moonbeam fainting. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Lol!  Sorry, moonbeam, didn't mean to make you lose your balance.I don't think Obama is qualified to be top dog. I think he lied about his past associations and I don't think he will deliver on his promises. Having said that, he IS going to be the president and, believe it or not, my country is my top concern. It would not be good for America to have him shackled by events not of his making at the beginning of his leadership. He should have the chance to succeed or fail based solely on what he does when assuming command. If he fails, it will become obvious. If he succeeds and the country is better for it, he will have my respect and applause. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Just curious, has Bush earned your respect and applause? |
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Susan Caldwell Member Rara Avis
since 2002-12-27
Posts 8348Florida |
"Anyone Honest" Ditto. Course being honest gets you mostly kicked in the gut. But still. "too bad ignorance isn't painful" |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You're not curious, Jennifer, just trying to get another argument started. Not interested.... Susan, then one has to determine if the honesty is worth the pain. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Nope, not interested in arguing about Bush, he's history. Really was just curious whether he'd earned your respect and applause. Now I'm even more curioius about why you're not willing want to commit yourself one way or the another. But that's ok, think I understand. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
In selecting men for office, let principle be your guide. Regard not the particular sect or denomination of the candidate — look to his character.... Noah Webster, Letters to a Young Gentleman Commencing His Education, 1789 Words of wisdom largely ignored today it appears. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Here's another gem! Nothing is more essential to the establishment of manners in a State than that all persons employed in places of power and trust must be men of unexceptionable characters. Samuel Adams, letter to James Warren, November 4, 1775 |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Well any honest man, no matter how poor would not try to pull off what Rod Blagojevich did. For every action there is going to be a subsequent consequence right? As for Obama, I don't think this will hurt him one bit either. What I don't understand about American politics or people is that you now have a President Elect that has been chosen by the majority of your citizens, so whether you voted for him or not, why isn't everyone being part of the solution, instead of a problem? He may be inexperienced as some suggest. He may be not be lot of things his publicity team made him out to be, but he is now your President for this term, and has a huge job awaiting him. He can use your help. He may not deliver on all his promises like every other President in history, but I am willing to bet this man gets gray hair trying. I felt I just had to give my two cents on this, as no matter who was elected, I think I would want to support them 100% until they needed to be removed, or impeached for violation of their terms of office. Hey, our politics up here aren't exactly rosy right now either, but somehow we will all stick together to see it through. Merry Christmas Huan Yi by the way, and thanks for making me "think" over this past year about a lot of things I normally would let go. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Exactly what I said in my post, Mysteria. Thank you... |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
What if he didn't meet the requirements in the first place to even run to get those votes, Sharon? Wouldn't they have been gained by fraudulent means? Would it be considered being part of the solution and not being a problem, if he really shouldn't have been accepted on the ballot, but we give him our support anyway? Or would the reverse be true under those circumstances? Maybe he is qualified under our Constitution to be President, but maybe he's not. The problem is, nobody really knows for sure. And that just shouldn't be the case, ever, but especially from someone who pledged transparency in government. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Denise, Ever seen the film Miracle on 34th Street? Obama met the requirement of the state officials that added his name to the ballot, he met the requirement of the people who voted for him and, if the electoral college confirm that vote, he’ll have met the requirements under the constitutional laws for electing a President. You can call it a paradox if you like, or a circular argument but if he’s inaugurated as President his status as a natural born citizen is beyond question because he had to be one to become President. Remember the film Miracle on 34th Street? In the court scene Kris Kringle is found by the judge to be Santa because the US postal service, a branch of the Federal government, accepts that Kris Kringle is Santa. If the state officials, the people of America and Congress accept Obama’s status as a natural born citizen then, however much it may annoy you, he is a natural born citizen. Great film btw, I think I’ll go and dig it out again. Bah - Humbug! |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. I think it must be hard to expect going soon from a somebody to a nobody. I just get the sense not of greed but desperation. . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I don't think so Grinch, this isn't a movie. Well, I guess it could qualify as a Mystery! He doesn't gain natural born status, if he doesn't have it, simply because he was allowed to be placed on the ballot. He could have been placed there in error by those who assumed he was qualified by virtue of his affidavit. The 'people' and Congress have accepted Obama, despite knowing whether he is qualified or not. Well, except for Bill Richardson. He seems to know that Obama is an immigrant, at least he said he was. Their acceptance can't confer a birth status on him that he may not actually possess. State Officials, the voting public, the Electoral College and Congress can, in all actuality, accept, vote for, confirm and ratify those votes, either through ignorance or design, for a fraudulent candidate. But, I know, it's hard to believe that a Chicago politician and Constitutional lawyer would be anything but truthful and above board in all his dealings! He'll be the only President in history that, when you do a search for his birthplace, all you'll find is a Fight The Smears link! That might make homework assignments a bit sketchy! It's astonishing that no hospital in Hawaii is clamoring to claim to be the birthplace of the first African-American President in U.S. history! It boggles the mind! |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
John, get over it. You're not talking skid row bum here. The jerk had more than probably anyone here had, plus a high position, plus marrying well. Desperation? Come on down. I'll show you some desperate people. He ain't one.... Well, he is now.... |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
A long time ago, my baby was sick. I was frantic and distraught, and called my parents. My mother came over, and we stopped to get some of that liquid baby aspirin stuff--even 18 years ago the stuff was nearly ten dollars for a small precious vial of the stuff. We went in the drug store, because I had not a penny to my name, my mother had come to my rescue. I picked a box of the stuff, and the box was empty. The next box I picked up, was also empty. "Shoplifters!" My mother expressed her disgust. I just kept looking until I found a box that had the medicine in it, while she ranted on about thieves. I told her that some people didn't have a safety net of family or friends to come to their rescue. I told her further that if I did not have her to help her, and my baby was sick, I'd probably become a thief too. She was shocked when she saw the high price of the medicine when we checked out at the register. I told her the real thieves were the pharmaceutical companies who overpriced baby medicines, holding people emotionally hostage, knowing that those people would pay any price when their children are ill. So I understand your sympathy for the devil, John. I hope my stories don't annoy you too much. ?But Blago? I don't think he's in the same boat, either. The quotes I heard disgusted me. I am living without a net now, btw. I seem to have a lot of company on the high wire too. Let's hope things don't get too intolerable for the peasants. To quote my father-- "Desperate people do desperate things." Peace to you this holiday season.  |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Serenity gal, if you were to say you would steal medicine for your sick child, I would go along with it. It's an understandable decision. To flip it over to "I'm not the thief, the pharmaceutical companies are" kills it for me. You ARE the thief...you simply feels that your actions are necessary. These justifications of pointing fingers elsewhere for one's own actions is a cop-out. I would do the same thing to save a child...but I would acknowledge it for what it is. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I wouldn't plead innocent if I was caught Mike. Therein lies the difference... |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Trust me it will be at some point. It’s never going to get to the scene where Obama is standing in court defending his status though, not if the movie is a depiction of real events. As I’ve said before it’s unlikely that it’ll ever get that far, you‘d have to find two idiots stupid enough to challenge the vote in the electoral college or an equally stupid individual to try to impeach him once he‘s sworn in. If I were a betting man I’d put my shirt on that not happening any time soon, for one very good reason. Even the existence of a certificate of birth doesn’t 100% guarantee that the person holding it is who or what they say they are - it’s the first rule of forgery - if someone can make it someone can copy it. Can you imagine the law suits that’ll bog down every future election while each candidate is forced to jump through hoops to prove their status? I can almost hear the losing candidates now. “You’ve got a birth certificate - so what, that doesn’t prove anything - I demand a full investigation by congress and the supreme court and 35 witnesses to the birth.” -------------------------------- As far as Rod Blagojevich goes the guy’s a jerk, if all the stories are true, and the notion that he was just doing right by his family doesn’t make any sense at all as far as I can see. If looking after his family was uppermost in his mind he surely weighed the consequences of his actions and what impact getting caught would have on his family and if he did it doesn’t say much about the man that he went right ahead and did it anyway. "Desperate people do desperate things." I think desperation is a valid mitigating circumstance when it comes to taking something you need like medicine for a baby. I think the deciding factor for me personally, if I were playing Judge Dredd, would be whether I’d have given them what they stole if they’d have explained the circumstances and asked me to help. The young mother with a sick baby would be walking home with her medicine but someone like Rod wouldn’t be walking anywhere for a while. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
CHICAGO (Reuters) – President-elect Barack Obama's choice for White House chief of staff spoke to Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich's office about who the governor should appoint to replace Obama in the U.S. Senate, the Chicago Tribune reported on Saturday. The Tribune, citing sources, reported that contact between Obama's staff and the governor's administration about the Senate seat started days before the November 4 election. The governor has sole power to appoint a replacement for Obama. Emanuel called Harris with a list of names "acceptable" to Obama to fill the Senate vacancy, in conversations that were captured on court-approved wiretaps, the newspaper said. Obama officials on Saturday did not respond to requests for comment on the Chicago Tribune report. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081213/pl_nm/us_blagojevich_14 Not good news........why would Obama lie about it when it could be so easily uncovered? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I read somewhere that a couple of the State level election boards are now requiring presentation of actual birth certificates along with other supporting documentation proving that you are who you say you are and were born where you say you were born, Grinch. True, anything can be forged, but this way at least you make it much harder for the crooks than simply having them sign an affidavit. So that is at least a move in the right direction. I don't think he necessarily lied, Mike, but I only caught a glimpse of his clip on the news as I was passing through the living room and all I heard him say was that he did not have any contact with the governor's office, and had no idea what Blagojevich was up to. But if he did say that neither he nor anyone on his staff had any contact with the governor's office, well then I guess you could say that he either lied, or he just didn't know what his staff was doing. Not good news in either event. But it seems clear from Blagojevich's anger at Obama for not being willing to give anything but his appreciation for selecting someone from Obama's acceptable list, seems to put Obama in the clear of any wrongdoing in this 'pay to play' issue at least. Well, now come to think of it, after I typed all that out, he had to be lying if he presented a list initially and then said later that all he would give was his appreciation for a selection from that list. He had to know that Blagojevich was up to no good. So why would he lie about something that could be so easily uncovered? I don't know, but isn't it a crime not to report a felony? If he admits that he knew what Blagojevich was up to, then he would have to have contacted the authorities with that information or he would also be in trouble, or Rham would be, if he was the contact person and he had kept Obama in the dark about any illegal requests being made, and Rham was actually the one who said that only appreciation would be offered, unbeknownst to Obama. In which case it would be Rham who should get credit for not 'paying to play', but also the one obligated to notify the authorities. Or maybe Obama just didn't have enough time to think before he was asked the question, and his response didn't come out the way that it actually would have if he'd had a minute or two to think about it. Maybe he simply misspoke. Or maybe he's been a part of the Chicago political machine for so long he can't tell the truth from a lie anymore. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: What did he actually say Mike? If Obama said that none of his staff had any contact at all with Blagojevich then I agree, at best he’s an idiot and at worst a liar. His staff are paid to have contact with anyone and everyone at every level of government who has influence and they would probably have had daily contact with Blagojevich. |
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wranx Member Elite
since 2002-06-07
Posts 3689Moved from a shack to a barn |
"We the People" forgive our politicians all manner of indiscretion...provided they possess a certain smarmy charisma. Governor Begoneovich, no doubt, enjoyed such forgiveness for a while. And even now there are apologists for him supposing him to be mentally unbalanced as opposed to greedy, corrupt and criminal. "Office" equals "license" to virtually ALL politicians. The difference between Blago and the rest is merely a matter of degree. Very few use this license to serve the folks that gave them the office |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Grinch, Obama initially said that neither he or any members of his team had contact with Blago. That has now been amended to "contact but no attempt to influence." I don't say that Obama was mixed up in it but Emanuel gave Blago the list of candidates Obama wanted so one may assume that he got that list from Obama, which would indicate Obama knew that Emanuel would be giving it to Blago, which makes the "no team contact" remark by Obama false. As I said, Obama doesn't need this and should get it resolved as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to be headed in that direction.....and I hope Emanuel isn't too fond of his head. Pressure builds on Obama to release his Blagojevich contacts In case you're wondering about that list President-elect Obama promised a few days ago to release in "a few days" detailing all of his office's contacts with accused Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich about the vacant U.S. Senate seat, the Republican National Committee would like to fan your doubts. Saturday, as the governor met with a high-profile Chicago defense attorney, the RNC released a short videotape (see below) detailing some of Obama's connections to and statements about the governor, who is allegedly on FBI wiretaps trying to sell his nomination to the highest bidder. Both Obama and U.S. Atty. Patrick Fitzgerald have said there's no evidence of the ex-senator's involvement in the alleged political auction. And Obama has denied speaking to the governor or his office on the Senate vacancy. Democratic President-elect Barack Obama and Illinois fellow Democratic Governor Rod Blagojevich now accused of auctioning off Obama's vacant U.S. Senate seat in happier times But the Chicago Tribune reported Saturday that Obama's new White House chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, did indeed have contacts with the governor's office, providing a list of replacement nominees acceptable to Obama and then later adding one more. What's puzzled some people and raised suspicions among others is Emanuel's refusal to talk about it (reportedly physically pushing one reporter's tape recorder away and having a verbal altercation with another) and the delay on Obama's part in releasing the promised diary of contacts. From a practical point of view, if everything is above board, what's to hide? From a political communications and PR point of view, the atypically clumsy silence and delay creates doubts among even some Democrats, an information vacuum that opponents seek to fill with items like this video below and that has turned what could have been a one- or two-day state scandal story into nearly a week-long saga now involving a new national leader who promised to change the way the people's business is done. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/12/obama-rahm-blag.html Obama said Thursday he had never spoken to Blagojevich about the Senate vacancy and was "confident that no representatives" of his had engaged in any deal making over the seat with the governor or his team. He also pledged Thursday that in the "next few days," he would explain what contacts his staff may have had with the governor's office about the Senate vacancy. http://www.newsday.com/news/printedition/nation/ny-usrahm145965069dec14,0,445084.story |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I’ve read several reports where he said that he wasn’t involved in any shady deals, and a few more where he said that he didn’t believe that any of his staff were either, with a pledge to collate and release the details of all contacts. I haven’t read any reports where he said that his staff had no contact at all but if he did indeed say that then I’d have to agree with you, he’s obviously an idiot and not fit to be President. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
It seems that one of Obama's talents is creating information vacuums. It's becoming a theme. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Heh, I notice a recurring theme hereabouts too Denise  |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Mike, Obama's wife got a very nice raise once he hit political big time. That's the way it works here. . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Blago's father-in-law was a big-time alderman and, as things go there, that means he's very well off and paved the way for his son-in-law. We all know how things work there......knowing it, though, didn't keep one out of the Oval Office. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
"At the direction of the President-elect, a review of Transition staff contacts with Governor Blagojevich and his office has been conducted and completed and is ready for release. That review affirmed the public statements of the President-elect that he had no contact with the governor or his staff, and that the President-elect's staff was not involved in inappropriate discussions with the governor or his staff over the selection of his successor as US Senator. Also at the President-elect's direction, Gregory Graig, counsel to the Transition, has kept the US Attorney's office informed of this fact-gathering process in order to ensure our full cooperation with the investigation. In the course of those discussions, the US Attorney's office requested the public release of the Transition review be deferred until the week of December 22, in order not to impede their investigation of the governor. The Transition has agreed to this revised timetable for release." |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Excellent. It is also customary to include a link when quoting news items. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Rod Blagojevich expressed his initial priority as taking some of the financial pressure off of his family . . . Remember the Clintons left the Presidency basically broke because of legal expenses. Yes, Rod was stupid, but evil? I wonder if some can imagine what lenghts some men are willing to go to to preserve a certain lifestyle for their families. . . I know of one, who failing, took his own life. In Japan, so many middle managers, (not able to face the sense of disgrace, after losing their jobs, finding no other), killed themeselves that it lowered the numbers for life expectancy for the entire nation. It's easy to be brave when th only one to suffer the cost is yourself. It's different when the cost threatens your family. More than one despot has understood and used that. . . . . |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Perhaps, Balladeer, I was just paraphasing something I heard on Good Morning America. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
But didn't someone have to be in discussion with Blagojevich, Jennifer, for the presentation of the acceptable list from Obama by one of his staff, and then for Blagojevich to explode with anger on tape at Obama for being told by that person that nothing but appreciation would be forthcoming for a selection from that list? It seems logical to assume that Blajojevich requested something in exchange for considering someone from Obama's list in order to be told that nothing but appreciation would be given. It may not have been an inappropriate discussion on the part of the staff member, but certainly on Blogojevich's part, which makes it an inappropriate and an illegal discussion that should have been reported to the authorities by that staff person. Maybe the staff person did report it. At least I hope so. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Mike, Thank you for your open-minded thoughts about Obama at this point. It's good to see you putting politics aside and crossing your fingers. I too am crossing my fingers and hoping things will go well in this potentially difficult transition, and it's good to see you at your most generous here. Sincerely, Bob Kaven |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
My mistake, Jennifer. Normally, quotation marks used denote a quotation. Thanks for clearing it up. Thanks, Bob. The well-being of the country has always been my top concern, as I know it has yours, also. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "New York Assemblyman N. Nick Perry, the House Democratic whip, called Kennedy a "neatly packaged" candidate for the governor, who could bring in cash . . . Perry said Kennedy would also be "tremendously helpful" to Paterson . . ." http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2008/12/17/kennedy-kicks-senate-campaign-upstate-new -york/ . |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Denise, Having spoken with you before about Senator Obama's history, I know that we have discussed the matter of hospital confidentiality. Thus I was startled to find this statement under your signature earlier in this thread: quote: You were aware at that time that any hospital that revealed content of hospital records was open to lawsuit for violation of Federal Law. I've generally given the credit to the mothers, myself, and thought the hospitals were sort of secondary. Hospitals that release medical records are still open to lawsuit, near as I can understand it. I have been following your interesting discussion of Senator Obama's birth, and trying my best to stay out of it, respectfully. When you express shock that there is no hospital in Hawaii willing to breach medical ethics to help you make a rhetorical point, I believe you undermine your creditability. I suspect you could give me lessons in the details of HIPAA regulations. Sincerely, Bob Kaven |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I don't know, Bob, I thought births were a matter of public record and not a confidential medical detail or condition covered under HIPPA laws. But I could be wrong. In any event I don't think there would be a lawsuit from Obama if one of the hospitals claimed the distinction of being his birthplace. He might even offer to pay for the plaque if they wanted to erect one in honor of the event! |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Denise, Have hospitals released that information about [i]anybody[i] on their own post HIPAA? If I want a copy of my birth certificate, I must write to the appropriate county agency and send money. The county doesn't release the data on it's own because it feels like it, even if it is public information. Some certificates list the Hospital, some don't. The "public record" you mention suggests that the custodian of the information is not the hospital — which, as you know, is forbidden from disclosing patient information on penalty of prosecution — but the government, which has disclosed the information it has, at the request of Senator Obama. The fact that somebody has been a patient in a specific hospital or under care of a specific practitioner for whatever reason is confidential unless appropriate legal steps are taken. I cannot even say that somebody has been in therapy with me without a signed release of information form sitting in front of me or included in the person's case file. In Obama's case, the Birth certificate was released by Obama and was examined by independent fact checkers. It was also examined by the people who employed the gentleman who authored a book airing charges about Senator Obama's birth and other charges, a Mr. Jerome Corsi, I believe his name was; and Mr. Corsi's publishers found the birth certificate authentic as well. I will try to get the reference for you. It goes without saying that they kept their acknowledgements as limited as humanly possible, but I find that understandable. I was happy to see that they were gracious enough to acknowledge an error, and hope that I am as gracious with my own. If the suit goes forward and isn't thrown out of court, then it will go through whatever testing needs to be done in the future. Sincerely, Bob Kaven The reference I mentioned above: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=73214 You'll note that the World Net Daily folks attribute the non-release of primary hospital data to Hawaii State Law, while I attributed it to HIPAA. In either case, however, the legal barrier is there. Faulting the Hospitals would be unfair. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Bob, two different documents are being talked about. No one has seen the Certificate of Birth that has the hospital and doctor's signature. What has supposedly been seen and verified by factcheck is the Certification of Live Birth. If HIPPA prevents the hospital from even announcing a birth from 47 years ago, that's fine. I didn't think the law went that far. I still think it's strange that even Obama hasn't disclosed where he was born. We will soon have a President whose place of birth is a State Secret! That gives me the creeps! |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Denise, Show me an example of these easily acquired and apparently legal public source documents from Hawaii that you are talking about from anybody since Senator Obama's birth so that I might understand what I should be looking for when I see it, please, Denise. I know what Senator Obama's Birth Certificate looks like because it looks like mine. Were somebody to ask me to produce something more complex, I'd have no idea where to look, and would have no need to do so, since that particular document has been sufficient for all my needs, including passport. I can understand why you might wish to see a person's regular documentation to be clear about citizenship before voting for them as President. This was not your intention, however, since you did not wish to vote for the man as President. You were a clear supporter of Senator McCain, whomever you actually voted for. You tried to reduce the chances of other people voting for Senator Obama by putting forward an argument discounting his legitimacy. Even now that he has won the Presidency, you try to find a way to prevent him from taking office. Ordinary documentation is not enough for you. You require special documentation be presented under extraordinary circumstances to extraordinary authority, which may or may not satisfy you. The actual circumstance under which the actual facts will be settled are unlikely, I suspect, to meet with your conditions. I can't ask you to give up your quest for justice. While we differ in our choice of windmills, we seem to share a fondness for jousting. I guess I have to encourage you in it, though I disagree with the target here, and wish you the best of luck in a task that I find personally wrongheaded. Your Grandkids must be seriously lucky. I can't imagine you would devote attention like this to politics without lavishing ten times that amount on them. Yours in utter puzzlement, Bob Kaven |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I will be seeing the little buggers tomorrow night actually! I don't live as close to them as I did a few months back, but when I get to spend time with them it's wonderful! You can go to the State of Hawaii website for a clarification of the two differnt documents, and the differences, and even why one is preferable (or even sometimes required in some instances) to the other under certain circumstances. Have no fear Bob. Your man will be sworn in, qualified or not! I am not able to determine the outcome of an election, much less an inauguration! Don't mind me. I'm just a bit quirky in that I think we should abide by our Constitution, and with so much mounting evidence that casts doubt that Obama is a natural born citizen, I just think he owes it to the Constitution, that he will be swearing to uphold, and to the citizens, to show that he actually is qualified. And as I said before, I'm not asking him to show ME anything. Just show somebody in authority the official Hawaiin vault copy of his birth certificate that lists the hospital and has the doctor's signature. [This message has been edited by Denise (12-19-2008 12:01 AM).] |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I had a great time with my grandkids last night! We played Go Fish, Twister (Abigail wisely designated me to be in charge of spinning the wheel!), played with Emily's doll house, colored in their Christmas coloring books and watched iCarly on TV! They cried, literally, in protest, when it was time for bed. And then I went home and passed out! An 18-hour day is a bit taxing, and more so the older I get!  |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Nowhere in your Constitution does it say that a President elect must present his birth certificate, it says he must be a natural born citizen and then lays out the procedure for challenging his status if it's in doubt. You keep banging on about abiding by the Constitution while at the same time demanding that everyone should ignore it - which do you want Denise? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I'm not suggesting anyone ignore it, Grinch. What I am asking, in light of all the circumstancial evidence that Obama may not be qualified under the Constitution, is that one of the controlling legal authorities, and at this stage it looks like that would be Congress, look into the matter to resolve the doubt, which in this case would involve them requesting a look at his birth certificate, and any other documents that would shed light on the question of his eligibility. How else would they resolve that doubt? Then, after they have done that, they could go forward and either ratify the Electoral College vote, or raise an objection to ratification, based on the outcome of their investigation. I don't see how my requesting that is advocating ignoring the Constitutional process. I am actually requesting that the Constitutional process be followed. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: The Constitutional process to challenge Obama’s citizenship at this point in time is for two members of Congress to present a written challenge to the first electoral college vote in favour of Obama. At that point Congress will install Biden as President then retire to consider the challenge. There is nothing in your Constitution that demands that they consider a birth certificate as evidence either way or that the President elect must present one. quote: If it ever gets that far they’ll interpret the Constitution and make their own minds up, and then it will probably be challenged and put before the Supreme Court who’ll do the same. Remember McCain? His birth certificate proved that through a technicality he wasn’t a natural born citizen but they ignored the certificate and interpreted the Constitution and confirmed that he was eligible. Why shouldn’t the same rule apply to Obama or is it only applicable to Republicans, would you be demanding that the letter of law laid out in the constitution be upheld if McCain was the President elect? You’re asking for something that isn’t in the Constitution Denise while waving a patriotic flag and claiming that anything less would be unconstitutional, which seems a bit hypocritical from where I’m sitting. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
What am I asking for that is unconstitutional, Grinch? I'm asking those who have sworn to uphold the Constitution to do so. I can't for the life of me see how that makes me hypocritical. When they 'retire to consider the challenge', wouldn't it be prudent that they review his documentation in order to make an informed decision? It isn't within their scope to interpret the Constitution. That rests with the Supreme Court. It has been argued by some that McCain was actually natural born in that both his parents were U.S. citizens at his birth and that he was born on a military base, which is considered U.S. soil. But, if his candidacy were challenged on that issue I wouldn't have a problem with letting the process go forward for a Constitutional challenge on the issue. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: The Constitution has within it a process to challenge a Presidents status, for some strange reason I don’t quite understand you want Obama to short circuit the system just to satisfy your doubt - it doesn’t work like that. Your Constitution says that Congress will confirm his status when the votes of the electoral college are presented. Why not uphold that part of the Constitution Denise, instead of demanding the right to something that you aren’t afforded under the Constitution. In fact why not wave your patriotic flag for Obama and his right to due process afforded him under the Constitution? Why not fight for his right NOT to present his birth certificate when it’s his Constitutional right not to do so? I don’t think you really care about the Constitution Denise, if you did you wouldn’t be demanding that someone give up their rights under it just to satisfy your curiosity. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
You are missing my point Grinch. I am saying that in light of all of the red flags about whether or not he is Constitutionally eligible, someone in authority should look into it and make a determination, using the process outlined in the Constitution, to insure that the Constitutional requirements are met. Is it not my Constitutional right to petition those in our government to investigate a possible violation of the Constitution when they are charged with upholding it? And Congress can confirm OR object to the Electoral College vote Grinch. They have that option. So my requesting them to investigate, and then object if they find evidence that he isn't qualified, is in no way a disrespect of the process. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I’m not missing your point Denise I understand what you’re saying completely. You want to force someone to do something he doesn’t have to do. You think it’s a good idea to bypass the process laid out in the Constitution. You want to take away somebody’s rights in the misguided belief that it somehow upholds your rights. You want to uphold one part of the Constitution by tearing up another part. It’s your constitutional right to petition your representative in government to challenge Obama’s status in writing when the first vote for him is cast by the electoral college, but that’s as far it goes Denise. You don’t get to demand that someone looks at his birth certificate before then, or even after then. Nor can you force them to act outside the provisions of the constitution and do anything before the first vote is cast. If you don’t think Obama is a natural born citizen why not write to your representative and ask him\her to make a formal challenge. I’d love to hear the response - my money’s on a polite but definite no. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Grinch, our representatives are not a part of the Electoral College. It is a 3 step process: 1. The General Election 2. The Electoral College Vote 3. Ratification, in Congress, by our representatives, of the Electoral College Vote. No, you have no idea what I am saying, in that you keep asserting the same things over and over again that I have already addressed. So I won't waste any more of my time or your time in the endeavor. You would have lost your money, by the way. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Pot - kettle - black? As long as you keep asserting that Obama should show someone his birth certificate or that an investigation should take place I’ll keep reminding you that neither are part of the process as laid out in your Constitution. One member of the Senate and one member of the house of Representatives need to present, in writing, a challenge to Obama’s status. My money is fairly safe Denise because nobody in their right mind is going to do that, for the simple reason that when the dust settles and the subsequent vote is counted their political career, and possibly their political party will be damaged beyond repair. The risks are too high and any possible benefits are way too small. If I’m wrong you have my permission to tell me you told me so when Obama isn’t inaugurated. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I didn't say that he wouldn't be inaugurated, Grinch. And I didn't say that anyone in Congress would actually cast a vote in objection. That wasn't what you said you would be willing to wager your money on though. I still don't agree with your contention that petitioning our representatives to investigate and cast a vote in objection, if after they investigate they find he is not eligible, is unconstitutional. They are merely being petitioned to utilize the constitutional process. They couldn't cast a vote in objection on unsubstantiated rumors. They would have to have an investigation and any investigation into his citizenship status would of necessity require them to subpoena his birth documents and any other records that would shed light on that status, since it would be his citizenship status that is in question. I know most of them think they walk on water, but they aren't powerful enough to make a determination without an examination of the evidence, I wouldn't think! But I do agree that's not likey to happen. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen, though. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I think you’ll find that this is what I said: quote: My money’s safe unless you can find a representative stupid enough to make a formal challenge. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Your money is not safe since I did not get a polite or definite no! Politicians, more often than not, tend to say one thing and then do as they please. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
So you got a yes! Which idiot did you write to? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I didn't say I got a yes either, Grinch. I got a letter from one of them thanking me for my concerns, as he is always appreciative of hearing the concerns of his constituents and to take their concerns under advisement. Right to the trash can, I'm sure! From the other two I never heard anything, not even an acknowledgement of receipt of my letter. A fine example of representative government at its finest! But you lose by virtue of the fact that I did not receive a 'polite but definite no' from any of them. Now how much money did I win? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Sounds fairly polite to me. quote: And if that’s not a definite no I’ll eat hay with a donkey! |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Polite, yes, a definite no, no, not according to the letter itself, which is what you had wagered on. (I am a literalist, if you haven't discovered that yet!) And I can only assume that it went straight to the trash can. I have no way of confirming that. So start munching away! |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Are you sure. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Yep! |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Denise, If there is a legal challenge, Obama will reply. If not. you should pardon me, but he should not respond beyond what he has done. It is one thing to cooperate, it's another to make yourself a target and to cooperate in the process. I haven't seen any evidence that anything he might do would stem your hostility toward the man, nor the hostility of those who seem to enjoy bringing these sorts of charges. This sort of thing is what he will have to face throughout his administration, and it will skip about from one set of accusations to another, predictably. Right wing rage will not abate. The smartest thing that Obama can do is hire a terrific team of lawyers, and have them deliver the absolute minimum satisfaction to any of these attempts at character assassination as it it possible to give. I don't mean he should engage in Schadenfreude at the discomfort of those who try to attack him, merely that he treat it as part of doing Presidential business. About policy, he should be absolutely transparent. Heaven knows he'll have trouble enough with that, what with folks on both the left and the right having legitimate bones to pick with his policy and procedure decisions. He has a history of infuriating the left as well as the right going back to his days running the Law Review at Harvard, and with his request for the California Minister who helped Proposition 8 repeal gay marriage out here to give an invocation (at his swearing in? at some other important event?) he's already managed to upset some of his gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgendered allies. Republican lite, in some ways, but I think a decent enough guy, even if you don't. As for the New Zealand quotes, I find the photo-copies poorly reproduced on the internet to be slightly unconvincing in and of themselves. Beyond that, I've seem mistakes made in high school newspapers and in The New York Times about details like that, and so have you. Also, Obama ran as a democrat in that election, in case it slipped your notice, and to imagine that he was a secret member of another Party at the same time leads us right back into the Communist witch-hunting that darn near destroyed the Republican party for fifteen years in presidential Politics and much longer in Congressional politics. If you really want to go there, fine. I think it hurts the Republicans far worse than it does Obama, though, because it sounds very much like Joe McCarthy looking for secret fellow travelers. I'm a Democrat myself, and much of The New Party platform as I saw it quoted seemed pretty sensible to me. As does Bernie Sanders, for that matter. Obama's interests seem much further to the right to me. Nowhere near your neck of the woods, mind you, or Mike's, but actually closer to the center of things. Good luck, though, Denise. And I was happy to hear you'd had some time with the grandkids, and that you'd had the energy to keep up with them at least cameo appearance style. All my best, Bob Kaven |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Obama has always struck me as someone with something to hide from the very beginning. And his actions in response to the natural born question, sparked after his grandmother and half-sister and half-brother in Kenya said he was born in Kenya, have only increased my distrust of him as an open and above-board person. If they were fibbing out of a sense of pride, and created a tempest in a teapot, then he could have easily nipped it in the bud by producing evidence to the contrary. He doesn't have to hire lawyers if the issue does proceed to a legal challenge. He already has hired them, three law firms worth of them. I was never taken in by his smooth rhetoric, in which he said absolutely nothing, that caused the masses to swoon and journalists to get either tingling feelings up their leg, or to confess with wide-eyed awe that they found it hard to remain objective in his presence. Due to a practice known as Fusion, Obama ran as a Democrat and as a New Party candidate and garnered the votes from both that enabled him to beat his opponent. The practice is now against the law in most states, including Illinois, but still allowed in a few. I am not hostile to the man. I just don't trust him. And I don't agree with a single policy that he has advocated so far, and I will stand against and speak out against policies that he advances with which I disagree, as I'm sure most conservatives will do. I wouldn't characterize that as attacking the man, though, just his policies. And thank you, Bob. Yes, I had a wonderful time with the grandkids. And on Christmas I will get to see all of them! Controlled chaos is a good description of our holiday gatherings! |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-kass-burris-31-dec31,0,1367315.column Well, 2009 will start out entertaining . . . . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
It sure looks that way! |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. So now he's gone And who then will remember him absent bored media after . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
He may show up on Jeopardy one day, John |
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