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Iraq....so what's happening?
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Iraq....so what's happening? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA 
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Western Journalists in Iraq Stage Pullback of Their Own BAGHDAD -- The number of foreign journalists in Baghdad is declining sharply, a media withdrawal that reflects Iraq's growing stability and the financial strains faced by some news organizations. In a stark indication of the changing media focus here, the number of journalists traveling with American forces in Iraq has plummeted in the past year. U.S. military officials say they "embedded" journalists 219 times in September 2007. Last month, the number shrank to 39. Of the dozen U.S. newspapers and newspaper chains that maintained full-time bureaus in Baghdad in the early years of the war, only four are still permanently staffed by foreign correspondents. CBS and NBC no longer keep a correspondent in Baghdad year-round. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/10/10/ST2008101002991.html Safer Iraq draws foreign investors By Charles Levinson, USA TODAY BAGHDAD — Iraq is poised to receive a flood of foreign investment, thanks to improved security. More than $74 billion in projects have been submitted for government approval in just the past five months, according to Iraq's state investment regulator. The investors include companies from the U.S., Europe, and Gulf Arab states. Their proposals all involve sectors other than oil, including a $13 billion new port for the southern city of Basra, several hotels and thousands of housing units nationwide, says Ahmed Ridha, the chairman of Iraq's National Investment Commission. http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2008-09-09-iraqinvestment_N.htm US Deaths in Iraq Approach Record Low posted: 20 DAYS 10 HOURS AGOcomments: 234 filed under: Iraq News October may wind up being the first month of the Iraq war when not a single U.S. soldier will have died in combat in Baghdad. In the whole country, there have been 13 GIs killed in combat and non-combat incidents this month. If there are no more deaths, the toll would tie July for the lowest monthly U.S. death toll in the war. http://news.aol.com/world/iraq Don't waste your time looking for these stories on your evening news.......it's positive. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
11/20/08 CBS/AP: 2 U.S. Troops Charged In Murder Of Iraqis Two U.S. soldiers have been charged by the military with conspiracy to commit premeditated murder relating to the shooting deaths of four Iraqi prisoners in Baghdad in early 2007 in what was allegedly a retaliation killing. AFP Mosul, where Iraq's insurgency still rages The ear-deafening blasts of car bombs targetting US or Iraqi security force patrols shatter the calm daily in Mosul, the northern city which military commanders say is the last urban bastion of Al-Qaeda in Iraq. 11/20/08 CNN: Iraq raid kills suspect in kidnap-slaying of GI An Iraqi slain last week in a raid has been positively identified as a notorious militant suspected in the 2004 kidnapping of a U.S. soldier and the June killings of three U.S. Marines, the U.S. military said Thursday. 11/20/08 ABC: Contractors Could Face Charges in Iraq Courts They've largely escaped legal scrutiny. But U.S. contractors could soon be subject to Iraqi law under the Status of Forces Agreement being considered by the Iraqi parliament this week. 11/20/08 Reuters: Gunmen storm house, kill 5 family members near Kut Gunmen stormed a house and killed five members of the same family, including two children, on Wednesday near the city of Kut, 150 km (95 miles) southeast of Baghdad, police said. 11/20/08 Reuters: Six militants killed, three villagers wounded near Dour Six militants were killed and three villagers wounded on Wednesday during clashes between a local U.S.-backed neighbourhood patrol and militants in a village near the town of Dour, 150 km (95 miles) north of Baghdad, police said. 11/20/08 Reuters: Car bomb wounds 3 guards in central Baghdad A bomb attached to a car belonging to presidential guards wounded three of the guards in central Baghdad's Karrada district, police said. 11/20/08 Reuters: Five bodies found in Mosul, one found in Shwan The bodies of five people, including two women, were found bearing gun shot wounds on the outskirts of the city of Mosul...Police found the body of a woman with gun shot wounds in the town of Shwan, near Kirkuk... 11/19/08 AFP: Hardline Iraqi MPs shout down US pact in parliament Lawmakers loyal to firebrand Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr shouted down the Iraqi parliament's second reading on Wednesday of a military pact allowing US troops to remain until 2011. 11/19/08 Reuters: Five people wounded by roadside bomb in Baghdad Two roadside bombs exploded in quick succession, wounding five people in central Baghdad's Karrada district, police said 11/19/08 Reuters: Iraqi army kills 3 suspected militants, detains 23 others The Iraqi army killed 3 suspected militants and detained 23 others in different parts of Iraq during the past 24 hours, the defense ministry said in a statement. 11/19/08 Reuters: 3 Iraqi soldiers wounded in separate incidents in Mosul A suicide car bomber hit an Iraqi army patrol, wounding two soldiers in eastern Mosul, police said...A roadside bomb wounded one Iraqi soldier in western Mosul, 390 km (240 miles) north of Baghdad, police said. US MILITARY DEATHS IN IRAQ NOV 2008 - 11 OCT 2007 - 14 TOTAL - 4201 |
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threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
I study war constantly. Do you have any idea how LOW 14 deaths in a month is for a war that has raged on for 4 years? or 4200 casualties when measured against the length of the war? Viet Nam had US casualties of 58,000 for 11 years, or 5,000 A YEAR in a similar guerilla style war. The 3-year Korean War had 58,000 deaths, or 19,000 US casualties per year. I say this, not to diminish ANY death, but to show an appropo' comparison to other recent wars and their figures. Your figures shown mistakenly include citizen casulties and deaths inflicted by both insurgents and non-US combat troops. Hussein's reign of terror actually killed more people than any period of the war. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Thank you, Jennifer, for proving my point. Threadbare, I agree. |
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threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
RELATED TOPIC: Why Muslims Are Calling Obama a 'House Negro': Apparently every Obama supporter was shocked that Al Qaeda's #2 man: Al Zawahiri called Obama the 'House Negro' and referenced Malcolm X videos. I wasn't. In a strict Islamic creed, people who are born Muslim, but who purposely decide NOT to stay Muslim are called Apostates: the lowest class of human in the Muslim dictionary. They see Obama as someone who rejected Islam, and is therefore an enemy. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
"I study war constantly. Do you have any idea how LOW 14 deaths in a month is for a war that has raged on for 4 years?" How long? Think you missed a chapter somewhere. "Hussein's reign of terror actually killed more people than any period of the war." Since you can't possibly know how many Iraqi's have been killed in the war, your statement has no merit. I'm sure knowing the number of American troops killed is low compared to other wars will be a great consolation to their grieving families. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I seriously doubt that these good folks are using the racist terminology included in your post. http://www.mafo2008.com/ I'm at a loss to understand why you felt it necessary to quote a racial slur. |
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Pantheress Member
since 2008-11-02
Posts 215Queensland, Australia |
Some one placed weapons, in our children's hands, and sent them off to war, Stand for your country, stand and be a man. I bow my head and pray, may every mothers baby, be coming home to stay, may the earth not drink, on our innocent children, nor the boy sent off to shoot, tonight.. let us rejoice in human beings, not the colour of our skin, nor the religion that we're in.. Or the country we are kin. beneath the outer exterior, we all have hearts that weep, This is so sad for a society, that boasts the most civilized beings, in the free world. Do we need to kill each other to be heard, is the boy/man/country with the flashest toys, the bully in the group? Do we not have reason and compromise in our worlds? I don't have answers, or even good ideas, But I do know, to main and kill each other, is not the answer we should seek. do we require the suffering? my heart is screaming out, please don't hurt them, please let them be free, just take a piece of me.. ITS NOT THE ANSWER, the world should employ or seek, Forgive my interruption, may you all sleep well tonight, sending Golden healing light, for your blanket to wrap you, warm an tight.. Go in peace, accept and respect each other, for all their differences, please don't hurt another, surely there's another way,sigh.. we're not judge or jurors.. I feel that's Gods job to keep. I bow my head in shame, I don't know how to help, the children that we main.. Forgive my ignorance and sin.. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Actually, that "racial slur" has been on the news all day. Apparently they felt the need to quote it. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
If it's been in the news all day, what's the point of repeating something so vile and hateful in this forum? |
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threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
why quote it? because of the context, Jennifer. They hate him now, simply because he is an ex-Muslim. I want you to know who you are dealing with, during the Obama administration, and what the context was. It SHOULDN'T be sugar-coated. It was also an ironic twist on the religion that Obama went to: a fairly radical version of African-American Christianity that uses Malcolm X rhetoric in its own sermons. For them to use the 'House N' term was one of the more famous lines that Malcolm X used to enflame hatred within his own group (as in: Don't be a 'HN'). In my opinion, it was a case of 'what goes around, comes around." I do know a few families with troops in the war. They ARE very aware of the low casualty rate: very aware, and hate to disappoint ya, but they are very grateful for all the technological advances that have made it nearly 5 times as safe to fight now, as it was 30 years ago. I know I know...that's good news.....and hardly worth reporting. So are you saying that the deaths of 4000 soldiers are MORE important than the lives of 200,00 that lived? You see, we look at things differently, you and I: you look at ONLY in terms of loss of life. I look at the tremendous improvement in SAVING LIVES for soldiers during wartimes. I cheer the fact that they are 5 times safer than at any time in our US history. I am more concerned for the 200,00 than for the 4,000. That's just me. Always looking for the silver lining. [This message has been edited by Ron (11-21-2008 06:54 AM).] |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I see what you're doing now. You're trying to tell us we're really in for it now because a terrorist believes Obama is a murtadd. You better alert Fox News so they can crank the threat level up to red. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Just so you know, no matter how you spin it, there's no silver lining to war. |
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threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
Wasn't just one terrorist: it was AlQ's main spokesman speaking for AlQ, our number 1 enemy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murtadd Any of you, please read this post to fully understand how the Radical Islams REALLY feel about Obama. I think you will be suprised at what their punishments would be if Obama was their fellow countryman. |
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threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
No Silver lining to war? Here are your exact words: "I'm sure knowing the number of American troops killed is low compared to other wars will be a great consolation to their grieving families." So you are saying that the tech advances are NO consolation to the other 200,000 families? That's not a silver lining? Say that with a family member on the line. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
As far as terrorists not liking Obama, I'd be more concerned if they did. We weren't discussing tech advances. You edited one of your posts and randomly tossed that into the mix. But now that you've brought it up, what a nightmare it must be for families who lost a loved one to know that if the troops had all had fully armored vehicles, kevlar vests, ceramic plates, proper helmets, lives could have been saved and the horrific injuries our troops suffered could have been prevented. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: So what? quote: And again, your point is? |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Actually, threadbear, I think they were substantially safer before they were sent in to find WMD? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
True enough, Ron. A lot more soldiers were a lot safer before being sent to Nam, too, as you well know. Of course, no one raked Kennedy or Johnson over the coals for that one. War is always dangerous to one's health. As far as terrorists not liking Obama, I'd be more concerned if they did. Interesting to see, Jennifer, that you were very concerned about the possibility of Kerry beating Bush out of the presidency. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
"no one raked Kennedy or Johnson over the coals for that one." Truth factor - 0 |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
"Interesting to see, Jennifer, that you were very concerned about the possibility of Kerry beating Bush out of the presidency." By 2004 Bush had proven to be such a total disaster as President, I probably would have voted for just about anyone instead of him. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
You know, when I heard that slur being used on the news, I decided to extract something positive out of something vile. So threadbear, it's not strictly a Muslim term. Aside from the Muslim definition of that racial term, there are other countries that also use it to define ANYONE who provides domestic assistance: Housekeeping, house sitting, eldercare, etc. No matter what color they are. The term is a weird cultural slant and though I don't find it appealing, I can't so much redefine it as I can accept it on my own terms. Meaning: I hope Obama CLEANS HOUSE on the hill and makes history doing so with more success than anyone has ever had. I'd hope that for any person taking up the task with all the dirt present. |
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threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
I think two things need to be pointed out here: 1) That fanatic Muslims do not include Obama as 'one of their own' even though he was Muslim for 15 minutes in his life. 2) That the term House N was just another racial epitaph that fundamental Islams frequently use. It was used intentionally, not for the US's ears, but for their own Muslim ears. It was meant to tell fellow Arabs NOT to trust Obama (strictly because he deliberately chose not to continue being a Muslim.) When looking at ANY Islamic fundamental press release, one must determine who exactly their target audience is. Not easy to tell all the time, but they are masters of propaganda, and many of their own Arab brothers only get select news. Freedom of information is a myth in most Arab states. Many of the countries blank out certain internet sites, and citizens can't even access them (ie, pro-Republican site, pro-democracy site). The impact on their own folks on selected news is much greater than ours here. We get 1000's of possible news sources in the US while Iran may only have access to just a few, especially if they are not internet-connected. Word of mouth news is still the most used news source for outside of the major cities in the Middle East. Playing to the audience. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Threadbear I really don't understand what the point of your points is? What are your conclusions? and: quote: So what? quote: And again, your point is? |
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threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
What is the point of commenting on what the AlQ leader said of Obama? First, we are entering a new 4-8 period of Presidency- one that will not have the postiive results that Dem's expect at least in the area of Middle East detente. I am saying that as long as we talk to normal Muslims, everything is cool. But if the US under Obama is expected to solve some Middle East crisis (such as Palestine vs. Israel or Iran vs. Israel, or Afghanistan war) we will not get cooperation from radical elements of Muslim. We may even be hated MORE under Obama by the fringe element than under G.Bush. Hard to believe, but these folks are very predictable in their extreme hatred: why? because they cut NO slack. If Obama is an apostate, Muslims will use this as a rallying point that may make the situations worse rather than better. Also, I think it is high time that the Left in this country start evaluating their enemy and calling him/them 'enemy.' I believe they have dismissed many of the threats by AlQ when it served their interests to do so, and used the war and the threat against soldiers when it also best served their political opin. So did the Republicans, but in a much different way. I believe they have a firmer grip on the reality of a threat. Finally, there have been several attempts on AMerican soil by fanatics since 9-11, but none have succeeded, largely because they have been small fringe groups and not the huge body of AlQ or Hamas radicals. I am saying that Muslim perception of American naiivity has had historic and tragic consequences when a Dem President is perceived to be either weak or not to be trusted. The 9-11 attack was setup and staged prior to Bush's administration, so it wasn't an attack on Bush's weakness, but rather it was perpetrated to react to Clinton's weak responses to the USS Cole and other terrorists acts during his administration. He merely slapped the drunk, and any barfly knows not to do that. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Are you folks actually upset that the very extreme muslims don't like Obama? Or at least appear not to? At what point were you expecting that they would? Did you actually believe your own propaganda that Obama was a secret Muslim double agent or something? Obama, hopefully, will be an American President, with all the rights and privileges he's entitled to from Islamic extremists. You think he should be running and winning a popularity contests with them or something? Of course they dislike him. Unlike you, they actually think he's got America's best interests at heart, and that makes them a bit angry to start off with and, well, sort of ready to insult the guy. Gee, you seem to have something in common. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Threadbear, Which exactly were those attempts at terrorist attacks. I remember a lot of hoopla about arrests, and then a lot of quiet dropping of charges and red-faced walking away from the table when charges couldn't be proved or proved to be trumped up. I have certainly been wrong before, but which attempts are these that you're talking about? Sincerely, Bob Kaven |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Ok, let's see if I'm getting this correctly. You feel that the American people made a mistake in appointing Obama because this will annoy the very radical Muslims and make it harder to negotiate a peace settlement in the Middle East? Is that what you are saying? |
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threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
Moonbeam, no, not exactly. I've already said, in about 3 different ways, what I think the significance of this statement is. I don't believe the American people made a mistake in electing Obama. He is who he is, and that's not all bad or good. I do believe, however, that people are too accepting of the power of Obama to change things. First off, he won't be able to change the economic woes. They were and are caused by ALL of us, from each field of money usage, and until we ALL change our buying/spending habits and dependance on 401k's, credit cards, etcs, NO president can change the situation of filling in the hole we have dug for ourselves. If the habits of the American's don't change, neither will the economic crisis. I heard far too many people brag that Obama will have world-support, and that's just not true in the Middle East environment. I am also speculating that another Jimmy Carter-type attack will test Obama's mettle soon into the administration. I have frequently wondered if the 9-11 attack's timing had more to do with testing a President's reaction than it did with a retaliation effort. I think that when terrorists, of any kind, see a weakness, they are drawn to it, like moths, in an effort to exploit it. Obama has such a weakness (at least in their eyes.) I don't know whether I am warning people, or just pointing out the foundation in which the future 4 years will be laid. It isn't enough simply to look at the events as they happen, day to day. It is totally necessary to look at each related event, and see the whole picture and use them in order to see the foreshadowing. The United States hasn't used information wisely in the past, and the Left was correct in saying that Bush didn't interpret the data correctly on Iraq, in many aspects. What do we, as a nation have to do? Study: see the whole picture: learn the enemies motivations; be honest on our own weaknesses and lastly: know they WILL be exploited by terrorists simply because they can't overwhelm us technologically or in sheer numbers...yet. One of the most stupid things the United States has done, and keeps on doing, is: trying to equate Islamic fanaticism in OUR TERMS or perceptions. There is nothing equatable in our life. We Can't and DON'T see their motivations because of this blind-spot. Until the past 7 years, Americans have essentially disregarded ALL of the aspects of Islamic culture (except for the Palest/Israel conflict, and in many cases didn't look any farther in understanding Middle East people.) Now, especially, it is critical that we educate ourselves on what the veiled rhetoric means when AlQ leaders spout their hatred. Americans have remained blissfully ignorant for decades on what is exactly happening in the Middle East, and the isolationist attitude comes with a terrible cost. Obama is not the problem, nor is he the solution to our national woes. We are the problem, we are the solution. There is little one man can do to change physically to fix the crisises we face. His greatest tool in his arsenal is not bills he will submit, but rather, his optimism itself that MAY change perceptions and help us make our own smart decisions that across-the-board will have a positive effect in solving dilemmas of our own making. We blame Congress, we blame Bush, but almost ALL of the problems we face nationally are of our own making. We need a speaking voice of reason to unite the citizen's actions, not the governments actions, to fix the threadbear holes in our society that we have gradually let get eroded away. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I don't believe the American people made a mistake in electing Obama. He is who he is, and that's not all bad or good. I do believe, however, that people are too accepting of the power of Obama to change things. First off, he won't be able to change the economic woes. They were and are caused by ALL of us, from each field of money usage, and until we ALL change our buying/spending habits and dependance on 401k's, credit cards, etcs, NO president can change the situation of filling in the hole we have dug for ourselves. If the habits of the American's don't change, neither will the economic crisis. >>>Can't argue with any of that I agree with all of it. I heard far too many people brag that Obama will have world-support, and that's just not true in the Middle East environment. >>>This, on the other hand, is a ridiculous statement. Earlier you implied that a few radicals would hate Obama. Frankly, I think there would be something wrong if they didn't hate him. But to suggest that because these same radicals hate him means that he won't have broad "world support" is crazy. >>>Once you get away from your apparent fixation that the election of Obama was a bad thing because it infuriates radicals you say some quite sensible things, as you did in the remainder of your reply just now, much of which I agree with. |
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threadbear Senior Member
since 2008-07-10
Posts 817Indy |
If I sound jaded against Obama, it is a fear that most Americans and the media were duped into voting for someone with a good speaking voice. I look at his voting record; his lack of partisan reach in his Senator career; his isolationist religious views; his friendships. All of these scream: LOOK AT ME AND EVALUATE, but hardly anyone did. You probably won't agree, but I think the very thing that we did to get ourselves in this economic mess is the very same philosophy that got Obama elected: shallowness, willing to be duped (we were sold a bill of goods real estate and 401K's were gold, ie) all the back of 'charisma', and G*d knows that 'charismatic only leaders' have been world problem children. If people are optimisitic, so be it, and more power to them. Hope is like laughter: it's good for the soul. Personally, I will remain cautious until I actually see Obama do something, or until people realize they are max-credited out, and that we should quit trying to make the government solve our own problems of caving into our wants, and not our true needs. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: quote: I think you need to be clearer or more honest, it's difficult to have a serious debate when you can't seem to get the basics straight. quote: Ahh. I see what you're saying. You want your politicians to be "evaluated" in the same way as you should (and I agree with you people didn't) evaluate stocks and investments? I'm not sure this is the best way to elect a leader, I think going with your intuition and heart is important, but perhaps you have a slight point. And I certainly agree with your last sentence. The populace of the western world are becoming spoilt brats, pushed in that direction by the media and governments I might add. The problem is that governments are now too scared of the political fallout to say "no, enough is enough, you can't have any more toys - live within your means". As I said to someone the other day, if this carries on, within 10 years we'll either be owned by China or back in a pre-industrial society. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear folks, I see that threadbear and moonbeam have an interesting exchange going. Consider this parenthetical, then, because I've heard Mike talk a lot about "the surge," and the success of the surge, as though the surge was what was responsible for saving us from a bad scene. I thought that this article might be worth checking out by Bob Woodward in the Washington Post. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/07/AR2008090701847.html It seems to make more sense of the situation than Mike's explanation, without totally tossing Mike's thinking away. And of course, even if everything has become wonderful in Iraq, something of which I remain deeply skeptical, we are still stuck with a mess of our creation than needs to be rectified in some sense or another. It's as Colin Powell said about the place — you break it, you fix it. We seem to have the first part down pretty well, and I think the Marshall plan worked well after WWII for the second part, but we're a bit behind the curve since then. Sorry to interrupt. Sincerely, Bob Kaven |
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