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This sickens me
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This sickens me |
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Susan Caldwell Member Rara Avis
since 2002-12-27
Posts 8348Florida 
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http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i0obdVKtwUqMG6gEUqc6mnjat9hAD90U9A900 How the hell does this happen? "too bad ignorance isn't painful" |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Because we are losing our innate sense, m'friend. We are not, and really never have been, in a situation where we should ever wait for the government to help us. We should rely on our inner instincts, but now we are told to "sit and wait - help will come." I disagree with that philosophy. I'm thinking that our own serenity will come in with some facts and figures, but I cannot believe you are really surprised by this announcement. When world shattering experiences happen, and to my own ignorance, I'm going to say by "natural causes", one should not be surprised at anything, but react accordingly, as each and every person still has the capability to do so; and if we see those who cannot react, then we need to be humane, and help those who cannot help themselves. But rely on the government? Not at the outset, darling. Never. We must learn to rely on ourselves, and then help our friends, who we hope, are helping theirs. It's a matter of going back to the basics. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Amen, Sunshine... |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
First you have to imagine losing everything. How hard would you cling to even a deadly piece of sheet metal and nails to give your children a home? I happen to know someone who works for FEMA, and his job is to evict these people living in these trailers. The majority of them have no place else to go. The few who had assetts are watching them dwindle away as they support a system that will no longer support them. If you have never suffered from toxic shock, then you don't understand that you can't think clearly--you haven't seen the basic "triage" of walk-in clinics. Respiratory ailments, rashes, and the inevitable dissolution of family ties as these families re-prioritize, ill-equipped with coping skills for a situation that no one had ever imagined. Please come to New Orleans, Kari, Mike. I'll show you the Claiborne Underpass where families are helping themselves as they live in cardboard boxes. The rest of us are trying to hold our lives together and it's like trying to sew seaweed... These are the people you won't hear about. You might hear about them in Gulfport, but I blame the upper echelon of New Orleans as well. They don't want you to see the people who are living on the streets--there are five abandoned houses on my street alone. Nope. They show you the St. Louis Cathedral and vie for the opportunity to host the Superbowl because that is the BUSINESS of New Orleans, and people like these are just bad press. And people wanna know what's wrong with me these days...? laughing I'm having trouble just holding on to what we've got. If it weren't for my kids, I'd have packed a bag and headed for a commmunity kinder to the homeless. That's just a little insight. And yes, sometimes I blow off some steam. Other times it's quiet, like tonight, and I gather my important papers and stare at the ceiling and wonder if it will be there by Christmas. I'm trying to schedule surgeries and doctor's appointments, because my family is one of the lucky ones, and we'd better stand in line at the triage clinics--because I promise you that's all the medical care we're getting here. They stabilize you and release you. In another forum I described my last doctor's appointment, witnessing a man puking in the parking lot. I told a nurse and she said "We KNOW" and put an "Out to Lunch" sign up in the window. The people of New Orleans and Mississippi need a bit of counsel on how to go about helping themselves and rebuildig a life out of ....gone. The Mental Health Association calls this Katrina Sydrome, because they can't rightly call this Post Traumatic Stress--because the stress is ongoing. But by all means, book your conventions, come to our football games, and spend some money... Did ya'll know two members of this forum lost EVERYTHING. I know of one who stomped through benzene sludge to look for his CD's, in St. Bernard parish. St. Bernard--the patron saint of charitable deeds.  Why did he do this? Because they were HIS, dammit and it was all he had left. You've got to have a little something to make a little something more--even street business knows that. But when you start getting sicker and sicker and your children are suffering? The pressure is maddening. It just so happens that the funeral of a friend's child of 12 was today--nod--cancer. So I guess ya'll caught me in a somber mood. Do we let the dead bury the dead too?  |
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water_stained_wisdom Junior Member
since 2008-03-07
Posts 28 |
quote: lets put the amen where it belongs.... this wasnt some midwest tornado... it cant be fixed with homemade cornbread and quilts by well meaning neighborhood ladies. Dont even try and explain it anymore KA-- save your energy for getting well... no one can understand unless they've lived through it...the rest better pray we never have to.  "this cyber medium is over-run with keyboard poets & prophets who believe their every word to be profound" -internet quote- |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I won't try to explain anymore--because I can't. But Susan? Now I remember why I encouraged you to read "Swamplands of the Soul" by James Hollis. If you have it, open it up, k? Right there in the Introduction-- The Search for Meaning is a quote--oh let me type the whole durned thing: "It is not given to us to grasp the truth, which is identical with the divine, directly. We perceive it only in reflection, in example and symbol, in singular and related appearances. It meets us as a kind of life which is incomprehensible to us, and yet we cannot free ourselves from the desire to comprehend it."---Goethe Hollis continues: "There is a thought, a recurrent fantasy perhaps, that the purpose of life is to achieve happiness. After all, even the Constitution of the United States promises 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.' Who does not long to arrive some distant day at that sunlit meadow where, untroubled, we may rest easy, abide awhile and be happy? But nature, or fate, or the gods, has another thought which keeps interrupting this fantasy. The split, the discrepancy between what we long for and what we suffer as limitation, has haunted the Western imagination. To Pascal we are but fragile reeds that may easily be destroyed by an indifferent universe, and yet we are thinking reeds who can conjure with that cosmos. Goeth's Faust speaks of the two souls that contend within his breast, one clinging to this spinning planet and the other longing for the heavens. Nietzsche reminds us that day wherein we discover and grieve the fact that we are not God. William Hazlitt observes: "Man is the only animal that laughs and weeps; for he is the only animal that is struck with the difference between what things are, and what they ought to be." * * * So I thank those of you who do, laugh and weep with me. I love you fiercely. There's been a lot of questions of this sort, not always Katrina related, but kind souls who, like me, are overwhelmed by the apparent chaos that our world has become. Kari and Mike? The kindnesses you've both extended to me will never be forgotten. I still try to "pay it forward", even if it's futility. Even if it's just sneaking a bag lunch and a book down to the guy who lives under the bridge and hangs out at the convenience store. *shrug* He might not want more help than that. I dunno. But I like to think he's enjoying the Edgar Allen Poe.  I also like to think that maybe Pascal was right, and love and kindness in action is an energy that could possibly practice continuum.But I'll leave that discussion to the scholars. Sometimes I think that as we become more aware, life becomes so increasingly painful that we welcome, finally, the enemy: death. |
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Susan Caldwell Member Rara Avis
since 2002-12-27
Posts 8348Florida |
What neighbors were supposed to help? I pretty much think, short of holding another’s head up to keep them from drowning in the flood waters, there wasn’t anything left to give. Further, what those of us outside of the area could give wasn’t what they needed most and certainly a bit hard to get to them. Pretty much the entire area was devastated. There was no good old fashion barn raising that was going to fix that. Levee’s needed fixed, debris and tons of it, needed removed. Tons of sick and injured that couldn’t help themselves let alone their neighbors. But here is the thing; the article I linked wasn’t about what should have happened as much as it was about people, mostly children, getting horribly sick from chemicals in the FEMA trailers they had no choice but to live in. Yes, I said no choice. I will clarify; I don’t mean that as all encompassing. I am sure there was a very low percentage of people that didn’t have to live in them, the lucky ones that didn’t have their life savings in the equity of a home that is now non-existent or worth close to nothing; the ones that may have had family that took them in and was able to afford to help them find a new start outside of NOLA. The ones that didn’t lose all hope and maybe even their sanity when they lost everything they had worked their entire lives for and/or on top of all that lost their family members as well. But back to those FEMA trailers. Anyone honestly believe the high (not safe) levels of chemicals were NOT known before they were sent/set up? I personally doubt it. They knew and they sent them anyway because they didn’t have a better plan or they didn’t care. In the meantime it’s projected that 10-15 years from now those same children will probably be suffering from some form of cancer and most probably dying from it. We are all, each and every one of us a disaster away from being there. Being the one with a sick child, knowing that after everything we had been through, losing our home, our belongings, our jobs, that sometime in the future we are going to lose our child/children as well because someone made the decision to use trailers that were not within health and safety standards. That goes beyond a slap in the face or a kick in the gut when you are down. It screams “we don’t care about anything but appearances,” it screams, “you are not important enough to put the extra effort in for.” I don’t think it’s the time to talk about what should have happened. It’s well beyond the time to fix it. I am tired of the finger pointing. It’s been three years. It’s time to stop hoping it goes away. It’s time to stop ignoring the real issues. It is beyond time to stop blaming the people there for their circumstances. "too bad ignorance isn't painful" |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Anyone honestly believe the high (not safe) levels of chemicals were NOT known before they were sent/set up? I am tired of the finger pointing huh? |
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Susan Caldwell Member Rara Avis
since 2002-12-27
Posts 8348Florida |
Michael, Sorry, sometimes I try to be a bit obscure because of who I work for. and because I work for them I know they knew. They test for it. The manufacturer tests for it. They knew and they sent them anyway. The finger pointing reference came from an entirely different section of my rambling and had nothing to do with the chemicals in the FEMA trailers. What I was referring to was that there are a lot of people that seem content with blaming people in NOLA for not doing more to get themselves out of the mess they find themselves in. Some of that came from the thread on site where I found the article. I didn't include that thread because it incited rage in me and I didn't want to place that rage on to others. "too bad ignorance isn't painful" ~Unknown~ |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
quote: That's what I'm talking about, Serenity. It's people helping other people as best they can. Waiting on the government to come in to help doesn't kick the can. People do. I've realized from the outset of LA and other disasters in the last few years that we can't wait on the government to step in. People have to take it on - at the very expense to their health that you've set out for us to read, serenity, so this wasn't a simple "going back to the basics" statement as has apparently been perceived by others - so that's my fault. But it IS getting back to the basics of being self-sufficient - even if it means taking some sheet metal and hammering out one's own roof. And I'm the first one to realize that not everyone has the skills to be self-sufficient. Heck, without a computer and electricity, anyone under the age of 40 would probably be out in left field, wandering around in a circle, no better off, really, than the first cave dwellers. And yes, ma'am, serene one...I do indeed plan to come and see you as soon as I can. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Cave-dwelling is starting to sound just fine to me. Waiting on the government? That's be funny if we didn't have the tragic proof of five days of coverage on CNN about how futile that can be... It's changed me forever yanno. I am angry. I am more than angry. But without the incredible outpouring of kindness from people, I'd be...oooh, I don't wanna think about how I'd be. I mean, my mood ain't purty now.  There's good stories and there's bad stories. Mike knows that we ran out of gas in a certain city. I confided to only a few was that if my family were of a different color? The officials would have been very helpful. They were giving out free gas vouchers to people of a certain race. I didn't find this out until later, when I'd heard of these free gas vouchers. I asked the guy: "Why weren't we given one?" "You're white, ain't ya?" sigh One day I really have to write the whole story... |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
excuse the typos... my kids are up and typing apparently. *shrug* I'm getting a bit better though. The seroquel that they gave everybody after the storm? Well just google it. And I thought I'd done some bad ass drugs in my time...shaking my head. TREACHEROUS stuff. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I got off topic. I do that alot concerning this subject, just because there's so much to cover. But here's why EVERYBODY should be outraged. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/19/katrina/main3075743.shtml As for the people of New Orleans helping themselves, well, New Orleans flooded because of levee failure, as admitted by the Army Corps of Engineers: http://usgovinfo.about.com/b/2006/06/02/us-corps-takes-blame-for-new-orleans-levee-failure.htm and for the people who don't give a damn about New Orleans, maybe you should be concerned wherever you live, because apparently, it ain't just New Orleans: http://cee.engr.ucdavis.edu/faculty/boulanger/geo_photo_album/Erosion%20and%20piping/Delta%20levee%20failure/Delta%20levee%20failure%20-%20Main.html Now, I thought paying taxes was part of a communal effort of the United States to protect ourselves. This furthers my point made in another thread that money being spent on the war in Iraq might be better spent, helping OURSELVES. I also find it incredible that you can find these trailers for sale at government auctions. So yes, Kari, I agree with the warm-hearted stuff about people helping one another, but we also need to keep our government watchdogs encouraged. Criticism of government failures is NOT unpatriotic. It is the ultimate act of patriotism to speak out against such atrocities. Susan? Thank you lovie, for being you. I do love you! |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
"The rest of us are trying to hold our lives together and it's like trying to sew seaweed..." That about sums it up for me, lady. There are is so much to talk about but mere talk is just a waste of time while people are starving or dying from diseases they had no 'choice' in accepting or rejecting. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
quote: And I agree with you on this, serenity... as I know quite a number of watchdogs. My disheartenment is that for all we watch, nothing seems to get done at all. And here I sit, wishing I could help everyone.  |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Criticism of government failures is NOT unpatriotic. I agree completely. Thank you for the links, Karen. After having read the first one I fond myself in agreement with the point Susan is making. It does pose an interesting question, though. In a perfect world, all of the trailers would have initially been manufactured with acceptable limits of formaldehyde. They weren't. In a choice whether to use them or not, would it have been better not to use them at all, with thousands upon thousands of people homeless and on the streets? I ask that sincerely and, if you say yes, I won't disagree. Which choice would be worse? I still remember the asbestos panic after finding out that it was a no-no which could cause health problems. There was a huge rush to get it out of the schools, hospitals, out of every home in America. That's fine and the right decision but also we had lived with that same asbestos for decades without any massive keeling over of the public I can remember. The doctors in the article state they cannot conclusively tie the sickness to the trailers but let's assume that it was the cause, anyway. How many people were affected? What percentage? Is that percentage high enough to offset the good they did for thousands of others with no place to live? You can say just one child sick from it is too many and I won't disagree with that, either, but I don't know that the hundred twenty thousand who didn't have problems and had a place to live will agree. None of this gives the government a pass. The trailers should have been inspected before use....period. But they weren't. So should they have been used or not? |
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Susan Caldwell Member Rara Avis
since 2002-12-27
Posts 8348Florida |
They were inspected and they knew. Now, let me ask this, if it had been Washington DC instead of NOLA, would the trailers have been used? "we" are still pulling ABS out of buildings. Why? Because "encapsulating" was the easier answer and sometimes still is. We don't really know what it causes. There is a huge rise in Autism, maybe ABS was the cause. Who really knows, especially when it comes to long term issues. "too bad ignorance isn't painful" |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
On another site, a soldier said he thought it should have been set up like a military camp. Start out with tents, and every able body contributes to building sturdier shelters. He described pretty much like I imagine a M*A*S*H unit would be set up. I know little about these things, but I think that would have worked very well in Gulfport. In New Orleans, I just shake my head. Nagin got re-elected by out of town residents, and he made empty promises of bringing people back with absolutely no plan. I think my disgust for the man far outweighs yours, and just might be equal to that of Chris Rose. Nagin's little "joke" about giving the homeless a bus ticket? That was infuriating, but it IS something I suggest to my personal friends who are having harder times than I. (Do you know that they moved tent people around when there would National attention? There was a tent camp right across city hall. So they gave them better tents and blankets and a ride, to some place off-camera.) I HATE Nagin. (Can ya tell?) Some of the public housing might have been re-utilized. I know a lot of other folks with homes managed to live in theirs while they rebuilt. (That possibility is what caused a near-riot at City Hall if you recall.) I do fault New Orleans for not coming up with a better plan. But I'm glad we agree that toxic housing should never have been a part of it. I'm nodding with much sadness, because a friend of mine just phoned this evening. She's homeless again. But unfortunately, she has a bad habit and I have a no-tolerance rule about crack addicts. I, too, draw the line in places. New Orleans needs more places such as "Pathways"--a facility that helps people help themselves. They are a sort of "halfway" house for people with disabilities and drug problems. So---um, don't go thinking that "L" word. The place works and I know it does, because we happen to have tenants that "graduated" from there. (We keep the rent pretty much to where it just pays the taxes and insurance.) sigh...I miss my old house too. But I want to be one of the people who do the right thing--because the right thing was done by me.So there's a no-crack policy there as well. Karen draws the line too. Sometimes with a .38. Seriously, do you understand how it hurt my heart to tell my friend "no"--I have known her since second grade. But I am not a rehabilitation facility--but we do need them. I had to rethink my no tolerance policy a few months ago, when the son of a friend of ours was shot while he was high, and stupidly tried to car-jack someone. They had been trying to get help for him for months. He had written a letter to Jesus begging for help. He had just turned 18. Just a kid who got caught up in the dark creepies that we're fighting in New Orleans. (I came back to explain--"dark creepies" is a term coined by the columnist Chris Rose, who wrote publically of his own nervous breakdown. It's just a term for...bad thoughts.) I didn't know what to say to his parents either... I've said it before though--there are better minds than mine that we should be able to count on--I'm not a public servant. But if I find that plan that the soldier had drawn out, I'll post it. I thought it was interesting. A temporary tent city that would utilize those poor people in shock and give them a sense of self-respect and just...doing something. Our own home wasn't exactly comfortable for a few months either. And there's STILL a crack in my damned ceiling. (But I'm not getting on you about that, but I mean, c'mon....) But seriously--the people of New Orleans do need more help resources. Whether by drug-related violence, suicide from depression, or chronic illness that is going untreated--we are dying. I wish I could remember where I heard the stat--but I think our friends in Mississippi just beat us out for having the most people with untreated illnesses. That used to be our honor. Do I blame it on Katrina? I lost five doctors. Five. One walked out in the middle of the day. So yes, I think that Katrina-related issues ought to be a priority in this upcoming political race. It's just something simple that my Dad taught me--take care of what you can--apologize if there was something you could have done and didn't--and figure out how to handle things better for the next time. I'll go look for that guy's suggestions. It wasn't exactly fine living quarters, but it made sense to me. I stayed here in this house alone sans electricity while under Martial Law. It was hot, uncomfortable and scary. But I was home. And I made damned sure everybody knew it.  |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Forgive the incoherence of the above post. I do have one helluva story to tell one day. I just get pretty passionate about it, so the logic isn't quite there. Hope you all forgive me and understand. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Karen, if you don't have the right to be passionate about it, NOBODY does! The tents sound like a good idea. Of course, there would have been complaints about that, too, but there wouldn't have been dangerous chemicals around. Susan, you ignored all of my questions and instead answered with a question of your own. My questions weren't loaded. They weren't asked to prove a point of mine. They were sincere questions that I had hoped to get your input on. Would they have done the same in DC? I have no way of knowing. |
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Susan Caldwell Member Rara Avis
since 2002-12-27
Posts 8348Florida |
Michael, "Susan, you ignored all of my questions and instead answered with a question of your own." This wasn't a malicious act on my part. I actually thought I answered all your questions with my statement but again maybe I was being a bit obscure and will answer them now. Your first questions was: "In a choice whether to use them or not, would it have been better not to use them at all, with thousands upon thousands of people homeless and on the streets? I ask that sincerely and, if you say yes, I won't disagree. Which choice would be worse?" My answer: Is that my only choice? In this country, my choice is living in trailers that will make my children sick and possible kill them or being homeless? No. In real life I would have chosen the trailers if I had no where else to go. Telling myself that maybe it wouldn't happen to me or my children and when it did happen, hating myself and doing harm to myself after I had taken care of my now dead child. But apparently me and my fictional family are expendable. Next question: How many people were affected? What percentage? Is that percentage high enough to offset the good they did for thousands of others with no place to live? I don't know the percentages right off and could probably look them up. I dare say they wouldn't matter so much to you if it were YOU and your family sick and dying from something the government gave you and implied to you was safe. And that implication is there whether it's said or not. But if thousands got a place to stay, regardless of the fact that it was probably going to kill their children later, and only a few thousand children die, it was a balanced decision, right? I disagree. Next: So should they have been used or not? I contend there should have been a better way and probably was. We have some very smart people in this country. We have a strong country with money. There was a better way. I personally don't have the answer, but when I don't, I brainstorm with others and find that answer. And it isn't a temporary fix that will cause harm at a later date. "too bad ignorance isn't painful" ~Unknown~ |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
But if thousands got a place to stay, regardless of the fact that it was probably going to kill their children later, and only a few thousand children die, it was a balanced decision, right? So now death of a few thousand children is probable? The ones that may have had family that took them in and was able to afford to help them find a new start outside of NOLA. The ones that didn’t lose all hope and maybe even their sanity when they lost everything they had worked their entire lives for and/or on top of all that lost their family members as well. So now anyone who had to live in the trailers have lost hope, eventual sanity, everything they have worked for, and the death of their families? my choice is living in trailers that will make my children sick and possible kill them or being homeless? So now the trailers WILL make your children sick and possibly kill them? I don't know the percentages right off and could probably look them up. and where would you look them up since whatever maladies occur may be somewhere in the distant future, as you suggest Who really knows, especially when it comes to long term issues. Look them up, please. I contend there should have been a better way and probably was. Should and probably doesn't do much to strengther your statements. The levess broke. The hurricane hit. Over a hundred thousand people were instantly homeless. The government acted, without taking the time to sit around in groups and brainstorm. Susan, don't misunderstand. I don't disagree with you that the trailers should have been safe before sending them and I can get just as incensed about any child becoming sick because of it. Your comments, though, have gone overboard. To make the statements now that thousands of children will die from it, anyone who lived in the trailers will lose everything they have worked for all their lives including their lives, all of the children WILL become sick and possibly die has eliminated the sincere side of the topic and gone into more of a continued rant that your title suggested it would be. ...and you have that right...so rant on and I will discontinue trying to discuss it in more factual terms. |
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Susan Caldwell Member Rara Avis
since 2002-12-27
Posts 8348Florida |
Michael, Must I really watch each and every word I use so that it doesn't give you a viable reason to try to discredit what I say? And why would you do that to others when you yourself speak in similar terms and labels? Are your labels and terms better simply because they are yours? Then after all your implications that I am "overboard" and "ranting" you say you will not say anymore. Well, I guess you made your point and put your foot down. BTW~ The term "will" that I used was used in the respect of the ones that will die (as in in the future anyone that does die) not as in there will most certainly be deaths from this. Since you quoted the statement I made that had the word "will" in it, here are the ones you missed: "In the meantime it’s projected that 10-15 years from now those same children will probably be suffering from some form of cancer and most probably dying from it." I don’t mean that as all encompassing. "The ones that didn’t lose all hope and maybe even their sanity when they lost everything they had worked their entire lives for and/or on top of all that lost their family members as well." ~ you quoted this by saying: "So now anyone who had to live in the trailers have lost hope, eventual sanity, everything they have worked for, and the death of their families?" I did not say the ones that lived in the trailers were the ones that had lost hope, and MAYBE even their sanity………but was referring to the vicims of Katrina… can I ask why you choose to take some things out of context by leaving out the word maybe? Now this just really confuses someone of my apparent ignorance: "Should and probably doesn't do much to strengther your statements" That's what you said. Right after you said: "So now the trailers WILL make your children sick and possibly kill them?" "will" is too emcompassing and "should" and "probably" doesn't strengthen my statements. *sigh* I guess I just fail all the way around. I am willing to bet that if I had said everything that was in agreement with you, Michael, you wouldn't be trying so hard to discredit my opinions or statements. As for the answers to the trailers….IN MY OPINION, MAYBE, a better answer would have been to use the trailers for a very short time until the brainstroming people came up with a better solution. Yes, I know, but it MIGHT have helped. This is from the article I linked: Doctors cannot conclusively link her asthma to the trailer. But they fear she is among tens of thousands of youngsters who may face lifelong health problems because the temporary housing supplied by the Federal Emergency Management Agency contained formaldehyde fumes up to five times the safe level. The chemical, used in interior glue, was detected in many of the 143,000 trailers sent to the Gulf Coast in 2006. But a push to get residents out of them, spearheaded by FEMA and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, did not begin until this past February. Members of Congress and CDC insiders say the agencies' delay in recognizing the danger is being compounded by studies that will be virtually useless and the lack of a plan to treat children as they grow. "It's tragic that when people most need the protection, they are actually going from one disaster to a health disaster that might be considered worse," said Christopher De Rosa, assistant director for toxicology and risk assessment at the federal Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, an arm of the CDC. "Given the longer-term implications of exposure that went on for a significant period of time, people should be followed through time for possible effects." Formaldehyde is classified as a probable carcinogen, or cancer-causing substance, by the Environmental Protection Agency. There is no way to measure formaldelhyde in the bloodstream. Respiratory problems are an early sign of exposure. Young children are at particular risk. Thousands who lived in trailers will be in the prime of life in the 10 to 15 years doctors believe it takes cancer to develop. From one of the links Karen provided: CBS News has learned that health concerns in FEMA trailers could reach well beyond serious respiratory problems; several deaths may linked to toxic levels of formaldehyde gas, reports Keteyian. Earl Shorty, a resident of Louisiana, moved into a FEMA travel trailer in one compound with his wife, Desiree, about a year ago. "Within four months after we moved in here, she just started coughing and she would get weak," Shorty told Keteyian. Earl says his wife didn't smoke and that every time she left the trailer the coughing would stop. Eventually, she became too weak to go out. On July 2, she took her last breath at a local hospital. "She was just looking at me and she said, 'Babe, I'm scared,'" said Shorty. "That's the last thing I remember her telling me, that she was scared." Formaldehyde, sometimes found in building materials used in manufactured homes, can cause respiratory problems and possibly cancer in high doses. FEMA provided more than 120,000 trailers to victims of the 2005 hurricanes Katrina and Rita, and many thousands of people still occupy them, especially in Louisiana, Mississippi and Arkansas. And more: Last year, the Sierra Club tested 31 travel trailers in Mississippi and found that virtually all — 94 percent — had levels of formaldehyde above that limit. CBS News discovered an internal FEMA document that cites cancer as a potential job hazard for those just inspecting the trailers. "too bad ignorance isn't painful" |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Susan, it is truly tragic that people are getting sick from FEMA's attempts to help. Yes, formaldehyde is universally accepted as dangerous and it is used extensively in glued building materials. I believe though that it does disipate rather quickly at least to the point of not being particularly dangerous. That said, I don't mean to discount your concerns at all since I really have no direct knowledge of the facts. I'll let you and Mike argue that, if that's what you are doing. (He'll probably be back). What I do have to question though is any "internal documents discovered by CBS." After all, they are notorious for "discovering" internal documents that turn out to be forgeries. Their credibility simply does not pass the smell test. Oh, I also should say, I really like your new picture. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
If you are going to pick on the source, pick on the one who quoted it and leave Susan the hell alone. Susan's rage is justified and I'm not saying that just because I am a WITNESS to what happened, but her rage is justified because she has the facts--the facts before they are filtered down through a "news" agency to fit with someone's agenda. If y'wanna give it to someone on the chin, Pete? Right here. Take a good swing too, because if I don't go down there's hell to pay. I'm used to nosebleeds, too. Earbleeds as well. THEY WERE A DAILY OCCURENCE in 2006 in the Metro New Orleans area. *shaking my head* what is the matter with you people? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
One more thing-- there is one very vital question that was asked by a news reporter of a Fema representative and I'll ask it of you all right now: "Would you live in one?" The man actually laughed. You know how enraging that is? He laughed and said "no more questions". So no, there should be no more questions. What there should be are some expletive ANSWERS. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Balladeer, The story is actually more painful than it initially appears, according to the research I’ve done over the past few days. http://understandingkatrina.ssrc.org/Smith/ Neil Smith in his 2006 article talks about some of the pre- huricaine contributions to the disaster, including the Bush budget cuts which deep-sixed plans for improvements in the levee system and its pumping capabilities. All in all a total of 80% of that budget was cut. Administration plans turned “hundreds of square miles of protective wetlands” over to developers, with predictable results. Despite the plans made by the Army engineers to deal with such eventualities, the history of storms and floods in the past and the knowledge of the deteriorating state of repairs, Bush was later to pretend that the situation was utterly unforseeable. The link goes into other issues in considerable and interesting depth. I am not familiar with the political slant of the source. Charles Perrow in an articles from an article in the same series offers some interesting side comments on the same material. Perrew is from Yale, which one tends to think of as a conservative institution, but his point of view here seems studiously neutral. You’ll have to judge for yourself. http://understandingkatrina.ssrc.org/Perrow/ Perrew points out that FEMA was an organization that was foundered by Jimmy Carter in 1979 with a dual mandate. On one hand, it was supposed to help with security issues and problems arrising from them, and on the other it was supposed to deal with natural disasters and relief of natural disasters. Which mission it takes as its focus tends to depend on the politics of the administration it works for. Thus, under Reagan, Bush and the current President, it has focused on defense issues, and under President Clinton, it forcused on civilian relief and disaster relief issues. Particularly useful in this article is the section labled FEMA Under Bush. I urge EVERYBODY to have a look at this section, because it explains an awful lot of the original questions I think all of us had about how such a thing could be allowed to happen in the first place. It doesn’t justify it, mind you, but it does seem to explain. A clearly left wing blogger (yay team!) posted material about a similar FEMA incident in Kansas that sounds pretty familiar as well. http://www.preemptivekarma.com/archives/2007/05/fema_is_no_long.html Because of the bias, I include this only because it reads so much like so many of the news reports I saw and heard over TV and radio at the time. It also sounds like the accounts I’ve heard from people who have told me they’ve been there. Once the immediate force of Katrina had dissapated, the government through FEMA began to designate people who would take charge of the reconstruction efforts. The contracts were awarded to four of the same contractors who have taken much of the contract work for the government in Iraq. Bechtel, CH2M Hill, Shaw, and Fluor by some incredible twist of fate proved to be exactly the right people for the three billion dollar Cost Plus contracts. http://www.gao.gov/htext/d08106.html Now I too find it difficult to believe that the GOA was only asked to investigate a limited amount of detail about these contracts, but that seems to be exactly the case. I continue to look for something that seems to fit more closely with my sense of reality, but there you have it. Only a small number of “non-representative” transactions were investigated and in these about 32 millian dollars worth of fraud and theft was uncovered. I wonder what might have been the case if a thorough investigation of the whole thing might have been undertaken. Balladeer, I understand that you don’t agree with Susan here. I am not sure that here terms are more or less factual than anybody else’s here. When you say, “The levees broke. The hurricane hit. Over a hundred thousand people were instantly homeless. The government acted, without taking the time to sit around in groups and brainstorm.” I believe that your history is off base. If fact, the government, because of the way it it views FEMA these days, made a point of not acting, and in preventing other people who might have made things better from acting as well. I’ve supplied you with the links to support that above if your memory needs to be jogged. The government did better when the victims were Republican in Texas or Florida, but even so didn’t do as well as iut had been able to do before FEMA had been merged with the Department of Homeland Security. Lord help us, Something the Democrats helped to come up with and certainly didn’t stand up against when it was being formed. Another not so proud moment in Democratic party history. The form that the action took was to give out non-competitive cost-plus contracts to the buddies of the administration, and to pretend that such Hurricanes hadn’t been predictable given the deteriorating shape the N.O. levees were in and the funding cuts from the corps of Engineers. There was time to plan for and prevent many of the problems. If the contracts had not been cost-plus contracts with profit built in, the companies might have been a bit more worried about quick delivery, and might well have been able to provive quick inexpensive fixes. It wasn’t in their economic interests to do so because the party that believes in letting the market work, really only means that for peopole that they aren’t cozy with. They didn’t structure it for the market to work in favor of the government or the people who needed the services, but the people who were providing them. Susan doesn’t know how many of the children will sicken and die from exposure to formaldehyde fumes. Is she wrong to panic about the number of them that will be adversely affected? I am compelled to give two answers here. One is that she is theorizing in advance of her data, so she doesn’t know and she can’t tell for sure. The other is that she’s got pretty good reason to think that formaldehyde at least contributes to COPD and asthma at levels below what’s common in those trailers. She’s got pretty good reason to believe that there are going to be some pretty sick kids for reasons that could have been prevented. And that cost/benefit analysis of profit taken in versus damages paid out per death due to formaldehyde poisoning by the contractors manufacturing those trailers is an extremely cynical method of deciding what materials should be used. It makes the Chinese plywood cheaper, even if you do count in the number of people who will have to be paid off for the deaths that will be caused, so by all means, use the chinese plywood. More money to be made there. They teach coursework in cost/benefit analysis, you know. Knowing that business routinely uses such analyses should not add to her peace of mind. It doesn’t add to mine and I suspect it souldn’t add to yours, Balladeer. It didn’t go out with the Corvair. On the flip side, I am compelled to acknowledge that there is nothing to what you’re saying, Balladeer, that has data behind it that’s any more compelling than Susan’s. Why would you assume that formaldehyde wouldn’t have the effects she suggests. It’s one of those ingrediants in tobacco that makes it more toxic, it’s used as an embalming agent because it’s really not very good for promoting health and growth but for freezing it and killing it in its tracks. I’d say that it’s pretty much a toss up with more data apparent on Susan’s side. I’m always willing to be convinced otherwise, of course. Best to everybody about this interesting topic. Sorry about the complexity of the GOA link. It’s driven me quite mad with all the letters and numbers and trying to keep everything straight. I believe I’ve got at least the general gist, however. I really want to see if there’s some GAO document someplace that tackles the whole Three Billion dollar ball of yarn. Anybody else looking? Best to you all trying to make sense of this, and love. BobK. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Must I really watch each and every word I use so that it doesn't give you a viable reason to try to discredit what I say? Words are what you are using to make your point, Susan, and, yes, you should watch them when you are making direct statements. BTW~ The term "will" that I used was used in the respect of the ones that will die (as in in the future anyone that does die) not as in there will most certainly be deaths from this. Aha. Then you are simply making the statement that everyone will die someday, not that there may actually be deaths from this. Have you considered a career in politics, by any chance? "The ones that didn’t lose all hope and maybe even their sanity when they lost everything they had worked their entire lives for and/or on top of all that lost their family members as well." The "maybe" you emboldened here relates to sanity in your sentence only. The rest of the statement is listed as fact and all-encompasing to those living in the trailers. ~ you quoted this by saying: "So now anyone who had to live in the trailers have lost hope, eventual sanity, everything they have worked for, and the death of their families?" I did not say the ones that lived in the trailers were the ones that had lost hope, and MAYBE even their sanity………but was referring to the vicims of Katrina… Er, you mean you don't see the words in the sentence IN THE TRAILERS before saying you did not say the ones that lived in the trailers? can I ask why you choose to take some things out of context by leaving out the word maybe? I left out no words. I copied and pasted your exact words and nothing was taken out of context at all. I simply called you on the exact statements you made. If you find that offensive that I would use your own statements to make my point, then there's not much I can say about that. It's interesting that the only words you did not embolden in your showing of the article was "Doctors cannot conclusively link her asthma to the trailer.". You may regard me as the enemy here. I'm not. I told you there were many things I agree with but you simply went too far in your comments which weakend the good points you were trying to make. Everything you say is based on conjecture. MAYBE children will get sick and die. MAYBE people will have their whole lives shattered. MAYBE the huge rise in autism had to do with asbestos. But if thousands got a place to stay, regardless of the fact that it was probably going to kill their children later, and only a few thousand children die, it was a balanced decision, right? and Telling myself that maybe it wouldn't happen to me or my children and when it did happen, hating myself and doing harm to myself after I had taken care of my now dead child Where does this melodrama come from? It does not help the valid argument you are trying to make by creating these "maybe" scenarios....and all because of an article of one child born in one of the trailers becoming sick. I repeat, I agree the trailers should have been safely constructed. They weren't and the question remains was it better to use them or not? Listening to your comments, not only will thousands of children die because of the trailers, also there must be either a governmental agency or an official high up in the organization who said, "Send the trailers. What's that? Thousands of people will die and lose everything because of them? No big deal. Send them anyway." That is basically what you are saying, that they knew the trailers were extremely dangerous and sent them anyway. Sorry. I cannot believe that anyone would do that, regardless of their political party. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Bob, It's not that I don't agree with Susan at all. The trailers should have been safe. Will thousands die because of them? No, she doesn't know how many of the children will sicken and die, if any, and yet she refers to all of the ones that WILL die and I think that's wrong. No, Bob, I'm not saying anything with data behind it because I'm not saying that needs to be proven with data. I'm only saying it's not a proper presentation of the facts to paint the doomsday scenario based on nothing but theory and without data. I also disagree with the fact that the agency would intentionally do something like this, knowing it would kill the children. The government did better when the victims were Republican in Texas or Florida, I'm embarrassed for you to feel you had to stoop that low, Bob. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Mike? Your question is interesting too. Because I distinctly remembering people asking where the trailers were...? I recall one of our local investigative reporters finding hundreds of empty trailers just sitting on a lot in...Arkansas, I think. Everybody was wondering what was going on then too. Now it seems we're still left to speculate. Did Fema realize that the newly built trailers were too "hot" (too toxic--but nevermind) and were allowing them that "dry" time? It's speculation, but it sure makes sense over why they would do such a thing. I mean, we had plotted out communities ready for the trailers, and they sat there--for months. With a very quiet Fema organization shrugging off questions by stating that there had been administrative changes... And that was just for the community trailer parks designed to replace public housing. We had more than a few that were planted right here on front lawns. I had one friend who had been coming to my house to shower, because well? His Fema trailer had arrived, but they said they were just the delivery boys. So there was no water and sewerage hook-up and good-luck-to-ya-buddy, because the sewerage and water board was pretty busy. And yes, I get angry, and yes, maybe I am too close to the situation to think clearly on it, but consider yourselves lucky that you have the distance. But Mike, I happen to know that there are Fema trailer parks still in Florida from Hurricane Andrew. I'd be interested in hearing a comparison/contrast in how those families fared--were the trailers built by the same manufacturer? Did families get ill from toxic formeldehyde fumes? If they did, why didn't we hear about it? Seriously, I'd like to know if anyone can come up with some facts about that--because my concern isn't just about me and mine--that hastily built community in Florida that was wiped out because they didn't conform to safety standards remains very much in my mind. Especially as I watch "carpetbaggers" come in to my hometown and attempt to make some "house-flip" money. I thank you BobK, for recognizing anger as the voice of pain. Like I said, we need answers. The answers won't change what happened, but maybe they will help formulate a plan to make damned sure that THIS--will never happen again. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I'd be interested in hearing a comparison/contrast in how those families fared--were the trailers built by the same manufacturer? Did families get ill from toxic formeldehyde fumes? If they did, why didn't we hear about it? NOW we are getting somewhere. Excellent question, serenity gal. I'm going to research that as best I can. |
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Susan Caldwell Member Rara Avis
since 2002-12-27
Posts 8348Florida |
"NOW we are getting somewhere." Michael, nothing, and I mean nothing, bothered me more on this thread than that statement. I am deeply offended by it. "too bad ignorance isn't painful" |
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Balladeer
Administrator
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
i'm very sorry, Susan. I had no intention of offending you, nor was it meant as such. It was excellent of you to introduce the thread as I think it is something that should be known. Karen is looking for answers. What about the Florida trailers? Were they the same? Is there anything to be learned from them which would indicate how valid the possibility is that sickness occurs in any kind of significant number? She did not create the scenario of thousands dying or families losing everything because of the trailers. She wants to know the possibilities and probabilities based on a similar instance with the same guidelines. You deserve the credit for bringing it up. She deserves the credit for her realistic search for information. That's all.. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Wait a minute Karen. Where exactly was it that I "picked on" Susan? I believe my only comments in this thread pretty much agreed with her concerns. And yes, she did start the thread. My only negative, and somewhat whimsical, remark was related to quoting CBS as a reliable source for "discovered internal documents." And I still stand by the declaration. Now, if Susan was quoting a you, quoting a source, then I suppose I should have directed my comment to you. Consider it done. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
grin... I suggest a good old fashioned mud wrastlin' match. Pete & Mike vs. me & Susan Anybody care to meet me in St. Bernard? I'll bet I get a big "no" from everybody on that one.  |
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Susan Caldwell Member Rara Avis
since 2002-12-27
Posts 8348Florida |
oh I have been hitting the weights too! I am there!  "too bad ignorance isn't painful" |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Gee, let me think about it. Rolling around in the mud with two purty wimmin, mano a mano? Does that really sound like something a man like me would want to do? Y E S ! ! ! |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Okay...but um, let's skip the benzene mud. Make it...JELLO! gleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!  |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Whoopee, count me in too Mike.  [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (05-31-2008 10:22 PM).] |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Balladeer, Sorry to hear you believe my comment, the first one quoted below, deserves the response you offer. quote: If you'd had a look at some of the links beforehand, you would have noted that I was paraphrasing their research. In point of fact Louisiana commissioned a study about the distribution of funds among the various states hit by Katrina. It was carried out by The Nelson A. Rockefeller Foundation of Government. While my earlier contention had been about services between Katrina, Wilma and Rita, the Study spoken about in this link is specific to Katrina alone. I thought you might appreciate the additional reference to understand I was not making anything up here. I too was upset, but my upset was directed toward those who had actually handled the funds in this fashion, and not toward myself for actually bringing the situation to your attention. You can blame me for pointing out the data to you all you would like; I did not arrange the way the government chose to spend the funds. Blaming me does not make their behavior any more palatable. http://blog.nola.com/times-picayune/2007/09/la_given_less_than_its_fair_sh.html To offer decent data doesn't seem to me to be stooping to anything but an attempt to reach the truth. I know that you are more loathe to believe ill of our government than I am. I urge you to recall that I while I am a Democrat, I tend to be upset about what I see as Democratic failures and do not hesitate to say so. I believe that holding a liberal political position includes being as honest about your own flaws as you are willing to be about the flaws of those who oppose you. Being Liberal means admitting to mistakes in the hopes of being able to correct them. If I spent more time, I could probably find more sources that would offer the same information, Mike. If you chose to, I suspect you'd be able to as well. How does backing up what I say with a fair amount of research amount to stooping to anything? "Nelson Rockefeller," does that sound terribly left wing to you? Sincerely, Bob |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
"Louisiana politicians, both Democrats and Republicans, say their state has gotten less than its share of many kinds of rebuilding money, from housing to health care to fisheries. Meanwhile, Louisiana's Democratic leaders contend that Mississippi -- buttressed by strong Republican leadership at a time when the GOP controlled all the halls of power in Washington -- has consistently received more than its share of federal money." So what's new? "The report isn't entirely flattering to Louisiana. While blasting federal agencies and rulemakers for being too inflexible in the face of an unprecedented disaster, it also said Louisiana made its Road Home program too cumbersome with "multiple layers of rules .¤.¤. designed to answer those who maintain the state is too corrupt to be trusted with that much money." A valid point, I would say, since Louisiana, and especially New Orleans, has possibly the worst corruption levels in government in the country. This is not unknown, by any means. Handing them blank checks does not mean money will get to where it needs to go. Shall I then say, Bob, that the democratic-led New Orleans is the most corrupt city in the US, as if to indicate that the reason they are so corrupt is because there are Democrats in power? Then I would be doing exactly what you did with your comment,,,,, You could have said the government did better in Texas and Florida but, inserting Republican-led into it, adds that little politically-biased spice into it, I suppose. It's not Republican's fault that Nagin and Blanco were such incredible losers who did nothing during the approach of the hurricane, did nothing during the hurricane, and only came out of their shells after the hurricane to scream for money. I could just as easily say that Florida, Texas and Mississippi fared better because the Republican-led governments rolled up their sleeves and went to work instead of whining, but that would be insulting to the New Orleans residents who actually did just that, despite their governor's and mayor's non-actions. I had not injected political bias in my earlier comments and I'm disappointed you took that route...that's all. BTW..did you happen to read the comments on that last link you sent, the comments from N.O. citizens? There are pros and cons but the anger at their own Louisiana politics, corruption and misuse of funds is prevalent. These people should know what they are talking about much better than we. [This message has been edited by Balladeer (06-01-2008 10:19 AM).] |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Well I didn't die. But I did get sick from the fumes. Not from a FEMA trailer...but a regular single-wide mobile home that many just like me lived in years ago. My parents had no idea that the "glue" used in mobile homes would give off such and I developed severe allergies and breathing problems. Ran around for two summers with giant red blotches all over my body...and the docs thought it was ragweed irritation, but when I stayed with my Grandmomma down the road, it went away...hmmm. She had the same weeds there. My parents did what they'd planned to do in the first place. They sold the mobile home once our family home was built/bought. I never suffered any more complications, but I was lucky. Then they published a news article about "irritations" and such affecting many kids and elderly, so we finally had an answer to my mysterious problem. I'm very sad for those children and their parents because they are no where near as fortunate as I and we were pretty pinched for pennies. where do they go when temporary seems permanent? where do they go. what to do. so sad. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
That's very interesting, Regina. May I ask how long ago that was? You said years ago and that would indicate that all trailers, not only FEMA ones, were constructed with these same problems. It begs the question of how this could have continued for so long? One would think that, if a problem like that were discovered, action would be taken, as in the case of asbestos. I'm sorry to hear that happened to you and I share your sympathy for those with no choice. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Balladeer, You ask what's new? Certainly not that the Democratic leadership would protest Mississippi's larger share of benefits. It seems clear enough that Mississippi was basically shortchanged to some degree as well, and the more one reads about the clean-up the more that seems evident. The G.A.O. report I quoted spoke about some of the Mississippi money, and the amount that was actually audited by them was only a small and non-representative sample. Even that showed 32 Million dollars of waste and fraud in the federal spending. You can only imagine what a more detailed accounting of the complete program would do. What was new, and which you didn't make note of as being new was the agreement of both Republican and Democratic Senators and Congressmen in the Louisiana delegation that the administration had not done a good job in dealing with the storm, with the recovery or with the citizens of Louisiana in general. In a state where Politics is only a little bit more dangerous than boxing, that's making a fairly serious statement. The Rockefeller Report is not entirely flattering to Louisiana, I agree, Balladeer; and that's why I thought it important to include the link to this particular report rather than to something more one sided. I'm not in the business of trying to make anything black and white/good and evil; I'm trying to get the best and most in focus view of things I can come up with. I thought a Rockefeller Report would get more of both sides in than either a purely right wing or a purely left wing write up. I try to be straight about my own bias. I try to let everybody know as much as I do about the bias of anybody I quote, and I want the picture to be as full as possible. I believe the state has corruption problems. I'm not at all sure that they're more extensive, however, than similar problems in Massachusetts, or Texas, or Florida, or Illinois or Missouri or any of a bunch of other states who will gladly tell you stories of the convoluted levels of corruption in their state and municipal governments. Some are Democratic, some, such as my birth state of Ohio, are usually Republican. I don't know that anybody except yourself has suggested that blank checks be offered to anybody. ("Handing them blank checks does not mean money will get to where it needs to go.") Why you would suggest that even this government would do something like that for anybody but Bechtel or other massive government contractors is way beyond me. If you were to suggest, however that there were seriously corrupt Democratic municipal and state governments about, I'd have to say that I certainly would assume so. New Orleans has that kind of reputation. I actually wasn't aware that it was run by a Democratic machine though I knew it was a Democratic town. Everything Serenity seems to say certainly seems to agree with what you're saying there, Balladeer, and you're a standup guy, even though you do get a bit carried away with enthusiasm from time to time. I'd have to say that those are a pretty corrupt bunch of Democrats in power down there, wouldn't I? And that would be true, wouldn't it? And, as the Rockefeller Report suggests, and which you have chosen not to deal with, the government did better in the states with records of voting Republican: Texas and Florida. I didn't happen to add the politically biased spice, Balladeer; I simply tasted the gumbo and noticed that it was hot. I simply—to switch metaphors once again—reported that the emperor wasn't wearing any clothes; I didn't undress the man myself. I have no idea where you get the idea that Nagin and Blanco "were such incredible losers who did nothing during the approach of the hurricane , did nothing during the hurricane, and only came out of their shells after the hurricane to scream for money." You should check back with some neutral accounts of events, which will tell you that Blanco especially was trying to get a state of emergency called by Bush 48 hours before the Hurricane hit New Orleans, and that both were trying to Get Through to The Federal Government During and after the Storm and were having their calls ignored because the Department of Homeland Security was treating the storm not as a natural disaster but as the equivalent of an attack. This is why they stopped emergency vehicles from going in and many of the victims from going out in the first days after the storm hit. When The Then Director of FEMA tried to Blame Governor Blanco in testimony before congress for the very things you accuse her and Nagin of, she released the text of the letter she sent President Bush before Katrina hit, and Mr. Brown had the good sense to keep his mouth closed about the poisonous spew thereafter. Should you wish to talk about the difference between The Republican Led Governments and the government in the Louisiana, which I understand is mostly Republican, except for New Orleans and the relative recoveries, perhaps we can take that up at another time, when I can go into the legislation the U.S. House and Senate tried to Burden Louisiana with as a condition of giving the funds in the first place. As a minimal-government interference Republican kind of guy on general prinicples, you should be especially proud of these. I know I am. My very best to you, Mike, yours, BobK. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I believe the state has corruption problems. I'm not at all sure that they're more extensive, however, than similar problems in Massachusetts, or Texas, or Florida, or Illinois or Missouri or any of a bunch of other states who will gladly tell you stories of the convoluted levels of corruption in their state and municipal governments. Then you would be one of the few in the country, I believe, who is not sure. Having gone to high school in Louisiana, albeit the northern part, we were certainly aware of it and, when high school students can be aware of anything, it's usually major! If you like, I'll do some research and we can compare. The only other city I can think of in comparison is the old days of Chicago, with the "best police force money could buy". And, as the Rockefeller Report suggests, and which you have chosen not to deal with, the government did better in the states with records of voting Republican: Texas and Florida. I didn't happen to add the politically biased spice, Balladeer; I simply tasted the gumbo and noticed that it was hot. No doubt the political bias is there, Bob, and not initially by you. Reports are good at that. If I do a count and come up with the fact that there are more left-handed people in florida than Louisiana, may I then claim that FEMA treated states better with larger amounts of left-handed people? I'm not going to believe that any government, Republican or Democrat would make such biased decisions based on whether the governor was of their party. One thing about gumbo, Bob. The flavor of the shrimps can make a big difference. Some of the inferences we read come from shrimps. I have no idea where you get the idea that Nagin and Blanco "were such incredible losers who did nothing during the approach of the hurricane , did nothing during the hurricane, and only came out of their shells after the hurricane to scream for money." I'm sure Serenity could tell you all about Nagin but let's not ask her because we don't want to be responsible for such a rise in blood pressure. Suffice to say he hid in a hotel room until it was all over and then popped out afterward like Ponche-something Phil and basically screamed, "Somebody DO something!" Blanco wanted to handle it on her own all the way up to the end. She did not want a Republican government coming in to save the day. Perhaps she wanted to show that Democrats could take care of their own, without help from someone as despicable as a George Bush. We had some extensive threads here, as I'm sure you can imagine, right after the hurricane, filled with a lot of facts and input. It could make interesting reading for you, should you have the time. Just look for the dates in the Alley after the time it hit. You will recognize the thread by the pictures of the hundreds of school busses sitting in flooded parking lots because Nagin didn't want to use them for evacuation purposes. I'll get into the blank check statement when I have more time. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Btw, Bob, if you ever have some free time - and if you already haven't done so, may I suggest you read a book called 1 Dead in Attic by Chris Rose, columnist for the Times-Picayune? It is a day-to-day account of life in N.O. following the hurricane. No, it is not politically biased in any way, either way, and he received a Pulitzer nomination for the book. Karen was kind enough to send it to me and I opened it to read a few pages and put it down after having read the entire book in one sitting. I recommend it highly. The introduction hooked me good and it was non-stop reading after that. It begins like so... Dear America, I suppose we should introduce ourselves: We’re South Louisiana. We have arrived on your doorstep on short notice and we apologize for that, but we never were much for waiting around for invitations. We’re not much on formalities like that. And we might be staying around your town for a while, enrolling in your schools and looking for jobs, so we wanted to tell you a few things about us. We know you didn’t ask for this and neither did we, so we’re just going to have to make the best of it. First of all, we thank you. For your money, your water, your food, your prayers, your boats and buses and the men and women of your National Guards, fire departments, hospitals and everyone else who has come to our rescue. We’re a fiercely proud and independent people, and we don’t cotton much to outside interference, but we’re not ashamed to accept help when we need it. And right now, we need it. Just don’t get carried away. For instance, once we get around to fishing again, don’t try to tell us what kind of lures work best in your waters. We’re not going to listen. We’re stubborn that way. You probably already know that we talk funny and listen to strange music and eat things you’d probably hire an exterminator to get out of your yard. We dance even if there’s no radio. We drink at funerals. We talk too much and laugh too loud and live too large and, frankly, we’re suspicious of others who don’t. But we’ll try not to judge you while we’re in your town. Everybody loves their home, we know that. But we love South Louisiana with a ferocity that borders on the pathological. Sometimes we bury our dead in LSU sweatshirts. Often we don’t make sense. You may wonder why, for instance - if we could only carry one small bag of belongings with us on our journey to your state - why in God’s name did we bring a pair of shrimp boots? We can’t really explain that. It is what it is. You’ve probably heard that many of us stayed behind. As bad as it is, many of us cannot fathom a life outside of our border, out in that place we call Elsewhere. The only way you could understand that is if you have been there, and so many of you have. So you realize that when you strip away all the craziness and bars and parades and music and architecture and all that hooey, really, the best thing about where we come from is us. We are what made this place a national treasure. We’re good people. And don’t be afraid to ask us how to pronounce our names. It happens all the time. When you meet us now and you look into our eyes, you will see the saddest story ever told. Our hearts are broken into a thousand pieces. But don’t pity us. We’re gonna make it. We’re resilient. After all, we’ve been rooting for the Saints for 35 years. That’s got to count for something. OK, maybe something else you should know is that we make jokes at inappropriate times. But what the hell. And one more thing: In our part of the country, we’re used to having visitors. It’s our way of life. So when all this is over and we move back home, we will repay to you the hospitality and generosity of spirit you offer to us in this season of our despair. That is our promise. That is our faith. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
That would have been 1972. And yes this has been going on for that long and longer. It's not all models/makes of mobile homes. And it's not just the mobile homes. Modular offices, cubicles, pods (like the ones they use for extra classrooms on over populated school campuses.) If I'm not mistaken...it's also a chemical used in some carpets and many many other textiles and manufactured goods. I was the only one who had a prolonged reaction or even a sensitivity to the substances in the family and I am very sensitive to whatever chemicals are used in the fabrication of those things today. Formaldehydes? Or glues or dyes? All I know is my eyes burn badly and I begin to have breathing problems and I have to remove myself from the area. Prolonged exposure makes my skin itch and burn and I break out in a horrible rash. I don't wait for the rash to happen. They eye-burn thing is enough warning for me. I had to get permission from the school to take my science class in the library, because it was held in one of those pods. That was in 1982. So, I suppose that's why they haven't done much about it? I was only one in a classroom of 30 kids with a problem? And I think the conditions have to be right? I'm certainly not a scientist, but science matters in these instances because climate, humidity, volume of agent, and sensitivity may have to be just right in order for such to produce adverse affects. I attended high school in Florida. And Louisiana summers aren't mild in temp. Oh and the structure/fabrication has to be NEW...for me. It seems after a while the chemicals dissipate or breakdown with age and I'm not affected. I'm not sure the gov hasn't done anything about it. Maybe they have in some ways but not in others? Anything extreme such as a ban or outlaw of usage usually requires torrential downfalls of brain damage, cancer, and death before there are changes made affecting people within an environment when the majority are not affected. Doesn't it? Yes, I really do feel for those affected by the walls of the only home they have to call home, and I really wish they would find something else friendly to all to hold those walls together. |
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Susan Caldwell Member Rara Avis
since 2002-12-27
Posts 8348Florida |
I won't offer my opinion anymore for reasons that are unimportant. http://www.epa.gov/iaq/formalde.html#Health%20Effects[/URL] Health Effects Formaldehyde, a colorless, pungent-smelling gas, can cause watery eyes, burning sensations in the eyes and throat, nausea, and difficulty in breathing in some humans exposed at elevated levels (above 0.1 parts per million). High concentrations may trigger attacks in people with asthma. There is evidence that some people can develop a sensitivity to formaldehyde. It has also been shown to cause cancer in animals and may cause cancer in humans. Health effects include eye, nose, and throat irritation; wheezing and coughing; fatigue; skin rash; severe allergic reactions. May cause cancer. May also cause other effects listed under "organic gases." EPA's Integrated Risk Information System profile - http://www.epa.gov/iris/subst/0419.htm http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/formaldehyde/ The 11th Report on Carcinogens classifies it as "reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen" http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/01/health/main3987944.shtml?source=related_story[/URL] "The CDC initially said in February 2007 that, with proper ventilation, formaldehyde levels were safe in the short-term. FEMA immediately began citing the advisory as evidence that the trailers were safe." http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/16/tech/main3840261.shtml?source=related_story[/URL] "Test results reported this week by the CDC showed formaldehyde levels in hundreds of FEMA trailers and mobile homes were, on average, about five times higher than what people are exposed to in most modern homes" http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/risk/formaldehyde[/URL] "In 1987, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) classified formaldehyde as a probable human carcinogen under conditions of unusually high or prolonged exposure (1). Since that time, some studies of industrial workers have suggested that formaldehyde exposure is associated with nasal cancer and nasopharyngeal cancer, and possibly with leukemia. In 1995, the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) concluded that formaldehyde is a probable human carcinogen. However, in a reevaluation of existing data in June 2004, the IARC reclassified formaldehyde as a known human carcinogen (2)." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14011193/ http://www.fox16.com/mostpopular/story.aspx?content_id=d9295de1-2695-4c8c-b219-4bebf209ef79[/URL] FEMA is selling some of the trailers.... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/28/AR2008012802429.html[/URL] http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/F5522.htm "The perception of formaldehyde by odor and eye irritation becomes less sensitive with time as one adapts to formaldehyde. This can lead to overexposure if a worker is relying on formaldehyde's warning properties to alert him or her to the potential for exposure." Form your own opinions. "too bad ignorance isn't painful" ~Unknown~ |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
quote: Were we talking about states with more left handed people, Balladeer? If we were, I'd have to say it was highly significant, especially if there was extensive prior history of, say, the current President being governor of this state suspiciously packed with left-handed people, or the President's brother being governor of the other state being packed with left handed people. Or the president's administration have worked closely with the former U.S. Speaker of the House to Gerrymander the electoral districts of the President's former state to favor the election of left handed people to the U.S. House of Representatives. Yes, balladeer, I'd have to say that was significant. I am honored to be speaking to somebody who believes in the honor of governments and that they would not make a decision on the basis of the party of the governor. I don't want to say anything here that would question that belief for you. I would like to be able to believe that again myself some day. quote: Heavens, Balladeer, what do you want? I start off saying that New Orleans has a bad reputation for corruption. Are you trying to suggest that if it's the worst that somehow it deserves the ill treatment it's been dealt not only by nature, but by the government as well? Exactly what's your point here? You went to High School in Northern Louisiana and they were sure that Southern Louisiana was the worst place in the country. In Ohio, where I was born, we were sure that Cleveland and Columbus took those prizes. When I lived in Ithaca, New York, you could be sure to hear the exact same rap about the corruption in New York City, not to mention Washington. New Orleans was just someplace you went on holiday to have a great time. In Iowa City, Iowa, everyone thought Iowa City, Iowa was the pit. Kansas City had a similar reputation well into the sixties. When I lived in Montreal, Toronto was boring and corrupt and—worst of all—English. After the language wars, Toronto thought that Montreal was narrow, corrupt and nasty and was sure that they were the most cosmopolitan city in North America. How are you going to measure corruptness when corruptness becomes a matter of bizarre municipal pride? quote: (The bold text above is mine.) You can't have it both ways, Balladeer. I haven't researched Nagin at all. But Blanco cannot be charged with doing nothing before and during, with coming out of her shell afterward only to demand money AND handling it her own way by showing Democrats can take care of their own without help from george Bush. In fact it was her job to demand money and she and the other governors did it. It was the job of the Federal Government to use funds set aside for that sort of stuff or funds that they knew would be earmarked for that sort of stuff to supply that money and other forms of aid. You seem to make her doing that job sound underhanded. You certainly don't suggest that other Republican governors doing the same thing is anything else but business as usual. It is business as usual for natural disasters. There was never any question of Democrats or anybody for that matter being able "to do it on their own," and pretty much everyone knew it. Why the congress and the President cut the funding for the Army Corps of Engineers to repair the levees and keep the pumps healthy when the information about the vulnerability of New Orleans was known, however, was inexcusable. I'll try to find the book you make reference to. The writing looks great. Yours, BobK. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Were we talking about states with more left handed people, Balladeer? No, bob, we were talking about selective finger-pointing. The Democrats, and apparently you since you found the desire to quote them, decided to claim states which were supposedly Republican, got better treatment for that reason. You can use left-handed, red-headed, or blue-blooded to get whatever result you want to encourage. Doesn't make it so. Btw, I said supposedly because, even though Bush's brother was the head of Florida, southern Florida, where the majority of the damage occurred is strictly Democratic. Dade (Miami), Broward (Ft. Lauderdale) and Palm Beach counties have consistently voted democratic since time began....believe it. Heavens, Balladeer, what do you want? I start off saying that New Orleans has a bad reputation for corruption. Are you trying to suggest that if it's the worst that somehow it deserves the ill treatment it's been dealt not only by nature, but by the government as well? Exactly what's your point here? Yes, sir, you did start off saying that....and then followed it with... I'm not at all sure that they're more extensive, however, than similar problems in Massachusetts, or Texas, or Florida, or Illinois or Missouri or any of a bunch of other states who will gladly tell you stories of the convoluted levels of corruption in their state and municipal governments. So they are corrupt but not any moreso than basically any other state, according to you. I don't see where any of those states have anywhere near the national reputation for crime and corruptness that New Orleans has. What do I want, Bob? A statement without a big BUT behind it. How are you going to measure corruptness when corruptness becomes a matter of bizarre municipal pride? So if the residents are proud of their corruptness there's no way for it to be measured? That's quite a statement there. You can't have it both ways, Balladeer. (relating to Blanco) Of course I can. Blanco did NOT do anything except to claim the Democrats could handle it....perhaps through some metaphysical power, perhaps? Why the congress and the President cut the funding for the Army Corps of Engineers to repair the levees and keep the pumps healthy when the information about the vulnerability of New Orleans was known, however, was inexcusable. Well, which President are you referring to? New Orleans was told over 40 years ago that the levees had to be redone. They were given government funds to do so. A fair amount of that money went into the pockets of the political powers in control over decades. There are links in the other threads I mentioned concerning this and many other points relating to Blanco and Nagin. If it behooves you or anyone to go the finger-pointing route at the national government, go ahead. Louisiana and New Orleans governments have alway known that the city was a disaster waiting to happen. The levees were not able to handle such a storm, there were no evacuation plans made, no auxillary power set-ups for hospitals and necessary utilities and no organization of exactly what to do in such a case. Why not? I can only assume that each administration figured it wouldn't happen during their moment in the sun so they didn't worry about it. Yes, that's just my opinion but it seems to fit the bill. Could FEMA have done a better job? Absolutely. I've never seen any disaster of this magnitude in which all goverment agencies ran smoothly and did not screw up in one way or another. Have you? Listening to the Democrats, though, the real disaster was not the hurricane but the actions of Bush and FEMA. Did FEMA do ANYTHING right? Not according to democrats. I beg to differ and I have little doubt that, if Slick Willie had been sitting in the Oval office, the Democrats would have praised FEMA's actions lavishly. But here they had another opportunity - and they are not a party known to miss an opportunity - to bash Bush and they took advantage of it, largely, I will claim, to cover up their own failures in this tragedy. The best defense is always a good offense, right? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
smile... It's very sweet of you to consider my health, but I passed the cardiolite, though I'm sure that will be on the agenda again soon. (They seem to want one for every surgery--it's annoying.) I have some evidence of lung damage (that's new but hardly surprising) my liver has some fatty deposits, but no scarring, no lesions. My pancreas seems to have no aberrations from the results of my last MRI, but my gallbladder kicks like chitty chitty bang bang--so I have to go find me another specialist for that. I did have an extended case of shingles, aggravated by a bacterial infection, as well as various stressful triggers including family deaths and Katrita. (We must'n't forget Hurricane Rita-I know I won't.) My liver enzymes are still "beautiful", much to everyone's dismay and amazement (? I dunno. I thought it was cause to celebrate m'self.) My lungs are remarkably clear (those are the doc's words not mine) and I um, have excellent lung capacity--for now. I do have post-herpetic neuralgia in my left leg, which limits my mobility. (I fall down. I get up though. I'm a working on being a weeble.) And sorry to dispel the rumors,(which I confess I did nothing to dispel) but even my lithium levels and all those other brainy chemicals are within range. (One does not throw as many temper tantrums in doctors' offices without sparking a little curiousity about yer head.) Lessee, what else? I'm overweight, so that makes me uncomfortable and yes, I do have some cardiovascular issues--probably from sitting in this chair, smoking too many cigarettes, and lounging over there-->in bed. But? My blood pressure was perfect, but yes, sweet B'deer, like everybody else's, it fluctuates. It's only due to the shingles and my apparent perpetual proclivity to pox, I'm supposed to be..um, serene. I'm on St. John's Wort, Valerian, Toradol, Norco, and Gabapentin (both for nerve damage and mood swings). OH. And occasional Lysine, and for some reason? Vitamin K--again. Remind me to ask about that one. And yes, sometimes I get upset. It goes away. Sometimes I'm happy. That goes away too. It's all very cyclic. But I don't mind discussion about Katrina. I do mind pointless partisanship finger-pointing. I'm all for finding out what really happened, just so that it won't happen to....ya'll. (Or even me again, because I am looking around for a cave.) I'd to clear up that the toxic shock occurred when I pulled up moldy carpet with no respiratory protection--before Katrina, in another house that had a slow plumbing leak. It was misdiagnosed as a form arthritis, and I was injected with doses of steroids, which I stopped in mid-treatment through sheer will and stupidy. Steroid Withdrawals are worse than heroin. I had a few other problems (one of which I really underestimated, but I'm stacking the dominoes back up one at a time.I tell you all of this to let you know that I think I can handle this. *chuckling* When I get upset--I'll quaff down some Valerian and go read my Eckhardt Tolle. So yes, please do proceed. I'm enjoying help with the fact finding, and I think I can sort out my opinion out of the fray. Mike? Thank you for quoting my guy, Chris Rose. He said it best. We are resilient. My opinion of Blanco is tepid, but I give her nods for doing her job in an incredibly difficult situation. I don't think I would have given up control of The National Guard either. I am also pleased that her efforts afforded Louisiana a greater portion of profits from their natural resources, so that we can indeed pull ourselves up by the white straps of our own shrimp boots. The fact that we have screamed about our eroding coastline for years, and the convenience that the Federal Government actually profited from that by grabbing more maritime oil resources from our offshore wells has annoyed me a bit for...a couple of decades now. I duly note my rage at the disappearance of "Mayor" Ray Nagin, but it is second only to the five day inaction by President Bush. I'm a little ticked at everybody when it came to that. It was a dismal and heartbreaking scenario for the entire world to watch bodies floating in an American City, while a clusterduck of beauracracy waited for orders and direction from...no one. I'm incredulous that we refused monetary assistance from foreign countries simply because there was no precedented plan on how to utilize that. (I thought it could rebuild a few houses, but what do I know?) I believe our Coast Guard had it together though. They didn't wait for orders. They just um, saw people in trouble and picked them and brought them to higher ground. Seemed logical to me too. I was embarrassed that local governments were just as addled and confused, but I guess it's no more embarrassing than messing up a Presidential Election. (Bob? I was gonna bring that up, but you beat me to it. *shrug* I gave myself a break and went to see Sex in The City. *chuckle* So sue me.) What amazes me is that we did have a plan in place--for the very first time--to evacuate the city of New Orleans. It would have worked if the poverty stricken folk hadn't been completely disregarded. I still think it worked remarkably well, even after spending 17 hours in a traffic jam. *shrug* We're so far south we're in dah watah. So that's to be expected. What confounds me to this day is that there was no apparent plan as to what to do with the population of New Orleans once they were removed from the city. Apparently all of this was anticipated, except for that. And the incredible idea that people would actually want to return home wasn't considered either--because we very nearly had nothing to come home to. Like what happened in Gulfport. They took our "bullet" and my heart is with my Mississippi friends as well. The Redneck Riviera happens to be part of what I call "home". (I mean, the band must have hit every roadhouse from here to thar...) But the whole of the story, I can't write in one night. I have trouble writing a coherent story when I don't have direction to the end--so right now, all I have is...anecdote. Y'see? I had contact with people who had remained, and I still wanted to come home. I know I said otherwise, but it's like the old playing card, "There is a tie that binds us to our homes.". Have no doubts that a very small war occurred in New Orleans during those days. There were vigilante groups roaming the flooded back streets, and I know this, but smile, short term memory loss on names. *karen taps her head and winks* The problems of generational poverty and resulting racism, crime, political corruption on all levels was revealed, and I believe that this historical storm will go down in the history books as one of the sorriest points of the Bush Administration. No, I don't think he created Katrina, Mike. But he contributed to the chaos by doing nothing, and his own cronyism was revealed when his friends proved to be inept at everything but how to look better on tv. The trailers were not a surprise to me. And ironically, it was in a trailer that I found refuge from the storm. (I prayed to find a place to go that no one else would think of...nod--a trailer park!) Hey...it worked. So thank you all, truly, for your contributions and opinions. I happen to think they all matter and are equally legitimate. But I doubt seriously if it's going to change the life-altering pivot of that storm, and how an entire culture became an anachronism overnight. (Um, Chris Rose said the same thing--but I do believe I posted that in this forum before the publication of his column. So *chuckling*--you were right about that Mike--Mr. Rose and I do think alike.) So keep on it. It's important. And all of this underscores my point, that we need to stop throwing money into an optional war, and start putting some money into good housekeeping. Our roads, our bridges, our levees, our dams, our coastlines, indiscriminate logging practices, all of which add up to a bit of sighing, ecology. And "Green" should not become a dirty word, as "liberal" did, and yes, Bob, the insiduous degradation of the terminlogy of Democrat and Democratic. (note on partisanship: cheer for your team, it's expected, but please assure me the point is not to DESTROY the opponent--I happen to like a two-party system.) I think a little rational self-interest is now apparently, very much in order. (Hey...don't blame me--I am your creation.)  *peace* post script: It was suggested that a good psychologist might be in order, later on down the road. When such services are more readily available. (The majority of the onslaught of therapists that came to the apparently came here to just um, "study" us. I guess they finished their papers, because now they are for the most part, gone. My doc says that since I have a bed, and no immediate cause to vacate, I should take advantage of it, and get some R.E.M. Which I'm not doing at the moment, but on the upside of a nervous breakdown, is "New Rules"--I get to do pretty much what I want--as long as it is within guidelines. g'nite. *smile* oh. Good MORNING. OH. One more thing? I'm just one little story amongst thousands. I don't feel sorry for me, but I do have moments of rage. But I always did. I just didn't express them. I consider it all a blessing. If I can live through this, digest it, and come out better, and stronger than it is a blessing. Pressure turns coal to diamond. So perhaps there's hope for me. *sparkle* and *peace* and UNITY |
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water_stained_wisdom Junior Member
since 2008-03-07
Posts 28 |
quote: ohlovelylovie ... you aint neva lied. (you sparkled long before Katrina and will long after) *** "this cyber medium is over-run with keyboard poets & prophets who believe their every word to be profound" -internet quote- |
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Susan Caldwell Member Rara Avis
since 2002-12-27
Posts 8348Florida |
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/04/fema.standoff.ap/index.html sad irony. "too bad ignorance isn't painful" |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Balladeer, I’m not trying to be offensive here, Mike. If the discussion means that I have hurt your feelings or that I’m going to hurt your feelings by stepping into places you’d rather not talk about, I’ll happily bow out, make any concessions you’d like me to make and say nothing more about it. I’d rather keep your friendship than win an argument. In fact I’d rather make a point of keeping it on the level of a discussion as much as possible. If you find what I say offensively phrased, let me know, and let me know how. I’ll try to put it more precisely, in line with the facts as I understand them. In some places, I think we’re simply quibbling for the sake of quibbling. How terrible are state and local politics in Louisiana, for example? If you want to call them the worst in the country, and I want to say they’re merely terrible and it upsets you that I’m not in agreement with you, simply consider me in agreement as of now. About Ray Nagin, I don’t know Ray Nagin. Same things I see us as still having disagreements about. About Governor Blanco, I still believe you contradict yourself when you say she did nothing but wait for the money to flow in and say that she wanted to prove the Democrats could handle it by themselves. These two statements contradict each other. We know that she wrote to the President and asked for aid 48 hours before the Hurricane landed. We know that Mr. Browne tried to lie about that and had to eat his words. When you say “Blanco did NOT do anything except claim the Democrats could handle it...” I think you are wrong. (The part of your statement I elided, by the way, was “perhaps through some metaphysical power, perhaps?” It wasn’t to the point; but I was struck that some might feel I was taking you out of context.) I am told that if the government didn’t approve of her method of handling the matter, there exist legal overrides for the posse comitatus rule that would have allowed the state efforts to have been federalized. If the Administration had felt that she was doing as poor a job as you report, it would be yet another failure on their part not to have done so, wouldn’t it? In fact this government has seemed to find a series of scapegoats for virtually every problem that has arisen on its watch. This is not, by the way a problem I believe is a problem particular to Republicans, who as a whole are as straightforward and standup a bunch of folk as I have run across. It is a problem with these people, who somehow have the nerve to call themselves Republicans. When 241 (I hope I’ve gotten the number down correctly) American servicemen were murdered in Beirut, the state department prepared a press release for President Reagan blaming the Military for its unpreparedness. Reagan wouldn’t sign it. He gave a press conference in which he assumed full responsibility for the situation, though I believe he had much less to do with those deaths than President Bush has to do with these. He acted the way a leader should act in a time of crisis. Even as a Democrat, and one who is not particularly admiring of President Reagan in general, I acknowledge his nobility of character there. Are you trying to tell me that had there been an Eisenhower, a Rockefeller, a Stassen, a Goldwater, or even a Powell in office we would be having this discussion? I’m not even talking about a Democrat here, I’m talking about a Republican with a clear sense of character and responsibility. You keep trying to frame this as a Democratic versus Republican quarrel. It may look that way at times, I know; and I know that the way I talk about it sometimes makes it sound that way. But I don’t want my own personal bias to be lost in the shuffle, I want everybody aware that I’m not neutral, though I try to be even-handed in talking about this stuff. And the people who are in power and who are making the majority of the mistakes right now are Republican by name, and I’m addressing them as they’ve asked to be addressed. I try not to confuse them with the people in the paragraph above this one. You shopuld have heard me during the Vietnam War. I was angry at LBJ at the time, and for good reason, though I admire a lot about him now as well. Civil rights and poverty ahd Headstart programs among them. This isn’t about Democrats versus Republicans. Tell me, if the current Administration’s efforts were so marvelous, where is the prospering city of New Orleans today to show for the fruit of those efforts five full years later? What has happened to the return of the population to the revitalized city that Bush promised? What about the flood of new development to the gulf coast in general? There could be a whole new City of New Orleans there now, with surrounding protective wetlands extending out into the gulf. There could be levees designed to stand against a force Five hurricane, and pumps with backup power. Not to mention all those things that you believe could be done even better in states that are even more Republican. You’ve got loads of democrats williung to vote in both the house and the senate for bills to help rebuild the South. It would be good not only for the south in general, but for the economy of the south, and it would build up a lot of good-will for the democrats at election time down there, don’t you think? So where you you think the money’s going? When I spoke about the vulnerability of the levees in New Orleans, I was speaking about this administration, since none of us are very good with time travel, and affecting anything 40 years old seems difficult at best. My understanding, though, is that the problems go back even as far as 1938, which is even further than you suggest, and which places even more of it of Democratic shoulders. Unless you want to say that the Democrats in Louisiana at the time were the same people who found their ideological home with the Republicans in 1964 and 1968 when the civil rights legislation passed. At that point, the Republicans welcomed them with open arms, as I recall, and any legitimate claim that the Republicans had on being the party of Lincoln joined Lincoln himself in the grave. I can tell you, it a lot simpler for me to be a Democrat after that happened. Now today’s Republican’s have to do the same contortions that yesterday’s Democrats had to do; I don’t wish them on anybody. Sincerely yours, BobK. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Balladeer, The use of the phrase "Slick Willie" as a disparaging insult for former President Clinton does little to further the discussion. Were this the outcome of President Clinton's actions, you would hear my criticism as clearly as you do now about President Bush's. We have no such reality to consider. And being a completely hypothetical supposition, it threatens to shift the discussion from the actual actions of President Bush and his Department of Homeland Security under whose supervision FEMA functioned to some insubstantial and insupportable realm of unreality. Your case for the excellence of President Bush, The Department of Homeland Security, and FEMA cannot be so weak that you would wish to discuss fantasy rather than talk about what actually happened. That would mean that you would be more interested in winning a silly argument than in arriving at a fair understanding of the facts. That is not like you, Balladeer. What is the difference between FEMA under Clinton and Under Bush? It is too complex to discuss in a short discussion, but one difference stands out among others: The importance that Clinton Placed on the Agency itself versus the importance that Bush places on it now. Clinton thought that FEMA was an important part of the responsibility of the government, especially the disaster-relief aspects of it. He made the head of FEMA a Cabinet level post with direct access to the President and he funded it well. He downplayed the security aspects of its original Carter-era mandate and emphasized the disaster-relief aspects of the organization. Not only did Clinton talk about all this, he put money into it as well. He put his money where his mouth was. Bush, by way of contrast, took FEMA out of the Cabinet and placed it under The Department of Homeland Security. He loaded the organization up with people who knew little or nothing about disaster relief and demoted many of those who knew what the actual job of disaster relief was about and how to do it. He saw it as a security agency under the aegis of The Department of Homeland Security and he cut its funding. Those are major contrasts. I feel that the dual mandate of FEMA was perhaps a mistake from the beginning, one that might perhaps be laid at Jimmy Carter's door. I wish I had more details to help me understand the basic thinking about this. Certainly security issues are an important factor in disaster relief, especially if there are military or intelligence aspects to the disaster. The agency should not have to vacillate in emphasis back and forth between the poles of its original mandate when there is a shift in party control of the administration. That is something that deserves correction by both parties. Getting caught on the wrong foot, given this situation, was inevitable. The fact that it happened with a bunch of Republicans in office this time is probably as close to accidental as it's possible to get; it could have been a problem with sarin in Cincinnati during a Democratic Administration. Then the Democrats would be in trouble. What was not inevitable was taking FEMA out of Cabinet Level status. Post Katrina studies concluded that FEMA needed direct cabinet level access to the President and were kind enough not to mention that President Bush had taken that status away only a few years beforehand. It was not inevitable that FEMA be staffed with people who had no clue about how to handle disaster relief work and who weren't even very good liars. It was not inevitable that blame allocated anyplace but at the top, where blame belongs. And it was not inevitable that once the disaster was over, that relief efforts stall completely and that three years after the disaster the situation has not been remedied. You can try to blame whoever you want, but I think Harry Truman had it right when he said, "The buck stops here." John Kennedy, three months after taking office, watched the invasion of Cuba fall apart. He could have blamed Eisenhower. He could have blamed the C.I.A. He could have blamed the Cuban exile community. There was no shortage of candidates, should a President be in the business of looking for candidates. In Operation Overlord, the invasion of Normandy, Eisenhower had a note for release to the press should the invasion have not gone well. He could have blamed any of the usual suspects. He chose to take responsibility himself. When it went off well, he gave credit to the troops. Contrast that with the current administration. I cannot recall the current administration ever actually admitting to mistakes, though I'm certain my memory must be flawed in this regard. I cannot recall our current President actually voicing regrets over anything that was his responsibility in public. I cannot imagine you would like me to continue this litany and I frankly have not stomach for it. Respectfully, BobK. |
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Balladeer
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Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Bob, please don't think I take your comments as being offensive (with the exception of the one I mentioned previously) or that my feelings are going to be hurt by anything said here. My feelings don't get hurt easily, assuming i have some. Our discussions are spirited and, yes, biased to one side or the other but that's to be expected. Perhaps, one day, we should do the Ride a Pale Horse routine, where you try to prove how Bush is an excellent president and I try to prove him to be a bad one. I'll try to respond to everything you have said above when I have time, whenever that is. There are just two things I will say for now. First, when discussing FEMA's actions and the differences between reconstruction in Mississippi, Texas, Florida and New Orleans, one seems to forget that N.O. was a city completely underwater. I have never claimed that FEMA's actions were spectacular but imagine the incredible logistical nightmare under those conditions, far different than Mississippi. Why haven't citizens returned? The fact is many of them don't want to. They have made that claim publicly...sort of like hitting oneself in the head with a hammer. It doesn't hurt until you stop. They didn't realize how bad the conditions were there with the crime and corruption until they were finally out of there. Second..I have made the concession that I will use the word democratic instead of democrat because you have stated it offends you. No problem there. But don't ever expect me to stop referring to Clinton as Slick Willie. It is a title he richly deserves.  |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
How Karl Rove played politics while people drowned http://www.salon.com/books/excerpt/2008/06/06/rove_katrina/ [This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (06-06-2008 06:01 PM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Nothing like an article from an unbiased rag...thank you! |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
The entire city was not underwater. But don't you think that FEMA could have found a way to get either some people on the ground to secure the Superdome and send supplies to those who were suffering? Airdrops to countries we'd bombed in WWII weren't unheard of, Mike. Again, I'm not even remotely trained for emergency situations, but the obvious is still obvious. The shootings at the relief helicopters were overplayed. (When you watch something on the news, folks, look for signs of "looping". What looked like dozens of incidents was actually one.) There was incident of shooting, but the intent was more benign according to one man who was questioned later who admitted that it wasn't the smartest thing he'd done, but he was firing his gun to get attention--as waving seemed to be fruitless. (Now don't go twisting that into a defense of that--but I maintain that we can all sit here and say how we'd behave in such a situation, but in the fray, all intention is for naught anyhow.) There were shootings that were downplayed, such as those on Danziger bridge. I'd like to clear up a little something about the behavior of local authorities on the bridge of the West Bank of New Orleans. Racism may have played a part in that, but it was a matter of lesser of two evils. Had those people been allowed to proceed down into the neighborhoods, they would have been met with less kindness than what had been shown to them by the authorities. For one thing, there was a riot going on at the bottom of one those ramps, where our local mall was burnt to the ground when people were denied entrance. As I stated before, there was a war going on, and the police were not entirely innocent. But yet, in all of the interviews I'd seen, I never heard mention that there were indeed buses waiting for those who managed that long walk to the Westbank. Why those people could not have been actually been picked up from the superdome, is a failure of local government and lack of cooperation that I can point a finger at as a warning of what happens when you allow partisanship to over-ride unity and the common good. There were buses, food, rides to the Alario Center in Westwego, La. where more bigger, better buses were lined up to bring them to various places of refuge. That makes it all sound very decent and civilized, but in many instances families were seperated. I'm not just talking about "ooops, we lost Uncle Fred." Children were seperated from their mothers, sometimes sent to different STATES, because in the chaos, people were ordered on buses by gunpoint. Sounds more like the Nazi's, doesn't it? But I have some sympathy too, because like I said, it was a war. Every pawn shop, "sporting goods" store, any place that had guns? They were all "hit." As the days passed, I can't say I blame some of the cops who just left town, since they felt abandoned by higher authority as well. Scores were being settled amongst gangs as well as gangs and law enforcement. It was the perfect time to make an enemy "disappear." Nobody would ever know...unless they knew. FEMA could have done whatever President Bush ordered them to do. But instead, Bush wanted to play hardball with Blanco over control of the National Guard. I don't believe any governor was ever asked to give up control, and that's why I say Blanco was in an unwinnable situation. She would have been criticized if she had done so, and I would have been one of them that did. By the way, Louisiana did not receive their Federal relief money until after the governor's election. After the people voted in REPUBLICAN Bobby Jindal. See? Still smiling. And I'm gonna go lay down, but not because I'm upset, there's this movie on IFC that looks pretty good... It's about poetry. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Thanks for the input, serenity. You saw things in a way - an accurate one - that we who were not there can only piece together from whatever information was released. I'm sure a lot of it was overblown, like the shooting at the helicopters. I recall that there were much-publicized rapes occuring at the superdome, also, which turned out to be hoaxes. It's almost like Iraq. The soldiers there tell a completely different story than the newspapers and politicians do. I think FEMA could have done, more, too. I'd like to hear, however, when you say they would have done anything Bush would have told them to do.....what should Bush have told them to do - in a realistic and not Monday morning quarterbacking way? I'd sincerely be interested in knowing. Air-dropped supplies (like the UN is not doing now in Africa)? Ok, good. What else, from one who lived through it and saw what more was needed? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
All I have, after the obvious, is retrospect. Better handling of the monies that were dispersed is right there on top. But I do hope that some of those minds better than mine have already made a list of "coulda woulda shoulda" dones. In the spirit of non-partisanship, I think FEMA should abide by their name. Federal Emergency Management. I think that Fema's objectives should remain to make emergencies---non-emergencies. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
That's one thing that always puzzled and bothered me - why didn't Bush order FEMA or the military to drop supplies of water and MRE's when there were people in the Superdome and Convention Center begging for both? It seemed like it was days before we saw the first crates of bottled water being brought in. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Jen? The only explanation I've ever heard was that they were afraid of starting a riot.  UNBELIEVABLE |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
...and you find it unbelievable that it wouldn't have started a riot, Karen? Why? Because of the gangs were busy looting every store in New Orleans? Or because everyone in the superdome would have patiently waited in line for someone in authority to pass out rations of food to them? Now THAT'S unbelievable.... You made the statement that FEMA would have done whatever Bush told them to do. I asked what Bush should have told them to do and your answer is to make emergencies non-emergencies? Could you be a little more specific? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
c'mon Mike...THERE YOU GO AGAIN. WHY do you persist in this? You take one part of an argument and make it hyperbole. I didn't say what you said I said. I was talking about what was going on in the suburbs of the Metro New Orleans Area. (And being kind to your point of view in the process too.) If you are going to equate hungry, thirsty people with the OPPORTUNISTS (legal and illegal) then you are indeed worthy of whacking the Bush. I know you are smarter than this. I know you know tactics, I know you know that dropping aid provisions isn't like dropping a damned bomb. Let's drop some water RIGHT ON those sumwitches? Just stop it. We all know damned well it could have been done and should have been done and wasn't. There was a way in too, btw. You know this area, not quite as well as I do, but you know that there was a way out, so there was a way IN. (Highway 90, folks) We needed people there, on the ground, and that was the ball dropped by the ridiculous Mayor Ray Nagin, who was ducking and covering on the 17th floor of the Hyatt. If you want me to go into the ALL of the projections of FEMA'S goals, I'll start where we are: RECOVERY Now I'll ask you: 85 percent of New Orleans pre-Katrina was private business. How do you replace that? (How about low-interest small business loans?) The fact that we existed as long as we did as we were is a testamony to our strength and reslience--our ONLY Fortune 500 company post-Katrina, ENTERGY claimed bankruptcy, btw. Let's talk about insurance adjustment too. Don't you think it's ridiculous that there are abandoned houses on my street while we have a housing crunch? Who is profitting? People with money to play "monopoly" that's who. I wish you wouldn't tick me off by playing dumb, lovie. You know damned well that provisions and supervision could have been provided. And given a choice, I think I would rather have provisions to fight for than none at all. As a friend abroad put it to me, the whole world watched to see how the United States would handle this in their usual manner of "over-done" and were in shock when underdone was the order of the day. Or should we make that days?  |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
sigh You asked for no "armchair quarterbacking" and then proceed to prompt me to do just that. I've got news. It ain't over. We're still hurting. Our government ignorned us, on every level. I want to thank my friends, who, despite party affiliation, helped me out personally. Mike happens to be at the top of my list. Second only to Mysteria who managed, from Canada, to talk to members of my family I hadn't talked to in a year or so. Forgive my passion if I don't consider my personal good fortune good enough. Forgive me if the fact that I am safe enough for now, unreassuring. My family and I were treated well, with a small town eye kept close upon us to make sure we were one of the "friendlies". *rubbing my head* (Thank you Herb & Sharon, and thank you Michael Frugier, for giving us a safe place to be, and for having a grandfather that built a place that could survive Rita as well.) For a minute though, look at this:  Katrina She's actually beautiful, with some distance. Mother Nature's Menopausal Orgasm. I can respect that. Now imagine it happening twice. We rode out Rita in a rice field. We decided to "steal" home after that'n. And btw? There was some discussion as to why rubber rafts and flotation devices weren't airdropped (Mike? Just the fact that this was discussed tells me that it was do-able.) Jen? The answer to that one was the rubber rafts were rubber and not made for navigating hurricane debris. Well I guess Mother Nature is the mothah of invention:  Mike? I wondered so many times what Bush had to do, how low he had to sink to lose his party loyalty and Katrina gave us the answer: NOTHING. Thank God/dess it's almost over. |
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Jaime Fradera Senior Member
since 2000-11-25
Posts 843Where no tyranny is tolerable |
If Sunshine wasn't a constituent of former representative Dick Edlund, who, after doing a stint in the Kansas Legislature, ran a business selling feed to Kansas stockmen, and is now president of our deaf-blind division, she is at the very least a tough old crone who has with stood all the nasty bleeding Kansas has ever thrown her. Maybe she has been too busy putting back together what a harsh and unforgiving Nature has destroyed, and has not had time to write to FEMA or complain about the President or even blame God. And she is absolutely right. It is all too easy to be a victim of some real or imagined agency. In fact, at one time in my life, and perhaps even now, I were one. The hardest thing to do, indeed the only thing to do, is to take on whatever it is that isn't being done, because unless somebody does it, it will not get done and nothing will happen. It is true that bad things happen to good people, that at times events take place witch, like cosmic steam-rollers, bury masses of dead before them. But in the greater scheme of things, the dead don't really matter, except as they live on in memories and monuments. And no, often we will never know why whatever happened happened, why so many had to lose their lives. The truth is that life is harsh; life is unfair; and it is going to stay that way, and that we can choose either to just get use to it or get use to it; because the alternative is suicide. Being victim is just a state of mind, and has nothing whatever to do with what happens to us; in other words, we can choose whether or not to be victims. If you choose not to be a victim, if you decide to give um hell instead, nothing and no one can seduce, intimidate, control or frighten you (not even Obama) unless they manage to kill you first, and even then, it will be said of you that you died fighting, or you died to save others from the twin towers. But whatever happens to others, we who are still living have our lives and have each other. For as long as we are living, we have a choice the dead will never know. We can do what sunshine does every hour of every day, or we could put a bullet through our heads. I will not bug you with a laundry list of my accomplishments, since I don't have any. I will not tell you how many times a cruel, uncaring fait has stripped me of everything so dear to me, because there are others like me in our Federation too. And no doubt there are worse horrors yet in store for me. Will I make it? Will I get through? Will I be hit by a drunk driver today on the was to the grocery store? I don't have time to see if Obama is going to take me. He might want me to go hungry, too. I just don't know. But maybe they will write of me that I died fighting ... or maybe they won't ... And Karen, Oh sweet serenity! as for the 200 bodies in the morgue, Serenity DOES care about them. It's probably more care than they got when they were living. But now, the are the envy of the whole dam universe. They have the love of Karen! |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Alright...lawsy... Jaime? *shakin' my head* Pay attention folks, 'cause this doesn't happen often. I ain't gonna scream it either, it's just this: "Uncle." I'd wave a white flag but that's called second-linin' here. But....  I do happen to have a .38! Dorothy surrenders. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I wish you wouldn't tick me off by playing dumb, lovie. I never play dumb, Serenity. I am dumb by nature! Low interest business loans? Insurance adjustments? I wasn't aware that they were part of FEMA. If they are, well, what can you expect from a dummy? .Yes, Karen, things could have been handled better, as they could in any situation with such a broad scope. Just perhaps those helicopters, after getting reports that one was being fired on, didn't understand that, after all was over, one distraught idiot would claim he was just having a bad day. They actually took the shooting seriously, maybe. Blame them, not him. So what did FEMA do that was good? I've seen no news of anything they did that was noteworthy or helpful at all. This does not surprise me at all. It's no different than the Democrats and press refusing to point out anything good that has happened in Iraq, despite countless soldiers coming back speaking of how proud they were of the good things being done there. Yes, a lot of it is just political garbage. You have one of the most destructive storms to hit the county. You have people hurting and hungry and you have Bush as president. For the democrats, who had continually tried to pin every ill in the world on Bush for half a decade only to watch them disintegrate under scrutiny, this was indeed the perfect storm in more ways than one. Everything that was wrong was FEMA's fault, which means everything that was wrong was Bush's fault. Show me one arrticle which praises anything FEMA did during this tragedy, if you can. We seem to have this affinity for blaming someone for everything that happens and, if it carries political overtones, so much the better. 9-11? Not that satisfying screaming at Bin-Laden. He's not standing there in front of us....but the government is. Blame them. Talk about how it should have been prevented and how they dropped the ball. Come up with conspiracy theories how Bush was behind it all. File thousands of lawsuits and demand cash. Katrina? Can't scream at an act of nature. Blame it on FEMA, Bush, the military. They are an appropriate substitute. To your credit, Karen, you also included the idiocy of Nagin and the local police departments, but you are one of the few. Blame, blame, blame. That's what we have become a nation of. Speak of only the bad you can find and ignore the good, if it doesn't fit your personal or political agenda. Know what I found interesting, as a side note? Yesterday, June 6th, there was not one post, not one poem, one topic or one comment referring to D-Day and the tens of thousands of soldiers who gave their lives to keep countries free. Not one....and it doesn't surprise me a bit. Does it mean people are anti-military now?. Oh, no. They will say they fully support the military in the same tone they will used when saying "I have lots of black friends!" after making a racial remark. It's just not fashionable, I suppose, to say anything pro-military these days or give any credit where it may be due. The baseball coach of the University of Miami went to Iraq recently and, upon returning, said the one constant thing he heard from the soldiers about what they feared most was what the people back home would think of them. I can fully understand that, too. So keep playing the blame game if you (figuratively) like and ignore anything positive, whether it be FEMA, Bush, the military or anything, if it makes you happy or gives you some form of satisfaction. Personally I don't see how it can......... |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Getting back to the subject at hand.... Associated Press - May 28, 2008 4:33 PM ET BAKER, La. (AP) - The Federal Emergency Management Agency is trying to close its last six trailer parks from Hurricane Katrina by Sunday. Nearly 440 families are still occupying trailers at the six Louisiana group sites, and FEMA estimates that about 380 of them will still be in place Sunday. Officials say they won't evict anyone, but the goal remains to try to get everyone out as quickly as possible. One reason is that hurricane season begins Sunday. However, much of the urgency for moving the families stems from worries about potentially hazardous levels of formaldehyde in the trailers. Most families moving out are eligible for federally subsidized housing assistance until next March. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
http://www.nbc15online.com/news/loca...c-9df40291edd4 BILOXI, MS) June 3 -- What are people who receive FEMA assistance doing to help themselves? That's the question NBC 15's Andrea Ramey asked those who have been staying for free in hotel rooms after they moved out of FEMA supplied travel trailers. What she found out is there are some who are doing very little. The scorching heat puts many at the Quality Inn poolside, but for Gwenester Malone, she chooses to beat the heat by setting her thermostat to sixty degrees. Malone's room for the past three months, along with three meals daily, have all been paid for by taxpayers. "Do you work?" asked NBC 15's Andrea Ramey. "No. I'm not working right now," said Malone. Malone says she can't drive and it's too hot outside to find work within walking distance. "Since the storm, I haven't had any energy or pep to go get a job, but when push comes to shove, I will," said Malone. Just a few blocks away, Kelley Christian also stays at a hotel for free. She says she's not taking advantage of her situation, but admits it's easy to do. "It's too easy. You know, once you're there, you don't have to pay rent," said Christian. "I kept putting it off and putting it off and now, I'm tired of putting it off." She says she'll be out of the hotel and in an apartment by the end of the month. Push came to shove for Christian when police found a meth lab in a hotel room directly below her. "All kind of people in white suits pulled all kind of chemicals out here. There was enough to line up about three cars worth of chemicals. It scared the heck of me," said Christian. Taxpayers also paid for that meth lab. The men police arrested were receiving FEMA assistance. The hotel owner says he'll now have to spend $5,000 to clean out the room. As for Malone, she says she's not seeing any drug activity at her hotel. It's too nice she says. Why would she want to leave? FEMA has not been able to provide the exact totals as to how much all the meals and hotel rooms are costing taxpayers, but FEMA has said repeatedly it works with people continuously to find permanent housing, and it will not leave anyone homeless. Since Katrina hit the Gulf Coast nearly three years ago, the U.S. Attorney's Office in Mississippi has charged more than 275 people with FEMA fraud. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
While on-the-ground support of disaster recovery efforts is a major part of FEMA's charter, the agency provides state and local governments with experts in specialized fields and funding for rebuilding efforts and relief funds for infrastructure, in conjunction with the Small Business Administration. FEMA also assists individuals and businesses with low interest loans. In addition to this, FEMA provides funds for training of response personnel throughout the United States and its territories as part of the agency's preparedness effort. Yes, Serenity, you are absolutely right. Is it your experience then that FEMA is NOT providing low-interest loans? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Oh. You can apply. Anybody can apply. The only small businesses I've seen that were actually approved and utilized went belly up. They were mostly construction companies. I believe I conceded in another thread that we also got our asses kicked by Mexicans. But that's another issue. Jaime, Mike, I don't want you guys to think I have no sense of humor about the subject. In fact, yesterday I decided to dust off that old play that a certain sniffy someone had decided was too irreverent for her needs. Maybe we can laugh a little now. So you guys just go ahead and perform the autopsies, as I said earlier, I only know what I know, and that ain't a helluva lot? (Do ya'll think planting bible-thumping audience members dressed as locusts in a balcony seat "over the top?") Have at it, Mike. I'm just having more fun playing with myself. *cackle* I was thinking about you earlier though. I went back to a time when my brothers had got into fisticuffs yet again, and my Dad listened to them protesting, standing there, equally bloodied and bruised. He calmly drank his coffee and continued reading his paper. "Aren't you going to do something?" My mom asked. My Dad looked up and said, "Both o ya'll shoulda knowed better." Then he looked at my mom and smiled and said, "There." I'm gonna go work on my play. I need a good laugh. Love to all.The truth is we're talking about two different things when we discuss recovery. You want the appearance of a town, and I want my home back, and I can't have that. But speaking of recovery, I think that I'm at a point now where I will stop wallowing and wishing for my old life back too. I think I want a brand new one of those. The old one wasn't so hot.  But keep up the good fight, by all means. I'll try to restrain myself from peeking back in. (But it does inspire the play!) *chuckling* |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Balladeer, You are apparently shocked and astounded that idiots and fools as well as the wise and capable are expected to be helped by government relief efforts. If I understand the logic you are offering, then because people you don't think deserve our help are getting it, then everybody should be cut off from all help because they're all terrible. I don't believe you mean this. Why not take a very deep breath and ask yourself the question that people of conscience have been asking themselves forever? What do we do in a world where we do not approve of everybody who asks for help? If you put conditions on the help, what experience tells us is that many of the deserving folk do not get the help they need. (I've seen schizophrenic, manic depressive, obsessive-compulsive and other fairly ill people taken off public welfare and seen them end up on the streets because they fell through the cracks. They couldn't jump through the extra hoops. Most anyone working in mental health will tell you the same thing.) The cost of separating the deserving and the undeserving is high, probably higher than the cost of actually paying for the people who shouldn't be on the roles. And, tell me, Balladeer, really, how robust and hale and healthy do you think the folks are that you think of as freeloaders. Would you want to trade places with any of them? Is there a life among them that you envy? I mean really envy, the way you'd like to live the life of a millionaire? There are an awfully high percentage of kids and single mothers on the roles. Cut the number of social workers and what you get are more child abuse cases. They're already overstretched. Are you willing to change places with Kelly Christian? How about Gwenester Malone in Biloxi? It may be good reporting and it may stir your blood and contempt, but I suspect that trading places with them or visiting their neighborhoods and looking at their living conditions and seeing what their three meals a day provided through the taxpayer's dollar would be like might be a tad rich for your blood. I know it is for mine. The difference between us here is that I imagine living there and I say to myself that I'd feel pretty disheartened and depressed because I've been pretty disheartened and depressed and I know how immobilizing that can be. I know I'd be fortunate to get out of bed in the morning, if that. And you imagine something else. I say I'd need every bit of help I could get; and even that might not be enough. And you're saying something that doesn't fit with your innate kindness, because I know that you've been very helpful to Serenity and I know you've got a decent and more than decent heart. As for FEMA, the problems with it seem to be structural. They should be able to be repaired by making FEMA a cabinet level post with direct access to the President and by staffing it with disaster relief professionals. Those were the recommendations of the bipartisan committee that did the investigation of the hurricane relief problems. This was the way, incidentally, that FEMA was run before it was folded in to The Department of Homeland Security. Lest you think I'm being overly partisan here, apparently The Department of Homeland Security was a Democratic idea originally, and one that I think was absolutely terrible: Too much Power over People's Lives in too centralized a place. I don't know why the Republicans took it up. None of these changes to the best of my knowledge have been made (please correct me if I'm wrong here). FEMA seems to have been used in this case selectively to pass on funds to Republicans more directly than Democrats, if Serenity is correct. IIf the general recommendations had been followed, perhaps the gulf states would be in better shape by now. Other agencies did better and deserve praise, like the Coast Guard and The Navy, as I understand things. These Republicans are not the Republicans that earned your respect while you were growing up as the party to support, or my respect as worthy adversaries. I don't believe these Republicans are doing well by the country, and I don't mean in comparison to Democrats, though I certainly believe that, but in comparison to Republicans of character and vision and passion from the past; and, possibly, depending who, from the present. What the current office holders have done to the gulf states is little more than a metaphor for what they have done to the country as a whole. When you see the distress of the gulf states, you see the distress of America.... As for Iraq, Balladeer, the issue is not whether our troops have done well or been heroic. They have done well and they have been heroic. The issue is that there was no need for them to have been there in the first place; they were cynically used to fight a war that cannot be won. They were mislead by this administration against all facts into believing that Iraq had something to do with the bombings on 9/11. Despite overt acknowledgement of the truth of this statement Bush and his surrogates have continued to imply otherwise in public forums. In order to win a war, the war must have a goal. First, it was to revenge ourselves on those who perpetrated 9/11. The Iraqi's were not involved, and Saddam was not involved. Attempts to bring those who were responsible were shelved so the war in Iraq could be pursued. "I don't even think about him very much," was Bush's comment about Bin Laden. After eight or so years in which Saddam was apparently well contained, this administration suddenly begins talking about Saddam's weapons of mass destruction. Where had they been for eight years? Why had they not been a threat before 9/11? And how had they suddenly become a threat afterward? There were no CIA or other governmental reports of their dangers until The President began to ask for evidence of them, after the 9/11 bombings by Saudi nationals. At no point were such weapons found. When it became clear than Saddam was willing to let inspections run their course, Bush upped the ante again. Now the goal was no longer showing there were no longer weapons of mass destruction; now the goal was regime change. Tell me, Balladeer, how many thousand American lives was toppling Saddam's regime worth to George Bush? Why Saddam, for example, an not any other regime we didn't agree with, say Syria, or North Korea, or Burma or China, or Sudan, to pick a few from the middle of the deck? With no threat, certainly no immediate threat, despite Dr. Rice's rhetoric about mushroom clouds, what possible reason did George Bush have to deploy troops in Iraq? I've never figured it out. Certainly our troops have been brave, even heroic. What about our Commander in Chief? Bush's dad knew better. He predicted the current state of affairs had he attempted an invasion in 1993 and he decided that it was a bad decision; and he was right. He was right then; he was right when he wrote the book, and he's still right today, and our troops are paying for it. They are paying a bill that they shouldn't have to pay for reasons that were clear in 1993, in 1998 and are still clear in 2008 despite all the twists and wiggles and turns that President Bush has taken to try to justify it. As for bringing up Iraq, I think it would be better to do it in another forum. I think it takes away from this one, and some recent reading I've been doing has made me reconsider and become if anything somewhat firmer in my displeasure about our Iraq policies. I hesitate to say so directly, of course, for fear of giving anything away. Yours, somewhat more testily than I intended, BobK. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You are apparently shocked and astounded that idiots and fools as well as the wise and capable are expected to be helped by government relief efforts. If I understand the logic you are offering, then because people you don't think deserve our help are getting it, then everybody should be cut off from all help because they're all terrible. I don't believe you mean this. ..and you shouldn't believe I mean what you are suggesting, Bob. If that is the impression you got from my comments, then we speak a different language, I suppose. Yes, I know that FEMA was the creation of the peanut farmer. I also acknowledge that it needs a lot of work in reconstruction and staffing. With respect to Iraq, your statements are so full of holes and misconceptions that I can't even list them all. I agree that this thread is not the place to beat that horse once again but I would be happy to meet you in another thread if you would like to pursue it. As for Iraq, Balladeer, the issue is not whether our troops have done well or been heroic. Tell that to the soldiers over there, Bob, the ones who have heard the stories of how returning Vietnam vets were treated by the public, the ones who read our newspapers and shake their heads at the idiocy of the comments, the ones who scream out "We're making a good difference here!". The issue is why the Democrats and the press would rather cut their collective necks than have anything decent to say about our troops or their work there. The issue is why they have spent 7 years throwing everything at Bush they could conceive, with the hopes that something would finally stick. FEMA could have arrived in New Orleans with bushelfuls of money and enough food to feed Brazil and a crew of carpenters to build a new house for every citizen displaced and the Democrats would have still found ways to blast FEMA and Bush along with it. I have little doubt that there were some great acts of heroics and humanity performed there - yes, even by government employees, but I defy you to show them to me in print. Democrats cannot do that because they are afraid that, doing that, in the same vein as saying anything favorable about Iraq, it may actually reflect favorably on Bush and they certainly can't have that, can they? Could FEMA have done better? No doubt. Does FEMA deserve only the criticism and hatred the Democrats engineered against them with no praise whatsoever for any efforts or services they provided? Apparently so, to many....... |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
quote: Dear Balladeer, Apparently we both agree that FEMA and the pooch got overly friendly, and that in the time since their somewhat overly familiar relationship hasn't become one more appropriate to the situation. The disagreement seems to be about whether FEMA was in some fashion or another able to do nice things for the pooch at the same time, and whether the nice things made up for the basic behavior pattern. Perhaps you would care to venture a guess as to the percentage of niceness FEMA provided and which was not reported. I would remind you that when FEMA rushed supplies in and pre-positioned them for distribution, this was widely reported and praised in the press by everybody, including The Washington Post and The New York Times; and that when President Bush made his promises, these too were widely reported and praised by these same sources. The President was very happy to get this recognition and he and FEMA both deserved it. I have nothing against justly earned and well deserved praise, and these are examples. When the supplies were not distributed, when the promises were not kept and when the President attempted to distribute the blame of these problems elsewhere, he was not so happy with the verdict reached by these same sources; and he was quick to smear them and everybody else he could reach rather than accept responsibility for problems of his own creation. When the news sources praised him, he thought they were correct, when they criticized him, they were part of a liberal plot. Both FEMA and the President deserved praise in both the incidents I mentioned above. For their ineffectiveness and unwillingness to put into place the corrections that bipartisan investigation has since determined are necessary, they deserve every bit of criticism they have gotten. This has nothing to do with Democrats or Republicans, as I seem to have to point out time after time without any acknowledgement on your part; it has to do with failure to deliver appropriate and even minimal services to people who are in terrible need. It is not simply FEMA, it is this version of FEMA that is not working. Both Democrats and Republicans agree on this. Both agree on the solutions to the problem, which is to give FEMA direct access to the President; to eliminate the currently politicized nature of the FEMA administration and bring in people who are professional at providing disaster relief and giving them decent funding to do the job; and giving FEMA its own independent Cabinet level director. This administration, isolated from the recommendations of even its own committee members, continues to act as though nothing needs to be done. FEMA's leadership positions still need to be filled by people who are professional at this sort of work. The contracts FEMA distributes should not be filled by the usual suspects. The GAO should not have to issue the kind of reports that it does about the way these funds were used. There should be a much better level of recovery in New Orleans and throughout the Gulf States than there is at present. Do I hate FEMA? No, I don't. Do I think they deserve only criticism? No, I don't. Balladeer, you are trying to accuse democrats in general of Black and White thinking: Either this or that; either black or white; either one or the other. We Democrats have usually been accused of trying to see the nuances in things, the details, wanting to understand the shades of meaning. I suppose I should be relieved to hear a new accusation, but I guess I'd rather hear one that was a bit more reflective of the actual reality of the way Democrats actually see and experience the world. I think this version of FEMA needs to be changed in line with the way both Democrats and Republicans seem to think it would actually work better. I like FEMA; I simply want it to work better. I don't like it to be set up to be a poster child for this year's GOVERNMENT DOESN'T WORK campaign by the neoconservatives. Government has enough legitimate issues to be worked out without phony issues being trumped up. FEMA's a perfectly decent government agency that's being destroyed to no good purpose, and it's being kept from doing the kind of job it was designed to do and which it can do very efficiently and very well indeed. I actually like FEMA, and despise what's being done to it, and despise what it's being prevented from doing. If it were well run, I wouldn't give a hoot who was in power. Balladeer, you've heard me be critical of my Democratic friends and allies when I think it's warranted, and you've seen me be kind to Republicans, difficult as that may be. It's the good of the country that matters, and the people in it. This version of FEMA's got both hands tied behind its back and it isn't pretty what President Bush has done to it. I do look forward to talking about Iraq. Have you seen the new Vincent Bugliosi book, The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder? I've just finished it and it's extraordinary, as well researched as you'd expect anything by Bugliosi, and very well written. Have a look if you can. Best wishes, BobK. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Bob,I have only a few seconds but let me say one thing before I go...and I'll be back tonight. I checked Google for any good sounding articles about the government's delivery of supplies in a positive light by the Washington Post, or anyone else for that matter...and found none. I did, however, find a lot of information concerning what FEMA did NOT do and, if they are accurate, I have to agree that they did more than just drop the ball. It seems to me, at a glance, they are accurate, like fEMA refusing to let water come in from WAL-MART, refusing the offers of Chicago to send supplies, police officer and other aidful things to New Orleans, and a few other things. It is really disappointing to read of this....no, it makes me MAD to read of this. I am so used to the press taking whatever potshots at Bush as they possibly can, I normally take these types of things with a grain of salt but I think they would be insane to print such things without validity. I'm going to dive into this over the next days. No, I haven't seen Bugliosi's book. Perhaps I'll get to it when I finish the new best seller "Did George Bush REALLY Kill Cock Robin?" |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Balladeer, Thank you very much for checking out the information, Mike. It goes beyond politics into the realm of Greek tragedy. FEMA deserves credit for what it does do. The agency should be allowed a chance to do its mission without political handcuffs from anybody, left or right. Sincerely, BobK. P.S. Read Mr. Robin's tell-all bestseller, George And I, now at better booksellers everywhere. [This message has been edited by Bob K (06-08-2008 05:09 PM).] |
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