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Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

0 posted 2007-09-27 08:05 PM

Is something happening here?

I don't know. Let us hope!

Please not another T'ianmen.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant

since 2004-10-12

Posts 6688
Waukegan

1 posted 2007-09-27 08:57 PM

.

What can the flesh
and blood of mere monks
do against bullets?

China is involved
Don't suggest we do. . .

They are on their own . . .

.

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

2 posted 2007-09-28 07:49 PM

I do not know how reliable these are but here are some rumors:

quote:
: Military sources in Rangoon are claiming that the regime's number two, General Maung Aye (right), has staged a coup against Than Shwe, and that his troops are now guarding Aung San Suu Kyi's home. A meeting between him and Suu Kyi is expected. Maung Aye is army commander-in-chief and a renowned pragmatist.
29 Sep 07, 01:18

quote:
Admin: URGENT : From internal source: It is heard that the junta has set a plot to assassinate the most senior venerable monks (Sanga Maha Naryaka) tonight as if it is done by the monks involved in the protest.

http://burmanews.cbox.ws/

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant

since 2004-10-12

Posts 6688
Waukegan

3 posted 2007-09-28 08:31 PM

.

So again the question:
How many lives of young
American men and women
are you willing to expend?

.

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

4 posted 2007-09-28 08:38 PM

Huh?

Oh, I get it. The answer's easy: 0

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't hope or pray for good things happening.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant

since 2004-10-12

Posts 6688
Waukegan

5 posted 2007-09-28 09:13 PM

'

Hope and pray
as you will
so long as no
American blood is spent . ..

John

.

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

6 posted 2007-09-28 09:31 PM

If only that sentiment were applied across the board.

Uh, that's a metaphor, I don't mean these boards.

Balladeer

Administrator

Member Empyrean

since 1999-06-05

Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA

7 posted 2007-09-28 11:12 PM

No worries. The U.N. will handle it...

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

8 posted 2007-09-29 12:10 PM

Pictures

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

9 posted 2007-09-29 01:27 AM

This is from Sullivan's site at the Atlantic:

quote:
Heaven knows what the casualties are, and as the country gets cut off from the outside world, it's hard not to fear the worst:

    Bob Davis, Australia's ambassador to Burma, said he had heard unconfirmed reports that the death toll following two days of violence was "several multiples of the 10 acknowledged by the authorities."

The AP suspects, but has not confirmed, that deaths could be in the hundreds at this point. Japan is pressing for an investigation into the killing of a Japanese journalist. There are some reports that the resistance is becoming more violent, more disorganized and more explicitly anti-junta:

    Chants from the protestors have taken on a different tone from earlier messages of goodwill, with protestors calling for lightning to strike and kill those who had attacked monks.

    “Before they were chanting metta, but now they are cursing the soldiers,” said a local resident.

More confirmation of the trend here:

    Crowds of people taunted soldiers in the centre of Rangoon today, swearing at them and then running into side alleys of Burma's biggest city when the troops feigned a charge, a witness said.

[This part has been deleted. Not a big deal, but go to his blog if you want to read the whole thing.]

Protesting government censorship, Rangoon's journalists have chosen to shut down their presses rather than print more lies. The junta is now hunting down people in offices who have been taking photographs and posting them on the web:

    I got a news from my friends that last night some military guys searched office computers from Traders and Sakura Tower building. Most of the downtown movement photos were took from office rooms of those high buildings. GSM phone lines and some land lines were also cut out and very difficult to contact even in local. GSM short message sending service is not working also. Burma is blacked out now!

Maybe technology can help keep the world's eye focused. Satellite images of riots and massacres might be available soon:

    "We should get the first images back in the next day or so," says Lars Bromley, a senior researcher with the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) in Washington DC.

Keeping the world's attention through the blogosphere is now essential. The revolution is not only going to be blogged; in some respects, the blogosphere is now critical to the survival of the revolution. Know hope.

Just trying to keep the thing in semi-view.

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

10 posted 2007-09-29 12:14 PM

Enough, it's time for me to sleep.
http://burmanews.cbox.ws/

I don't know if this is accurate, but something's going on.

Balladeer

Administrator

Member Empyrean

since 1999-06-05

Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA

11 posted 2007-09-29 12:23 PM

Ko Hla: Mr. Gambari MUST GO TO Yangon. People are dying and protesting at Yangon. Naypyidaw is a ghost town where only government officials and generals reside. Please… if someone from UN reading this message, contact Mr. Gambri NOW and insist that he must see Yangon. Help us!! Help Myanmar (Burma).

Poor fellow doesn't know that the U.N. can't read. Things like this and Darfur should never be allowed to happen....and wouldn't if the U.N. were what they are supposed to be.

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

12 posted 2007-09-29 12:41 PM

Mike,

Yes, yes, they aren't asking US. (that's intended)

They are asking the UN.

And yet, part of me wants it to be known.

Is that wrong?

This isn't politics anymore. It's about people, people who want to live free or semi-free, or whatever. It's up to them.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant

since 2004-10-12

Posts 6688
Waukegan

13 posted 2007-09-30 02:29 AM

.

“It's about people, people who want to live free or semi-free, or whatever”

And why isn't Iraq that?

.

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

14 posted 2007-09-30 02:45 AM

Indeed.

Let the Iraqis decide their fate.

Balladeer

Administrator

Member Empyrean

since 1999-06-05

Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA

15 posted 2007-09-30 08:09 AM

Not politics anymore, Brad???

Associated Press

The U.N. has repeatedly failed to bring about a reconciliation between the military government and the pro-democracy opposition. Gambari and his predecessor, Razali Ismail of Malaysia, have also failed to secure freedom for Suu Kyi, the 1991 Nobel Peace prize winner who has come to symbolize the struggle for democracy in Myanmar.

Many people see China, Myanmar's biggest trading partner, as the most likely outside catalyst for change.

But China, India and Russia do not seem prepared to go beyond words in dealing with the junta, ruling out sanctions as they jostle for a chance to get at Myanmar's bountiful and largely untapped natural resources, especially its oil and gas.

The Association of Southeast Asian Nations, or ASEAN, a 10-member bloc which includes Myanmar, has expressed its "revulsion" at the crackdown, but given no indication that it is considering an expulsion or any other action.

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

16 posted 2007-09-30 09:01 AM

Yeah, it's all politics.

Please, forgive me. I do, sometimes, fall into idealism every once in awhile.

Once again, shame on me!

Balladeer

Administrator

Member Empyrean

since 1999-06-05

Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA

17 posted 2007-09-30 04:47 PM

Don't let it get you down, Brad. It happens to the best of us....

jbouder
Member Elite

since 1999-09-18

Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash

18 posted 2007-10-01 08:25 AM

"Let the Iraqis decide their fate."

All the Iraqis Brad, or just the ones with guns and bombs?

Just trying to get a feel for your position.

Jim

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

19 posted 2007-10-01 09:08 AM

I was thinking of a referendum on the US presence.

Ask us to stay, we stay.

Ask us to leave, we leave.

It just seems the simplest solution.

But, uh, what about Burma?

Balladeer

Administrator

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since 1999-06-05

Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA

20 posted 2007-10-01 09:31 AM

What about Darfur?

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

21 posted 2007-10-01 10:32 AM

I don't see how Darfur and Burma are remotely comparable. Actually, I don't see how Iraq and Burma are comparable (except that we have troops there and the idea, perhaps, that asking to support a group inevitably means we have to send soldiers there -- something I've already disavowed).

But hey, if you have a good argument, I'll listen.

On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with posting links, sending letters, signing petitions -- you know, the Amnesty International Way.

How much does it help? Obviously, not much, but it doesn't seem to hurt either.

jbouder
Member Elite

since 1999-09-18

Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash

22 posted 2007-10-01 11:12 AM

Brad:

Agreed that yours seems like the simplest solutions, but I think it might be too simple.

Rather than a referendum on "should I stay or should I go," I'd recommend prior notice of what we'd be expected to achieve on what timeline.  At the end of that time line, or at given points along the way, we could evaluate progress against expected benchmarks.  I can't think of another way to protect our investment (of troops, lives, military hardware, etc.) in countries that request our assistance.

And Darfur is a horrible situation.  Mike, what do you suggest we do about it?

And Burma ... another awful situation.  I hope those wanting freedom get the help they need to secure it.

Jim

Balladeer

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since 1999-06-05

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Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA

23 posted 2007-10-01 06:17 PM

Well, let's see....two countries whose citizens are being slaughtered who want nothing more than peace and a touch of democracy...two countries begging the world for help while the great UN, peacekeeper deluxe of the world, sits around and has meaningless meetings on the shame of it all while doing nothing. You see no comparison? Then I have no argument that could possibly make any sense to you.

Writing letters is good. Signing petitions is good. Wagging fingers and chanting "Naughty, naughty" is also a good idea but, somehow, I doubt the people in Darfur who are being slaughtered and raped by the thousands will have their minds resting easier knowing letters are being written. They need help that's a little more tangible, I think.

What would I do, Jim? Beats me. In a perfect world, these countries would be blockaded from the outside world, all assets frozen, all entry and exit of imports/exports stopped. In a REAL perfect world, the United Nations would have actual multi-national armies who would go after any regime that does what these do. We don't a have a perfect or real-perfect world, though. The UN is a toothless paper tiger and I would tell them so. I would also tell them to either fish or cut bait, to be something or get their behinds out of New York and hold their cocktail parties somewhere else.

It is a prime desire of ours, along with other democratic countries, to have democracy and freedom spread throughout as much of the world as possible - not only for their sake but for ours - and yet we have countries trying to do so and we stand by watching them be slaughtered.

Shame on the regimes making it happen and shame on us for letting it happen.

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

24 posted 2007-10-01 06:45 PM

quote:
It is a prime desire of ours, along with other democratic countries, to have democracy and freedom spread throughout as much of the world as possible - not only for their sake but for ours

We are in complete agreement here.

quote:
- and yet we have countries trying to do so and we stand by watching them be slaughtered.

Shame on the regimes making it happen and shame on us for letting it happen.

But not here. Here is where I think things get a little more difficult. Whereas, I guess, you see a moral imperative, I see a recklessness that should be avoided.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant

since 2004-10-12

Posts 6688
Waukegan

25 posted 2007-10-01 09:03 PM

"moral imperative"

That's curious.
Somehow it's defused
by Americans being there.

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

26 posted 2007-10-01 09:22 PM

Why would you say that?

Balladeer

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Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA

27 posted 2007-10-02 01:26 AM

Whereas, I guess, you see a moral imperative, I see a recklessness that should be avoided.

Action being the recklessness, I assume? Well, we can always keep writing those letters and hope the slaughter leaders get infected paper cuts from opening them

Seriously, Brad, aiming for a peaceful solution is an admirable goal but we can witness now what those attempts have accomplished so far. How many more thousands have to die to realize that they are not interested in peaceful solutions?

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant

since 2004-10-12

Posts 6688
Waukegan

28 posted 2007-10-02 08:18 PM

.

Any time Americans are actively involved
there seems to be an assumption
of ulterior evil motives.

Burma has gas . . .
Maybe that’s it.

.

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

29 posted 2007-10-02 09:10 PM

quote:
Seriously, Brad, aiming for a peaceful solution is an admirable goal but we can witness now what those attempts have accomplished so far. How many more thousands have to die to realize that they are not interested in peaceful solutions?

Unfortunately, you are right in this case. Yet, South Korea, Chile, and the old Soviet Union are good counter examples.

It has happened before.

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

30 posted 2007-10-02 11:06 PM

With all the latest power grabs and other decidedly undemocratic happenings in "the old Soviet Union" (the new Russia) one has to wonder about that.

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

31 posted 2007-10-02 11:16 PM

You wanna go back?

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

32 posted 2007-10-03 09:27 AM

Definately not. But I think maybe Mr. Putin wants to go back.

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