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A home without a wall, |
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| The Alley |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296
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Hello & Good Morning  If you were to write all the candidates who are running for President about the issues in our world that bother you, annoy you, or scare you, or what you would like to see changed to help make our country a better place for our children and grandchildren. A sort of Change Wish List, so to speak  Well we can dream can't we?1. I would like to see a decision made and followed through with on the war in Iraq...We should either send over all we've got (men & women, equipment, & weapons) or get out of there. 2. I would like to see a law set forth, that everyone must carry a drivers license which says they are legal citizen of the U.S. and if not, then all who are not, shall be deported. We then start all over again with Immigration laws, allowing only a certain number of immigrants in the U.S. at a time. Those said people shall then be monitored and must attain citizenship within a certain amount of time. Otherwise, they must be deported. Only a few student visas should be issued each year, and those said students shall be closely monitored and abide by our Laws & Rules. If they violat any laws or rules, then they shall to be deported. In other words they’d be visitors here, and need to be reminded it is a privilege that has been extended to them. 3. I would like to see our criminal laws get tougher and stop wasting tax payers money on re arresting repeated offenders, retrials, etc...build many more prisons and put people away for good, who are a menace to society. 4. Education in this country is of grave concern...I would like to see community funding by the state and federal governments to establish educational systems in our schools and also on parenting classes, and also, where older folks, may obtaining a high school diploma. Education should be first and foremost in this country…on all levels. 5. Would like to see a mandatory draft...all those who graduate from high school, must report for training and duty up to two years after graduation, unless attending college. These draftees could be trained not only for combat, but also, for boarder patrol and to be deployed to disaster areas like New Orleans, immediately after the disaster occurs to help keep crime levels down, and assist in rebuilding that area. This would also reinstate much more confidence, and respect for our country and it's people not to mention, a much stronger and educated military system. 6. I would like to see strict laws and regulations on chemical & nuclear plants...and if they have an accident, they should be made to clean it up immediately, and report it...all chemical plants, manufacturers & hauling equipment should be inspected regularly by an independent company and report findings to a federally appointed group who should make that company modernize they're unsafe equipment or be shut down...including their security and access to said companies and equipment should be highly restricted and secure. 7. Smoking laws....smoking is not illegal...therefore; I am all for the freedom to smoke but only in outside designated areas, never inside a closed building or restaurant... 8. Would like to see each and every communities water supply checked and reported daily, and logged as to the findings and reported to a state and federal agency set up for monitoring such information. 9. Would like to see incentives given in the way of a tax cut, or some sort of pay out to companies who bring back manufacturing, research, pharmaceuticals, technological research and medical research to the United States… In other words, rebuild opportunities for industry and create more jobs. This would be advantageous for our economy, as well as, getting people (lifers off welfare) & off their butts, teaching them to be self supporting. Would also like to see a continuous effort on the part of manufacturing better products right here in the U.S.…researching cures for diseases, making our own clothes and shoes again, all our own products, equipment, this might stimulate minds and be an all around goodness for everyone? 10. Would like to see colleges stick to the curriculum of teaching our youth, instead of making mandatory courses, like gym, that will never pertain to their choice of careers. 11. Some kind of law should be adhered to regarding lobbyists, and their control over our political leaders…I’m open to suggestions here…but lately, it’s those with the most money who have the most say, and that shouldn’t be. 12. Political Correctness… We must stop being so darn sensitive about race, religion, and sexual gender...if we are not, how are we any better then other countries dictating what should be believed in? If we don’t stop this ridiculous bickering, and respect people for who they are, what race and religions they are, then political correctness will be our demise. And if you do the crime, you do the time, regardless of race, religion or gender. Well, that is my wish list... What’s yours? [This message has been edited by LeeJ (01-25-2007 12:38 PM).] |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Lofty wishes Lee.  Me, I'm simple - I just want people to start taking responsibility for their own actions. Pipe dreams, pipe dreams.  |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
yeah, I know they're pretty lofty, way to many expectations I suppose, and yours, are not pipe dreams, but realistic and sensible. Many thanks Christopher. |
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Mistletoe Angel 
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
1) We need to seriously re-evaluate the current shape of our foreign policy. I believe ever since the Franklin Roosevelt era in particular, our government has cynically forged alliances with our highly democratic ideals to governments with abysmal record of human rights allowance and isolationism from basically every country except Kuwait in order to keep up with our fuel demands, as Roosevelt did with the Saudi Arabian royal family. I find it quite astonishing myself that the Standard Oil Company had a contract with al-Hasa as early as 1933, and it took as long as a dozen years for the United States government to notice these developments, until after World War II, during the Truman Administration. Since then, the double standard mentality attached to our foreign policy remains unshaken, from the Land-Lease Act of 1941, where considering how Saudi Arabia had no history with the United States prior to World War II and was not under attack, no clear lines or guidelines were drawn in mapping out the prerequisites for military assistant transferal, which these loopholes only enlarged through the Truman, Eisenhower and Nixon doctrines, and, consequentially, with the sheer determination to win the Cold War, administrations from Truman to Reagan had transferred much modernized weapon technology to seeming allies at the time who have now evolved into the very threats of our national security, including the Taliban, al-Qaeda and Iran, and especially with the latter, how our government's effort to try and stop nuclear proliferation also is rooted in cynicism, in providing nuclear-capable F-16's to other countries in the region among other things. Nation Journal: January 2007 In essence, we're still bogged down in this sort of mentality, with some neoconservatives continuing to push the "long war" strategy. In fact, Chuck Hagel told GQ magazine in a new interview that the original October 2002 resolution authorizing President Bush to use military action on Iraq had allowed the U.S to go anywhere in the region, and Iraq appeared to be the country that the neoconservatives saw us most likely succeeding most easily in, that it was supposed to be the easy war, and then if a democracy were established there other radical regimes would topple in a domino effect. We need to break this cynical habit and begin treating our armed forces as those supposed to defend OUR country above all else, and have the will to diplomatically engage internationally rather than invade country after country, and not be afraid to have talks with countries like Syria and Iran, which I don't believe would be sucking up to the terrorists at all but rather be common sense under the notion that you don't make peace with your friends, you make peace with your enemies, and restore our credibility and reputation on the world stage. We need to be dead serious on nuclear proliferation, regardless of what country is asking for it, we must remain serious yet disciplined in fighting the war on terror, and encourage public discussion and debate before ANY major military policy is enacted. * 2) We must do much more on Darfur, in hoping to prevent the first mass genocide of the 21st century. We must demand the deployment of the already authorized UN peacekeeping force, and strengthen the understaffed African Union force already there. We must enforce a No-Fly Zone in Darfur already established by the United Nations. We must increase humanitarian aid and ensure access for delivery. We must tell the United Nations loud and clear that the responsibility of stopping this genocide rests primarily in their hands, but work with world leaders also to see it has the leadership and the tools it needs to do the job we're asking it to do. We must urge Congress to provide both the oversight and the funding necessary to ensure that the will of the American people to help end the genocide in Darfur is being carried out effectively. And we must urge the United Nations and all of its member states to put the real needs of the Sudanese people in Darfur ahead of the false concerns of the Sudanese government in Khartoum by placing already agreed upon targeted sanctions on regime officials, and divesting from companies that support their government suspect of much of the human rights abuses. * 3) Charles A. Lindbergh wrote in a May 23, 1971 edition of the New York Times magazine, “Our ideals, laws and customs should be based on the proposition that each generation, in turn, becomes the custodian rather than the absolute owner of our resources and each generation has the obligation to pass this inheritance on to the future." We MUST do much more in funding renewable energy, but moreover break our dependence on foreign oil in earnest, by moving from dependency to autonomy and integrity, where we both become self-reliant and express the freedom of action to extricate ourselves from foreign petroleum dependency, as well as make decisions on energy policy in accordance with fundamental American values and with a view to this nation’s long-term interests. * 4) Restore community values to public education, and increase funding in the arts and music. Here in Portland I believe my community has a great school-based delivery model; honoring and providing increased funding to schools which 1) have "a successful history of integrating services and intergovernmental collaboration", 2) "a successful history of community partnerships", 3) "had a three to five year plan which integrates the broad parameters of this concept on a local level", and 4) that the school had challenging neighborhood conditions, such as "underserving by social support services", high numbers of students from different backgrounds, or challenged by unemployment or poverty. Rigid, excessive standarized testing as under the No Child Left Behind, carried out while overlooking every child's individual gifts, as well as racial differences, income differences, English-speaking abilities, etc. in a one-size-fits-all format, I believe fails to celebrate and respect each child as an individual, which should be part of a great education. We must promote educational ethics such as that learning involves personal discovery, action, observation and reflection, and that their creative, hands-on active education program is a process of respecting one’s self, the arts, and our connections to others and the natural world. I also believe the community should also be able to volunteer and help out (except for those with routine criminal records and such) for interaction with the community advances the full social potential for each child. Albert Bandura, a modern social psychologist, said that "the fundamental approach of social learning theorists is based on the recognition that behavior is in large measure determined by situational factors outside the individual" and that the individual plays a major role in analyzing the situation through psychological response. And indeed I believe the most successful education is that which both engages the child socially in the community, while also offering his/her space for self-reflection. Having said that, it's also why I believe music and art funding must be brought back into public schools, as I believe the creative arts provide an inspiring outlet both academically and emotionally for each and every child, and I believe it's a problem that arts and music are being dropped from many schools in that it only restricts opportunity for each child's educational building. * 5) Universal health care. Need I say more?  * 6) Legalize hemp in America. I know many of you will be saying, "No, no, marijuana bad!", LOL! But seriously, hemp is by far one of the most versatile and effective cash crops in existence, which because of its very long fibers, rapid growth, and the versatile oil from seed, can be manufactured into many products. It can competitively, on both economic and technical levels, replace industrial feedstocks which are inherently polluting and unsustainable, as well as shorten the carbon cycle, protect our environment, reduce pollution, and encourage a more sustainable agriculture. Contrary to what anti-marijuana critics often mistake hemp as, hemp seeds are drug-free and excellent for your health with great amounts of vegetable protein and amino acids, and actually look much more like bamboo than marijuana. It can be grown virtually anywhere, from arid regions with poor soil like sub-saharan Africa to places with barely any growing season like Scandinavia. The banning of hemp is I believe one of our greatest mistakes in American history, both economically and socially, especially as it is something from Mother Nature's own garden that is being banned. * 7) Bring back prayer into public schools, while also guaranteeing religious freedom and tolerance. I believe that those attempting to ban school prayer tend to misinterpret the Establishment Clause of the Constitution, in that truly a simple and voluntary school prayer does not amount to our government establishing a religion, any more than do other things in the U.S like the government recognition of holidays with religious significance such as Christmas or the proclamation of National Days of Prayer. I can understand the main concern and argument some may have on this issue, particularly that it violates the separation of church and state. I respectfully disagree, as I believe it is constitutional and supports the principle of freedom of religion on which the U.S. was founded. Having said that, though, I will add one serious point; that if we are to allow school prayer again, freedom of religion must be stressed loud and clear as that's precisely what our founding fathers also believed in and, unfortunately, there are some intolerant pastors and faith leaders who will say one religion is the only way and demonize others as a heathen faith, etc. if anything less than that is stressed. I believe in school prayer not because I want children "saved" or to pacify and brainwash the children to achieve political ends, but because I believe there's a positivity behind school prayer that instills the moral values we cherish for future generations; it can help children to acknowledge a power greater than themselves, whether some holy spirit with a name or simply an emotion as depthless as the ocean, on which they can rely for comfort and help in times of trouble, and that reinforced comfort and optimism can reduce significantly rates of alcohol abuse, teen suicide and other forms of extreme behavior that can endanger young lives. I do sincerely believe the fears to prayer in public schools are overexaggerated to a good extent. Frankly, tolerance and acceptance is something that should be stressed above all else, and I believe the best way to respond to the less tolerant is to celebrate our cultural heritage and diversity of faiths rather than tuck them away in fear. * 8) Get serious on illegal immigration and border security; see to it that our rule of the law is enacted loud and clear. This is all about equality, fairness, preserving our American ideals. There are many who patiently and honorably wait often months at a time for their opportunity to be answered legally, and all because someone else chooses to walk around the system self-righteously and selfishly, the individual waiting respectfully in line to pursue and live the American dream is only postponed and blockaded. That strikes me as inequality, and just wrong. I'm all for immigration in the legal sense, for I believe we are a nation of immigrants, a cultural melting pot molded and built on diversity, and immigrants have truly brought color and inspiration to the culture and character of our national community, thus believe LEGAL immigration should be kept at present levels. But the fact is, there are tens of thousands who choose not to do so legally, and cheat opportunity merely to exploit our services and the opportunity of others. I have no sympathy for that, as it only stalls the hard-earned and deserving opportunities of others and promotes inequality, even injustice, and while I do recognize that this huge issue is also due in part to their home governments not tackling and resolving the social issues that encourage tens of thousands to migrate northward, the fact that instead of choosing to stay and challenge their local leaders and promote positive social change in their own communities, and prefer to just take advantage of some other nation's services just strikes me as selfish. We need to preserve our law of the land, or it'll only continue to erode. I believe in stricter penalties to companies and employers who hire illegal immigrants, and above all else, the "land of opportunity" must remain the land of opportunity beyond name only. * 9) Implement fusion balloting, so that every American citizen can rest assured they're never throwing away their vote. * 10) Provide increased security of nuclear power plants, chemical plants, ports and other sensitive sites in America which are tempting targets for terrorists. * 11) Implement what will gradually become a living wage. * 12) Support gay rights/gay marriage. * 13) Permanently preserve our most treasured wilderness areas and public beaches. * 14) Encourage healthier eating options in public schools and cafeterias across America, and implement Dance Dance Revolution physical health programs beyond West Virginia to keep children active and healthy. (guess you can say if I do EVER run I'll be the DDR candidate, LOL!) * 15) Govern mindful of small government, state rights and fiscal responsibility, while also see to it the basic needs and services of Americans are guaranteed to the public, regardless of social standing. * There are probably others I just can't get on the top of my head right now! Anyway, I'm just a big dreamer, and will all but certainly never get elected, both because I represent neither of the two behemoth parties and also because as long as we things in terms of red states and blue states, I'll appear too liberal to Utah on issues like gay marriage and too conservative to Rhode Island on issues like prayer in public schools. Thus, I should form Party DDR, the Dance Dance Revolutionaries, that don't go merely left or right, but touch everywhere across the social dance pad, LOL!  Love, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
1. Our Constitutional Rights |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Lee....the list is growing. I think the most important thing I'm looking for in the next President is the willingness to be the people's representative and a public SERVANT! I also want this freaking Middle East thing to end and I want this government not to participate in arming the rest of the world with weapons. I want fuel independence....so alternative fuels, pushing that industry. That would perhaps wake up our dying automobile industry, too. I want a president and a congress that really care about keeping this a living, thriving, beautiful country instead of those who want to piecemill it out to the highest bidder. It's time we focus on saving what we have left. And, that includes reversing all the changes to our constitutional rights that have been implemented in the last few years. This will be an interesting thread to follow...thanks for putting it up, Lee. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
MA...wow, thanks so much for offering so many great political challenges...I like what you have to say... Karen...Ditto, thanks for your input Iliana....your very welcome, and thanks for your input as well, couldn't agree with you more |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I 100% concur with the reversing of all the changes to our constitutional rights. I didn't mean to leave it out of my suggestions, as I feel everyone already knows my position on many issues these past several years which I feel infringe on our Constitution. That would include ending the Military Commissions Act which denies habeas corpus rights to detainees and seemingly allows the president to prison anyone he thought was a combatant, closing down Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, allowing only warranted wiretapping, either reforming or getting rid of the Patriot Act entirely so it doesn't allow big government to check out what you are searching for in libraries and allow break-ins without permission among other thing, investigating the John Yoo memo, and doing something about the signing statement controversy. We also need to get tougher on corruption in Congress, and see to it the lobbyists and corporations don't out-govern the government. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Great idea, let's reverse all advances and keep a 200+ year old document static, ignoring all changes that the world has undergone in favor of the edicts of a different culture with different expectations and challenges instead of addressing individual concerns as they're warranted. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
This topic reminds me of an e-mail I got depicting the speech of a new president taking office. Yes, it is tongue in cheek but there are some points I heartily agree with... My Fellow Americans: As you all know, the defeat of Iraq regime has been completed. Since congress does not want to We will not spend any more money on this war, our mission in Iraq is complete. This morning I gave the order for a complete removal of all American forces from Iraq . This action will be complete within 30 days. It is now to begin the reckoning. Before me, I have two lists. One list contains the names of countries which have stood by our side during the Iraq conflict. This list is short. The United Kingdom , Spain , Bulgaria , Australia , and Poland are some of the countries listed there. The other list contains everyone not on the first list. Most of the world's nations are on that list.. My press secretary will be distributing copies of both lists later this evening. Let me start by saying that effective immediately, foreign aid to those nations on List 2 ceases immediately and indefinitely. The money saved during the first year alone will pretty much pay for the costs of the Iraqi war. The American people are no longer going to pour money into third world Hellholes and watch those government leaders grow fat on corruption. Need help with a famine? Wrestling with an epidemic? Call France . In the future, together with Congress, I will work to redirect this money toward solving the vexing social problems we still have at home. On that note, a word to terrorist organizations. Screw with us and we will hunt you down and eliminate you and all your friends from the face of the earth. Thirsting for a gutsy country to terrorize? Try France , or maybe China . I am ordering the immediate severing of diplomatic relations with France , Germany , and Russia Thanks for all your help, comrades. We are retiring from NATO as well! Bon chance, mes amis. I have instructed the Mayor ofNew York City to begin towing the many UN diplomatic vehicles located in Manhattan with more than two unpaid parking tickets to sites where those vehicles will be stripped, shredded and crushed.. I don't care about whatever treaty pertains to this. You creeps have tens of thousands of unpaid tickets. Pay those tickets tomorrow or watch your precious Benzes, Beamers and limos be turned over to some of the finest chop shops in the wo rld. I love New York . Oh, by the way, theUnited States is abrogating the NAFTA treaty - starting now. We are tired of the one-way highway. Immediately, we'll be drilling for oil inAlaska - which will take care of this country's oil needs for decades to come. If you're an environmentalist who opposes this decision, I refer you to List 2 above: pick a country and move there. They care. It is time for America to focus on its own welfare and its own citizens. Some will accuse us of isolationism. I answer them by saying, "darn tootin." Nearly a century of trying to help folks live a decent life around the world has only earned us the undying enmity of just about everyone on the planet. It is time to eliminate hunger in America . It is time to eliminate homelessness in America . To the nations on List 1, a final thought. Thank you guys. We owe you and we won't forget. To the nations on List 2, a final thought: You might want to learn to speak Arabic. God bless America . Thank you and good night. |
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latearrival Member Ascendant
since 2003-03-21
Posts 5499Florida |
Good thread. Excellent suggestions by all. I have been in a dither because what I heard a few years back is true. Writing in Cursive is becoming a lost skill. Some schools are not even teaching cursive writing. According to the news-journalonline.com Wednesday Jan 31st edition.. front page "The local de-emphasis of cursive follows a national trend. According to a national report, just 15 percent of some 1.5 million students wrote their 2006 college admissions exams in cursive.The rest printed in block letters." I really am amazed this is the coming trend. They usually teach cursive after third grade but computers and other things are taking the place of cursive. This means that these young people can not read cursive either! thoughts on this? "late" |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Hi Martie Jo thanks for your input, great thoughtsand many thanks to each and all of you for contributing your hopes, thoughts and wishes to this thread...really enjoyed reading all of them. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Wow... was that a joke? So, will we deport the U.S. born (citizen) children of illegal immigrants, or just toss htem in an orphanage? Oh, wait, sorry... that interferes with your black-and-white way of looking at things. My bad. I also don't see how you plan to staff all the new industry flowing in with wish number nine... All the young adults will either be serving out their mandatory draft or busy in college... and with the illegal immigrants gone, who's going to clean Red Roof Inn's? The college grads? Be realistic. You can't just wipe our current problems away and start with a clean slate- human life isn't that cut and dry. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Hey Hush? No, it is not a joke, but, it is a WISH? Will it happen, no, will wishing bring my aunt back, who died, because they closed down 3 hospitals in her area out in Calif. Due to so so many illegals going to the Emergency rooms for everything, including minor colds, and not paying for their services...and so, my aunt was forced to go to some care unit set up temporarily and was misdiagnosed. I am being realistic Hush, in my wishes...you can call me cut and dry if you like, but these problems began, from a more modern way of thinking and you have not yet begun to suffer the consequences of illegal immigration like those down south. There will always be someone willing to clean Red Roof Inn's, if they want to make an honest living...I did, (not a Red Roof Inn, but I cleaned for a motel chain) (worked in a bakery, a factory sewing, and construction) when I was young. I also cleaned homes...did ironing...if you want to take care of your children and put food on the table, there is no job demeaning...all jobs are just that, a means of income, period. and read this... http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50441 but yanno, I'm really not allowed to vocalize that crimes are generally committed by minorities, b/c it is not politically correct, and yet, it is in truth, minorities are crime offenders... Did you know the show "Cops" is not allowed to show all crimes committed, they are only allowed to show a certain percentage of crimes comitted by minorities. I don't understand that? Illegal immigration is a CRIME http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/isacrime.html Have you ever lived around the majority of illegals who sell drugs, who dump garbage all over the place, who really could care less about our system or laws...as they feel it is their right to be here and break the laws. (And mind you, I know & work with some very nice, hard working illegals who became legal in the U.S., who are assets to the community, who are appalled at their own kind taking advantage of our system.) They have stated, the ones who want to be here legally and go through the system are the ones you want for neighbors, and would back them as upstanding citizens of the U.S. and I would. And that comes from immigrants who are now citizens of the U.S. Some laws are unfortunately not fair, but are there for a reason....I wonder, why immigration laws were invented and carried through years ago? I wonder what immigration laws accomplished, and why law makers and enforcers saw fit to turn their heads to this problem for years? Was it perhaps funding, or maybe both sides wanted to buy votes by allowing immigrants in, and I'm certain there are a lot of other reasons, but my point is, immigration laws worked before...in protecting the citizens of the U.S. But, then, Hush, this is just a wish... and a wish is a wish, nothing more, nothing less... I wish to, my aunt were still alive, but that wouldn't be realistic & perhaps too cut and dry? I was supposed to go visit her, but it was to late. Doctors said, if only we would have caught it sooner????? http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53683 Hush, I don't know what the answer is, but to grant all illegals that are here amnesty, would be a hugh insult to those who worked hard to become legal citizens...including our forefathers... Hush, would you invite anyone you didn't know, into your home to live? Offer them your spare bedroom, your refrigerator, to share your everything? Then to find out they are criminal offenders? Illegal means just that, and I'm appalled that this country no longer holds respect for laws, and looks for every way possible to rewrite them. Listen, if you want to become a citizen of the U.S., then accomplish it legally, and expect no free hand outs....there is nothing wrong with working for what you want, and working very hard....yanno? If we went to any other country in the world to live, do you honestly think, they would allow us in free, pay our way, and all our medical bills? Absolutely not. I wanted to purchase a home in the Bahamas, it would have cost me $10,000.00 to be able to do so back then....and that was just the beginning. We are so used to ignoring laws here, that we don't realize how fortunate we have it...how lucky we are, and how utterly preposterous some of our laws are. We are being laughed at and mocked by other countries for being so lenient, and it is just that which will destroy this country...our bleeding hearts for mankind...someday, this land, the U.S.A. will no longer belong to us, but to another country or countries. I'm sorry Hush, you feel that being cut and dry is a horrible thing...actually, I'm pretty happy and content with being so...being here, and getting here by working for every single thing I have. I wouldn't take a cent from anyone, to me, that would be the most degrading thing...and I certainly wouldn't go to another country to live, without living up to their rules and regulations...it just wouldn't be right, fair or just to do so, or at least that is my way of thinking, the way I was brought up. You don't take anything unless you pay for it with your own money....and if you ever have to borrow money, you always, always pay it back. But that is just my way of thinking... Sincerely Lee J. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
'We are being laughed at and mocked by other countries for being so lenient, and it is just that which will destroy this country...our bleeding hearts for mankind...someday, this land, the U.S.A. will no longer belong to us, but to another country or countries.' But the USA was founded by immigrants and our entire population (except for the few we relegate to living on reservations) can be traced back to immigrants. So when you talk about thye country belonging to "us," just who do you mean? The people who think like you? The people who look like you? Our country is made up of a myriad of countries, and it irks me when people forget that. Did I say grant every illegal alien amnesty? No. But there has to be a middle ground, and you can say throwing them all out is realistic, but it's not. Like I said, what aboput their kids, who were born in America, and are legal citizens by that benchmark alone? It is not illegal aliens' fault your aunt died- I'm sorry to hear that she did, I honestly am... but if our healthcare system encompassed everyone, not just based on whether your insurance would cover you, we wouldn't have problems like that. Illegal aliens are not the only uninsured... we're up to like a 48% uninsured/underinsured rate. Pretty pathetic. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
HI Hush, I was so hoping I wouldn't come off as being prejedice, cuz I'm not, thanks so much for responding. And yes, your right, our country was founded by immigrants...and to me, it doesn't matter what a person looks like...I really don't care if their skin is puple and they believe in scooby do...my main concern is that they arrive here "legally" through the laws of the country, learn the language, our laws...how to be working citizens of the U.S. I'm very sorry for all their children...I am, but they knew if they came here pregnant, amnisty would be given to their children and give them citizenship automatically. That to me is taking advantage of the system... Would you do it Hush? And I must say, I totally disagree...my aunt did pass away b/c they shut down hospitals...due to immigrants wanting free medical care. That is why the hospitals were forced to shut down, b/c none of their bills were paid. Also, with these immigrants come gangs...I suggest, and I'm not being smart, but if you feel the way you do, why not try to purchase a home in the middle of these immigrants and live there for a month...I'd then be interested to see if you feel the same way. Yanno, hush, I have no problems at all with someone coming to this country legally, working hard to accomplish their dreams, but to actually take away from the system or expect free handouts with a concept that I deserve this, is not fair, right or moral....and it makes people lazy and unappreciative. It sucks the entire system dry, and there are so many ripple effects. No Hush, I don't mean people that look like me, I mean, people who wish to take part in the American Dream who work to come thru the proper channels of that system. And I believe that is what others are talking about...it's not that fact that they want to live here, it's how they've gone about it, expecting everything to be given to them, yet, they don't want to learn the language...or even try to go thru immigration learning our system. And that is what those who were immigrants and have come here legally say...how is it fair then, to make some go thru the channels and not others, and those who choose to defy the channels, come here illegally, obtain perhaps more then one social security number, due to their many sur names....how is that fair Hush? Did you know they do that? Why? Cuz they can, we have no means of monitoring who, where and when, which in the end becomes chaotic. Your right Hush, it isn't at this present time realistic putting them back, until our boarders are shured up and full proof b/c they just keep coming back, again and again...they fear no consequences for their actions, and there should be...they should be afraid to come here illegally, I'd be...if it were me? I'd want to go by the laws...learn them, and be a working citizen, yanno? Meaning, contributing my share, taxes, etc. Listen, honestly, I wish things were as easily ironed out but, we must live our lives by laws and regulations, otherwise, everything becomes chaotic. Would you go enter another country illegally? I'd like to know your answer...and if you answer would be no, tell me why? Would you expect to be given something for nothing? Would you want to give back, contribute, maybe not in dollars and cents...but give back and be a part of the community? Its the attitude which I believe upsets people...its like coming onto my property waving flags saying you have a right to live in my house...yanno? Thanks Hush, for sharing... |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
LeeJ: quote: That might help in the tactical sense (i.e., the short-term), but in order to be effective in the strategic sense, we need to win the support of the Iraqi people. We need to persuade them that the so-called “jihad” of the Islamo-fascists is not only anti-kafir (anti-“unbeliever”), it is also anti-Muslim. In short, there is nothing holy about their insurgency – we need to hold strong to this fact and convince the Iraqi people of this. quote: I think our current immigration policy is bigoted toward Hispanics. Would we be calling for immigration reform if 90% of illegal aliens were white Canadians? What ever happened to “Give us your tired, poor, and huddled masses”??? I am much more in favor of a more open immigration policy that encourages immigrants to seek citizenship through the system. I think it is possible to do this while balancing border security concerns. quote: With violent, repeat offenders, I think I agree. The punishment, however, must continue to fit the crime. There is a significant difference, in my opinion, between a serial rapist and someone reduced to stealing food to feed his or her family. Don't get me wrong ... both are problems. But one problem is solved by imprisonment and the other by "teaching a man to fish" (or making it possible for him to get to the lake). quote: I agree with one caveat. Increased funding alone is not the answer. I think we first need to identify teaching strategies that work, and then focus funding on the development and replication of evidence-based programs. Our education programs should be geared toward producing life-long learners and instilling in them a love of learning. Combined with #3 above, and you might be able to significantly curtail the incidence of repeat offenses. quote: Room and board for a student at Penn State University is over $20K per year. Even the more affordable State Universities in PA cost in excess of $12K per year. For a person making minimum wage and working full time, even the less expensive schools would represent more than 100% of their net income. What about enrollees in trade schools? Would that count? Are skilled carpenters, cabinet makers, masons, and electricians less valuable that college graduates with B.A.’s in Art History? What about non-credit courses in continuing adult education? Pottery classes? Basket weaving? These might seem inane, unless you happen to be an aspiring potter or basket weaver. quote: I think these strict laws and regulations already exist. NRC scrutiny of nuclear power plants is exceedingly high. Environmental regulations are also very strict when it comes to hazardous material production and management. When it comes down to it, it was the fail-safe redundancy at TMI that prevented it from being a Chernobyl. And when in the past thirty years have you heard of a Union Carbide-type accident on U.S. soil? My only wish is that we would try to be more proactive in our regulatory development and encourage other countries to adopt systems that have worked for us. quote: Public places … I can agree with this. Private businesses? I simply cannot. And where does it stop? No more Bloomin’ Onions and marbled, rare 18 oz. porterhouses at Outback? No more McDonald’s french fries? No more Ben & Jerry’s Cherry Garcia? At some point, we simply need to require people to accept the consequences for immoderate, potentially self-destructive, choices. quote: Public utilities are already required to submit this information to state regulators on a regular basis. State Consumer Advocates watch these things closely. I believe regulators can force the sale of public utilities that fail to meet quality and service standards. They are also required to notify customers when water quality is compromised. I’m comfortable with the state retaining jurisdiction over this. I think there could be tighter regulation of municipal authorities that provide utility service. But that is a different (and not so exciting) story. quote: So you oppose public welfare, but support corporate welfare? Where do governments go to make up the lost tax revenues? A quick question: is it possible for someone to be a “lifer” on welfare legitimately? quote: Soccer taught me lessons in teamwork. Weightlifting taught me the importance of staying in shape and how to do so safely. Football is still a useful metaphor to me when trying to explain the concepts of risk vs. reward to my employees trying to choose which mutual fund in their 401(k) plan to invest in. Not sure what sociology taught me, though. quote: Now THAT I agree with. It is entirely too difficult for under-funded interests to have equal representation in politics. If you don’t have a good-hearted and savvy politician to champion your cause (and doesn’t care that you can’t make significant contributions to his or her campaign), you may as well stay home and watch Seinfeld re-reruns. quote: I’m for sensitivity, but think the PC crowd has trivialized very important issues. Language is a powerful thing, and it is possible to dehumanize a person with a simple adjective preceding the word “person.” When we say, “black person,” “Muslim person,” “disabled person,” “gay person,” are you more inclined to focus on the word “person” or the label? In many ways, the anti-Semite creates the Jew and the bigot creates the minority race insomuch as the anti-Semite and bigot regard the Jew and minority races to be subhuman. This takes me back to my response to #1. The key is to appeal to the common humanity we all share. When we all view one other as fellow, equal human beings, the misogyny, the racism, the discrimination on the basis of religion (or lack thereof), disability, marital status, etc. stand far better chances of fading away. Jim |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Hey Jim Hi, thanks so much for your input… quote: That might help in the tactical sense (i.e., the short-term), but in order to be effective in the strategic sense, we need to win the support of the Iraqi people. We need to persuade them that the so-called “jihad” of the Islamo-fascists is not only anti-kafir (anti-“unbeliever”), it is also anti-Muslim. In short, there is nothing holy about their insurgency – we need to hold strong to this fact and convince the Iraqi people of this. Jim - I agree, your idea would be paramount, but, how can you change a thousand year culture? That would be like them coming over here and trying to make us believe it’s ok, to do what they are doing…? quote: I think our current immigration policy is bigoted toward Hispanics. Would we be calling for immigration reform if 90% of illegal aliens were white Canadians? What ever happened to “Give us your tired, poor, and huddled masses”??? I am much more in favor of a more open immigration policy that encourages immigrants to seek citizenship through the system. I think it is possible to do this while balancing border security concerns. Jim I don’t think our immigration policy is bigoted toward Hispanics, its just that so many of them have chosen to violate not only our immigration policy but take advantage of our systems. And I believe I said, I’d like to see our immigration laws put in place and adhered to, then I agree with the rest of your quote on this subject. quote: With violent, repeat offenders, I think I agree. The punishment, however, must continue to fit the crime. There is a significant difference, in my opinion, between a serial rapist and someone reduced to stealing food to feed his or her family. Don't get me wrong ... both are problems. But one problem is solved by imprisonment and the other by "teaching a man to fish" (or making it possible for him to get to the lake). Jim - totally agree with you on this subject…to the max…and I’m sorry if I didn’t clairify that issue better. Sometimes my brain wanders quote: I agree with one caveat. Increased funding alone is not the answer. I think we first need to identify teaching strategies that work, and then focus funding on the development and replication of evidence-based programs. Our education programs should be geared toward producing life-long learners and instilling in them a love of learning. Combined with #3 above, and you might be able to significantly curtail the incidence of repeat offenses. Jim – Again, totally agree, adding courses on parenting and teaching a class on behavior such as the focus on decisions and how they affect so many other people, and also assuming responsibility for your choices, regardless of the circumstance, and teaching that problems can be solved…teaching respect for the law and for our elders, as our elders were the founders and reason for our being. quote: I think these strict laws and regulations already exist. NRC scrutiny of nuclear power plants is exceedingly high. Environmental regulations are also very strict when it comes to hazardous material production and management. When it comes down to it, it was the fail-safe redundancy at TMI that prevented it from being a Chernobyl. And when in the past thirty years have you heard of a Union Carbide-type accident on U.S. soil? My only wish is that we would try to be more proactive in our regulatory development and encourage other countries to adopt systems that have worked for us. Jim Disagree…heres why....even though as you say, these laws are there, but they are not always implemented with the safety of the public in mind. Jim, my cousin’s daughter worked at a hospital in DE, during that year, there were 3 chemical accidents, that were never covered by the news, it was all hush, hush, and so, my cousin’s daughter moved back home, stating in years to come, those generations down there would be glowing. quote: Public places … I can agree with this. Private businesses? I simply cannot. And where does it stop? No more Bloomin’ Onions and marbled, rare 18 oz. porterhouses at Outback? No more McDonald’s french fries? No more Ben & Jerry’s Cherry Garcia? At some point, we simply need to require people to accept the consequences for immoderate, potentially self-destructive, choices. Jim - I can’t agree more, and some of us here knew, it would only be a matter of time, until they started attacking obesity. Yanno, I’ve learned, whenever the news media starts coving an issue as such, I always go, ut ohhhhh…but, this I know to….my mom has a breathing disability…and I smoke. I would never smoke in my home, or anyone else’s home for that matter…so for me, smoking outside isn’t a problem...but, its like opening a can of worms, once laws as such start to pass, the special interest groups want more and more…and it never ends…now, I’ve heard, they want to pass a law that you can’t smoke in your car with a child under the age of 10 or something of the like?????? Why don’t they energize all that money they're spending on smoking laws and really try to help children, demanding a child molester be put away for good?????? quote: Public utilities are already required to submit this information to state regulators on a regular basis. State Consumer Advocates watch these things closely. I believe regulators can force the sale of public utilities that fail to meet quality and service standards. They are also required to notify customers when water quality is compromised. I’m comfortable with the state retaining jurisdiction over this. I think there could be tighter regulation of municipal authorities that provide utility service. But that is a different (and not so exciting) story. Jim – yes, your right, they are, but because I worked construction, I know differently…wish things were on the up and up as you described, but they are not, believe me. If you want some examples, I’d be glad to offer them up to you. quote: So you oppose public welfare, but support corporate welfare? Where do governments go to make up the lost tax revenues? A quick question: is it possible for someone to be a “lifer” on welfare legitimately? Jim - No, I don’t oppose public welfare, I believe that everyone one of us, at some time or another in our lives, have needed assistance, with bills, etc. What I oppose is someone who lives off of that system for life, which in turn trains their children, that it is ok to do that. It is not. The saying “Welfare breeds welfare is so true” Quote: I’m for sensitivity, but think the PC crowd has trivialized very important issues. Language is a powerful thing, and it is possible to dehumanize a person with a simple adjective preceding the word “person.” When we say, “black person,” “Muslim person,” “disabled person,” “gay person,” are you more inclined to focus on the word “person” or the label? In many ways, the anti-Semite creates the Jew and the bigot creates the minority race insomuch as the anti-Semite and bigot regard the Jew and minority races to be subhuman. This takes me back to my response to #1. The key is to appeal to the common humanity we all share. When we all view one other as fellow, equal human beings, the misogyny, the racism, the discrimination on the basis of religion (or lack thereof), disability, marital status, etc. stand far better chances of fading away. Jim… Ok, then allow me, if you will to say it differently…I believe our common humanity people in prisons should be looked at, and studied…and it should be brought out in public the majority of persons in those prisons…the problems for this might be lack of education or understanding of potential and opportunities. Also, if a white cop, shoots a black man because the black man had a gun and shot at the white cop, or stabbed the white cop...the black man is responsible for breaking the law… and if we reverse the situation, it should of course be the same, but unfortunately, some do not see it that way... in my book, if you do the crime, you do the time, and that is the way common humanity should be viewed All to often Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton and their groups are there raising the roof b/c a white man shot a black man in self defense. What is that???? If a black man shoots a white man, in self defense, you don't have that? Now, if the situation is reversed, black man cop shoots white man criminal, there is no one there to protest…as it should be. But Jackson and Sharpton love the political agenda part of it and in turn, people are getting things all screwed up. Jim, what I’m saying is, another subject taken all the way to the other end of the spectrum, which protects the criminals… not fair to law abiding citizens....again…don’t care the color of your skin…if you commit a crime, i.e. robbery with a weapon, robbery with weapon & intent to harm, assault with weapon & intent to harm, murder, rape, and child molestation…no matter the color of skin…all laws should be respected, and if the law is broken, then the person that broke that law should be given a trial, and if found guilty, then committed to prison or a mental facility. Equality also stands for respect for the law? I believe that is exactly what Martin Luther King preached. Thanks Jim for all your input [This message has been edited by LeeJ (02-08-2007 12:02 PM).] |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
LeeJ: quote: Your position seems defeatist in a number of ways. If it possible to negatively affect a culture in a matter of generations, it is certainly positive to positively affect a culture in just as short a time. Besides that, I don't think we have to do much to persuade all people in the Middle East. I would also be more cautious about using the term “they” to describe “them.” Every Muslim I’ve ever known has been peace loving and pleasant. We also owe the preservation of much of Western philosophy to Muslim cultures. What we should be opposing is a radical interpretation of the Sharia that would impose undue hardships on women and non-Muslims in Islamic nations. I think it is important for us to assure non-fascist Islamic leaders that they have our support and, if necessary, our protection. I believe many hesitate to speak out due to fear of violent reprisals on them and their families. Too many fascist-Islamists consider fatwas to be licenses to kill. quote: Many of these men and women only want to feed their families and give their kids a shot at a life they couldn’t have in Mexico/Cuba/Latin America. I have nothing but sympathy for these people who otherwise obey the laws of our land. quote: I think there is a difference between an informed decision to work in a place where accidents can result in injury and willfull or negligent conduct on the part of an employer. In PA recently, several highway workers were killed while building a bridge across the Susquehanna river. Accidents happen in hazardous environments, and the courts are always available to people who believe they suffered harm as a result of the willful or negligent acts of another. quote: Because these issues are very important to some people and Big Tobacco is a convenient, difficult to defend target. quote: The problem isn’t necessarily the regulations, then, but in the lack of adequate manpower to enforce them in every circumstance. This simply isn’t realistic. By the way … your construction firm didn’t build my house, did they?  quote: I’d hope you’d be willing to modify your position in the positive. That is, public welfare support exists to provide support for people who need it. If such support requires a lifetime of public support, then we should not disparage people who receive it on the taxpayer’s nickel. A needs-driven public welfare system is a desirable thing, I think. Even if it is very costly and support is extended over a very long period of time, if the individual circumstances warrant it. quote: And my concern remains that we are sure to emphasize first and foremost that such crimes are committed by one man (or woman) against another man (or woman). If you’ve ever had a chance to read Camus’ “The Stranger,” in which the anti-hero, Meursault, shoots and “Arab” and is arrested and put on trial because of it. It isn’t until late in the novel that the often-mentioned “Arab” is referred to as “a man” by Meursault’s lawyer. It isn’t until this time the Meursault realizes the gravity of what he has done. I will try to be sensitive to you here. We Westerners have a frightening habit of referring to others as “Others.” That is, non-Anglo-American people become subhuman “thems” … the Muslims … the Mexicans … the welfare moms … they … the Other. It bothers me that, when we speak of such people, we often speak as authentic human beings voicing our opinions from positions of superiority. It is a position that, by its very nature, is incompatible with the humility that leads us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. The story of the Good Samaritan is a great example of a Samaritan (viewed by 1st century Hebrews as despised people) going out of his way to help a fellow human being who has been victimized by others, and passed over by people who, based on their self-styled moral superiority, should have been the first to stop and help an injured traveler. Before we are able to address the problem adequately in the Middle East, we must understand the Muslims there as being people who have been freed by an oppressive Western Colonialism only to be oppressed again by fascists and radical natives of their homeland. We can’t solve the immigration problem adequately until we recognize the human misery that compels many people born in other countries to uproot their families and seek out a better life in a strange land (my Grandmother’s family did just this during the Irish Potato Famine). And we cannot solve the welfare problem if we do not look squarely at the people who rely on public support to get through the day. Jim |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Lee- think of it this way. I personally do not know all the details of the immigration process, so I can't claim to be an expert on it. But, I know we have limits on how many people we accept... of course a lot of hispanics come here illegally... duh... it's the closest country, and compared to Canadians, Mexicans have a lot more to gain by escaping the poverty of their home country. Would I enter a country illegally? From the point of view of an American, someone who has a job and a home, and has certain freedoms guarenteed, I say no. But imagine living right next door to somone... you being abjectly poor, and your neighbor being so rich that they routinely throw food, clothes, and other necessities in the trash... but when you try to pick through their leftovers, your neighbor says "Get off my property- you can't have any!" Technically, it is the rich nieghbor's right... no poorer person is entitled to a richer person's wealth. But just because we have a right to let people in or not, as an autonomous nation... it doesn't make it right for us to deny access to (as Jim brought up) the poor huddled masses. And in the poor person's shoes... yeah, maybe I would feel entitled. If my kids were starving while America's children are having an obesity epidemic... no, maybe I wouldn't feel bad about skimming some excess off the top. Ethical? No, maybe not... but entirely understandable as part of human nature. 'Your right Hush, it isn't at this present time realistic putting them back, until our boarders are shured up and full proof b/c they just keep coming back, again and again...they fear no consequences for their actions, and there should be...they should be afraid to come here illegally, I'd be...if it were me? I'd want to go by the laws...learn them, and be a working citizen, yanno? Meaning, contributing my share, taxes, etc.' Uh... that's not what I meant. I think it's unrealistic to kick people out and back into a poverty-stricken environment because to me, that simply doesn't jibe with the idea of living in a humanistic, caring society. I think a more humane approach would be to usher the immigrants currently here through the requirements for citizenship while incorporating a more all-encompassing immigration policy. Also, as a side note... I am apparently the only one I know who really doesn't care all that much if someone doesn't know English. I work in healthcare. That means patients who don't speak English, and doctors with such heavy accents I have to make them spell things out sometimes. Maybe it's just because I'm used to it? Doesn't really bug me. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Jim - I like the way you look at things, explain them and are very realistic and open minded about them...thanks for taking the time to explain... and uhhhh, nope, did heavy and highway construction....we built roads...installed utility pipe lines, etc, laid blacktop and concrete...worked on 3 sections of I-78 and worked on 80 and 380.... thanks so much |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Hush, you said I think a more humane approach would be to usher the immigrants currently here through the requirements for citizenship while incorporating a more all-encompassing immigration policy. Hush, how would you accomplish such a feat when we don't know who is illegal and who is not...and, the police are not allowed to inquire upon pulling them over?????? And yes we have limits on how many should be left in , but, my God, there are thousands upon thousands here illegally...I forget the statistics of how many per day that is equivalent to? Thanks so much for your input |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Jim must have posted while I was typing... but he said in a more eloquent and encompassing way something I was trying to express with my example... these people are people... you can talk about gangs and welfare... but it is poverty that breeds these conditions, and by refusing a legal inlet to these people, and refusing to give them a chance to earn a respectable living, we perpetuate the cycle ourselves. By creating a welfare system that slashes healthcare benefits if mom takes a raise at work, or happens to own a home rather than rent, we have created conditions that cause people to remain poor, by necessity. My mother was pretty much forced into destitution, with a hospital literally kicking her out and no nursing home accepting her, because she was unable to sell her house in this buyers market. I had set up a hospital bed for my disable mother in the skeleton of a home, ready to set up shop there with her, because our healthcare system cast aside a woman in a wheelchair, telling her that MedCorp was coming to pick her up and she had better find a place to go by tomorrow. This is our system... it has nothing to do with Mexicans, or illegal immigrants, or "them!" I just feel for those without anywhere to go... and for those who, like my mother, must become poor in order to survive... look at the plight of our elderly who must choose whether to eat or take their meds, and who illegally get drugs from Canada, while our government perpetuates the idea that these meds are somehow 'substandard' in order to make it illegal to buy meds from anyone other than our companies... What about them? Do you blame these poor, these elderly people, for seeking healthcare? Do you blame the mother of four for not taking a promotion at work, or for staying in an apartment in the projects, because any attempt to improve her situation in life means her kids go without health insurance? But instead, I hear people complaining about illegal immigrants... and its not just you, Lee, but your line here is the same I've heard over and over again in my middle-class, factory town, mostly white upbringing, and it infuriates me! It really does. My father, my coworkers, even my friends- talk about "them," or "blacks" or "Arabs" (With an "A" as in "Ankle"). Well, point the finger at our government- you made the point about special interest groups controlling our leaders like puppets, and I commend you for recognizing and caring about that... but so many people don't. Of course big business wants strict immigration laws enforced... I mean, if we let everyone come to the U.S., where we have minimum wages, where are our companies going to get labor for a dime a day? I'm sorry if it seems like I'm attacking you Lee, I'm not trying to, I'm just kind of going off in general. I just find, as a nurse- you have to suspend judgement, and you see people as people by necessity, because my Spanish-speaking migrant patient is the same to me as my American-born patient, and the linguistics professor I take care of is the same to me as the prisoner shackled to his hospital bed. Exposure to diversity breeds this kind of acceptance, or one would think it would, but I still deal with prejudice in the workplace as well... I guess I can get off my soapbox for a minute. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Hush, please don't feel like you have to apologize...it's ok...even though we may disagree on points and issues...I certainly understand your side and why...and respect your opinion. Perhaps we both have learned something today? I'm glad you are who you are...honestly... thanks so much for you input |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
[Would like to see a mandatory draft...all those who graduate from high school, must report for training and duty up to two years after graduation.] WHAT ARE YOU KIDDING!? I mean with all do respect, that's a horrible idea. I refuse to be sucked into the army. The American Military is a group of bullies who stick their noses and guns into other people's affairs. A mandatory draft would cripple the youth of this country. Look I love Germany, but their policies on mandatory drafts are despicable. Every male has to serve... no matter what. Does that seem like a good idea to you? Not to me. I probably sound like I'm coming on too strongly about this but it is something that really concerns me. I refuse to be forced into an organization whose sole purpose is killing, imperialization and training killers, remember Waco? Look at Iraq, look at how we treated our prisoners in Iraq, look at Vietnam, look at how many military bases we have in other countries. We're so concerned with sticking our fingers in other countries we can't take care of ourselves during a crisis on our own turf, say Katrina. For the most part, I agree with a lot of your points. I agree with you on number 12 to a certain extent. I think we need to be respectful with the names we are using to define each other. And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone." |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
my son served, and lots of other young people I know who ended up making careers out of it...or gaining a career from it... I asked my son what he thought about a manditory draft and his reply was I think it's a great idea...it helps to mature young folks, give them a sense of responsibility, gives them direction and a sense of the endless opportunities out there, they might otherwise not know they had. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
I certainly mean no disrespect to either you or your son. But quite frankly, I'd expect him to say that. Not only was he in the army but I'm sure he wanted to join to begin with and judging by your reply, he's probably still in it. That's great that he got a lot out of it. I absolutley applaud him, you have a lot to be proud of. But consider if he didn't want to enlist and he was forced to. Forcing someone to do something against their will doesn't sound like a great idea to me. And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone." |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Edward: quote: Nice. All Jews are cheap, all Muslims are terrorists, all Africans are savages, all gay men are prissy, all lesbians sport mullets, all Asians are good at math, all Mexicans are lazy, and, of course, all American military men are bullies who stick their noses and guns into other people's affairs. My father ran radar picket in the South Pacific so he could sink the ships of the poor empirial Japanese. My maternal grandfather was a medic at Normandy and Bastogne so he could fix up his wounded, fellow bullies so they could stick their guns and noses in German affairs. Hmmm. To quote "The Onion" ... "Stereotyping is a real time saver." I guess the only difference is that it was funny when it's obviously a joke. Otherwise, it is just plain sad. Jim |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Wow Jimbo, "All Jews are cheap, all Muslims are terrorists, all Africans are savages, all gay men are prissy, all lesbians sport mullets, all Asians are good at math, all Mexicans are lazy" That's not a very good view of people. Funny you didn't have anything bad to say about the white man. You might want to rethink your views on stereotyping. Here's where you messed up: "American military men are bullies." Didn't say that. I said the organization, not the individuals. The soldiers just do what they're told; they're just doing their job. The high brass is wrong, not so much the service men actually fighting. And happy to hear that about your dad and grandad. My family was very deep in the military back in the old days as well. I don't really know a family who doesn't have members who didn't try their hand in military. Another thing, I am talking about today Jimmy. Obviously the world wars and wars with purpose weren't butting in where we didn't belong. You're confused with what era I'm in. I'm talking about when we do butt in where we don't belong. I condemn how the military conducts themself today, not forty or fifty years ago. Let's stick to the subject shall we. And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone." |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Ed, you said "I certainly mean no disrespect to either you or your son. But quite frankly, I'd expect him to say that. Not only was he in the army but I'm sure he wanted to join to begin with and judging by your reply, he's probably still in it. That's great that he got a lot out of it. I absolutley applaud him, you have a lot to be proud of. But consider if he didn't want to enlist and he was forced to. Forcing someone to do something against their will doesn't sound like a great idea to me." My son is no longer in the Air Force, but is now a police officer. What he meant is, this...a lot of people who come into the military are from low income families...not all, but the majority of them, therefore, they don't realize the many options available to them...all they see is poverty and drugs, they want out, but they don't know how. The military rears them to maturity, to respect themselves, in turn, they respect others, gaining confidence, and an insight that there is nothing they cannot accomplish if they put they're minds and hearts into it. David, my son, was floundering upon graduation, and had no idea at that time what he wanted to do with his life. There was an Air Force recruiter (Rick)working down the hall from me. We became friends... I went home and discussed what Rick relayed to me, and suggested that David stop in and talk with Rick...just to learn more about the issue, that maybe it might be another option to explore. He did, and after about a month or two of thinking it through, he joined. David at that time, didn't possess the confidence then, that he did when he came home. He left a child and came home a man. He also was very tall and slumped himself over for years, to feel smaller and fit in with the other kids...the military taught him to stand up straight. Also, he was shy, soft spoken...now, he's simply weighing issues, options and situations over in his mind...he looks at the entire picture before he concludes. Actually, I wish I could be more like him, and that is the truth. The military gave him options...helped him be confident and not fear decissions he made...knowing it was all about trial and error...it gave him career options, and the ability to learn how to fly, to learn languages, to continue education while in...to also learn agility, and a whole lot more. There is good and bad in everything on this planet, good and bad people, good and bad in organizations, our work force, good and bad food, (trans fats) (by the way, I really loved those trans fats) unfortunately it isn't all good, but, the military also taught him to deal with that realistically. I think, a manditory draft would be a great way to teach kids what parents cannot give them or know nothing about...and I also think, if the draft were manditory and everyone's kid had to serve two years, those who are way to quick to go to war, might also rethink their decissions to do so, if it meant their son or grandson going. Also, all those kids who go in for two years, well, I betcha when they came out, the majority would say, they were glad they had the opportunity to do so...and you might be surprised, how many would make the military their career. I think a strong military has a great trickle effect on a lot of other things, such as truth, respect for others, realizing the importance of team work, patience, intellectual skills...etc While they were in the military, if we had a disaster here in the U.S. we would certainly once again have troops to respond and help rebuild. We would have troops to help reinforce our boarders...a strong military is a strong country, with a knowlege of how to survive. Again, remember, we are forced to go to school, forced to pay taxes, so, going into the military for 2 years, is not going to hurt anyone. Now, tell me, if you will, why you deem the entire military organization bullies? Some of the finest men and women on the face of this earth Ed, are lifers in the military and they are not bullies, but well trained human beings... So tell me, if you would be so kind, what frightens you about the military? thanks for your reply |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Lee, I have no doubt that a lot of people get a great deal out of the military. I never said otherwise. I believe that if the military is truly your calling then you will join the military. Just how you described to me how you got your son into it. That was a great thing you did. Why should others not have the option like he did? Do you really think things would have turned out the way they did if he wasn't gradually introduced into it? If he was just thrown right into the army with absolutely no say? "I think, a mandatory draft would be a great way to teach kids what parents cannot give them or know nothing about...and I also think, if the draft were mandatory and everyone's kid had to serve two years, those who are way to quick to go to war" I think you need to reword that. I think what you mean to say is "the ARMY would be a great way to teach kids what parents cannot give them or know nothing about" not mandatory draft. "Again, remember, we are forced to go to school, forced to pay taxes, so, going into the military for 2 years, is not going to hurt anyone. " Very true, very true. But you can't get far in life without school and paying taxes is the law (Al Capone didn't get that ). But you understand that people get very far in life without the military so it can't be compared to school. And joining the army isn't the law so you can't compare it to paying taxes. Now what if they forced people to be medical guinea pigs to help test new vaccines? Yes, they would be doing a good thing for the world by testing new drugs to save lives but they should not be forced to do it. "Now, tell me, if you will, why you deem the entire military organization bullies?" I believe I already listed a few reasons. And of course the whole of the military is not in the wrong. They just seem to have their "priorities" out of control right now and I don't expect it to better any time soon. "So tell me, if you would be so kind, what frightens you about the military?" Lol, ma'am the only things that frighten me are Communism, drug addicts and blood. I do not "fear" the military, that would be ridiculous. I simply don't believe in killing people or being trained to kill people or supporting an association who would rather settle their disputes with heavy artillery rather than words. Nor would I condone a law that forces a person into any organization, whether that be waste management, medical testing, or the military. And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone." |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Scared of drug addicts? Really? Why? I would think the addiction would be scarier than the addict. Lee- 'Again, remember, we are forced to go to school, forced to pay taxes, so, going into the military for 2 years, is not going to hurt anyone.' Uh... really? Tell that to the families of our dead servicemen and women shipped home in a box from Iraq. Would women be included in this mandatory draft? |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Hush, I've had some experiences with them and I don't really want to get into it. "Would women be included in this mandatory draft?" Good question. And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone." |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Hush Uh... really? Tell that to the families of our dead servicemen and women shipped home in a box from Iraq. No one wants to or should loose a child..but in regards to you comment, most, "not all" but most parents say....it's what he/she wanted to do...and they accept it...as I would have to if something happened to my son. yanno Hush, if everyone felt as you do, and this is a sincere question, not a mockery, or insult, but a question...who would be there to protect our country in the event of an invasion? If everyone felt like you & Ed do, there would be no one in the military? I don't get that? Honest, I don't understand why especially in times when there are no wars going on, why a manditory draft would be so offensive? I would think, most people, not all, would be proud to serve their country...would want the benefits the military has to offer? I guess I've simply got blinders on? Would girls be included in the draft? Yes....absolutely yes |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
It would be MANdatory that women are drafted. A citizen is a citizen. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
yes women have fought for so long for equal rights...hey, they can go in locker rooms after professional football games, parents fight for their daughters to play varsity football, baseball and basketball....???? Why not have a manditory draft for women, I think it would be really a great experience for all American's youth. Besides, my son's friend Nancy is a single mother, in the Airforce for life, she loves it. She is a fantastic mother, an asset to her community, a very feminine gal, blond, and pretty and has been dating a pilot for 3 years now. Not that this has anything to do with the discussion, I'm just so happy for her. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
"who would be there to protect our country in the event of an invasion? If everyone felt like you & Ed do, there would be no one in the military?" I don't think you quite get what I'm saying. There will always be a military. There is a strong military now without a mandatory draft. I never said or even implied that we should dissolve our military. That would be a ridiculous idea. Obviously we need a military, there's no question about that. It's how we use it and right now, the military is being abused; our military power is being abused. "Honest, I don't understand why especially in times when there are no wars going on" Last time I checked, we're in a war. And our next targets are already lined up (Korea, Iran ect.) When won't we be at war? You asked what we would tell the 2008 presidential candidates at which time you said mandatory draft. Do you think war will be over by 2008? I don't. "I would think, most people, not all, would be proud to serve their country" A person should be proud to serve their country, not be forced to serve their country. To serve means to offer. It's not an offering if the person has no choice on the matter. And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone." |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
LeeJ~ There is a dark side to everything. I've been around the military all my life. Several generations of soldiers in my family. Grew up on military posts. Married a military man. Do I have respect for the military? Yes. I respect every known and unknown effort in their duty of protecting this country as servicemen and servicewomen. They will tell you that many alongside them with weapons in their hands do not deserve to be or need to be in the military. TheCommanding Officers will tell you this. The soldiers will tell you this. Not everyone belongs in the military and many are ticking bombs with loaded weapons or they are users and abusers of the system, and they are a threat to themselves and the platoons they serve with. Think about it. Would you want to go to war with someone forced to be in your company or someone who will follow orders and serve with their minds and their hearts in the right place? Please don't generalize on patriotism. Not everyone loves his/her country or else we wouldn't have to hire Hispanics to tend and harvest our crops. My grandfather lost his farm years ago due to the fact that he couldn't PAY anyone local to come and work for him. The ones that did stole his equipment. The Hispanics have saved many farms and they work circles around the locals here, so while I do agree they need to be legal in every sense of the word, I can't knock their work ethic in my community. When one of the locals died, his wife had to harvest in mourning, as a widow in the field. The Hispanics showed up and helped her harvest (for free)her crop which was the only source of her income for the year. So on an agricultural level, the Hispanics ARE helping this country, and I suspect there are several other arenas they are thriving in because I've been on the hiring side and I couldn't get citizens to SHOW UP on the job. Whether that be construction, factory, or sub-contracting. The rest is a red-tape mess for institutions to start weeding through with more expertise than you or I have. Mandatory draft? How 'bout mandatory mater pickers? Of course I'm being sarcastic, but if you can't get a red-blooded American to help with the supply and demand of our nation's food sources, then something is wrong, on the ground level, you know? Something is very wrong and forcing someone to fight for their country when they wouldn't work the soil if they had to is a character flaw that doesn't belong in any army. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
'yanno Hush, if everyone felt as you do, and this is a sincere question, not a mockery, or insult, but a question...who would be there to protect our country in the event of an invasion?' If everyone felt as I do (that there shouldn't be a mandatory draft) the same amount of people would be there as there are now... they joined up without a draft. 'No one wants to or should loose a child..but in regards to you comment, most, "not all" but most parents say....it's what he/she wanted to do...and they accept it...as I would have to if something happened to my son.' That's the point. If their kids did it on their own free will, that's one thing. But if every kid was drafted after high school- if my kid was drafted into the armed forces unwillingly, and killed in duty... that would not be my response. I don't even want to imagine what my response would be. Ed pretty much said what I was going to- not everyone is suited for the military. You did construction- what if everyone was drafted into construction? You think they would all like it? I'm a nurse, and I went to school with people who wanted to be nurses and weren't cut out for it... would you want to be forced to be a nurse? And, if people are forced into a certain career (even for a mere two years) that they didn't want to do, how do you think it would affect the quality of work being turned out by that group of employees (or soldiers)? |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Rwood and Hush thanks so much for your comments...and I do understand what you are saying and know what you have both offered to be true... surely I don't mean to sound biggoted I simply feel if you want to live in America, it should be done legally and by the system. rwood, I know what you've stated about some in the service with weapons in their hands shouldn't have been there, b/c my son also told me the same...but it is not the majority of servicemen/women with that type of mentality. And yes indeed there are some users and abusers as in all things...I believe I stated that before... Also, as well as there are some mightly fine people who are kind, caring people, there are those who run drugs, and use the system to cheat the American Tax Payers. My thoughts are not so closed that I'm thinking this manditory draft would force people into careers they do not like. I'm simply saying, if there was a manditory draft for lets say 18 months to 2 years...in that time, lots of kids would learn what kids today are not learning at home from their parents. You hope that when they are through, the military would keep records on all who served, and weed those that are not suited for the military out...I'm also thinking there would perhaps be programs that would upon that time, counsel with these kids as to furthering their careers in many different fields other then the military, it would be their choice, and at that time, I believe you might have a lot more kids enter college then would if they hadn't served in the military. I simply think and believe a manditory draft would initiate a lot of inspiration in these kids...give them options...and a sort of stop over for a while to help them look at their lives and options with much more confidence in themselves, believing there isn't anything they can't do, if they work for it. Are you aware of the benefits offered by the military towards college credits, etc? Sorry, I didn't mean to generalize on patriotism...but I just find it to be a good system to get a kid's head on straight. Also, I do believe a lot of reason why people in America won't work the crops is because it surely doesn't pay that much and we've become a very materialistic society, therefore, people need to make more then the Hispanic/Latinos make because they don't need to live in $500,000.00 homes. They know how to impravise and live quit humbly. Also, I believe there are many many good people who come here from other countries...that are great workers and yes, can work circles around Americans...because they were poor and they want to work...today, we Americans take so much for granted and need to be paid so much more then we are really worth. Sorry, but I feel that is true. We are not humble and forget what it is to be poor. We today, can purchase anything we want without money...on time and with credit cards. Its certainly a different generation, that cannot do without. Anyway, I chose to work construction, b/c I was a single mom, and all my life worked on farms and with horses so I felt I had the strength to do so...it was good money, which left me home on weekends & evenings with my son, unlike waitress work, no benifits and all kinds of hours. Also, I don't believe when it comes down to it, anyone wants to go to war, fight and kill...do you? What I mean is, do you actually believe that men and women want to leave their families, go to another country to fight and kill people? I just think and honestly believe, that every man and woman child, of every nationality should have to serve another 2 years of their lifes, learning dicipline. Meaning, all children, even those who are here illegally. In the end, when they're time has been served, they can leave and go on to any career or college of their choice...hopefully with some good advice from counselors set up in the military to help get them going. I really believe, if everyone once again, had to serve for a small amount of time, it might help shape some into better citizens, by learning how to be mature, patient, adults who can now problem solve with confidence, not looking for quick fixes and realize they've done something totally different from what they were used to. Yes, indeed, not everyone would be cut out for it...but would that be the majority? To me, a manditory draft would be like a school, and surely not worse for wear for most kids. I'm not talking about forcing them into any career... and yes, absolutely, there is good and bad in everything...always always...you've always had people out there since the beginning of time, using others to get rich quick or gain power...who are mentally so self absorbed they can see nothing else, but maybe the military might even help some of those people understand it takes teamwork, to be strong and get things done? I dunno, I just see our systems failing, due to corruption and a lot of people who cannot think clearly for themselves...dishonesty, and a great deal of stealing from the people, the taxpayers...and I believe the military would once again, help to bring back something that's been missing in our society. I could be wrong, but I believe if the hearts in the right place, it would be worth a try. Just to see how it works out... Thanks again sincerely to you both for your replies. |
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JL Member Ascendant
since 2004-04-01
Posts 6128Texas, USA |
Lee J, after much thought on what you have said I haven’t much to say except I am afraid your brilliant points are a few years too late, probably more like 40 years. This country of ours took a turn to the left (socialism) with the death of Kennedy, and the presidency of Johnson. Corruption is rampant in high places, and money is the key to power. Each and every year the tide of change in the direction of degradation is harder and harder to keep at bay. More schools of higher learning are teaching rules of promiscuity; it’s not how you are promiscuous or how much, but how to make it more appealing, acceptable, and more commonplace. The moral fiber that made this country great, and the belief in God’s word as the foundation of our laws has been drowned out by the voices of faulty science and so called progressive thought. Yes, this country’s governments have made some poor choices, no doubt. But overall we had it right for many, many years. Assuredly, you have echoed many sentiments of many people in this country. But dear heart, it is beyond our ability to turn this nation around. Prayer would help but for only a few years before this country is totally in the hands of the foolish. All I can say is God help us. You make very good points Lee J. HUG! JL Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. ~Jesus Christ |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
What if I don't want my kids learning what the military has to teach them? Not everyone who enters the military leaves for the better. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
ya know what Hush...I REALLY didn't want my son to join the military...I REALLY didn't want my son to go to Saudi...I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY (especially with the attitudes of people today of let someone else do it and the criminals are felt sorry for first) did't want my son to become a police officer. I hate the fact that my son is out there, putting his life on the line every single day, protecting you and your family, and me and everyone, and he is forced to ride alone, due to cut backs and not enough money for funding so they cannot hire more officers...after all, it is so much more important to put the money into special interest groups like people against smoking, yanno I HATE the fact that his buddy (a cop) got shot Friday night, doing his job....a simple routine stop...I HATE the fact that my son's got a 4 year old daughter and he's out there putting his life on the line protecting people, who prefer to put our heads in the sand and pretend it isn't going on or really happening around us, or to us....until, of course, WE need a COP, then it's a whole different story...I hate the fact that some say, "It takes a very special person to be a police officer" Why does my son have to be so special??????? I HATE the FACT that MORE and MORE CRIMINALS are Illegal IMMEGRANTS carrying guns, running drugs, driving without licenses, or car insurance...and yet a police officer is not allowed to ask if they are a citizen of the U.S.??????? butcha know what, it isn't always about what WE as parents want...there are some things we must do and face regardless of if we want them or not...sometimes life can be uncomfortable, unsafe, & hurtful, the unknown of tomorrows facing us.... and yes, some do not come out better, but it is not the majority that that happens to...it starts in the beginning, with the parents and how they raise they're kids.... in the end, kids are kids and they are going to do what they want, regardless of what the situation is, there is a time when a parent must let them go, to make their own mistakes and learn from them, some will be hard mistakes, and some not so hard...but the fact of the matter is...most kids go into the military and return better for it...more able to cope with reality...more able to confidently pick a career and realize, that if they want something, it isn't always fair to expect mom and dad to carry the load...they learn team work, how to be leaders, how to be listeners...they get to decide...regardless what we think or want for them...and we shouldn't try to put fear in our children, fear to do something that is not part of our own condiditoning....we should encourage them to branch out...as I said, a manditory draft would be only an additional 18 months to 2 years out of their lives... Hey JL... Thanks so much for your offerings and comment... Yes, unfortunately I gravely fear you are right and this coutry is in danger and we have only ourselves to blame. We...will be I fear, our own demise. [This message has been edited by LeeJ (02-12-2007 11:21 AM).] |
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rhia_5779 Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334California |
Does everyone have to serve? ARe there any exceptions at all? |
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