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GIULIANI 2008
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GIULIANI 2008 |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan 
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. Give me a break. We’re not so desperate. It’s takes more than being calmly around while others die to be President. . |
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| © Copyright 2007 John Pawlik - All Rights Reserved | |||
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Given the dimensions of what happened on 9/11 John -- don't you think NYC was in huge danger of becoming chaotic if the proper leadership hadn't been in place at the time to keep things under control? Wouldn't it have been a tragedy of untold dimensions if on top of the WTC trauma there was the extra layer of citizen on citizen mayhem (let's think about L.A. riots for instance) that could have ensued in a panic? I don't think you're looking at the whole picture there. Doesn't it take SOMETHING to be the Mayor of one of the worlds largest cities to begin with -- let alone be a successful prosecutor? We've had good presidents with less pedigree. Like, a habadasher. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. There were a great many unsung heroes who made 911 less a catastrophe than it might have been. Giuliani riding a bandwagon of death to be President is to me more than unseemly. . |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Do you have a favorite, John? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Brad, Colin Powell, but he won’t take the job. John . |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
That's a good formula to make sure we fail to put the best of the best forward John. One can play the fear card tastelessly and shamelessly. Success is, however, success. When leadership triumphs over death -- the living celebrate. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. What success? By simply being there? Do you really think we pulled out of 911 because of one man? Take care Sir. . |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Because of one man? No. Because of capable leadership? Yes. Been to New Orleans lately? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Show me the man or woman who would not have done their job beyond pay because Giuliana was not there? . |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Ask any man or woman who has worked under a bad leader if he or she was able to do his or her best work? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Here’s news for you Sir A man or woman needs no leader to do best for what is right. . |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Well, you know... that is news to me. Because large operations require coordination, planning, training, resources, and EXECUTION. If we were talking about a man who was 2 days on the job playing with someone else's team -- you might have valid points. But, that just wasn't the case. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. And you really think it was Guiliana in charge? You disrespect the anonymous whose courage pulled us through. . |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Well, let's talk about those people. NYPD FDNY Thousands and thousands of volunteers from PD's and FD's across the country.... All of them heroes no doubt. There were Seargents, Lieutenants, Captains, Chiefs, and... at the top... a Mayor. Yes. That's the way it works. One man is in charge. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “One man is in charge.” Or rather a figurehead without which men and women would have done their jobs regardless. . . . |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Ok. New Orleans, New Orleans, New Orleans. Your suggestion is disrespecting all of the brave men and women who tried to do thier best in the face of incapable leadership. Did they TRY to do their best? You bet. Poor leadership failed them. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “Poor leadership failed them.” A lack of resources I understand. Yet a lack of leadership being the determining factor? I grant you we live in different worlds. . |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Poor planning. Poor coordination. Poor decisions. Poor utilization of available resources. Failure to lead. Coaches can't win without talented players -- that's true -- but talented players can't be part of a good team without good coaching. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Damn, I can't stand this. LR, it looks like we finally agree on something  Your NY and NO comparison illustrates the point to perfection.  |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Yeah, I have to agree with Rebel as well. A movie can't work without a good director. A plane cannot fly without a good pilot; sure, people with good intentions can try to fly it but they'll end up bloody abstract art on the ground. At any rate, I don't think Giuliani will be elected president. I personally wouldn't mind but I've heard things. Mostly about how people don't like him and his views on certain things; like that incident with the artwork. I thought he handled it well but other people didn't think so. I don't know who should win in 2008. Who knows? Maybe Nader will finally pull the rabbit out of the hat and win one for the kid that never got picked for dodgeball, LOL. And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone." |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. What decisions did Giuliana make that effected how 911 was responded to? . |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Not being an insider, I certainly can't cite specific details. But, as LR indicated, a machine the size of NYC does not operate in a vacuum in the face of such an emergency. It requires leadership and the mayor is at the top of the "food chain." More appropriately, if you don't believe he contributed significantly to the recovery effort then it behooves you to say why and where he failed. Remember, innocent until proven guilty and all that. Since he was in charge and things went extremely well, he deserves credit until some evidence uncovers that he failed and someone else actually directed the efforts. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Well there's plenty of evidence Pete, of a myriad of bad decisions and operational details that probably cost lives on 9/11. Like, for starters, Giuliani's insistence on placing Incident Command in the bottom of the World Trade Center. Complaints of bad walkie talkies, infighting between Police and Fire departments, communication breakdowns, and the like. Even general criticism in the 9/11 Commission Report about general prep for such an incident. Did Giuliani make mistakes? You betcha. Did he use a crisis consultant to tell him what to say to the city to keep everybody calm? Sure. Was that a bad thing? No. Ultimately -- in the wide scope -- we expect anyone who's doing something to make mistakes. But the agregate results showed us a situation that didn't go into complete meltdown. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “But the agregate results showed us a situation that didn't go into complete meltdown.” Because a great many unsung heroes did their job well. “Well there's plenty of evidence Pete, of a myriad of bad decisions and operational details that probably cost lives on 9/11. Like, for starters, Giuliani's insistence on placing Incident Command in the bottom of the World Trade Center. Complaints of bad walkie talkies, infighting between Police and Fire departments, communication breakdowns, and the like. Even general criticism in the 9/11 Commission Report about general prep for such an incident. Did Giuliani make mistakes? You betcha. Did he use a crisis consultant to tell him what to say to the city to keep everybody calm? Sure.” And this man should be President. Maybe you’re right. There were in fact survivors. Where do we sign up to vote? . |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
I can't say that qualifies him to be president, just that you can't legitimnately take away from what he accomplished, certainly with the help of many well-trained workers. As for presidential qualifications, how many presidents have been elected in our lifetimes who actually had proper qualifications? I don't know about any of you but I think I'll wait to se what shakes out in the next couple of years before making my decision. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Obviously John, we all have to wait a couple of years. In the meantime though we should be looking at contenders and see what we can learn about them. We should hope to be able to encourage/support the best candidates from either side of the aisle -- or a third party if we can find one. That way when it comes time to vote we could wind up with a real choice on our hands -- and little worry that no matter which way the vote went ideolgy-wise -- competencty wouldn't be a question. Personally, I like to hire losers. When I'm looking at a candidate's resume and look at all the stuff he or she has won at -- one of the first questions I'm going to have for that person is about the things they've lost at. I want to know what mistakes they made, how they handled them, what they learned. If somebody hasn't made mistakes -- and some big ones -- I'm not really into hiring them, because -- they're either liars, or they just haven't done much and they're going to be due for the big one's on my watch. By the time someone gets to the point where they're going to be a candidate for the Chief Executive of this country -- they should have a lot of mistakes under thier belt. The thing is, if you're just a figure head -- or merely present -- you aren't going to make any mistakes. If you're a hands on manager -- you're going to be driving the people below you a little bit nuts -- and that's not entirely bad. Inter-departmental infighting is NORMAL! It doesn't just apply to Police and Firefighters. It applies to Marketing and Engineering. Engineering and Manufacuring. Manufacturing and Distribution. One PIP clique and another PIP clique. Managers make plans and during execution adjustments always have to be made. We got to watch Rudy perform in real time. Fumbles, incomplete passes, yep. At the end of the game though -- he had the points on the board. Some people who want to look for reasons not to vote for somebody can placate thier predilections with any and all mistakes that person has ever made. Keep looking for the guy who hasn't made any -- and that will be the guy who's guilty of your original charge against Rudy. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
I have to agree. No one is perfect for President. Anyone will have faults. I have a strange way of looking at our system. To me, the presidency is sort of like having to use a dirty rag to clean up. I try to pick out the best and the cleanest and hope he'll lead us into a brighter future, instead of wiping everybody out or sweeping everything under the rug. Sorry, simplistic, but that's me for ya. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. So out of now three hundred million people this is the best we’ve got to be Commander in Chief with enough power to destroy the world or let it destroy itself? And what does that say? . |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Unfortunately we don't get to just go out and name whoever we want for president. Someone has to make the committment, financial and otherwise, to run. We only get to choose from among those who do so. Why don't you run, John? |
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