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Philadelphia Records Its 290th Murder For 2006
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Philadelphia Records Its 290th Murder For 2006 |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296
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Philadelphia has now recorded it's 290th murder for this year so far. and so the result http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=local&id=4596950 People are frantic...the other day, a woman's child was killed http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=local&id=4596915 I don't know when, people are going to wake up and realize...until we put the criminals behind bars, there is not one gun law that will detere violence and murders. The criminals will still acquire guns, underground and now even more expensive, and a lucrative business for anyone selling them underground.... It will be the honest people who adhere to gun laws, not the criminals...get the criminals off the streets, and we'll be doing something. That to me, is the answer. Do you think a criminal is going to march up to his local police department and hand over their guns? I don't think so. Do you think criminals care you you make a law that one can purchase one gun a month?????? We as a community are going to have to build many many more prisons, that should be, horrible places to go... ....and hound our judges who sentence these criminals (who are a menace to society), to jail for a very, very long time! If you break the law there should be strict consequences to fear.....I'm talking murders, people who rob stores at gun point, child molesters....any crime committed with a gun or knife or weapon that takes the life of another. If you are guilty of criminal assult with intent, then you belong in prison. How many of us have said, "What could they be thinking" after we hear our judges serving up ridiculous sentences? I wonder if they are parents, and think of how they would feel if their children were victimized. They, the judges have a responsiblity to society, to get these criminals off the streets. How many repeated offenders are out on the street? How many of these repeated offenders had parents that were not educated, living on welfare.... How many cops have to have their lives taken before judges get these criminals off the streets. Until the gangs are broken up, and criminals are put away...there is no gun law that will keep our streets and children and neighborhoods safe. Our country needs to realize the importance of real education...education Helps to keep citizens law abiding...realizing the effects their actions have on others. Education also, teaches the student, the importance of abilities, potentials that are open to them...and not to become dependent upon welfare...self gratification in reaching goals, confidence in our laws, and respect for oneself, which will glow respect for the lives of others. We need to hound our judges, to do their jobs and get these murders off the street, children and adults alike...anyone who takes the life of another, must be held accountable for their actions. There is no fear of consequences for our actions in this world today, we have become a world of pitiful excuses for the criminal, which in turn slaps the victim right in the face. I'd really like to pay my condolences to anyone who has ever been a victim of crime and apologize for our country allowing that criminal back out on the streets. I'm sorry our laws do not defend the victims of our nation...but the rights of the criminals. Then... adding insult to injury, they can go to jail, and gain a college degree on our tax money?????? Where is the justice in that? In work out rooms, tiled showers, libraries....and programs of all sorts???? I'd like to know your feelings on this issue. thanks so much for allowing me to vent I hope I inflicted no insult to anyone... and please feel free to educate me with your thoughts....and/or comments... |
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PhaerieChild Senior Member
since 1999-08-30
Posts 1787Aloha, Oregon |
There's a distinction for ya. I can't wait to read the tourist brochures for that one. It's pretty sad that the "city of brotherly love" (gag) can't live up to it's name. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Man, don't even get me started, LeeJ. I agree with you 1000%. In so many ways our jury system is such a complete joke. Somebody forgot along the way that the main object was supposed to be determining who was guilty and punishing them. We as a community are going to have to build many many more prisons, that should be, horrible places to go... I agree again and if you feel that way about criminals what do you feel about prisons where terrorists go? Just curious... |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
LeeJ quote: quote: quote: Maybe your country has realised the importance of education and is targeting your tax dollars where it would do most good, by educating offenders. As far as gun control goes I think the request for change in this case is reasonable, as it stands anyone can purchase as many guns as they like and then re-sell them with minimal controls in place. What the article suggests is that the guns are then used in crimes in surrounding states. While I agree that this legislation wouldn't stop illegally imported weapons getting into criminal hands it would stem the flow of legally purchased guns destined for illegal use. I do agree that the penalties for serious crime are not at present a sufficient deterrent and that judges should be given clear guidelines that stricter penalties should be handed down for serious crimes. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Deer: Yes, totally agree, now if we could only raise awareness & educate those who belieive that gun control is the answer.... PhaerieChild thanks for your comment, sad, isn't the word for it...in my book, it's an insult to our intellegence and law abiding citizens. Hey Grinch Good Morning quote: Grinch, we're taking about educating people who are a menace to society, it doesn't work...people who would shoot pregnant woman, pistal whip them for money...people who rape and/or moleste children, and kill them...yours & my children, people who would pistal whip the elderly for $10.00 to cop a fix...people who rob efficency stores/gas stations at gun point...and shoot people working there, even children. We're talking about Gang members who care nothing about anyone who gets in the way of their bullets... we're talking the absolute most frightening mean and uneducated people of society here, and people out there "really believe" they can be rehabilitated or controlled by gun laws? Grinch, I don't believe for one second that they can be educated, let alone rehabilitated? It has to come from the time they're born. Just some of my Thoughts..... You cannot rehabilitate an uneducated criminal who is strung out on drugs, or hungers with the thirst for youthful flesh, or gets off on taking someone's life in a brutal way. Rehabilitate? I think not! When I speak of education, I mean educating poverty stricken families to encourage them to educated their children from birth to stay in school, teach them morals and respect for life...respect for themselves... We need to get rid of these agencies that go into correctional institutions, thinking these repeated offenders can be rehabilitated, putting them back on the street, again, and again, to rob, to murder, rape, steal....prisioners...correctional facilities do not work...and if we'd take all that federally funded money and build bigger prisions that will house these people for the rest of their lives, you take them off the streets, you get their guns away from them. Now your doing something constructive to prevent crime, and protect society. They do not fit into society. They are a menace and a threat to society. Gun laws will do nothing to protect us from these criminals...It's a quick fix that people really believe will work and it always becomes policital around voting time... Do you believe, a criminal is going to go to a gun shop and legally purchase a gun? People like you and me, will do so, and we will adhear to any gun law proposed...why? Because we are law abiding citizens...Crimimals are NOT law abiding citizens, if they were, they wouldn't be called criminals...they have no respect nor care for abiding by any laws...to them, anything goes, no matter how, where and when... So, what you do with gun control is control those that can be controlled. Those who already respect the law and abide by it. You or me.... Criminals are going to purchase guns underground & off the streets from other criminals. Think about it, do you really believe a law prohibiting the sale of more then one gun a month is going to keep murderers down? The only thing gun laws will accomplish is provide a more lucritive business for underground gun salesmen (the criminals). You can go out into our nation and take everyone's guns you can find...but the criminals will still own guns, and obtain them...b/c they don't care about the laws...they are law breakers...and will do anything to purchase a gun off the street, from other criminals...the flow of underground guns cannot be controlled. If you start busting the men who are selling the guns illegally, and put them away for good, then your doing something. Then you go after the criminals....now that is a start. Hold them just as responsible as the man that bought the guns from him to rob, kill, steal, rape. What we need to do, is tackle the problem at the root of the problem...The criminals...put them away, and put them away for good. We're very lucky, we live in our middle class areas or higher. We have no idea what is really going on. feel the high they get off of murder... Until criminals and the mentally incompetent people who do not and will not fit into society are put away somewhere for good, society will continue to suffer the consequences. Would you want a gang moving into your area...how bout hard core drug dealers...selling drugs on your street corner, murdering kids b/c they can't pay for their drugs, gang wars and shooting all during the course of the night? You'd think by now, we'd learn. Unfortunately, when we loose a loved one to these criminals, we tend to educate ourselves and find out through these sad circumstances, what our judicial system does Not accomplish to protect American Citizens. Sheesh, talk about war on terror? How can we even begin to fight a war on terror, when we are over run with free criminals? Think about it? I consider myself a law abiding citizen...and feel no pity for anyone who does not possess respect for rules, the law, or human life....I feel very sorry for those who have been violated by criminals and will be effected for the rest of their lives. What about them, do they receive free counseling, rehabilitation? What about children who are raped by these animals...and yeah, they are animals. How would you feel if Charles Manson was released? Same issue...look how many times criminals are repeated offenders and out walking the streets again and again. One more thing...I have a friend whose son was a private investigator...undercover. Do you have any idea, how much money is spent, the time involved, to stake out crime, so they can arrest these criminals...only to have judges release them, or give them very little time in jail. This undercover police officer said..."I'm sick and tired of wasting the tax payers money, my time, putting my life on the line, to gain evidence against these criminals, only to have them get off on a miss-demeaner, or to have the judges set them fee. After all the taxpayers money was spent to catch these guys? Weeks, months, years of undercover survellance? He got out, and is now walking a beat, until retirement, he's fed up...he's had police brothers killed and he says, until the people of this country understand and do what's right for society, he's not going to put his life on the line any longer. He's got a wife and kids. Can you blame him? I don't know why people do not talk to police officers and find out their views, they are certainly more educated about this issue then we all are...??? Are you aware of the fact, that murders are to, repeated offenders? In and out of jail? I am SO trying to raise awareness here, that there is no gun law that is going to bring crime down...why, these criminals are laughing at us...with these silly laws that govern and are supposed to protect our society. thank you so much for the opportunity to vent. I suppose this hits close to home for me, cuz my son's a cop and the stories are unbelievable, so much so, ya have ta wonder sometimes, Is this the United States we're living in, our home? [This message has been edited by LeeJ (09-27-2006 11:29 AM).] |
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icebox Member Elite
since 2003-05-03
Posts 4383in the shadows |
I do not wish to get into an argument, but this statement (beyond the opinion of what is reasonable): "As far as gun control goes I think the request for change in this case is reasonable, as it stands anyone can purchase as many guns as they like and then re-sell them with minimal controls in place." ...is simply a gross mis-statement of fact. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
What has been the efficacy of mandatory sentencing of drug offenders in ending America's illegal drug problem? Is it more important to eliminate the environments that foster criminality or to punish criminals? Would you rather prevent your murder or have your murder avenged? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: http://www.ceasefirepa.org/gun_traffic.htm quote: As far as gun control goes I think the request for change in this case is reasonable, as it stands anyone can purchase as many guns as they like and then re-sell them with minimal controls in place. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I'm curious, Lee, if that means you've never broken a single law in your entire life? Not even a traffic ticket? Or perhaps exceeded the speed limit but didn't get caught? I certainly don't want details, but I do wonder if you're laying claim to a perfect record. Assuming that your answer is that you're not perfect, could you also tell us if you believe your infraction (and we don't need to know what it was) should have been punishable by life imprisonment? |
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icebox Member Elite
since 2003-05-03
Posts 4383in the shadows |
“As far as gun control goes I think the request for change in this case is reasonable, as it stands anyone can purchase as many guns as they like and then re-sell them with minimal controls in place.” Change to what? The actions you describe already are serious violations of state and federal laws. Are you talking about taking action against criminals or about taking rights away from law abiding citizens, and turning them into criminals with the stroke of a pen? Or, do you simply support the personal power politics of Joshua Horwitz and Michael Beard? “22% of guns used in Crime nationally that were traced by the ATF come from multiple handgun sales. 51% of traced Crime guns with obliterated serial numbers come from multiple handgun sales.” If you believe that bit of fiction from CeaseFire, then you should at least consider the reality that if in fact serial numbers had been obliterated, then any trace of provenance is impossible, unless of course you believe in the mythology of ballistic fingerprinting. Just an aside, defacing a weapons serial number also is a serious crime. If you think it is so easy to make multiple gun purchases LEGALLY from a federally licensed dealer without any consequences, then I suggest you try it, either in Pennsylvania, or New Jersey, or New York, or Ohio (a few of the neighboring states) and see what happens. Catch and release law enforcement and the criminals who pass through the legal systems via the tender mercies of deluded judges, are the real problems. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Catch and release law enforcement and the criminals who pass through the legal systems via the tender mercies of deluded judges, are the real problems. 100% right, icebox. Is it more important to eliminate the environments that foster criminality or to punish criminals? LR, the statement by icebox is one of the environments that foster criminality. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Good Morning and thanks to you all for your feedback on this issue. Icebox and Deer I'm with you both all the way on this one... Again...gun laws "are" adheared to by law abiding citizens. They are not and will never be adheared to by criminals. No matter how many gun laws are and will be in place, nothing will stop a criminal who is looking for his next fix or...looking to rape a child or keep him from raping a woman and killing her so he won't be identified. Gun laws will not protect our children, or keep criminals from stealing our children and selling them into 3rd world prostitution rings. Gun laws will not keep the drug cartels from selling drugs and killing those who buy drugs and don't pay up. Ron, of course I've broken laws such as speeding (2 traffic tickets in my lifetime) and no, I don't deem myself to be perfect. And actually quit embarrassed about it and Yes, absolutely I did wrong, and paid for my actions Ron, as it should be...and will say in all honesty, if I murder (take someone's life, or harm another in any way, then I am not safe or a productive member of society, and deserve to go to prision for the rest of my life. Do I speed, I try my darnest not to...and will say, most of the time, no I don't, but if my eyes were afixed to my speed domitor all the time, I couldn't see where I was going.  I'm certain, that the needle goes over the speed limit from time to time Ron. I will say though, I at my age, really dislike speeding. Ron, I've had to stop twice in my lifetime, to avoid hitting a child who ran out in the road, and many times to avoid getting hit by someone who pulled out in front of me, so, thank God for becoming more aware of my speed. Difference is Ron, I would not hold up a store at gun point...rob an old woman with a knife or gun, pistol whip someone for their money, rape a child at gun point...and then kill them...or a woman...rob someone for a fix, kill someone because they owe me money for drugs, I'm the same as you or anyone else in this forum. None of us are perfect, but....we all have standards and wouldn't think of taking another human beings life. One can hardly compare a traffic ticket, to cold blooded murder...and yes, there absolutely "is" a big difference. We're talking apples and oranges here. Ron, curious, are you saying then, that someone who ties their wife to a car, and drags her until she is dead, who is 35 years old, and a repeated offender, can be rehabilitated...???? Or someone who rapes a child, who is a repeated offender, can be rehabilitated and put back on the streets again and again. My next question would be, then do you believe that these repeated offenders will not be able to purchase a gun, because of new gun laws? Believe me, these criminals will in fact gain guns the moment they are left free from jail. They know who to contact, and for the right price, they will have a piece in the hands within hours.... Kevin Felder, 25, (A Felon)accused of firing at the car carrying Casha'e Rivers, 5 years old, because he (thought) it was tailing him??? http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/states/pennsylvania/counties/philadelphia_county/philadelphia/ This guy is a convicted Felon??? Why was he out????? And because he was, a five year old child is gone forever???? I'm interested in knowing how much medication they had him on and how long he was under the care of a physiciatrist while in prision, and why he was left free... These are the questions we have to ask ourselves. How many prisioners went under theropy and were medicated and for how long? and how many of them are repeated offenders, and where did they get their guns from? Fact is, correctional facilites are not working Ron, we're not talking traffic tickets.....One can hardly compare the two... People who cannot blend peacefully into society with respect for the law and lives of others, do not deserve to be any other place then where they can be contained and kept safely away from guns & society. These people are mentally incompetent & unable to perform normally in society. Freedom comes as a priviledge...a right, with respect for others, respect for the lives of others, not to mention, realizing there are grave consequences or should be, for our actions against society. We've been calling our prisons rehabilitation facilites for years now and allowing convicted criminals, felons, out on good behavior, or because simply put, we do not have enough prisions or room in prisions. Why, b/c we think these criminals should have rights...should have TV's, tiled floors, work out rooms, be able to take classes, have the right to obtain a college degree...on our tax dollars. I'm sorry, but I can no longer feel pity for these people? I used to, but when you take a look at the families of all the victims of these criminals, I've come to a point in my life and it needs to be said... (it's not working this way)....we've tried to make bigger & better gun laws, we've gone soft with sympathy for prisioners and set aside the safty of ssociety. And the poor police are going crazy, trying to keep law and order and putting their lives on the line to keep us safe and our children out of harms way. What are we telling them when we put another criminal out on the street that they worked so hard to capture and put away? How many police officers have to be murdered until we stop and listen to them. Can you imagine the frustration of these guys? They are out on the streets, trying to catch these criminals, and when they finally get them, a lenient judge or jury slaps them on the wrist, saying bad boy, and puts them back on the street again...and once on the street again, your now placing the arresting officer in jeprody of a revenge killing. A police officer who is a human being, with a family...trying to do a job for you and me???? Shame on us, for not thinking of these things...shame on us, for putting these guys back on the streets, shame on our judicial system and attorneys for setting them free...cuz the way I see it, we are all responsible for the next murder that occurs out there...and maybe, if we'd look at it that way, we wouldn't look for quick fixes, but remody the problem by going stright to the root of it. How many children need to be raped or stolen, or worse, until we realize, criminals need to be incarcerated? I suppose what I'm asking everyone to do, is to think about that... the next time you hear someone has been murdered on the news...ask how many times this person was arrested...ask yourself, why the jury and judge left him go...and realize, that if that murderer had been encarcerated, maybe that 5 year old little girl would still be alive today or that woman that was raped might not have to live the rest of her life with HIV, and the shame of being assulted, afraid to go out of the house. The next time we hear of a repeated criminal who has violated the life of another, we should think about the victim and ask ourselves, what would we do, if it was our child, our wife, or husband, and how would we feel when we hear, after 5 years in prison, he was left go? Talk to my cousin, a woman who was forced to the floor at gun point, one guy was holding a baseball bat, she said, that scared her even more then the gun, and to this day, she doesn't know why, all she can remember thinking was that he was going to beat her to death with the bat. They robbed the store she was manager of, got away with her purse, with her check book and her street address. The last one was left out of prison, last year...can you imagine, what her life is like? How she fears? And her situation, was minor compared to some very henous crimes. These guys had robbed other places as well. Folks, thanks so much for reading and for taking the time to reply with your comments on this issue. Ron, thanks so much for this opportunity, for challenging me, and for this forum to be able to express my thoughts on this subjet. Thanks to all of you...whew, I need to go take a deep breath now  sorry folks....Sincerely Lee J. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
One can hardly compare a traffic ticket, to cold blooded murder.. LeeJ, you obviously haven't been reading Alley posts for the past couple of years!!  |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
 Morning Michael your kidding, right? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
So, were it not for the fear then Mike, of being captured, prosecuted, and incarcerated.. you would rape, murder, rob, and sell drugs? Who among you wants to live under a system that, were you to be wrongly accused and arrested, favored the prosecution instead of the defendant? Of course, the system we have actually DOES, executively, favor the government, because all of the government's resources can be brought to bear against you -- whereas you only have yourself, and your Constitutional rights. Catch and release. Cute to talk about in fishing terms I suppose -- but do you want to have the opportunity to bail your sons and daughters out of jail when innocent? What about if they're guilty? Are you convinced there is a fair system to treat them as they should be treated? Releasing suspects certainly presents the opportunity for repeat offenses -- but doesn't MAKE a criminal. Is it the fact that a burglar alarm doesn't electrocute the burglar that made him a burglar? How is it, that, sitting in a remote location, having access to no more than what you read in the newspapers you don't trust -- you can say a jury of 12 ordinary citizens doesn't have intimate enough knowledge of the details of a case to make an educated decision about it? How can we sit here and think of every circumstance that may arise now and forever and determine the outcome and punishment for crimes that haven't been committed? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: http://www.homeboy-industries.org//father_gregg.php# |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Why not, Lee? Certainly, there are some similarities. Speed limits are posted, after all, to save lives and property, not to just give the police something to do, and people who willfully break those laws are no less dangerous to society than any other criminal. An automobile in the hands of an irresponsible person is a far more lethal weapon than a Colt 45 in the hands of a responsible one. Beyond the inevitable similarities, however, a comparison of extremes is often a good way to recognize what is important to us and what is trivial. Mike has always made fun of my comparisons because he sees only the differences and refuses to acknowledge the similarities. I think we can only learn from those differences, however, if we also are willing to learn from the similarities. For example, I think this comparison has shown us that you don't really believe people can't be rehabilitated or should be locked away for life. Your second ticket, after all, made you a repeat offender, Lee, but you seem to be saying those lapses were exceptions and don't represent your typical behavior. You paid the price, hopefully learned from it, and moved on with your life. There are a good many crimes in various states that carry a mandatory life sentence with no opportunity for parole. So, obviously, there are people out there who agree with you, Lee. They agree with you that some crimes, like breaking the speed limit, should be punished less aggressively than more heinous crimes. They, like you, draw an arbitrary line through society, essentially saying, "Okay, these criminals can possibly be saved, but these criminals are beyond redemption." All you're really doing, Lee, is trying to redraw the line somewhere else.  |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
~ I believe that there are criminals who can be rehabilitated and those who can not. ~ Those who cannot - commit crimes due to genetics and there is nothing that can change that. ~ Those who can - commit crimes due to their social upbringing, and that is all they know. I believe those individuals can be rehabilitated. ~ The problem is the penal system. It does not promote rehabilitation, but what are the answers? That is the question that no one can answer [pun?]. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: These people are called sociopaths, or pscyopaths with an official diagnosis of Antisosial Personality Disorder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder and comprise about 3% of the male population and 1% female. But they aren't all criminals. They can mimic normal personalities and become high achievers, become CEO's of corporations, politicians, presidents.... because of thier lack of empathy for others the climb to the top is easily facilitated. While there is no known cure for the condition, behavior modification is difficult due to the general lack of understanding of consequenses. In other words -- the prospect of long jail sentences or even the death penalty have no effect in deterring thier behavior. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
So, were it not for the fear then Mike, of being captured, prosecuted, and incarcerated.. you would rape, murder, rob, and sell drugs? Actually, reb, no I wouldn't but I confess that I have not come to complete stops before making a right turn. Not only that, I'll probably do it again. Perhaps, by ron's meaning, that makes me a habitual criminal but I can live with it. Here in Florida we had a seat belt law for years which stated that, if you were seen not wearing a seat belt, you could be stopped. Stopped with a warning but no ticket or fine issued. Since this did not mean much to many people, the state passed a new law that non-compliance carried an automatic fine. Immediately the rates of people wearing seatbelts skyrocketed. Did the threat of punishment mean anything to them? I think you could safely say yes No, it's not rape or murder but breaking the law is breaking the law, right? I remember years ago when blackouts hit the east coast and New York City, common ordinary people did things they would never have considered, especially theft. Store full of people, the lights go out, people grab things. I recall people saying things like, "I don't know what came over me. It (something) was there, no one could see me and I just grabbed it." The fear of being seen or captured or prosecuted was eliminated and they just did it. Does that make them criminals? Yep, sure does, but one can also argue that the baser side of human nature entered into it a little. You don't think that fear of being captured or prosecuted deters criminal activity? Disband police departments and see what happens.Who among you wants to live under a system that, were you to be wrongly accused and arrested, favored the prosecution instead of the defendant? Of course, the system we have actually DOES, executively, favor the government, because all of the government's resources can be brought to bear against you -- whereas you only have yourself, and your Constitutional rights. I certainly agree with that. I do not want to live in a society where one is not innocent until proven guilty. I disagree that the system favors the government, though. Sure they have more resounces...so what? resouces cannot turn lies into truth. As a former police officer I can assure you that the law bends over backwards the majority of the time to favor the rights of the accused, too much so, in many's opinion. I can think of nowhere in the world where accused individuals have more benefits and protections than here. I really don't think Lee's point is to have a legal system of guilty until proven innocent. She is addressing the issue of sentencing AFTER one is found guilty. How is it, that, sitting in a remote location, having access to no more than what you read in the newspapers you don't trust -- you can say a jury of 12 ordinary citizens doesn't have intimate enough knowledge of the details of a case to make an educated decision about it? 12 ordinary making an educated decision? Sure they can but is that good enough? What determines their educated decision? If you look at a list of the "great" or well-known successful lawyers, such as Johnny Cochran(before he died), F. Lee Bailey (before he went senile), Roy Black, the Indian fellow out west..you find one thing in common. They are all great showmen. Guilt or innocence many times depends on who has the best or most flambouyant lawyer. Need I mention O.J.? Personally I disagree with our jury system. You have lawyers who went through 8 years of schooling, a judge who has spent years studying the law and yet the final decision comes down to Sally Homemaker, Joe Six-Pack, Mike Mechanic and nine others who know very little about actual law except for the obvious things we all know. Yes, they try to make reasonable decisions but they are also influenced by their own personal views and the theatrics of the defense attorneys. What do they know about the finer points of the law, which could make a great deal of difference in a case? Should they select 12 random individuals to choose receipientsof Nobel prizes? Of course not but we do it for our legal system to determine guilt and innocence. Personally, I would use the system several European countries use....a panel of judges instead of a jury. Then you have educated, experienced legal scholars,not so easily influenced by lawyer antics, making the decisions. When I am elected President, I will make it so |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"These people are called sociopaths, or pscyopaths with an official diagnosis of Antisosial Personality Disorder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder and comprise about 3% of the male population and 1% female." ~ Every single one of them are diagnosed this way? Prove it. Yet, that doesn't matter. "But they aren't all criminals." ~ I never said they were. "They can mimic normal personalities and become high achievers, become CEO's of corporations, politicians, presidents.... because of thier lack of empathy for others the climb to the top is easily facilitated." ~ They do well, especially in car sales. "While there is no known cure for the condition, behavior modification is difficult due to the general lack of understanding of consequenses." ~ Yes, due to their genetics. "In other words -- the prospect of long jail sentences or even the death penalty have no effect in deterring thier behavior" ~ More importantly, the affect their behavior on others does not deter what they do to others. I don't think of the "long jail sentences" when they commit the crimes they do, just what is in it for me. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Well it should come as a relief to you that you needn't wait for the opportunity to become President and attempt abusing your power (and to the rest of us for not having to consider the prospect  ) in order to have such a panel of judges hearing a case... it just so happens that every case has that opportunity NOW through the appeals process.What I fail to comprehend though is that big 'C' conservatives are supposed to be suspicious of government and more reliant on Sally Homemaker, Joe Sixpack, and Mike Mechanic. This is yet one more example where the coin flips the other way when it is a matter of convenience. I happen to believe more in the efficacy of partnership between Senator Blowhard, Judge Krank, Officer O'Malley, and the forementioned than to favor it one way or another. It is the very fact that our peers are 'ordinary' that makes them the best judges because they can decide whether or not your rolling stop is a true menace to society or merely an individual exercising reasonable judgement based on the presently existing conditions. quote: Really? You want to talk to several thousand wrongly convicted persons about that? quote: substitute 'my rights' for the phrase 'the rights of the accused' and see how far you think the system should bend backwards Mike. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
What I fail to comprehend though is that big 'C' conservatives are supposed to be suspicious of government and more reliant on Sally Homemaker, Joe Sixpack, and Mike Mechanic. This is yet one more example where the coin flips the other way when it is a matter of convenience. LOL....that is probably one of the sillier pieces of reasoning and insults I've seen....a tad unworthy of you, reb It is the very fact that our peers are 'ordinary' that makes them the best judges because they can decide whether or not your rolling stop is a true menace to society or merely an individual exercising reasonable judgement based on the presently existing conditions. Exactly. My rolling stop is illegal, regardless of my judgement based on existing conditions. ...but, officer, I looked and no one was coming.. somehow never appears to be a very good defense. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Really? Anytime a Conservative says that he is for 'small government' he's favoring the ability of Suzie Homemaker to see to herself. If he says 'free market' he's favoring Mike Mechanic's ability to compete If he says 'low taxes' he claims he's favoring Joe Sixpack's trickled down income But, when you say bigger prisons, tighter control over judges, more judges, no juries -- you're saying the opposite. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I fail to follow your reasoning, LR. You make it sound like there is some checklist for all big C conservatives and if one does not follow any entry, then he must be flip-flopping. There is no such checklist, either for conservatives or liberals. Besides, I see no conflict in my reasoning. Conservatives believe that one of the few main obligations of government is the protection of its citizens.That protection would include the best judicial system possible, which would be handled by professionals in that field. It also includes the best penal system possible to protect the law-abiding populace. That has nothing to do with Mike Mechanic's free market or Joes Sixpack's trickle down economics. Actually, iIt offers them a better chance to enjoy those freedoms with less of a chance of being mugged, robbed or murdered by those with no regard for law or rights. What I DON'T understand is this.... It is the very fact that our peers are 'ordinary' that makes them the best judges because they can decide whether or not your rolling stop is a true menace to society or merely an individual exercising reasonable judgement based on the presently existing conditions. So if our 'ordinary' peers decide that turning on a red light is not such a bad thing if no traffic is coming and let me off, that's a good thing? Making their judgements based on their own interpretations and feelings is better than actually upholding the law? There is a very short step between me beating the traffic ticket and O.J. getting away with murder because "After all, blacks have gotten the short end of the stick for years so let's even it up a little". That is the policy you favor? I find that unlikely, even though that is basically what you are advocating with that statement. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Yes it is. It's called Jury Nullification. The Jury is the final check and balance on the government. Even though a law has passed through a legislative body (be it State, Local, or Federal) and signed into law by its' respective executive, the jury in any given case ultimately decides the applicability of that particular law in that particular case. Mike Mechanic can decide if Mike Pest-Controller's rolling stop is equal to a sociopath who blows through every light in town at 110 mph leaving wreckage, injury, and death in his wake. He can decide that the system is hopelessly skewed against somebody, from the legislative level on through to the police, the prosecutor, and the judge who is a former prosecutor, and be the final voice of freedom against tyranny. Mike Mechanic, Nancy Nurse, CEO Sally, all bring their own prejudices and opinions into the court with them -- but mostly they bring complete independence from the system which makes them the invaluable finders of fact. Yes, government institutions are REQUIRED for any nation to have econmic success. Economic success is required for there to be liberty. It's ok Mike. I know what Conservatives mean when they say small government. They mean they don't want poor people to have benefits -- but they want huge military, police, and penal systems. I know all that. I'm just pulling the curtain back so everybody can take a peek. You'd have a much smaller government though if you actually addressed the root causes of most crime and had a much more productive populace than you would by putting it in jail. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
They mean they don't want poor people to have benefits -- but they want huge military, police, and penal systems. Aha...the standard liberal line, perfected by the Kennedys, Kerrys and other champions of the poor. I leave you with the fantasy.... |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
but mostly they bring complete independence from the system which makes them the invaluable finders of fact. What happened with this thought? Really? You want to talk to several thousand wrongly convicted persons about that? Perhaps our invaluable finders of fact could use a little tweaking?  |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Hate to break it to you Mike but that's not a pejorative. Without the New Deal we'd had no WPA, no infrastucture, full blown communist revolution in the country while Hitler was marching across Europe. What do you think the world would be like today? You want to pay for some kids education, food, housing, and help him find some work before he tries to rob the corner store and accidentaly kills the proprietor while doing so? Or, after? quote: No. Without them there would be thousands and thousands more innocent convicted. Prosecutors, Police, and Judges could herd suspects through the system without any check on rules of evidence or habeus corpus. It would be merely you and whatever counsel you can afford vs. the entire government. Juries are the ultimate rule 'by the people'. Without them the only two people in the courtroom who understand life not on the government payroll and outside the legal system are you and your lawyer. It seems Conservatives are rarely happy with the decisions of that one panel of judges, lets see, what's it called again? Oh, yeah... the Supreme Court... judicial activism and the like. quote: [This message has been edited by Local Rebel (10-02-2006 06:31 AM).] |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
I believe our legal system has descended to nihilism (total rejection of established laws & institutions, absolute destructiveness toward the world at large) Ron, thank you for your views and can sincerely understand your reasoning…believe you are valid in your views to a degree, but believe now, after hearing your explanation, an automobile in the hands of an irresponsible person IS a lethal weapon, but not more lethal then a gun, and my reason for stating this is there are far more people murdered with guns, knives, beatings, then there are people killed by cars. Doesn’t make is less meaningful, or less of a crime, mind you…but crime is on the upswing. http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/a/automobile_accidents_injury/deaths.htm Crime in the United States accounts for more deaths, injuries then Automobile Accidents and Natural Disasters combined. http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm How many people actually get in their cars & think, today I’m going to try and hit someone, rape someone, or rob a convenience store with my car? (I’m also including drunken drivers)… (I call it drunk driving, because I don’t believe people who drink & drive merit an intellectual word as intoxicated or under the influence). Yes, a drunken driver is an accident waiting to happen, but is it premeditated? No. But, when you pick up a gun, you’ve already predetermined your going to take control of the situation, even if it means shooting someone. (And yes, I’m certain there are a small percentage of people who believe “they’re not really going to shoot anyone”, just use the gun to control the situation) but DO end up shooting someone. And Reb, totally understand where your coming from as well….and thank you for your feedback. It would be nice if this rehabilitation worked 100%, but they don’t. A person has to want to change, in order to make a difference and that IS the difference. I’m happy to hear that some can be rehabilited…as one life saved, affects an entire community…but what about those who won’t be rehabilitated…? Those who are set in their ways and desire NOT to change? Far more then those who can and will change. And what about their victims, and the families of those victims…should we sweep their pain under the table and allow their murderers out to strike again, simply because we feel sorry for them? It would be a perfect world if everyone got along and there was no crime at all….but there is crime, and we’ve been trying things differently since the Movie Cool Hand Luke, which gained sympathy for prisoners…. And I’m all for trying, but it isn’t working….and when crime is on an upswing, and a thing isn’t working, then it’s time to make a change. I believe the point Mike and I are trying to make (and correct me if I’m wrong Mike) but we both realize a moral conviction…we both practice a respect for the law…it isn’t all about fear of being caught, but about respect for the law, and the lives and property of others. We both understand what severe consequences our actions of crime could have on the lives of others. There are a lot more people in the world today who feel, they deserve something for nothing and unfortunately, I believe society holds (some) responsibility for this. We’ve become to lenient in our laws…which dictates to would be criminals, it’s ok to commit a crime, cuz the consequences are going to be lenient. Same as welfare…everyone at one time in their lives needs help, but to actually encourage people to live on welfare for the rest of their lives breeds’ laziness, a disregard for any responsibility to society as a working member….not to mention, welfare breeds welfare. We are making people lazy; we are allowing criminals to get off easy and encouraging crime. Some lines have to be drawn when it comes to breaking the law…there are some crimes that are certainly more heinous and brutal then others, which should merit different penalties, but, most certainly there should be penalties. To me, if a person commits murder, once, twice, and three times, then they are not a productive member of society and need to be placed somewhere, where they can never harm another person. If a child molester is a repeated offender, then they don’t deserve to be a member of society. What we are doing, is allowing these people to be free again and again, and they ruin more lives…and this to me, is a result of society feeling more empathy for the criminal then for the families of those people who are yet to be assaulted or murdered by criminals YOU say have rights. We’ve been trying it your way for years…and the percentage of rehabilitation is very low. http://www.whatisscientology.org/html/part10/chp31/pg0518.html Again, I refer to my son’s testimony on this because he is a police officer. I suggest Ron, and Reb…considering your comments in all due respect to be in good taste and judgment, you both talk to police officers, ask if you can go along on a ride with them…and write a study of your finds, non-biased of course. And, I believe you both would…but I also believe, your train of thought is not working. I want to see change, I want to see a safer place for our children… we shouldn’t have to worry about on line predators…or friends of the family or clergy, taking advantage of our children’s innocence and trust and raping them. And if it takes stricter laws for people to get a grip and stop violating another human being, then so be it. Let’s pretend your out in the wild…and some predator, who feeds on human flesh, oh lets say a cougar, attacks you? What are you going to do, lie down and let him eat you cuz you feel sorry for him cuz he’s a little hungry? Same scenario with criminals today, predators who would feed off the innocence of others, or the success of others, who believe they have a right to take whatever it is they want. Well they don’t. No one does. And until we once again, take hold of our judicial system, encouraging people to be more law abiding by stricter laws, longer sentences…crime will be on the upswing. When you excuse bad behavior, you encourage it. And Ron, in some cases, lines HAVE to be drawn…, to protect the whole of humanity against those who would harm humanity, sorry, but that is reality. And as far as speeding, I wish there were many more police officers to go around. Many more speed traps, with really outrageously high fines…..of which a percentage of those fines could go towards the city hiring more police officers. One of the questions a candidate testing for a police officer career is this… If your on a speed trap, and three speeders come down the road…the first, being a clergy, the second, the mayor, and the third, a kid….who are you going to stop and ticket? Correct Answer: The very first driver no matter who he/she is, b/c the next two drivers will automatically slow down. It’s a proven fact. Ron/Reb…again, my son is a police officer, and maybe you guys need to see what he sees…maybe all those who are for liberal laws and penalties, should do mandatory drive alongs…just to experience, what is really going on out there? I don’t expect you to come completely over to my side of the fence, but simply to consider the lives of the victims. It’s not about revenge…it’s about respect for the law, respect for life, and realizing the whole of lives affected (the hurt, the fear/depression, the loss, the effects that affect victims all because one person thought he/she had a right to break the law)? |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Check your numbers again, Lee. According to your own references (there are more current ones on the 'Net), there were 42,443 automobile deaths in 2001 versus 16,037 murders. I make that at more than twice as many fatalities from automobiles than from murder. Way more. quote: I disagree. Drinking alcohol is premeditated. Getting behind the wheel of a car is premeditated. The result of combining those two is never going to be an accident. quote: Of course rehabilitation doesn't work 100 percent of the time, Lee. But neither does it fail 100 percent of the time, either, which is exactly what you're contending. You don't want to give anyone a second chance at life because the success rate doesn't meet your standards? quote: Absolutely. And you are perfectly free to argue that you should be the one to decide where those lines are drawn, Lee. My earlier point was simply a recognition that was what you are doing. quote: And that is precisely what makes the testimony biased, Lee. You don't ask a PFC sitting in a trench how the war should be run, after all, just as you can't ask a widow to hand down the sentence for her husband's killer. In all instances, they know too much of one side of the story and can't be expected to remain impartial. Their goals, very understandably I think, won't necessarily coincide with the goals of society. quote: I agree completely, Lee. But that has absolutely nothing to do with harsher sentences or the assumption that no one can be rehabilitated. Here's an excerpt, Lee, from your own references: quote: That same year, Lee, in 2000, there were 85 people executed in the state of Texas. Killed. Dead. Do you really think you can come up with a harsher sentence than that? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
er, can I count being married to my ex-wife, Ron?  |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Ron, Hello Well, you caught me...I meant to say all crime combined, not just murders….sorry, Guess I became overly focused….or something? And your right, way more then murders…but look at overall crime and take a total. That is what I should have written, so on that one, I stand corrected. Yes, exactly my point on rehabilitation…it doesn’t work 100% but there are far less rehabs then repeated offenders….far less….statistics show it doesn’t work, especially with older criminals…I believe there are a few younger kids that can be rehabbed…but on the average, rehab doesn’t work, it is a very small percentage. I didn’t say I should be the one to decide and I’m not saying I should be the one…certainly there should be different levels of punishment according to the severity of the crime. My son’s testimony surely and clearly does not make the testimony biased…he works in the field for goodness sakes, that is a whole lot different then asking a widow to sentence her husband’s killer… Ron, he is closer to the situation then we’ll ever be. He is constantly arresting repeated offenders…and our judicial system lets them go…over and over again…some of which are kids…and by the time they are 28 – 55, do you believe they are going to be rehabilitated? Respecting the law, respect for life, and realizing the whole of all lives affected by crime certainly does have to do with this thread and harsher sentences and my concept of believing if we had stricter laws, harsher sentences, less people would be affected by crime. No, I cannot come up with a harsher sentence then 85 people going to the electric chair, and just in case you’re interested, I don’t really know where I stand on that type of punishment, but what I do know is this… If there were stricter punishments for crime, and a lot more jails build to house criminals…there would be less crime, more people safer. We’ve been trying it your way for years now, and it just isn’t working….crime fighting is going to take new strategies….and should be a big issue this coming election. I believe a big contributor towards crime is role models for kids today. This comment includes all crime. Crime seems to be sensationalized….child porn, rape, physical fighting, shooting, etc. Kids act out this same scenario…kids also know when they are not loved, and will act out, in anger, resulting in crime, perhaps even for attention, so rehabilitating parents on how to be parents needs to be a big practice as well. If we don’t do something soon, you’re going to be seeing much more of this… http://CNN.com And it isn’t about stronger gun laws… Again…criminals will always get guns…bigger and better then the police force has… It’s law abiding citizens who will adhere to gun laws… But gun laws will not stop crime…putting criminals away will…common sense tells ya, when you get sick you treat it, not look for a quick fix…treating a disease takes time and hard work…and sometimes difficult decisions which may not always seem fair to some, but if something isn’t working you certainly have to try something different.…it is because of lenient laws that crime is on the upswing…it is because people feel more sympathy for the criminals then the victims, that people are being violated. Go look at all the criminals in jail…go talk to them, and see if you still feel the same way…they don’t call them hard core criminals for nothing. And I do understand what your trying to say, but I don’t agree with you…and you don’t have to agree with me…but, one thing for certain…your way is not working Ron….Crime is on the rise. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Sorry, Mike, but I'm told self-inflicted pain doesn't qualify as punishment. They, uh, call that something else. Besides, you (and I) managed to escape ... quote: So, too, is the widow, Lee. And, of course, the police are no closer to the situation than are the criminals. You want to ask their opinions, too? There's such a thing as being too close. It's called bias. quote: You mean like in Texas? I just think you're looking for simple solutions to complex problems, Lee. It would be wonderful if we could erase crime by passing a few laws, but I think the problems in society run a little more deeply than that. A criminal doesn't run a cost/benefit analysis before picking up a pistol, so increasing the cost has never been an effective deterrent. And people who feel they have little to lose aren't easily frightened. I believe actions carry consequences and criminals should be treated like criminals. I do not believe all criminals should be treated the same. The distinction may be subtle, but it's nonetheless an important one. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Bias...? Or knowledgable? Not to mention, being shot at, spit at, kicked...they're out there protecting you and your families...it's their job...then you could say that a fireman would be biased for putting the fire out on your home? What could be more realistic then someone who works closely with the criminals...then I could say anyone who tries to rehabilitate them is also biased.... why aren't we out there concerning ourselves with the victims, giving them free rehabilatation...counseling...? Police know much more then most of us do, as a matter of fact, presently right there where you live, there is probably so much that goes on that never reaches the papers....or that you hear about...but it's going on... exactly, Ron, and my point....a criminal doesn't run a cost/benefit analysis before picking up a pistol, so increasing the cost has never been an effective deterrent. And people who feel they have little to lose aren't easily frightened. Your absolutely right, and are a menace to society. Some are, Ron, some are not...but fact of the matter is, regardless if they are or are not...they are a menace to society and should not be allowed back out into society, if they are repeated offenders of murder, rape, or using a weapon with intent, or sexual offenders. It is because of the way you and many others believe, that crime is on the upswing, more then ever....and punishment is effective if we get them off the streets.... If they are not on the streets, and locked away...lets say until they are deemed rehabilitaded, who is going to commit the crimes? You? Me? Your mother, brother, sister? Crime shouldn't be rewarded and to my way of thinking your way of thinking is rewarding the criminal. If I'm wrong, tell me why and also tell me what fixes you would impliment to help reduce the problem. Cuz it's not working now. Again...biased or not (which to me is simply an answer to prove your point)...my son is constantly arresting repeated offenders...and you know something, even if he is out there biased or not, I'm certainly glad I've gotten the education from him on crime that I've received...and again say, do a ride along sometime, talk to police officers, perhaps they can assure you how bad crime really is, and what will help to protect law abiding citizens of this country. I don't believe the problem can be fixed 100%, but I do know when I was young, laws were much more strick, there was less crime, less gangs, less murders...we didn't have to lock our doors or cars then...crime was controlled... I believe criminals to be mentally incompitent, to be an unproductive menace to society. If your so apt to believe they are not, then perhaps you should take up a room at your local penetry for about a week and come back and tell me the same thing. I don't get it, Ron, seriously, why there are people out there who tend to feel more empathy for the prisioner then for the victims and their families? It used to be considered abnormal to want to hurt another person, take away they're lives...their innocence. Let me put this another way? Have you ever had people break in and rob your home while you were away. Have you ever felt the complete loss, the fear, the what if's the total feeling of violation...and that's simply a robbery...now consider someone who enters your home while your there, with a gun, and kills you or your family. Or worse, rapes your wife in front of you and your children. How can you feel sympathy for that criminal? Tell you what, for all those people who believe criminals should be felt sorry for, why don't you put a sign on your home, All Criminals Welcome Here...? Just kidding You've made some very good points, and some not very good points...and thank you for the conversation...and your point of view. I know we're never going to solve the problem 100%, but as suggested before, we've got to change, cuz it's not working this way. And your absolutely right Ron, crime goes much deeper then the act...but yanno, we've all experienced hardships, hard lives...does that make it right for us to go out and take what we want at gun point, or molest a 13 year old child or younger, or steal children and sell them for child prostitution? And would we? I think not...why wouldn't we. Why wouldn't you commit a crime like that Ron? Why wouldn't you murder someone? Have you ever talked with a police officer on this subject just to gain some knowledge and perspective on the issue? I really think, feel and believe, if laws were strict, if our judicial system were strick...criminals wouldn't be as protected, criminals would have to serve longer sentences, our society would be better for it...crime would not be totally abolished from society, but crime statistics would certainly decline. Where's John Wayne when you need em? Many thanks for listening, but most of all for contributing. [This message has been edited by LeeJ (10-03-2006 09:04 AM).] |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: I'm sorry to say Lee, you are a far cry from being there yet. But keep working on it. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Once again, Lee -- you mean like Texas? |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
*Laughing* ..."like Texas." You mean the place were the Court systems are so backed up with criminal cases, they can't get them all processed? I have absolutely no answers to this issue. Crime is certainly growing by leaps and bounds here in Texas. Do tougher laws stop it? Apparently not. LeeJ, this has been an interesting thread to watch and I certainly sympathize. Your comment about what about helping victims of crime caught my attention. That is something that I feel real strongly about, too. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Reb Respectfully I'll say, I do understand where your coming from…what I don’t understand is how members of a community can have more empathy for criminals the victims of crime. I’m trying to understand your point of view, and you’ve brought some very good points to the table… You say…”you are a far cry from being there yet…but keep working on it”? Reb, I have every intention to remain steadfast to my view points on this….I believe it is admirable that you have faith in rehabilitation, and if you can save one person from a life of crime, then you’ve done a good thing…but my question is, what about rehabilitating the older criminals? Your talking kids…I’m talking hard core criminals and repeated offenders. I feel badly for anyone who is wrongfully accused of any crime they didn’t commit. And one person wrongfully accused is one to many…but it’s got to work both ways…when a person is sexually abused, or one person murdered for a $10.00 bill, well, that to me, is also one person to many. You’ve got to see both points of view, right, what about the victims? By the way, what are the statistics on wrongfully accused & convicted, compared to the criminals walking around free out there who are in fact, repeated offenders? You’ve got criminals killing kids, raping kids…selling drugs to kids, kids shooting kids…law enforcement fighting sexually violent predators, fraud, correctional institution crime and tax crimes, fighting serious felony offenses, child victimization, murderers, cop killers, thefts…school shootings, gang murders, sex crimes, and if you have a man who apologizes for rape, says it was his first time…people feel sorry for him….and now, even a congressman who is a child predator…????? What have lenient laws accomplished? Nothing….what has happened here is encouraged more crime….literally making fools out of the victims…slapped them in the face…and tells them and us, it doesn’t pay to be a law abiding citizens. It is a decline of respect, for the safety of our communities…. Corruption is most certainly on the upswing…criminal behavior is fed by leniency…crime breeds more crime and crime has been rising and rising since we’ve taken this liberal stance…and liberal way of thinking. Ron…I’m wondering, why you haven’t answered any of my questions? In answer to your question, “You mean like Texas” I’d like to know what crimes those men committed before I answer…if they were criminals like Charles Manson…for me, that’s a tough call…I don’t know how I feel about that and what is right to do in a case like that…I’m on the fence, but state…if it is a cold blooded killer like Manson, then I tend to lean towards the death penalty or at least, life in prison, where they can no longer hurt anyone. We are given life, we are expected to be productive members of a community, leaving this place a little better then when we came here…we are supposed to be law abiding citizens…and if we break that law, and we should expect punishment… If we take a life…we then, should have no rights…other then to remain behind bars contained and away from society for the rest of our days…. Statistics show, that the percentage of rehabilitating sexual predators is very slim…. And one child violated by any adult, is one child ruined, their innocence taken away from them by an adult who knows better...or should know better? Children look to adults to keep them safe....we have a responsiblity to them to do just that. Why is it, you have never sexually violated a child…Ron, or murdered someone, why is it you have never robbed a convenience store....???? Or broke into a home and robbed them of their identity...life's savings? If I were a Catholic, I would not walk into a Catholic Church again, until those men of the cloth, would be teachers of God’s word, men we trusted, and taught our children to trust…who violated that trust and disgustingly took advantage of all those little kids…men who claimed to be productive members of society…men whom we told are children were to be respected…and yet, by walking back in those churches we are saying…Hey, that’s ok. If a priest were convicted of sexual abuse…they do not deserve to be a member of society…and we as law abiding citizens have a duty to protect our society, our children and say, This is not ok…we want these men prosecuted and put away if they are found guilty. And until that is done, we will not walk back into your church. By not standing by the law and what is right, we to, become criminals….we are saying, it’s ok to protect criminals and sexual offenders. Until the public stands up for what is right and wrong...how can we expect our country to function. Each one of us is responsible to our community to protect it. If we want to be working members of society, we must make some really hard decisions sometimes to make our laws work. We’ve become a society that feels sympathy for the criminals…and by doing so, our laws have been depleting for years…and with the depletion of laws, comes a depletion of society...when all becomes chaotic & corrupt. We’ve all been seeing it for years, it’s a different world, where society excuses the wrong doings of others. When was the last time you saw a white collared CEO, or Director fired from they’re job because they are doing a BAD job? Today, we ask them to hand in their resignation, and give them a nice big pay check to leave...how many corrupt leaders are fired? Who do we have for role models? What member of society, actually stands there and states...shame on you, this is wrong behavior and shun criminals....what members of society, run to the side of the victim, making certain, their violator serves a tough and just sentence for his/her crime? There is no longer feelings of embarrassment for wrong doings…shame, except when they're caught in the act. There are excuses and we say, oh, well, they had a bad life…and that excuses the criminals behavior…which in turns sends a message to society that it’s ok to do break the law? It’s not ok…and until you & me, become a victim ourselves…or loose a family member to a crime, or have your home robbed while your sleeping, in what you feel is your safe place…or your son or daughter sexually abused…or you yourself raped…beat up, or even worse, murdered…. Everyone wants police officers to protect them, and our laws to protect us…and yet, what message are we sending to our law enforcement officers & officials. But, whose the first person we call and expect to protect us, when we're being violated? We as citizens of the United States have a crucial role in fighting crime…we have a responsibility to the victims of crime…we have a responsibility to raise child support and victim support…we have a responsibility to educate ourselves more on this subject so we can effectively assert a growing concern for felony offenses…convictions and sentences…we have a responsibility to talk to police officers…and our law enforcement community so we understand fully, the crucial results, realizing, the responsibility we have to one another…and remember, what effects one, affects our entire community. Reb, what your doing is a good thing, I just wish the victims of crime were given the same respect, if not more. They deserve it, they didn't break any law...they were victims...violated, raped, robbed, embarrassed, their entire being depleated. Now they live in fear...and mixed emotions about just how safe they really are...why aren't we trying to fix that? Iliana: Many thanks...tougher laws in my opinion, doesn't mean the death sentence, it means getting repeated offenders off the streets longer....maybe even for life, depending on their crime...setting examples probably won't deter each and every law breaker, but...it certainly will help. What is wrong with fearing a consequence for our actions... I'm afraid Iliana, we haven't seen tough laws for quit a lot of years... I know for a fact, there are many out there driving without drivers licenses, insurance, and cannot even read English...and our laws prohibit any police officer asking if these people are American Citizens. So, as long as we as American's continue to support double standards, and breaking the law, crime will rise...as there will be no sense of respect for the law...anything goes, yanno? |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: It's not an either/or situation, Lee. Or, at least it shouldn't be for those uninterested in retribution. The next time you decide to drive too fast you might find yourself unable to stop in time when a twelve-year-old veers her bike into the road. I can say, without qualification or hesitation, I will feel just as sorry for you and I will for the child. I don't have to hate one in order to love the other. And perhaps more to the point, I don't have to promote hate under a guise of promoting love. quote: quote: No, it doesn't help, Lee. And if you educated yourself more on the subject you'd already know that. I wasn't citing Texas figures to find out how you feel about the death penalty, Lee. It was, rather, an example of harsh penalties that have utterly failed to deter crime. I doubt there is any state, and probably not too many countries, that is harsher on criminals than is Texas. To what effect? Read the numbers again, Lee. Texas is in the top half for virtually every crime statistic available. They kill people, for God's sake, taking one or two lives every week for more than two decades, and yet they still haven't scared their citizens into abandoning murder as a solution? Sorry, but no, setting examples does not help deter crime. It just makes people like you feel good that you're doing something useful. You're imagining a cause and effect that has never been established, in hopes of finding a simple solution to a problem that is more daunting than anything quantum physics has to offer. Indeed, I think even seeing it as "a" problem is probably an illusion. When you lump all crimes, all criminals, all victims, all consequences and end results, into a single thread the only possible result is a quagmire of confusion. We're talking about people, Lee. People ain't simple. I don't pretend to have the answers (though I certainly have a few opinions). All I can really say with any degree of certainty is that all the easy solutions have already been tried and found wanting. It doesn't make sense to keep coming back to them in hopes they'll perhaps work better in Pennsylvania than they have in Texas. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Hey Ron Morning Geeze, I'm not trying to promote hate, or asking you to do so, more so promote awareness about crime, there must be consequences for actions no? When we raise our children we scold them for wrong doings, do we not? And I thank you for the kind thoughts about your senerio for me driving to fast and me hitting a child...but if I do, and it happens, I've broken the law, and I should by all means I should be punished. Didn't that used to be called involentary manslaughter? I'm not sure. Yes, it would be devistating, horrible and the guilt of taking someone's life would be costly...but are you saying I shouldn't be punished by law for such? For breaking the law? And I don't feel good about doing something useful Ron, I feel obligated to a responsiblity to "try" and make our home a safer place to live... Setting example is only part of a solution and does help deter crime, even if you deter one person from picking up a gun and killing someone, then you've helped. And by setting examples, you instil a respect for the law. People must fear breaking the law...people must understand it's not ok to do so.... I don't have all the answers either, but I do know, my son's life is in the hands of our communities... And by the way, I'm wondering if any one knows how many police officers are killed each year, by speeders, while they have stopped to help an accident, or have stopped a car on suspition or for speeding? I'm hoping everyone keeps that in mind, next time we tend to put the petal to the metal. Thanks Ron...for your input... greatly appreciate |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Yes, you should be punished for breaking the law, Lee. No, you shouldn't be crucified as an example to everyone else behind a steering wheel. Because in spite of what you keep insisting, it doesn't work. It hasn't worked in Texas, it won't work in Pennsylvania, and sadly, it doesn't seem to keep people from going that extra ten or twenty miles per hour, either. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Hey Ron Good Morning I beg to differ and heres why... When we were younger, laws were strict, parents were strict, if we were repromanded by the teachers, our parents backed the teachers... Then, we didn't have to lock our doors or take our keys out of the car...we feared getting into trouble...and you certainly didn't hear about the multiple violent crimes you hear about now, and so close to home for all of us. Yes, there were gangs, yes, there was crime, but no, crime surely wasn't as rampid as now. We feared and respected the police...we would have never thought to spit on them....communities were friendlier, and if another parent in the community yelled at a kid, that kids parents were behind that neighbor all the way. Everything was strict...children were raised to respect the property of others, and if they drove through communities with their radios blarring, didn't take long for our parents to find out and boy did we get it. We were taught that crime was against the law...then, laws were different, and if someone broke the law, we all knew there were consequences for breaking that law. Today, anything goes, today, the laws are bent by attorneys, political figures, immigration...today, it's ok to break the law, and when people around that person breaking the law see another person doing so, they keep quiet about it? Its a different world Ron, all the way around...there are fewer people who respect the law...and bend the laws to suit their needs. When laws were strickt, it was different...people didn't play games with the police...more people obeyed speed laws...the property of others, and the lives of others. And today, with all the pornogrophy and movies with sexual content, kids want to experiment, b/c those movies and internet sites send a message that it's ok to act out. Its ok to have sex be a goal to success.... then there is the violence, sends the same message. Different world, different views...and it seems people today are afraid to stand up and say, yanno, I was wrong...instead, excuses are made for wrong doing. It worked back then Ron, it did. Lest we forget, Texas is one state that all the immigrants are flocking to. Some of them are great people, some are hard core criminals... I disagree...man by nature, needs laws to govern him by...and if laws become lienant, then all else become chaotic. I disagree, it does work and it did work once...upon a time, we certainly then, did not have the amount of crime that exists today... Another point is, unless parents once again become concerned with discipline and teaching their kids respect, that is another formula for crime. Just my opinion... |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I don't think the laws were any more strict fifty years ago than they are today, Lee, but even if I gave you that point . . . if you honestly believe that's the only thing that's changed, you're living in a fantasy. Sorry, but you're going to have to dig a bit deeper to establish cause and effect than simple temporal adjacency, I'm afraid. When you and I were younger we were also subject to polio vaccines -- maybe THAT is why we didn't lock our doors? (To be honest, in my neighborhood growing up, you locked the doors, drew the shades, and still slept with a baseball bat close at hand. City life then wasn't greatly different than city life now. Maybe you just need to move to a small, rural community, Lee.) |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
hehe, maybe your right... the community I lived in was awesome, safe, and rural. Farm town, yanno... we were lucky kids...very luckythanks Ron |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I don't think the laws were any more strict fifty years ago than they are today Now there is an amazing statement. Not only were the laws more strict, their interpretations were clearer and PARENTS were more strict. Believe it or not, in my high school I never saw or even heard of anyone smoking weed. Any disrespect to a teacher got you sent home immediately. The pledge of allegiance was recited and no one complained about the Under God part. No one minded where Christmas decorations were placed and carols were sung for the Christmas play. If you broke the law you really felt like you would be punished. No, I'm not looking at the past through rose-colored glasses or chanting the old mantra "things were better in my day". That's just the way it was. People didn't run to lawyers every chance they got and more people spent time doing for themselves than expecting handouts from the government. Policemen were respected, as was the president, no matter which party he belonged to. Maybe laws were not stricter but laws were more respected and followed and morality was on a higher level. Baseball players didn't have agents, either, and their lawyers didn't show up for contract talks. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: You should have started with your conclusion, Mike. Attitudes were, indeed, different forty or fifty years ago. No argument. My point all along has been that you're not going to roll back the clock by trying to treat the symptoms. When we nostalgically opine that laws were more respected in the past perhaps we should also be reminded that respect is something that is earned, not forced? So what has changed? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
LOL! I'm not sure Passions has enough bandwidth to hold my answer to that one but I'll get back to ya |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: And the coloreds didn't complain about sitting in the back of the bus and women knew their place was in the home, barefoot and pregnant. And gay still meant happy.  No... no one is looking through rose colored glasses at all! |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
quote: Hey Mike, we went to the same school!!!! You Never told me you lived in PA!!!!  So good to know, I'm not alone! Whewww!!! Nope, no rose colored glasses Reb...it's how things were quote: No one is forcing respect on anyone, it's about something that has been lost...I'm shocked it's still in the dictionary? Trying to treat the symptoms Ron are quick fixes...it wouldn't take a quick fix to correct what we've done to this country in the last 30 - 40 years...When money becomes a reason for decissions, and it has...attorneys are the ones to come out on top... When resect for oneself is lost, respect for anyone or anything else is lost...and man, we've lost words like respect, consideration for others, lack of enthusiasum for responsiblity not to oneself but to others. Heck, how can anyone, stand in a public place and hold a very very personal conversation on their cell phone about their boyfriend, or a family member, when others are trying to unwind from the stress of the day?????? And that is perfectaly acceptable...what ever happened to consideration for others? We've lost a concept of understanding that all our decissions, actions, words... do not just effect us, but an entire community...and it seems when money is involved in making decissions, we'll folks there goes the neighborhood  Has anyone looked at daytime TV lately? Frankly it sucks, and what programs stay on TV dictates not only the mentality of Americans, but also they're intellectual level. I mean, Jerry Springer and Soap Operas? Why is everyone so interested in Gossip...sheshhh, who cares what Jalo is doing, or dating? Don't we have anything better to do then to concern ourselves with such garbage? Children are taught in schools that if they're spanked, that is grounds for them to call the police...there is no discipline anymore???? I know parents whose children have outright told them, "I can do anything I want to do, and if you spank me, I'll call the cops and cry abuse"?????? I would really have liked to have seen what would have happened to me, if I'd have said that???? When we favor and/or permit freedom of action regarding laws, we advocate crime and we are all to blame for the laws changing...I really don't care how unfair we think they are, laws were scribed for a reason...you need laws to sustain and control...and if you don't respect laws then all else becomes chaotic. I hate to break it to you, kids, but since we were young...laws have been bent, and bent again, and again....if this were not true, crime in America, would not be as it is today. The U.S. has the highest per capita prison rate in the world with 715 people in prision per 100,000 of our population. Recidivism (ex prisioners returning to prison after commintting more crimes) is as high as 80% in some areas. The annual cost of crime alone exceeds over $128 billion dollars. America incarcerates more people at higher rate than any other country in the world. In the decade from 1994 - 2004, U.S. prison population expanded by more than half a million people. Daily count in U.S. prisons have surpassed 2.2 million. Over a year, more than 13.5 million people spend time in jail or in prison. 95% eventually return to their communities. 95%???? So Reb, there ya go...but is it working? And, they're are so many people in prison, there isn't enough room...so they release them.... we've become a catch and release system hehe what? We're not fishing? Ohhhhh... Between 1995 and 2000, the growth rate of prisoners housed in high-security segregation increased 40%, far higher than the growth rate of the overall prison population. Something is wrong here, and yes, if it's not working this way, we can certainly go back to the way it was.... I'm all for trying to rehabilitate child criminals...I think it's a good thing Reb...but, in the same, those kids need to be under supervision & understand, if they break the law and screw up again, next time, there may not be an out for them....or someone who is willing to invest time, love, patience and understanding for them, to give them opportunity and a chance at a normal life. Sometimes, tough love can be very effective....not all the time, mind you, but sometimes. We can start by education and promoting respect for the law and law enforcement....that has to be from the parents. Parents today want baby sitters for their kids, cuz everyone wants the 400,000 home with accessories...and so, both parents must work. Whose raising the kids...people who don't really become nurturing and caring towards our kids as individuals...they to, are simply doing their jobs. I work with corporate woman who are so concerned about clothing trends & makeup, their hair, the prestige of a great expensive home with a pool in the back yard...then what kind of person they are inside, or what kind of leaders they are...or, even more, what kind of parents they are, and what they're kids are learning in day care. And they travel??????? We are not creating productivity within our communities...within our children... Kids are being sexually abused, shot, and I find it absurd, that people aren't livid, they don't protest about this, shouting out at the top of their lungs.....we want change. Why isn't there more security in our schools? How does an unknown man walk right thru the front door with a shotgun? Oh, I get it, since teachers picketed and got their raise, there was no money left in the kitty for security. Teachers should be ashamed, they make how much for how many months work? Severance pay, full paid medical benefits year round....and ya know, everytime they go on strick right after school starts, well, they should be ashamed. I mean really. Years ago, teachers didn't have that attitude. Our communities should be outraged!!!! Every single one of us should be embarrassed and angry each time we hear on TV that another human being has been violated?????? We should be taking these crimes VERY personal, as if they have happend to us, to our children, to some one who lives next door. Unless you've been a victim, you have no idea of the suffering, fear, anxiety, shame, personal stagnation...not to mention the effects on that person, who might possibly grow up to be the same type of persons. Look at what just happened in Lancaster. We are so inflated with ourselves, we refuse to see what is really going on. We turn our heads and pretend it didn't happen. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say, "I couldn't watch it...I turned it off, I don't watch the news" Why???? Do we actually Think by not getting involved, pretending it didn't happen, or it won't happen to us, that it's going to go away or get better???? We are a country asleep....and we should be ashamed of ourselves every time another person is victimized. I'm going to say again....WE as a community, have the responsiblity to PROTECT our children...make our communities safer places to live... I see over and over again...special interest groups who buy politicans....and oft times think, If they would only take all that time, energy and know how to do something really serious for this country and attack crime...or corruption. What I'm saying is this...all the time and money people have put into smoking bans....absolutely amazing. Sure, it's great to go into a place and have it smoke free, but my God, what about our more serious issues? Smoking bans, are being passed b/c it's a political season...and politicans are jumping on the band wagon to appease....b/c taking an issue like crime under wing is a whole different can of beans...they would arouse way to many corrupt people...and so smoking bans seems to be a way of appeasing. I'm not against smoking bans...I just really and honestly believe, it is not time and money well spent. But that's another thread...I'm simply using it as an example. I shake my head in disgust sometimes....when I hear people say..."Oh, it was so horrible, I couldn't watch it" Well, that attitude is exactly what is causing more and more crime. Have any threads been started in here concerning Foley????? This man is under investigation for relationships with TEENS...CHILDREN????? Does this disgust anyone???? Are those same special interest groups hounding our government to get these people out of office. Is it to much to expect law abiding moral leaders....and frankly, I don't really care if he's democrate or republican, what I care about is...that this man, as an individual has broken the law....and if you break the law...there should be consequences according to the severity of the crime. That is how you control crime...by abiding by the laws. I don't care who you are, the pope, the President of the U.S., an illegal immigrant...a politician...if you break the laws which are on the books, then you don't deserve to have the same rights that law abiding citizens have. If you abuse a child...by God, you should be put away for good....where you will never be able to touch another child. If you murder someone, in cold blood, with a weapon, with intent to kill...you deserve to be put away for good! Until we realize, that these people are not productive to society, who harbor no respect for the law of life...or themselves....who harbor no feelings of guilt or fear for their actions.... we will continue to grow criminals who will continue to violate us. Citizens of the United States have to wake up...or else, these law breaking people...will continue to violate our rights. Laws on the books were not meant to be bent or broken...because someone has it rough. We've got to stop making excuses for the actions of someone and simply say...this person does not belong in society, this person needs to be under constant supervison, for the rest of their lives...cuz if they are not, next time, it could be you, or someone in your family. I wish, every American Citizen, would today, put themselves in the shoes of those parents in Lancaster PA, who are putting their children to rest...and pretend, for one moment, that is your child...and then do that every single time you hear a news report about a mass murdering animal. yanno, we talk about terror...and fear another attack...and yet, are we any safer from criminals...they to, in their own being are terrorists..... I'm not trying to breed hate, just stating facts and trying to raise awareness.... Crime is a violation of laws...and if we sit back and continue...we all are responsible, we all will eventually be affected by this.... God bless the cop, who turned his son in for robbery. I know that must have been the most difficult thing in his entire life for him to do...and God bless the boys (who are cops) who turned their father for theft...to me, they are the true citizens who should be leaders, and most certainly role models. They are the ones whose faces should be on the front pages of magazines... Why isn't child pornography taken off any web site immediately???????? Because it sells...cold hard facts...to permit such a thing, makes me want to vomit. I cannot believe our coutry tollerats such a thing, not to mention allows it????? Where are we headed? Oh yeah, you can turn the clocks back...absolutely, and it will happen I'm sure, just not in my lifetime or yours, but somewhere along the line, people are going to get good and sick of it, and when people get angry, thats when they stick together and changes are made. It takes people with goals, people who want to leave this place a little better for their kids....people who have to stop concering themselves with material success, and trends, and start concerning themselves with our mental environment, our spiritual beings...our moral traditions...and stop being so darned liberal and excusing bad behavior. One more thing, the town I grew up in, was then, filled with law abiding citizens...people who respected their community, and worked together...It was a reality...yes, there was crime, small stuff...but nothing like today... It could be like that again, if we'd only get our heads out of the sand and work together, stand together...instead of thinking loving the criminal, excusing the criminal is going to make this problem go away. Call it biased, but I'd prefer to stand by the victims...and fight for them...that to me, is what my heart says is the right thing to do. The criminal lost his/her rights when they took the life of that child, or beat up that old woman for a measly 20 bucks...or raped a child and buried her alive...I'm sorry, but I feel no sympathy for that person who took away a precious life...who violated trust and innocence. Who now, has effected an entire family for the rest of their lives.... My girlfriends cousin was murdered...his father turned into an alcoholic, his brother, mentally feared going outside...his mother slipped into deep depression...so it's not just about the victim, but an entire family and until we become a nation that realizes that, we will continue to be individulists that strive more for corruption, then for moral obligations to our communities. Sincerely Lee J. [This message has been edited by LeeJ (10-05-2006 08:37 AM).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Sigh. Repetition doesn't make something true, Lee, nor does belaboring the obvious lend weight to your arguments. You just said the same things in this post you said in your first, with no allowance, either yay or nay, for anything said in between. If you don't want to listen, the rest of us can quit talking? |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
so I suppose that means I should keep quiet and nod my head like a nice little girl your right, your right, your right? ok, guess your not really listening to me either...thought I had some very good points to make in answering your questions, your statements...but you haven't answered mine. No matter Thread closed |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
I've read most of this thread at one sitting, though I must admit I did lightly scim a few lengthy posts. It isn't necessarily worse today than 40-50 years ago. When I was in school, I knew two drug dealers by their first names...local neighborhood hoods. When I was barely 17, I witnessed a gang style murder, half a block from my home. My childhood neighborhood is a nonstop wall of gang graffitti. But most days I went to school without the fear of some insane person coming onto campus, tying up innocents and murdering them. That this recent school massacre happened in a 'safe' rural Amish setting tells me things have become worse, in many ways. It doesn't seem to make any difference whether or not there is a death penalty, or prison consequences. Guns are only one weapon, but I can't help but believe they are just far too easy to get your hands on, in spite of all the regulations in place nationwide. I'd personally enjoy a total ban, but know that will never happen. For what it is worth, my thoughts are similar, Lee...there is no rehabilitating some of these criminals, and the courts have become far too lenient, even as the prisons and jails are becoming so overcrowded the state of California is now going to begin farming out their prisoners to other states. Working with families, parents and children from preschool upwards to change behavioral violent patterns is the only long term solution. Yet it seems we spend most of our efforts as a nation pumping time and money into incarceration or more layers of laws. The root causes and solutions of violence are often ignored, although on a smaller scale, I have witnessed a handful of parents who said, enough! and encorporated anger management training sessions into their school programs. It has to start at an early age, and if not done in the home, then it must be done within the schools. A lot of the violence starts early, with the too-often ignored verbal bullying, then escalates into the physical. Until we address the first levels of violence more effectively, we are doomed to building more prisons, and watching more horror stories unfold in the media. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: You're perfectly free to disagree, Lee. You're neither agreeing nor disagreeing, though. You're just saying the same things again and again. Violence bad, retribution good. And that's okay, too. Just don't expect me to continue pointing out WHY your proposed solutions won't work, don't work, and have never worked in the past. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
I came back to thank you, Reb, for that info on Homeboy Industries...an excellent start in the right direction. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
LR, the blacks didn't sit in the back of the bus and women were already in the workplace but I thank you anyway for such an inane reply. Thank you for responding with sarcasm. I only lived there. Certainly you must know better... |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I didn't say it wasn't that way Mike, for you. Just pointing out what still isn't obvious, to you. Here's what else I know Mike, Conservative Republican Presidents have been appointing more judges during the last half-century than liberal Democrats have been... Nixon/Ford = 8 Years + Reagan/Bush =12 years + Bush = 6 years -- that's more than twice as many years as the Carter 4 + Clinton 8. Conservative Republicans have been in control of making the laws in Congress for 12 years. Where is your utopia? Kacy -- you're welcome. Lee -- you still don't get it. Sympathy isn't part of the equation. Efficacy is what I'm talking about. You want to reduce recidivism. You want to reduce crime. The primary way to do that is to have fewer criminals. The secondary must be to rehabilitate the criminals you have. Pre-habilitation and re-habilitation are matters of logic -- not sympathy. Increasing penalties and tying judges hands doesn't work. Gee -- if fat people only knew that Snickers bars made them fat they'd never eat them right? If people only knew that unprotected sex caused pregnancy and STD's they wouldn't do that right? If criminals know they face stiff penalties they just won't commit crimes? All that does is encourage more murder -- dead men can't finger you in a line-up. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
I only have one thing to offer this morning that I thought imparative to share. Last night I was completely humbled...and thought of this thread that I started...and my comments...here is why. For those of you who don't know...this past Monday, Oct. 2nd a man walked into an Amish Community's one room school house and proceeded to shoot 10 children...exectution style. At that time 5 children were dead and 5 were seriously wounded. This has been a shocking event for us, here in PA, as it never has happened before, that I can remember. Not that its any worse b/c it has happened here, but it has certainly for me, made Columbine and all other school shootings more real, then before. The Amish are a guiet and humble people...tremendous workers who are steadfast in their faith. Their children do not attend public schools. They plow their fields with horses that are trained to voice command. They refuse the rest of the world and are totally self providing and will not allow their pictures taken, etc. They do no have electric in their homes and transport themselves by horse and carriage. We who live near their community, love to visit there, enjoy their hand crafted quilts, canned goods, cooking, and farm harvests, not to mention, the beauty of rolling farm lands for miles and miles. Last evening I learned that on the evening of the shooting, the Amish community, got together and went to the woman whose husband shot their children. They told her if she needed anything...they would assist, and took up a collection for her, to help her in her time of need. They assured her, that they sought no retribution, that God for some reason, had His reasons for this happening. They gave her more love, then I ever thought imaginable..... Just thought this needed to be said and shared. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I, too, live in the midst of Amish country, Lee, probably closer in fact than most. I usually can't drive to the nearest store, some seven miles into town, without slowing down at least once or twice for a rambling buggy (or a huge pile of horse droppings). My nearest Amish neighbor, Harvey, lives at the end of my dirt road, a bit more than a stone's throw, but certainly close enough to easily see if you're willing to look around a few standing pines. Harvey helped me clear some brush and sumac saplings a few years back, and it was a real delight to walk around my few acres while he gave name to every tree, every shrub, and nearly every weed. His love for the land is obvious and has only served to wet my own. Isn't it lovely, Lee, when people can react not out of anger and hate and fear, but out of honest love and compassion? |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
well, it surely gave me a reality check... and yes, it is.... Love to you and yours Ron, and thank you |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Want a little insight as to what's wrong with the system from an officer's standpoint? http://mfile.akamai.com/12948/wmv/vod.ibsys.com/2006/0728/9591734.300k.asx |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
If you want to blame the Judge Mike you have to wonder how a panel of them is going to solve the problem. But, as is the case so often -- here is the REAL problem (if the Judge is to blame) http://www.smartvoter.org/2002/03/05/ca/sf/race/20/ He ran unopposed in 2002... background http://www.examiner.com/a-199354~Suspects_in_Birco_killing_arraigned.html http://www.examiner.com/a-234608~Keep_killers_off_The_City_s_streets.html It's a story Conservatives are whipping up around the web -- but, the question remains -- what do you want to do -- when you talk about a suspect's rights -- you're talking about YOUR rights. When I talk about protecting YOUR rights -- I can't do that without protecting the suspect's rights. As with so many instances this is yet one more where many are willing to give up liberty for security. I think Police UNION President (featured in your video)Gary Delagnes struck on the real trouble (in this case) right here: quote: There's no Constitutional right to a bail-bondsman, nor to a no-money-down bail bondsman. This is going to be a favorite no-doubt because it features San-Francisco -- but, Officers seem to die in the line of duty everywhere; http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/police/ofckilled.htm http://members.tripod.com/~Stacy_P/officerdown.htm http://www.odmp.org/year.php |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I agree, reb, that officers die everywhere. Two got shot tonight in Miami. More times than not, the acts are committed by people who should not be out on the street. The video blames judges. Icombine the judges with the jury system where the most flambouyant lawyer wins and I also blame what the legal system has become. I think there was a time when the object of a trial was to find the truth. It's not that way anymore. It is only a contest between the prosecutors and the defense lawyers. Truth is secondary. Want proof? What happens if thedefense attorney uncovers information that proves his client is guilty? Can he turn it over to the prosecutors? Can he do anything wth it? No, that violates the rights of the person who is guilty of the crime. We have traffict lawyers here who guarantee to get you out of your ticket - indeed, there are some who have never lost. Truth? Truth is secondary. The contest is first. Combine that with judges as in the example, a jury system that bases their decisions on what their "heart" tells them to do and how much they are impressed by the attorneys and you have the justice system we have now. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Yep, it sucks, Mike. The only thing worse is everything else. Not just everything currently available, but everything man has devised in several thousand years of trying. Justice, just like freedom, doesn't come cheaply. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
The only thing worse is everything else Ron, on that we agree completely. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Well I think there are a couple of people letting their great big hearts lead them on this thread Mike -- and I don't blame you for it.. it's easy to do when we see the innocent being harmed. But, you, like the jury, are using your hearts based on information that comes to you about individual cases. That's where compassion must be applied, compassion for victims always, for the accused always, for the guilty maybe. Because we know the DETAILS of a particular instance we will know where to apply that sympathy. When it comes to the policy/legislative/constitutional level though, we have to face the mechanics of the system as dispassionately as possible in regards to individual cases and place our passion squarely on the collective individual, because what's going to be 'right' in one case is almost never going to be so in another case and surely never so in all cases. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
because what's going to be 'right' in one case is almost never going to be so in another case and surely never so in all cases. Lemmee tell you, Reb, you hit the nail on the head with that one. I agree completely and yet our legal system relies on rules "written in stone" and that is a major problem in our system. That is why cases,even involving major felonies, get thrown out on ridiculous technicalities. Common sense takes a backseat in too many cases. |
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