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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA 
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As a protest to the Pope referringto their religion as violent, muslim estremist groups burned five churches in the West Bank and threatened to send suicide bombers to the Vatican. Is it just me or does that sound like a Saturday Night Live skit??? |
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| © Copyright 2006 Michael Mack - All Rights Reserved | |||
Mistletoe Angel 
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I feel another major South Park episode coming on. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
If nothing else, it does go to proving the Pope's point.  |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
We have to be careful here not to lump the more moderate Muslims in with these extremists who certainly are responsible for these burning of churches and such. I don't think the Pope was at all intending or meaning to demonize the religion of Islam in whole, but all the same I believe there is mass misunderstanding of the Islamic faith (polls show those with little or no understanding of Islam are far more likely to disapprove of the religion and believe it promotes violence, while those with a greater understanding are far more likely to approve of Islam) and I fear discrimination and prejudice toward the Islamic community is well-alive in our current world, and we need to remember that much of the Middle East is being riddled by extremist factions of their faith, while the moderates are largely absent and removed from the positions of power. So when we say things like what the Pope said, or other things I've heard elsewhere along the line of "The muslim community in typical fashion" or "the unprovoked violence the muslim community has caused throughout the world", we need to be severely careful because when any Muslim hears that, that Muslim may think we're not referring to just the extremists, but that we're referring to everyone in the Islamic faith, including moderates and those that believe in our nation's cause for democracy in the Middle East, and that will only severely hurt our relations for generations to come and undermine our genuine cause in spreading democratic institutions to the region. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Pete, doesn't the Pope's action go to prove the extremists point too? |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
No, it has nothing to do with the moderate Muslims, Noah. The extremists will find whatever they can parade to incite the masses, just like the cartoons. This will not be the last excuse for a cause to promote their hatred for their own purposes. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
You might be right, Mike. Then again, you might be wrong. Haven't you ever wondered what the British were saying, oh, around 1773, when those extremists in the Colonies started destroying private property (tea, no less!) with no legitimate provocation? Maybe they, too, assumed it was just another excuse to promote hatred? I don't believe anyone ever hates for no reason at all. Sometimes, people hate for frivolous reasons or wrong reasons, but I honestly believe there are always reasons. Hate is an effect, not a cause. At some point, it might be wise to dig a little deeper and find the true causes. You can bet the British eventually wished they had.  |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Haven't you ever wondered what the British were saying, oh, around 1773, when those extremists in the Colonies started destroying private property (tea, no less!) with no legitimate provocation? Maybe they, too, assumed it was just another excuse to promote hatred? Ron, you have outdone yourself with your comparisons...and that was no easy feat. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I don't believe the extremists necessarily hate. I believe what they do intentionally is to PROMOTE hate....to create hate. Why? The oldest reason in the world....quest for personal power. They tell others THEY should hate. They interpret their religious writings for their followers in a way that makes enemies of anyone outside their faith....enemies to be eliminated. They look for ways to promote this hate such as this last example. The people who DO hate do so out of ignorance and blind faith in their leaders. I'll wager that the educated and rational Muslim does not buy into what the extremists preach. We have certainly had enough of them in this country denouncing the terrorists and proclaiming that that is not what their religion is all about. Unfortunately there are many of the uneducated who WILL believe and follow and allow themselves to be led into hatred. Don't believe that the leaders of the extremist groups are fueled by hatred. They know exactly what they are doing.... |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
quote: What would that point be? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
hundreds of people go to the bowling alley down the street every night call to arms by a hard-line cleric? Proves my point.... |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I stand corrected, Mike. That is, indeed, what you said earlier, and yea, that's quite a bit different than what I read. My bad. quote: And is that what they are telling the people to whom they are promoting the hate? Of course not. The people who feel the hate -- and who, not incidentally, perform the acts of terror -- are given reasons to hate. The reasons don't necessarily have to be valid ones (maybe someone lied to them about WMD?), but they have to be understood. In an ideal world, they might even be countered? You want to read a really bad story or narrative poem? Find one with a villain who is evil. One-dimensional characters, whether they wear a white hat or a black one, are boring. Why? Because we intuitively know they're not realistic. Even people who quest for personal power, say perhaps by running for President, do so for a myriad of reasons. Most, I think, believe they are honestly helping to create a better world, even as they lie to everyone in hopes of instilling fear and hate. Villains, real villains, are almost always just people who have convinced themselves that the end justifies the means. The secret to understanding them, I think, is to look beyond the means and try to see why their particular end is so important to them. Demonizing the enemy makes it so much easier to fight a war. It's not always, however, the best way to win a war. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Does it really matter whether or not Hitler actually, personally hated Jews? Proving your point is not very likely Mike. Until there is a way to deliver a printout of what is in someone's head anyway -- until then we have to judge people's actions as indication of thier beliefs/thoughts. But to the extremists -- the Pope helped prove thiers with his remarks. Does it prove a point at all that the majority of the Muslim world has pretty much thanked the Pope for (sort of) apologizing and said it's not a big deal? |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
...and will that majority of Muslims rebuild the burned churches or protect the Vatican against suicide bombers it is threatened with? It is not the majority that is in question... |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Ron, a bad story with a one-dimentional character? You mean like Hannibal Lector, Freddy Krueger, Jason, Michael Myers or Bluebeard, perhaps? No, one need not demonize but one needs to recognize the evil exists. Ok, let's not call it evil. Let's call it the ultimate goal of the subject. Then, when you have determined that Hitler committed his atrocities because Jews had treated him badly as a child, or he received a calling telling him he was destined to rule the world, or whatever other information you come up with, THEN you take him out because you are not going to shake him from his position. The The same holds true for the terrorist leaders. Whether they are in it for the pure power and financial gain of their position or whether their true hatred of Jews and democratic countries fuels them, you are not going to talk them out of it. Possibly you could talk the citizens out of it.....except you can't get to them and their leaders will continue coming up with things like the cartoons, the Pope, the new "crusade" plotted against them, whatever it takes to keep them incensed. Once the terrorist leaders are gone, THEN you have a chance for positive change....not before. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: C'mon, Mike. Are you really going to argue that Freddy and Jason represent good stories? They give us nothing but a ride on a great roller coaster without the attendant danger of vomiting in our date's lap. quote: I sincerely hope you're wrong, Mike, because the terrorist leaders aren't ever going to be gone. Like the Hydra of Greek legend, cutting off one head only results in the growth of two to take its place. It is not the leaders who give the people their purpose, but the people who give the leaders their power. Until the terrorist leaders start strapping bombs to their chests, you're worrying about the wrong enemy. Convince the people and the leaders will meet their Hercules. Sure, right now the leaders are doing all the convincing, just as you say. I'm surprised, however, you would so quickly admit defeat, giving them that battle without so much as a good fight. Are the only conflicts we can win the ones fought with missiles and American blood? Why do you believe we can't meet them toe to toe, in their own arena, and survive past the first round? Is it perhaps because that kind of fight would first require us to actually understand something of what is at issue for both sides? I'm sorry, Michael, but I fail to see how the hate you're promoting is vastly different than the hate they're promoting. They hate us. You hate them. Mutually assured destruction. And why? Because both sides were convinced the other side hates them. It absolutely astounds me that people can't see something wrong with that picture. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
C'mon, Mike. Are you really going to argue that Freddy and Jason represent good stories? LOL! Certainly not in the literary sense but Hannibal's story won the Oscar, Freddy had at least 6 sequels, Jason had 13. Millions of people went to watch them. Trick or treaters donned their costumes. Your contention is that pure evil presents a boring character...a lot of people certainly weren't bored by them....and I even left out Vlad the Impaler and Al Capone! I sincerely hope you're wrong, Mike, because the terrorist leaders aren't ever going to be gone. A strange sentence from one accusing me of so quickly admitting defeat. I happen to believe, or at least hope, they will. One could have said the same of Hitler. Eliminate him and another would take his place....didn't happen. We certainly DO agree on the fact that it is the people who give them the power. How do you stop that? I'm sure, going back to Hitler, there were millions of Germans who did not agree with Hitler's Jew extermination tactics? Did they do anything? No. Look at Iraq. Although it may physically pain you  to think so, many good things have been done in Iraq. A dictator who murdered millions of them at his whim, public executions, secret torture prisons, ethnic cleansing...has been eliminated. Tens of millions of dollars have gone into public works, infrastructure, and the like. They have their own government and are rebuilding their own military. They are not ungrateful. As one man said on TV who has lost a good friend in a suicide bomb attack, things are not good now but it's better than when Hussein was in power. Now the country is plagued with suicide bombers and terrorist tactics that are aimed at the IRAQI population. Are they, these people who would bring down Hercules, doing anything about it? No....and for the same reasons the Germans didn't - the terrorist have the firepower. Do you see even any peaceful demonstrations condemning the terrorist actions? No....not there or anywhere else. They are quiet out of fear and they will remain quiet out of fear for as long as the terrorist leaders are in power.Toe to toe in their own arena? With what plan of action? You can't get to the part of the arena you need to be in.....the grandstands, where the people are. LR made a very logical comment earlier about winning over the population, especially the younger generation, who will be tomorrow's leaders. Sounds good.....how? Do you think they are going to let you? Do you think they will accept allowing the people to know that America is not a bad place and they want to be their friends? Syria going to allow you to go in and set up YMCA's and shelters for the homeless? Al-Jazeera going to print articles on the generosity of the American people, when they are not busy showing footage of every new Bin Laden tape that comes out? We have spent tens of millions in foreign aid the the Middle East. Several years ago,we sent tons of food to an African country in the midst of a famine. What happened? The food sat in trucks until it went bad based on the leaders claiming that America had sent them unsafe food to kill them.Colin Powell was boo'd at the UN for bringing it up. Now the terrorists and Muslim leaders are telling the people that Bush and the Pope are trying to initiate a new Crusade, to rid the world of Muslims. Even with your dim view of Bush, I don't think you believe that one....but people will. If you go into that arena, be prepared to be ushered to the main ring and with your hands and feet tied with a gag over your mouth. If you think you can win under those circumstances, be my guest. I agree that, if we could sit down with the people for a sincere exchange of views and in a promotion of understanding, good could be done. The problem is that Cerberus is guarding the door. I'm sorry, Michael, but I fail to see how the hate you're promoting is vastly different than the hate they're promoting I challenge you, Ron, to show anywhere I have promoted hatred. I HAVE stated that they are an evil that must be eliminated for any peaceful results to have a chance for success. I have never claimed to either hate them or try to convince others to do so. I kill bugs. I don't hate them when I do it. Hatred does not figure into it, either with the bugs or the terrorists. If I get the flu, I don't hate the flu. I simply take the necessary steps to counterract it. Your accusation is unfounded. They hate us. You hate them. Mutually assured destruction. And why? Because both sides were convinced the other side hates them. This morning the leader of Al Qada in Iraq stated, "People have two choices - convert to Islam or die." Gee, why would I read that and think they hate non-Muslims? You think YOU'RE astounded? I'm FLABBERGHASTED that people cannot see something wrong with THAT picture and not recognize it for what it is. . . CAIRO, Egypt - Al-Qaida in Iraq warned Pope Benedict XVI on Monday that its war against Christianity and the West will go on until Islam takes over the world We need to try harder to understand them? I understand very well.... [This message has been edited by Balladeer (09-18-2006 06:03 PM).] |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
"This morning the leader of Al Qada in Iraq stated, "People have two choices - convert to Islam or die." Gee, why would I read that and think they hate non-Muslims? You think YOU'RE astounded? I'm FLABBERGHASTED that people cannot see something wrong with THAT picture and not recognize it for what it is." Mike, I think you just agreed with Ron here -- key word, "leader." It's the leaders saying that. The people simply follow what they think will provide them with the best chance of survival. Eliminate the need for people to follow radicals and you have defeated terrorism. Eliminate the current foreign policy of arming both sides and then going in and destroying the society, and perhaps fences can be mended. Also, the UN ought to make a special military task force to eliminate gunrunners. Want to see a great movie? I suggest you watch the movie, The Lord of War, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0399295/ . It will really make you stop and think about what really causes the destruction of societies. It isn't about religion. It is about power. Religion is the propganda tool on both sides of this war, and it seems to be working really well, unfortunately. Of course, that is simplied, but it is the truth. Unfortunately, until radical religions (which is still about power) are discontinued as a means of education, there will still be a problem. When people begin to see no need to be told what to believe, the leaders in the madrasahs and masjids would not hold the power they do now; and to continue to maintain their status, they would have to change their message. So what is the solution....well, one is free nonreligious, public education. Without a change in what youth are taught, there will never be an end to hatred. So we should do what we can where we can that will foster that ideal. The whole world is getting sick of the USA's double standards on foreign policy...and that IS how they see it. Why haven't we done more for the masses where we could have....that is what the world asks. Why Iraq? And, why not Dapur...or New Orleans, for that matter? Many come to the conclusion that Iraq has oil to offer and a strategic location in the Middle East whereas Dapur....well, what's there except for poverty, starvation, and disease? [This message has been edited by iliana (09-19-2006 03:44 AM).] |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Is Freddy Kreuger really that one-dimensional? He is a child molester who was burned to death and haunts children's dreams for the two-fold reasons of revenge and true, sick obsession. But the story, to me, is actually very interesting and the concept is very frightening. How is it that he can actually harm people through dreams? Drive teenage girls to eat coffe grounds by the spoonful? What made him a pedophile in the first place? How did it all start? How will it end? And as for Hannibal Lector- a character that ingenius, with that photographic a memory, and a knack for riddles like his- that character would be interesting all by himself. But not only is he a serial killer, he is absolutely nuts... but with more composure that anyone I know. Is that what Clarice sees in him? I don't think those are one-dimensional characters at all. Jason and Micheal Myers also have some identifying features, although I'm less familiar with them. What exactly defines being one-dimensional? I don't like plenty of people becauseI think they are shallow or vapid, but I know that if I did take time to get to know them, I would eventually find something that makes them unique. I think everyone has something that motivates them, and I don't believe it is pure evil. Food for thought. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I think this is simply a case of ABC: A – The Pope B – Muslims C – The extremists A says that B are violent and C burns down some churches, does that prove that Muslims are violent? The problem is that C are a subset of B and consequently they get tarred with the same brush, if you need an example closer to home try this A – Grinch B – Americans C – The KKK A says that B are racist and C burns a few churches, does that prove that Americans are racist? If I were assigning blame based on the examples I’d have to say that A and C were the guilty parties, one made a sweeping statement about a largely innocent group and the other unlawfully burnt down some churches. In both cases B are, in the main, innocent bystanders. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
So what is the solution....well, one is free nonreligious, public education. Sounds good, iliana. Which cities in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Dafur and North Korea would you choose to set up these schools? Do you think you can just go to these governments and say "We want to set up free, nonreligious public education for your youth", and be allowed to do so? I'm not meaning to belittle your reply because you say many logical things there but you offer no path as to how these things can be achieved. Yes, the keywords are "leaders" and "power". That is why I say eliminate the terrorist leaders and their power and THEN you can implement your ideas. The whole world is getting sick of the USA's double standards on foreign policy. Sorry, miss. I don't recognize your ability to be a spokesman for the "whole world" or educate us on what makes them sick. It appears the reason and logic you applied to the first two paragraphs dissolved into a rant in the third but, then again, we all rant at one time or another.  Hush, I think what Ron meant by "one-dimentional" was a character with only one side - the evil side. As entertaining as freddy, Jason and the boys were, they were still the embodiment of that one dimention only - evil. MIichael Myers has NO other identifiable features. He was, in my opinion, by far the scariest of them all and that is why the Halloween series achieved such success based on that first movie. Nice to see you are up on your slasher and psychological monster movies....that's ADMIRABLE!! :hatsofff: |
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Balladeer
Administrator
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
grinch, you are absolutely right but one of the problems is that B is an innocent bystander. If they were not bystanders they could make a change. In your second example, that happened but it has not happened in the first. There are millions of Muslims who want peace and do not agree with the actions of the extremists. How many public demonstrations by them have you seen denouncing the terrorists and their use of their religion as an excuse to commit atrocities? Me, neither. Being bystanders does not necessarily make them innocent. They have the power to initiate change and do nothing...does that make them inocent - or guilty? |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
"Sounds good, iliana. Which cities in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Dafur and North Korea would you choose to set up these schools?" Mike, ever heard of television, or Radio Free Europe....why not television, computer programs and Radio Free Middle East. True, it would take a long time....but, consider the alternative. I foresee for every terrorist who is cut down, two springing up in his/her place for eternity until there is noboby left but terrorists. I realize that television can be state controlled, but I don't think they have the where-with-all to stop internet browsing yet or radio waves. When we lived in Indonesia we were able to get Sesame Street, even through that state run government. 'Course Dapur...that would require dropping radios. And North Korea....well, there's a real problem. I would not call their dictator a terrorist though....I would call him a dictator (who maybe tries to deal with terrorists) and I do think his people would welcome a change. Personally, I think North Korea represents a bigger threat than Iran. No, I cannot speak for the whole world. But I do hear things from many of my friends abroad in Australia, NZ, Indonesia, England, Saudi Arabia, Eqypt, France and South Africa about how arrogant the USA comes across so I am not speaking from my own perspective but a consensus of those foreigners and expats I know living overseas -- particularly the expats, who have found living and traveling overseas much, much more dangerous and difficult. And believe you me, those expats keep their ears to the ground. To end terrorism, the only way to end it, is to do away with the cause of it. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Oops....forgot to address Lebanon.  Do you realize, Mike, that Lebanon was on its way to being a real democracy! The overwhelming response by Israel did not help that situation. Now we have very angry Lebanese people (not only there displaced in Lebanon, but here in the US and the UK), who shake their heads and wonder why we did not intervene to prevent all the damage to their infrastructure, not to mention all the innocent lives lost. And....the Hezbollah will take full advantage of that situation. They will be the ones to provide shelter, food, medical care and faith to those once free-thinking democracy-traveling Lebanese citizens, and I suspect many of them will trade democracy for the brotherhood and care received by Hezbollah. Even Jordan, who so far has been a friend, must be wondering about what happened there. What Hezbollah and Hamas offer the people is what we (or their own governments) are not offering them. [This message has been edited by iliana (09-20-2006 12:11 AM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Do you realize, Mike, that Lebanon was on its way to being a real democracy! Are you saying that Lebanon is not on its way to becoming one now? Israel's response to Hezbollah's actions killed democracy in Lebanon? How do you know that? How many angry Lebanese people do you know who are shaking their heads wondering why the US did not intervene? Iliana, you are speaking generalities and presenting them as fact, just like talking to a few of your friends overseas somehow translates into what the whole world thinks. That's not realistic. You think North Koreans would welcome a change? Why? They have been raised to hate the United States and live in complete isolation. You blame the US for not intervening in Lebanon but criticize them for intervening anywhere else? I don't understand that. In speaking of lebanon, you fault the response of Israel, the failure of the US not to intervene.....nothing about the actions of Hezbollah. shelter, food, medical care and faith to those once free-thinking democracy-traveling Lebanese citizens So you are stating they are not that now?....that somehow all that has been erased because Israel responded and we did not intervene? I just don't understand how you can reach the conclusions you do....but I do know that whatever conclusions you reach seems to paint the United States as the bad guy and i wonder why. To end terrorism, the only way to end it, is to do away with the cause of it. Bravo! I agree completely. The cause of it is the power-hungry terrorist leaders who use religion to foster it, as you have also stated in this thread. Do away with them and end it. What Hezbollah and Hamas offer the people is what we (or their own governments) are not offering them. Yes, Hezbollah offered the Lebanese people the opportunity to be bombed by Israel for their actions. What WE are not offering them? We should be making offers to the Lebanese people now? What exactly was the US supposed to offer them? Again, it's our fault. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
Irregardless who is right and who is wrong. holy poeple don't burn churches and intelligent poeple should know better then to incourage malaice behavior. -Juju -<>-~-<>-~-<>- * Juju * -<>-~-<>-~-<>- |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
"You blame the US for not intervening in Lebanon but criticize them for intervening anywhere else? I don't understand that. In speaking of lebanon, you fault the response of Israel, the failure of the US not to intervene.....nothing about the actions of Hezbollah." I believe the U.S. could have put pressure on Israel to temper its response. I believe the Hizbollah was in the wrong to start things and please do not put me on the side of the terrorist just because I see how they are able to grow in power. And yes, they should have been stopped and shouldn't have taken the prisoners. But, I also believe that Israel's drastic measures have only made them more enemies than they had before and because the Middle East associates them with U.S., we've got more enemies than we had before. www.debka.com (an Israeli news service) reports that the leader of the Hizbollah was at the Presidential palace...under the protection of the President of Lebanon...and that they (Israel) considered taking out the Presidential Palace. Thank goodness they didn't...that's all I can say. With the UN intervention now, perhaps Lebanon's road to democracy can be rebuilt. Lebanon was in a very vulnerable state when this happened...just getting out of being under Damascus' thumb. Now, I fear, the people of Lebanon are less likely to trust the West and more likely to sympathize with terrorists. No, I cannot speak authoritatively, Mike, it is just my opinion and logic, just like you have yours. The difference in the way we think is that I am firmly convinced that violence only leads to more violence....war only leads to more war. The root of terrorism is not terrorism....it is a war over an idea and that is what has to be fought. This has all gone very off track of the thread's intent. Sorry. Juju, I agree...but nor do holy people burn Masjids and Temples....soldiers, however, do...and sometimes they believe they are fighting holy wars...take the Crusades, for instance. Note to Mike....you may really like that website as it agrees with you.  [This message has been edited by iliana (09-20-2006 03:22 AM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You are right, iliana....an interesting website. It is interesting that a country so on the road to democracy has a president who hides a terrorist leader responsible for his country being bombed in his presidential palace under orders from another terrorist country. I don't see much of a road to democracy there you referred to. The crusades? Absolutely and don't forget the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem witch trials. History is filled with examples of atrocities conducted under the name of Christianity. Does that make Christians evil? No, just as the muslim history does not brand all muslims as evil. If a muslim holy leader would have come out and referred to the Crusades as a rebuttal and Catholic extremists had then gone out and burned mosques and threatened the holy leaders with death, what reaction do you think we would have seen? I'll tell you one thing i believe to be certain. Catholics would have risen up to condemn those extremists who committed the actions. We see no such demonstration from the muslim world and that's not a good sign. Juju is right. Holy people do not burn churches. It's as simple as that. Terrorists do and that's what is present here. For the rest of the muslim world to fail to denounce these terrorists committing atrocities under the name of their religion is a very unnerving indication of how far away actual peace betwee the two could be. Oh, and for the record, I would never put you on the side of the terrorists. I find a few of your ideas like dropping radios into dafur a little off the beaten path but at least you are giving a lot of thought to whatever alternatives or plans of action one could use to combat terroristic influences and I find that admirable. |
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rhia_5779 Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334California |
he whole world is getting sick of the USA's double standards on foreign policy...and that IS how they see it. Why haven't we done more for the masses where we could have....that is what the world asks. Why Iraq? And, why not Dapur...or New Orleans, for that matter? Many come to the conclusion that Iraq has oil to offer and a strategic location in the Middle East whereas Dapur....well, what's there except for poverty, starvation, and disease? illiana i agree wiht you completely on the above bit. there were plenty other countries that could have used our more than Iraq did. about the muslim moderates who are on the sides, why they aren't condemming the extremists may have something to do with the fact that as you have said your own self, they are threatening death to their people, if they will threaten death to the hundred thousands of people who won't convert think what they may do to their own people who protest them???????????? As for Darfur not Darpur there it is less a people dictator situation as it is a rebel group recking havoc and genocide. Doing stuff with the gov won't help much unless they stop defending the Janjaweed, we could send in aid and money there and support oxfam more |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: You maybe right Mike, they could be classed as guilty of doing nothing, of course using the same logic the US is just as guilty in the cases where they could help other countries but don’t. I’d rather believe the inaction in both cases is born of necessity rather than malice, the US applies resources where they believe the need is most pressing and where the results have a clear and positive effect on Americans, Muslims, being people, act in the exactly the same way. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
Unfortunitly, If we stop medeling it doesn't meen others will do to. Terrist Have their ajenda and we have ours. It is easy to forget that. I think the question is how do we stop falling in to their traps and when do we have them stepping into their own. -Juju -<>-~-<>-~-<>- |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You maybe right Mike, they could be classed as guilty of doing nothing, of course using the same logic the US is just as guilty in the cases where they could help other countries but don’t. Sorry, Grinch, but you missed the point, I'm afraid. There is no relationship between the two. In the case of the muslims, THEIR country is suffering - THEIR friends and family are being killed by terrorists - THEIR religion is getting a bad rap....and all because the people that THEY allow to have the power stay in power because THEY will not stand up and speak out against them. That has no comparison with one country helping another. They need to help THEMSELVES. That's the issue. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Ahh, then you finally admit, Mike, that we had no business at all invading Iraq? It was up to the people, not us, to get rid of their dictator? More seriously (because, yes, that was tongue-in-cheek), it's difficult, I think, to apply American standards to other countries. Demonstrating in protest is very much an American thing that doesn't always translate well to other cultures. As Rhia already hinted, Chinese students who tried it in Tiananmen Square found it less than effective. It's rarely easy to change people's minds. Forty years ago, militant black groups were convinced that white Americans feared and hated them. Like you, Mike, they saw nothing that could ever really change that, nothing that wasn't "too little too late." Sadly, I think they were partially right, but I hope history has shown they were mostly wrong. It's not easy to stop seeing someone as your enemy, but it is possible. I think the very first step in convincing someone you don't hate them is stop hating them. The people of the Middle East have valid complaints against America. The terrorist leaders, I think, have only taken advantage of the tools we have given them, and we only play into their hands every time we (or our allies) ignore and compound the people's complaints. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
No need to apologise Mike. The US gives aid to other countries based on benefit to THEIR country measured against the possible risks – that’s human nature and not surprisingly the Muslims do exactly the same. If the punishment for speaking out against your governments policies is death the sensible thing to do is weigh the possible benefits and risks. If you do that the best course of action is not speaking out or inaction. If helping another country involves putting thousands of your own countrymen at risk the benefits have to be fairly substantial – stability in an oil producing region or removing the threat of future devastating attacks on your homeland. If those benefits don’t exist the best course of action is inaction. I agree that if the downtrodden Muslims rose up as one and kicked out the extremists they’d be a whole lot better off but the reasons why they don’t is fairly understandable and they just happen to be the same reasons that guide American foreign policy. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Ron and grinch, I have given a lot of thought to your replies and I have to agree. I'm guilty of being too simplistic in my comments. It's very easy to stand in a safe place and say "Do something!" and quite different when you are the one in danger. I do remember how the US backed out on the Kurds, leaving them in dire straits, and fostering distrust for the future. It's just that, in the case of Iraq, they have every reason to rise up against the terrorists. There is no way, I don't think, that the terrorists can be having the success they have without the help of the populace. What reasons do they have? The terrorists are killing Iraqis...men, women, children. The US is there to help build the infrastructure and with military support. America has shown they will not cut and run. They will never have a better opportunity to rid themselves of terrorism than now. Perhaps even all that is not enough. I don't know. At times I confess that it seems hopeless....and, yet, I continue to believe that the ONLY alternative is to eliminate the terrorist leaders. By the way, Ron, the pic of the student standing in fornt of the tank in Tianeman square was shown all over the world and, I believe, DID benefit their cause. Just a picture of one person standing in the face of danger for his beliefs meant a lot to many. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
"It's just that, in the case of Iraq, they have every reason to rise up against the terrorists. There is no way, I don't think, that the terrorists can be having the success they have without the help of the populace. What reasons do they have? The terrorists are killing Iraqis...men, women, children. The US is there to help build the infrastructure and with military support. America has shown they will not cut and run. They will never have a better opportunity to rid themselves of terrorism than now. Perhaps even all that is not enough. I don't know. At times I confess that it seems hopeless....and, yet, I continue to believe that the ONLY alternative is to eliminate the terrorist leaders." Mike, that is the way we are presented with the situation. The Middle East, on the other hand, is being presented with the scenario by many Arabic media services that it is U.S. black ops going around exploding IEDs and causing civilian death just to prolong the U.S. occupation. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
hmmm...I know of no Arabic news services that claim that the suicide bombers are not terrorists or recruited by AlQaida. There is little doubt that Iraqis know...suicide bombing is a terrorist trademark, not an American one. The Middle East knows that. What's more, the terrorist groups have publicly stated that they will continue the bombings until the Americans leave. I believe your informations is faulty, iliana. [This message has been edited by Balladeer (09-21-2006 12:01 AM).] |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Mike, this is a little back on track to the point of your thread, but also reflects the attitude about the U.S. which is being propagated in the Middle East. Unfortunately, it is difficult to find as many links as I think I could provide you with because I do not read Arabic. But this one is in English: http://www.albawaba.com/en/news/203277 Also, the following may or may not have originated in Arab countries, in fact at least one is from China and several are Western bloggers, I believe. But examining a few of these will give you the picture I was stating. There were hundreds more, but I don’t have the time to do that much reading tonight, and to tell you the truth, I’m a little paranoid about just how many Middle Eastern websites or anti-war ones I visit...lol. http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-09/19/content_3514065.htm http://www.williambowles.info/ini/2006/0206/ini-0397.html http://www.back-to-iraq.com/archives/2005/09/is_it_civil_war_yet.php http://www.newsfeeds.com/archive/talk-politics-peace/msg00096.html http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m18576&date=10-dec-2005_02:15_ECT http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=438 http://www.ablogistan.com/archives/2005/11/free_press_in_i.html http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/04/05/EDGLU4UE3R1.DTL http://www.terrorfileonline.org/en/index.php/Main_Page http://www.pej.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=ar ticl e&sid=2717&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12063.htm http://www.zaman.com/?bl=commentary&alt=&trh=20060920&hn=36654 Press Commentary on the top of the page. And this link below (at the end of this paragraph) is particularly interesting, because why on earth would “insurgents” not want newspapers? Nevermind....dah! guess I figured that out. However, if there were papers printing “rumors” of occupier black ops to the general public, well, it would make sense to shut them down, I guess. And if it were a true free press, then it seems to me that asset(s) would be strongly protected. If you can give me a better explanation, then please do...it might make me feel better. In fact, there really is very little free press in Iraq, if any – why is that? Journalists afraid to print the truth? I think not because I saw hundreds of Iraqi women and men, willing to die for the right to vote, come out to the polls, holding up their blue fingers in defiance of those who would prevent freedom. I do not think the Iraqi people who want their country and their freedom would hesitate to publish news unless there were a very significant threat -- can the insurgency be that significant...to stop the presses? And, if it is -- well, then, perhaps there is no winning this war and things are much, much worse than we suspect. I am convinced that in a time of "war" the occupying forces would want to control the media and press -- it is only logical. So is there no control over the media there, do we control it or do the insurgents by shutting it down? http://onthescene.msnbc.com/baghdad/2006/04/targeting_iraqs.html Really, honestly, not intending to argue with you at all, Mike....just trying to find some answers. I seem to remember somewhere in this thread someone saying that the Moslems needed to condemn the reaction to what the Pope said. This thread http://www.iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/ pretty much does that in an educated sort of way. What is really interesting are some of the comments posted to it. [This message has been edited by iliana (09-21-2006 02:56 AM).] |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
hmmm...I know of no Arabic news services that claim that the suicide bombers are not terrorists or recruited by AlQaida. There is little doubt that Iraqis know...suicide bombing is a terrorist trademark, not an American one. The Middle East knows that. Yano, Mike, I think I took the wrong approach to responding to this above. Rather than trying to show you where Middle Easterners are being fed the “black ops” idea, I should have responded to your comment with this definition of Iraqi insurgency: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_insurgency . “45% of the Iraqi population, and up to 88% among the Sunni Arab minority[citation needed], see military attacks on Coalition forces as legitimate opposition to what they perceive as a colonial occupying power, but what is, according to Iraq's democratically elected government, a welcome U.S. presence in the country. Iraq's deep ethnic and sectarian divides have been a major dynamic in the insurgency, with the insurgency finding much weaker support from some segments of the population than others.” My question to you is: is Iraq comprised of 44% terrorists now? Also, in doing all the research for the previous comment, I ran across a number of articles suggesting the U.S. is behind the insurgency and I think some of those links even suggested that. So, in your definition, Mike, it looks like half the Iraqi population are terrorists. The whole country is not comprised of terrorists, is it? Only 45%? Golly....as soon as that figure gets to be 55% maybe we should just nuke'em and get out of there (cynicism, of course, and going for the jugular--and teasing a little ...forgive me, please). It's high time we Americans wake up about the situation there. If we implement the draft and send 500,000 more troops there, it will only lead to WWIII. All the drums have been pounding. We need to come to some solution which will get us out of Iraq, saving as much face as possible, and assure Iran, Syria, Eqypt and Saudi Arabia that we are not imperialist aggressors. A commitment to withdraw might be a start. It doesn't really matter whether or not it is propaganda that is influencing the thoughts of our opposers or would-be opponents -- what matters is, they believe it because most of them already have axes to grind with us. Iran, China, North Korea, possibly Russia, not to mention all other Islamic states and the little guys to the south of us, like Cuba, Venezuela, etc.....are we really ready to take them all on at once? Or, is it already too late? [This message has been edited by iliana (09-21-2006 04:29 AM).] |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: There are far too many in the process of covering the other end of thier anatomy to make it happen... |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
LR - Sadly, I agree with you. |
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