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A home without a wall, |
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| The Alley |
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BE CAREFUL.... what you eat.... |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665
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Just been reading this piece about the food industry stateside..and i have to say that i am more than a little concerned for all of my fellow pip poets for what they may eat.. Check out this report and know why i have said for you to BE CAREFUL.. http://www.creators.com/opinion_show.cfm?columnsName=miv http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/zforum/01/nation_meat040901.htm Watch what you eat...and keep healthy everybody.. Goldenrose. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I think our colonial cousins have probably less to worry about than we have and definitely a whole lot less than the people in third world countries. |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Grinch ...fine if that is your attitude and you get a nasty ecoli bug that may stop your body organs from working..dont take the advice..even third world country people who are starving deserve to have clean food..that is a basic human need..seems that the need is not being met in this instance. Goldenrose. |
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Mistletoe Angel 
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
 Thanks for the heads-up, dearest friend! I've been paying close attention to this myself, particularly bill H.R. 2699, and want to see to it my future family is fed with Mother Nature's natural harvest, not from parcels grazed with GMO's and pesticides. Coping with an eating disorder known as orthorexia nervosa as of late, I've been living with some obsession in keeping pure, not keeping lanky. However, I have lost a lot of weight in result of going as much as 60 hours straight without eating and when I do, it's all-natural, and so to some of my friends it seems as though I have the same thing Lindsay Lohan or the Olsen Twins dad. I've been making an effort to battle this, but scary legislation like this is no remedy. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: 99% of E. coli bacteria are harmless; in fact they’re actually useful – being necessary for our digestive processes to work. Granted some strains of E. coli, such as E. coli O157:H7, are harmful but in most cases they cause nothing more than diarrhoea. Kidney failure is possible but is the exception rather than the rule – you’re probably more likely to get shot or run over stateside than die from E. coli poisoning. That said I’m always open to useful advice while abroad, how exactly do I avoid getting an E. coli infection? |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
If you go to the link provided they give you useful advice. Grinch if you dont think that it is important enough for you to worry about, then go and see what the link says. Perhaps the unfortunate lady that had ecoli poisoning while pregnant and had a poor unforunate child who is retarded might sway your opinion, all through eating poisoned meat? Now the inspectors cannot do their job properly do you know where your meat has come from? or how it has been processed? If you dont, it may be time to find out, if you have nothing beter to do that is...keep healthy..keep safe.. Goldenrose. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
paranoia will only get one about as far as an overbearing, opinionated statement that precludes another's right to their own decisions and disingenuously implies a lesser intelligence than the originator due solely on a differing point of view. it amazes me how many people openly and vehemently berate [fill in the blank] for not bettering our country/way of living/political standing and harp upon the woes of a third-world country, when the price of their computer could feed someone over there for a considerable amount of time. just my thoughts as i read the statements in this thread. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You know why, Chris, and may I say that the first sentence of your reply was one of the most impressive statments I have ever read. You sounded smart!  |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Goldenrose, I have no doubt that your post was created by your sincere interest in our health and welfare. I thank you for your concern. |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
This thread was meant only as a guide for those who maybe eat out at resaurants etc. The people of my country did not know of the dangers of ecoli until we had a major outbreak that killed elderly people. The source was tracked down to a butchers that was not using clean methods.If this sort of thing can happen and spread in a place as small as the UK, what might it do to the US, Canada, or anywhere for that matter? After the BSE scare we do not take any chances, the processing is monitored by inspectors and they have the say to close if they think it necessary. What this link says, if i am not mistaken, is that the inspectors powers have been removed? If that is the case then more people will surely be poisoned, and if they are, then nothing can be done to stop the bad processing plants even if the inspectors wanted to, now that is scary, no matter where you live..isnt it?..All i am saying is just check, ask questions...even the places that sell these products dont know what to do for the best, is that an ideal situation to you for basic human food consumption? Goldenrose. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
The second link was useful. The first link I also read in my local newspaper on the 11th, and found everything after 'Here's another little gem' to be a waste of ink and wood pulp fiber. But that's just my opinion. I'm sure there's just as many who thought the entire article was Gospel truth. As far as meat handling and preparation is concerned, there's a reason I prefer Kosher, like Hebrew National sausages and hotdogs. There's very strict rules and ordinances in that methodology, something the Meat Packer's Union would never tolerate. |
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stargal Senior Member
since 2006-03-06
Posts 1352OR USA |
Soo... I shouldn't care about what i'm eating at home?! ^_- I think this might qualify in more places than restaurants... No offence to anyone here, and even though i agree a lot with what has been said about being careful, there is a time when our food becomes too clean, if that's even possible. I admit, clean food is good, it's awesome, it's great! But as our foods become even cleaner our immune system lessons. Our bodies do not learn to tolerate the germs within our foods, and other things. @-->--- |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
What this link says, if i am not mistaken, is that the inspectors powers have been removed? I'm curious as to why you ended that with a question mark. Does that indicate you don't know and, if so, why not research it first to find out since it would be important to the point you are trying to make? Now the inspectors cannot do their job properly You used no question mark there. Why is that? Once again, your concern for us is appreciated. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
True Stargal. That's one of the main reasons I eat plain goatmilk yogurt, high fat cottage cheese and high fat sour cream. I guess you can get the low fat if you really wanna, but I need all the fuel I can get, as well as 'good' bacteria and enzymes. Roofing really takes it out of ya. |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Stargal i can see your point of view, but this is not just about food being ''too'' clean it is about how it is processed before it gets to you. Now that the inspectors do not have much of a say, they are unable to do anything about the rogue plants and processors. Before they could stop the bad meat before it got to the stores. It takes only one bad plant to make things really bad for A LOT of people...as i said be careful.. Goldenrose. |
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stargal Senior Member
since 2006-03-06
Posts 1352OR USA |
Goldenrose - Do you think the processors really care, or is this just another job to pay the bills? No, i'm not trying to be rude, i just want your honest opinion, cause i don't know. Oops, i meant the inspectors, there i go again, thinking about one thing typing another! @-->--- |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Balladeer... i used the ? mark because i am not at all sure of the circumstance that brought this all about for the american people in the first place? I mean it was passed at night, when most people would have been sleeping, does somebody gain by the relaxing of these rules?. I know the inspectors dont have the power to go after the processors. Goldenrose. |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Stargal In my honest opinion i think that like most people standing to make money, if they can get away with shoddy practices they WILL get away with shoddy practices. They had inspectors watching over their shoulders, keeping an eye out for the people, now those inspectors have been moved out of view...when the cats away..the mice will play..except in this instance they are playing with lives..and that is a bad shame...do you and others have cover for hosptial treatment if you are poisoned? Goldenrose. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Oh yes they do, can and have. Food safety inspectors can shut down restaurants, groceries, butcher shops, meat processing plants, and feedlots. If someone tries to block access, it's amazing what a trip to the State District Attorney can accomplish. Now granted, as with every profession there will be some completely corrupt who will give high passing grades to anyone given the proper 'incentive', like a free time-share or vehicle. Edit: Goldenrose, think for a moment who might've been behind pushing the bill in the first place. These things just don't happen of their own accord. Generally, someone is buying someone else, and usually it's a Political Action Committee, Special Interest Lobby, or Labor Union. Follow the money. |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Alicat.let me re phraise the powers that inspectors have..they have no ''teeth'' to be effective, especially against big processors... Goldenrose. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
hmmm....the bill passed at night when people were asleep....now THAT is intriguing! |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
sorry Mike, I'll try not to do it again!  |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: They don’t give you any advice on how to avoid E. coli infections if you eat at a restaurant or fast food outlet and there’s a very good reason why they don’t – you can’t tell infected food from uninfected food without a lab test. You keep saying, “be careful” and “watch out” but what exactly should I be watching out for? |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Grinch ..this is the crux of the argument, you cannot tell meat with ecoloi from meat without.Essentially the inspectors would would find out about repeated violations by processing plants. Unfortunately the inspectors have now had their power reduced. You also have to take it on trust that the plant puts the safety of it's customers first before any of it's own profits. Do you think that they will do that? One way to ensure your risk is reduced is by eating only meat that you cook at home yourself. It states in the link above, that you can buy a thermometer and cook it properly to the correct temperature, to kill the ecoli. For beef it should be 160 degrees, for poultry 165. Goldenrose. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
What should you be watching out for, grinch? I think the answer to that has become obvious...our horrible administration that has reduced powers of inspectors, put all of our lives in danger, and just don't care if we all drop dead of e.coli tomorrow or not. That is, unfortunately, the point behind this thread. Just another shot. Goldenrose, I admire your innovativeness but find it sad you hide behind an "emotional sincerity for your friends" screen to mask your real purpose. It would have been more honest to just come out and say, "The U.S. administration, headed by GW Bush, has cut back the powers of meat inspectors, placing American lives in danger" instead of the "Take care of yourselves, my American friends and be safe" approach you used. At least that would have been more respectable. |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Believe it or not Baladeer i DO have the interest of the poets on PIP at heart, if you can make that into something else concerning the Bush administration then you must be quite sad and extremly embarrassed for them.At the very least i do HAVE a heart... Goldenrose. |
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vlraynes Member Rara Avis
since 2000-07-25
Posts 8229Somewhere... out there... |
Balladeer... believe it or not, not everyone has a hidden political agenda. Rather, some people care, simply for the sake of caring... regardless of political implications but if you choose to go looking for a hidden agenda, you'll likely find one...even where one does not exist... I don't know Goldenrose, so I can't vouch for any underlying motives that he may or may not have... so, out of respect for him as a human being, I choose to take his concerns at face value. Goldenrose?... I was not aware of this bill, and found the information interesting... Thank you for sharing it, and for your concern. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." --Jimi Hendrix |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: When it comes to horrible administrations and the emphasis on the dangers ‘stateside’ , pots, kettles and the colour black come to mind: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/scotland/445997.stm quote: Yes, I take it on trust that reputable plants are following the highest hygiene standards; I also take it on trust that the food inspectors who visit those sites are checking those standards. H.R. 4167 "National Uniformity for Food Act," the bill in question, is primarily aimed at getting uniformed food labelling – it has no connection to E. coli or health inspections, unless there’s some state out there that insists that all contaminated meat is labelled before being sold. The bill won’t reduce inspections or impare the power of inspectors, it’ll just mean that all food will have uniform labelling – are there any downsides to this? Sure - some states have labelling laws that are more stringent than those laid out in the Act for those states the new law is a backwards step but, in my view, the overall effect will be an improvement. |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Grinch i did not say the the UK didnt have problems, indeed i said we had a problem when elderly people began dying of ecoli,then we began to take things seriously, but isnt it strange how people tend to take things seriously only when human beings begin to die? Then it is too late..but you must choose to take it seriously or not ..but if you or anyone close to you gets sick through this...perhaps it will be serious enough for you then?..have a great easter... Goldenrose. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: The people who died in Lanarkshire died in spite of all the safeguards put in place, since the deaths no additional safeguards have been put in place – in fact, as my link demonstrates, research into E. coli has been reduced since the deaths. Why is that? Are the Government failing to take the threat posed by E. coli infection seriously? Or has the Government decided that we are in fact doing sufficient to minimise future outbreaks based on a potential risk analysis. Is it possible that the Government has realised that E. coli infection is in fact statistically more likely to occur in the home than in the food industry? Could it be that it has decided that the money would be better spent in that area, through education perhaps? Or have the Government decided that the risk is so low it may be better to do nothing for fear of sensationalising a minor issue into a major health scare? quote: In the category of things I’m likely to take seriously as a risk to my health E. coli is right up there with horses and household appliances – they’re all potentially fatal in certain circumstances but don’t generally induce me to panic. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yes, Vicky, some people are capable of seeing hidden agendas and some are capable of seeing what is before their eyes. My reply was based on the following comments by Goldenrose... Now the inspectors cannot do their job properly What this link says, if i am not mistaken, is that the inspectors powers have been removed Now that the inspectors do not have much of a say, they are unable to do anything about the rogue plants and processors. Before they could stop the bad meat before it got to the stores I mean it was passed at night, when most people would have been sleeping, does somebody gain by the relaxing of these rules?. I know the inspectors dont have the power to go after the processors. now those inspectors have been moved out of view let me re phraise the powers that inspectors have..they have no ''teeth'' to be effective Unfortunately the inspectors have now had their power reduced. Everyone reading this thread will form their own opinion as to the underlying message of the text. I simply expressed mine. Goldenrose, please don;t think I feel you have no "heart" or are uncaring. I have no doubt you are sincere in the caring portion of your comments. I wish you a good Easter holiday.  |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Baladeer as Vicky pointed out if we all looked for political agendas in everything we write, then we would never actually get to the problem we are supposed to be addressing? Believe it or not i DO have the health of the people at heart...and no agenda... Grinch... you are now seeing the problem..governments dont want to see the problem, to them everything is money orientated...that is why i am asking you to BE CAREFUL...i didnt say PANIC!!!...you see if you keep quoting my words you are trying to find an agenda that i do not have.???..you are tending to think that i am some how trying to belittle things in your country..dont forget that there are other countries here at pip too..including canada, australia, south africa, holland just to name a few..ecoloi doesnt discriminate,it will make any human being sick, now at what level of seriousness you take this is entirely up to you?...I was bringing this to your attention, dont shoot the messenger here..what i would say is that you can help yourself and others by maybe asking questions of the right people..again how far you take it is up to you and people as individuals ...i was merely informing of the dangers..perhaps there are some people here that would argue that black is white purely because they like the argument...but anyway..may i wish a great easter to all at the famous blue pages.. Goldenrose. [This message has been edited by Goldenrose (04-15-2006 02:55 PM).] |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Goldenrose, quote: Actually I don’t think that at all, I think you’re trying to suggest that American food inspector’s ability to do their jobs is being infringed by the new bill and that consequently E. coli is a bigger threat or problem than it actually is. If you ever do feel the urge to belittle my country btw please feel free, it’s the small island on the edge of Europe between Ireland and France. quote: That’s my problem I don’t see any messenger or message worth aiming at, so far you’ve told me to ‘be careful’ and to ‘watch out’ but not what to watch out for. You’ve suggested an American bill on food labelling will stifle the powers of food inspectors (which it won’t) and you’ve tried to make what is normally a fairly innocuous malady into something akin to the Black Death. quote: Of course there are this is the Alley! If you simply wanted to express your concern for your fellow poets you could have posted in Announcements & Links and left out the dubious reference to the food bill. Instead you decided to state that black was white and that the third and fourth riders of the apocalypse had been let loose ‘stateside’ because of a labelling bill passed at midnight while everyone was abed. Then you claim you were just being neighbourly when the facts you post are challenged and found wanting. What did you expect from someone called Grinch sitting in an Alley – flowers? [This message has been edited by Grinch (04-15-2006 05:52 PM).] |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
*edited by Alicat* my arguments do hold water..this thread was posted here because of the way the powers that be allowed it to get into the public domain..this then is the rightful place to poet such a post..i didnt make the rules.on this...could you please allow someone else to maybe have a say? I shall not reply to another post of yours after this....happy easter.. Goldenrose. [This message has been edited by Alicat (04-15-2006 09:55 PM).] |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"... could you please allow someone else to maybe have a say?" ~ With all due respect, what we have here is much ado about nothing. You have more of a chance to die from choking on a piece of food than to die of e-coli. So with that in mind, I think a post about how to chew one's food properly needs more attention. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
JCP..fine another one who finds that their health is not important...so be it.. it is your call..thanks for commenting anyway.. Goldenrose. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"JCP..fine another one who finds that their health is not important...so be it.. it is your call.." ~ Whoah! That is one "slippery slope" you presented. So, what you are saying is this... My health is not important to me because I don't care about the subject matter you posted. ~ Well, I think I know about what is important to me than you do. My health is important to me, however this "worry" of yours, just doesn't make my priority list. I believe both Grinch and Balladeer said it best. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: quote: pot, kettle, black? |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
just to let people know i have asked for this thread to be closed as it obviously does not sufficiently interest or bother the people who may be affected. As a result of the childish response by some to what i deem to be an inportant subject, i have reluctantly decided to end the thread...thank you to those who took this seriously and for the people who can see what a genuine attempt this was to forewarn people of a potentially deadly bacteria... May you all enjoy and remember the true reason for easter sunday...and God bless to all.. Goldenrose. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
I don't celebrate Easter. Now, it is time for me to go out and eat at any restaraunt I choose... if I should become e-coli infected, I will certainly let you know, or have someone in my stead do so. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." [This message has been edited by JesusChristPose (04-16-2006 12:02 PM).] |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
lol.......news flash.....E-Coli loose in The Alley....quarantine promptly. Phil, thanks for your concerns. Your concerns are valid and please don't take offense of those who just like to argue anything just to argue. Happy Easter. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
hmmmm...again.. GR... you come to this point in a thread?  discourse should be your aim -- dissention is a welcome sign -- don't shrink from a challenge -- why give your opposition the pleasure of shutting down your thread? I think -- what's really interesting about e-coli in beef is that if we just took the cattle off the corn for the last week of their lives and fed them the grass they are genetically evolved to chew -- the e-coli threat goes away. We always have to be careful of what we eat and the corporatizing of American farming is the culprit of many problems in our food and energy system. The real culprit here is corn. And fertilizer. When we started making fertilizer out of natural gas and other hydrocarbon based fuels -- we opened the door to cheap corn - and eliminated the need for rotating crops. So we grow tons and tons and tons and tons more corn than we can ever use -- so, we put it in everything -- and yep -- we feed it to the cows who used to be on the farm with the crops making fertilizer -- but we divided the crops from the cows and that's the problem... we put more fossil fuels into growing our crops than we do into driving our cars -- and our cornfed livestock develop other problems because we aren't feeding them what their DNA wants to eat. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Let's keep to a good discussion and leave off the personal attacks. Yes, this is the Alley; however, it is important to understand and accept that not everyone will agree with any given topic. As was said prior, dissent is important and crucial to any discussion, and long may it last. Grinch has very valid points. In the US, e.coli outbreaks that result in death from corporations and businesses are very rare, which makes for explosive media frenzies when they do occur: for their very rarity. Most cases of not just e.coli but the ever popular botulism come not from corporate or commercial enterprises, but from improper canning procedures, improper storage, improper sanitation, and improper handling within the home. Every so often you'll find a restaurant battling to preserve their reputation after a food handler or server comes to work sick with a tummy bug and prompty infects multiple patrons. Happened in The Chili Pepper (local restaurant) in Yuma not too long back, and they are still trying to regain their reputation. Granted they've redoubled their sanitation practices and mandated all personnel recertify their food handler licenses with instant termination for any who fail to comply. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: I don't know that I'd call 73k rare -- but I know 61 deaths is 61 too many. I've seen this kind of thinking too much in the corporate world in the engineering process as people talk about 'acceptable' levels of non-quality -- even though my experience is in discrete manufacturing process and not food production -- I know that it's the same kind of thought process. How many people is it accpetable to be electrocuted and burned to death by an electric blanket? Mass production of food has had tremendous benefits for the US and the world -- but with that solution we've created more problems. Putting cattle on feed lots creates unsanitary conditions... grain feeding causes pH imbalances in their intestines which give e-coli bacteria the breeding ground they need -- being grass fed eliminates this problem -- and feeding cattle grass also eliminates the Mad Cow Disease problem too -- since we're not feeding them each other ground up into little pellets. Grass -- not gas. What we learned a long time ago is you can't inspect quality into a product -- you have to develop processes that produce it every time. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Does that source break down where such infections and deaths not just occur but begin? If the 73000 are the direct result of negligence on the part of commercial or corporate enterprises, then yes, nail them to the barndoor, and I'll be there with my hammer. If, however, those 73000 started at home, where does personal responsibility come into play? Last thing I would ever want to see is some beaurocratic lab technician rummaging in my pantry, fridge and cabinets mandating in triplicate the very things I would hope to have the common sense to know. And if one showed up, funded by my taxes, I would need medical care to get my boot removed from their buttox. As Grinch said though, that bill is primarily about food labeling standards across the board, since some states differ in what is required. Here I was thinking the ordinances passed in the early-mid 90's was sufficient to stem the tide of all the dietary items claiming things which were not strictly true, like calling something 'sugar-free', meaning 'sucrose free', and using 3 or 4 other sweeteners, natural and artificial, as replacements. Or low-fat and not being below the required percentage of fat per serving. One thing I'd like to see changed is those pesky 'serving sizes'. Bag of Oreos, serving size 3 cookies. Who in blazes only eats 3 cookies aside from pathological control freaks? Me, I snag a stack of about 7 or 10...I generally don't count but measure the stack by handfuls. For cans of soda, some still call that 2 servings for a 12-oz can. Ok, so how many people out there drink exactly 6 fluid ounces and places the rest in the fridge for another drink 6 hours later? Least they could do with 'serving sizes' is at least pretend to be realistic. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
If it isn't in the meat to begin with Cat -- then it isn't a matter of how it's handled in the home. Or the restaraunt (most commonly a corporation). Or the swimming pool (possibly a corporation or a municipal facility). You can't inspect quality in. You have to build it in. Is it too much to ask to have corporations give a cow a last meal of grass? |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
If it's in the meat to begin with, cooking it will denature e.coli's structure. Not using a preparation surface for both lettuce and raw meat, although your article does give mention of raw unwashed lettuce being a carrier of e.coli. Washing ones hands after handling of any type of raw meat, sanitizing the work surface, and not reusing the same utensils without giving them a good cleaning first. Again I ask, where did those occurances happen? This isn't me being dispassionate, I really want to know. Where lies the responsibility? Corporation, processing plant, fast food outlet, restaurant, individual? If you are one who loves steak tare-tare and your burgers rare, surely you know the risks. Me, I like my burgers well-done and my steaks medium rare. Why the steaks and not burgers? E.coli on meats lives on the outer surface. For steaks, that's the outside surface which gets a healthy searing. For any ground meat, there's a lot more surface area for e.coli to attach, which is why it needs to be more thoroughly cooked. Despite what some think, e.coli is not unique to the post-industrial age. That bugger has been around for millenia, and I dare say the morbidity and mortality rates associated with it have been drastically reduced compared to any other decade in our history. Granted, I can't speak for other industrialized countries, or emerging or 'third-world' countries. I'm afraid it will never be eliminated so long as amateur chefs in their own homes refuse to follow extremely simple common-sensical food handling procedures. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
When cows grew up eating grass Cat -- it wasn't a problem. The bugger's been around -- but not in our food supply. This problem began after WWII when we started making fertilizer from fossil fuels and corn took over the plantation. When cows grew up eating grass -- they didn't spread Mad Cow Disease from eating feed that contained other cows ground up into pellets that had the disease. Proper handling of food is always required -- but do you want to buy meat that has e-coli in it -- or e-coli free meat? Do you want Mad Cow in your meat or not? |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli_O157:H7 Good introductory reading material. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
 I've gotta pig in da oven.  |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Rebel..Alicat..at last some discussion of a serious nature on this subject. I didnt WANT to close the thread..just felt it was going nowhere through lack of seriousness... If i may ask a question here...the 73,000 deaths that have occured through ecoli, is this figure BEFORE they passed the bill? ..I should think that if this is the figure before the bill was passed and things were working ok then....does that mean we can expect more cases now? Goldenrose. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Well, that's the number of infections. Deaths resulting from infection on average is 61 per year. But, HR 4167 http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-4167 hasn't passed the Senate yet. It's only been passed by the Congress. In order to become law it will have to be passed by the Senate and then signed by the President. This bill failed previously as HR 2699. It's just been re-introduced in 2005 by Congressman Mike Rogers (R) of Michigans 8th district http://www.mikerogers.house.gov/LegislativeIssues.aspx and is conspicuously absent from his touted legislative issues. What should be noted is that there is a major ideological conflict of State's Rights vs. Federal Authority that is at issue here. Once again, when given the choice, Republicans in the House favor big government power over the Federalism they proclaim. quote: http://www.afdo.org/afdo/HR4167.cfm http://www.neha.org/position_papers/positionHR4167.htm But, how about a bill that requires what every musician knows? (All Cows Eat Grass) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grass_fed_beef |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
The quote in the reply above is based upon politica opinion. Take it with a grain of salt. Once again, this entire thread is basically much ado about nothing, whether it was posted out of concern or political attack. Nothing posted here is going to keep me from eating out. And as far as my own cooking, I am always careful, and I didn't need this thread to make me any more careful. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Why should States be required to go to a bureaucratic agency to have permission to do what the Constitution of the United States permits them to do, which is to police powers for the safety and health and well-being of their own citizens? No amount of kitchen safety is going to remove the threat of Mad Cow Disease from your burger Opeth. Nor has it in the past. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Now what in blazes does mad cow disease have to do with e. coli. One is found in unhealthy cattle, the other found in every healthy mammal and avian in the world. Apples and pineapples have apples in their names, but that's about it. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Some states say products containing nuts should say on the label “may contain nuts”, some say “contains nuts” others say “could contain nuts” and some don’t care what it says. Some say the warning should be clearly displayed some that it has to be in a contrasting colour so it stands out and other states don’t mind as long as it’s there somewhere. Some States insist that a pictorial warning accompanies the text, clearly showing that the product contains nuts others say the picture should be red if the product contains nuts and green if it doesn’t. Most States don’t require any picture at all. All the above is hypothetical; the examples I’ve given aren’t real as far as I know but they do outline the problem that the bill is trying to address. Uniformity in food labelling will mean that everyone everywhere will get the same message in the same place that means the same thing. If Mr Smith buys a candy bar in New York and a similar product in California he should be able to read one uniform message that tells him whether the candy bar contains nuts, as the labelling laws stand now he has to know the relevant State law or forego the candy. Not only that think of National Candy Bars Inc. – they don’t care what it says as long as they don’t have to print and distribute 50 different wrappers for their candy bars – they aren’t looking to reduce food standards they’re looking to reduce costs. Let’s suppose the new bill simplifies the problem by saying that all products that contain nuts should have the words “ contains nuts” clearly displayed somewhere on the packaging in a red box with a white background. From the hypothetical example I’ve given above such a bill is going to supersede a lot of existing State laws, the question is whether the loss in state control is worth the benefits that uniformity brings. As far as E. coli and food hygiene goes I’ve already said the bill has zero impact on food hygiene inspections and E. coli it is concerned specifically with food labelling, tying one to the others is a herring of a reddish hue. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
from the already posted links above http://www.afdo.org/afdo/HR4167.cfm quote: and quote: http://www.neha.org/position_papers/positionHR4167.htm |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Cat If you look at the previously posted CDC page and the WIKI page that you posted you'll see that the specific strain of e-coli we're talking about, which is Escherichia coli O157:H7, grows in the intestines of healthy cattle -- that's the source in our food supply. It's not apples and oranges -- rather the difference between this strain and the multitude of other strains found in other mammals is more like comparing poodles and pit bulls. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
If i may ask a question here...the 73,000 deaths that have occured through ecoli, is this figure BEFORE they passed the bill? - Goldenrose Well, that's the number of infections. Deaths resulting from infection on average is 61 per year. - LR I should think that if this is the figure before the bill was passed and things were working ok then....does that mean we can expect more cases now? - Goldenrose HR 4167 hasn't passed the Senate yet. It's only been passed by the Congress. In order to become law it will have to be passed by the Senate and then signed by the President. - LR this thread was posted here because of the way the powers that be allowed it to get into the public domain - Goldenrose No, sir. I submit that this thread was posted here because of a lack of effort to verify the facts in an eagerness to blame the "powers that be". You are blaming a bill for deaths that hasn't even been passed yet. LR, I thank you for your thoroughness in presenting the actual facts in this matter. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I think they have that covered: IMMINENT HAZARD AUTHORITY. State may establish a requirement that would otherwise violate section 403A(a)(6) or subsection if the requirement is needed to address an imminent hazard to health that is likely to result in serious adverse health consequences or death. (Source H. R. 4167) quote: That too: Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit a State from conducting the State's notification, disclosure, or other dissemination of information, or to prohibit any action taken relating to a mandatory recall, civil administrative order, embargo, detention order, or court proceeding involving food adulteration (Source H. R. 4167) |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Reb, I wasn't talking apples and oranges about e.coli strains, but rather your introduction of mad cow disease into a discussion on e.coli and food labeling/safety legislation. Guess I should've stuck with my first thought, non sequitor, instead of the more common fruit descriptors. Looking over those posts, you only introduced 'mad cow' after I asked you where those morbidity/mortality incidences you referenced came from, since I was very curious to know. Your answer: mad cow burgers. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
nope... not a non-sequitor either Cat quote: It's always been a part of the topic -- just because nobody here, in this thread, brought it up until I did doesn't make it not a part of the issue. Deer I do my best.Grinch: Subparagraphs don't explain a law -- so that's a dangerous sport to get into. This bill would allow states to work around the FDA -- if the FDA gives them permission to. That's not Constitutional. If it manages to pass the Senate and get signed by the President -- there are now 37 states that are objecting to the language in this bill-- expect it to get bounced into the Supreme Court post haste. One thing in particular this bill will do is allow meat packers to package their products in carbon monoxide. What this does is allow the meat to LOOK fresh until the package is opened. Most states don't allow this to happen. The FDA reviewed this practice but hasn't 'studied' it -- therefore -- states won't be able to keep the current standard in place. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
Balladeer asked the right question, of which there is no answer to support the whole "careful what you eat" concept. LR, There is much more risk for me to get into my car and drive to buy that hamburger than there is to (well, you mixed issues and brought in madcow) for me to become sick from e-coli. It is all a matter of perspective. And I for one am sure that any company in the meat packing, producing, selling, cooking, etc., business would do its best to ensure the safety of our products. Afterall, if a particular company is so devious and careless to allow e-coli to spread, that company wouldn't be in business very long. Balladeer's last reply puts the question right back on the owner of this thread. Bravo. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Doing their best would be to raise the cows on grass. Or at the very least feed them grass the last week before slaughter. The cattle industry has chosen not to. So your self-assurance is misplaced. They've chosen instead to take the calculated risk that you will be killed on the way to buy the burger. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"Doing their best would be to raise the cows on grass. Or at the very least feed them grass the last week before slaughter. The cattle industry has chosen not to." ~ I thought this topic was about e-coli? However, the risk you believe is so dangerous to one's health is just that, your belief. Don't eat the meat, become a veggie. "So your self-assurance is misplaced." ~ That is your opinion. I don't agree with it at all. "They've chosen instead to take the calculated risk that you will be killed on the way to buy the burger." ~ That doesn't make any sense. If we go along that line of thought, I'd say to you, Your family member chose to take a calculated risk that you would be killed on the way to visit him or her. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: If you'd bothered to read what's been posted or the source material then you'd know that the e-coli threat from cattle can be virtually eliminated by feeding them grass. Unfortunately for you -- merely because you don't believe poison is bad for you won't keep it from adversely affecting your well being. The beef industry knows that grass-feeding virtually eliminates the e-coli risk -- but it's difficult to introduce into the process on feed lots. Translation -- they'd have to spend money to do it. But, it's ok.... from now on -- you can hi-pot test all your own appliances since you're into kitchen safety. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"If you'd bothered to read what's been posted or the source material then you'd know that the e-coli threat from cattle can be virtually eliminated by feeding them grass." LOL... if I bothered to read opionated unproven propsganda, which I won't read. So save it for the easily duped. "Unfortunately for you -- merely because you don't believe poison is bad for you won't keep it from adversely affecting your well being." ~ I guess I shouldn't breathe when I drive down the street because I am definitely breathing in poison. I guess I shouldn't drink tap water, we all know how much poison is in that. Do you eat potato chips or candy or drink soda? If so, you have to know about all of the poison in those items too, right? "The beef industry knows that grass-feeding virtually eliminates the e-coli risk -- but it's difficult to introduce into the process on feed lots. Translation -- they'd have to spend money to do it." ~ Who says they know? Who says that is true? A study, completed by a certain group have proven that so, yes? "But, it's ok.... from now on -- you can hi-pot test all your own appliances since you're into kitchen safety." ~ LOL... hi-pot test kitchen appliances? Critical Thinking 101? Not. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: If this is the standard you apply to proofreading your own posts that explains it. quote: Actually -- you're quite mistaken. A hi-pot test (a high potential test) is the final extremely high-voltage test administered to your kitchen appliances (and other household electronic devices) to ensure there are no shorts or even potential shorts where components may be too closely placed. It is analagous to your acceptance of defective beef at your own risk. You should apply the same standard, just to be fair, to all your consumer purchases rather than hold manufacturers responsible for what they produce. quote: Yes, people who study are actually able to learn things. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Low blows are thrown when an opponent is losing. That's what I see happening here so often when someone doesn't have the resources to back up their argument -- instead of arguing with convincing facts, someone spits out an insult. [This message has been edited by iliana (04-19-2006 12:49 AM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Well. Guess who ain't coming to dinner?  Sheesh, guys. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Bukowski?  |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
when I told my sisters that you had written me a letter and signed your name with blood they just cracked up she said. oh, I said, I'm glad they liked it. ---Bukowski 8-26-74 * * *  * * *  |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"Low blows are thrown when an opponent is losing. That's what I see happening here so often when someone doesn't have the resources to back up their argument -- instead of arguing with convincing facts, someone spits out an insult." ~ Care to name names? "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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