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Movement in the US
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Movement in the US |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296
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Over the years, I'm becoming more and more aware of a very powerful movement in the U.S. I don't know what this movement calls itself, (Bowel, if you ask me)...hehe but they are slowly taking the Christmas out of Christmas. Every year, the traditional Christmas Carols are being taken away, and, I'm told I must say Holiday. I'm livid about this...yanno, America means Freedom of speach and beliefs...and we always welcome any religion/race who wishes to practice they're beliefs...but in the same, don't take mine away from me, and/or repromand me or correct me b/c I've said Christmas instead of Holiday!!! Just recently I was listening to a radio broadcast about this very subject and a woman phoned in and said the following...."if in fact, the American people would all stick together and simply purchase no thing for Christmas presents, you'd soon see this movement abolished! The radio announcer totally agreed, adding, we Americans sit idolly by and allow these people to gain power and control...we rely on everyone else but ourselves to vocalize and make decissions for us. I agree... We can blame the governement, and all these movements who have become not only powerful, but financially funded by some very influencial people. A perfect example of what happened under Hitler's reign...oft I've wondering why those hundreds of thousands of people allowed themselves to be destroyed? When they could have fought back. We're not fighting back, all it seems we do is complain...about what's happening, but do not take a stand? I'd like to see every church in the country discuss this situation, and next year, do just that, spend Christmas with family and stop purchasing Christmas Gifts for the simple fact of displaying a crucial statement...stop taking our rights away. I for one am very tired of this...I don't care what your race/religion or belief is, but don't take mine away...you want to say Holiday, do so...you don't want to listen to the old fashioned Christmas Carols, turn it off...but don't take them away from me. Gosh, this is getting so darn unfair and rediculous, not to mention, that we're all allowing this to happen? Christmas is "our" tradition...you talk and think as you wish...but don't take my tradition away... Anyway, Christmas has become way to commercialized, and it's high time people celebrate Christmas for what it was meant to be...the birth of Jesus. Not a spending spree.... Any comments? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Lee? I'm confused. Who are "these people"? I'm afraid that using that term, followed up by an analogy of Hitler's reign, and people "allowing themselves" to be destroyed might be misconstrued as an anti-semitic statement. Which I'm sure wasn't your intent...um, right? |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Correct...what I'm trying to relate to is the fact that if we don't fight back, we're going to continue loosing our rights....and refrenced the Holicast as an example of what happens when people don't fight back. I've always pondered the fact that those poor people allowed themselves to be herded to their deaths...why didn't they fight back? I don't know who these people are in this movement pertaining to Christmas, but they were also instrumental in taking the Pledge Allegiance out of Schools. This is being slid in under our eyes, and we're not standing up against this. Why doesn't anyone counter suit? Why are we just sitting around allowing this to happen. Kids are not allowed to sing old fashioned Christmas Carols in school anymore????? They are even telling radio, news and television that they can no longer say Christmas Tree, it must now be referred to as a HOliday Tree? What in the world is going on here, and why aren't we sticking together and fighting for "OUR" rights? I'm trying to ignite a spark under the butts of all of us...trying to get people to talk about it, in hopes that they start realizing the seriousness of this.... Many radio stations are only allowed to play Frosty the Snowman type music instead of Oh, Holy Night, Joy to the World, Silent at Night, etc??????? This is all coming about b/c of the Christ in Christmas, Jesus, God, Dear Savior's Birth, etc in Christmas carols. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Thank you Lee. I know you are a lovely, intelligent woman with a gracious and understanding heart, and I worried that you might be misunderstood by someone who didn't know that. I confess it's hard for me to get worked about this though, knowing the history of Christmas, it was once celebrated as a pagan holiday, and many would maintain that it still is. My brother, a Christian, was a strict interpreter of scripture, and he refused to acknowledge the day at all, as he believed there was no historical nor scriptural proof that Jesus was born on December 25. That one got him kicked out of his church, and he was relieved of his title as an Elder in that same church. He was a stickler for details, he was. Myself? It doesn't bother me. I used that, and just about every other holiday to educate my children regarding other beliefs as well as Christian practices. Although my son is now a self-proclaimed atheist, when he was five he insisted he was Jewish. So? Shrug, I got him a menorrah. (Forgive me if I spelled that wrong.) Next year he might be a member of Hare Krishna for all I know, but I do know we'll talk about it.  I happen to recognize Winter Solstice as a holy day, but I enjoy Christmas as well. And I, like you, tend to be offended by the commercialism of it all--but I expect this year will be different. Nothing like a catastrophe to learn to find joy outside of the wrapping paper.  Merry Christmas, Lee.  I'll say that to you, because I know it's your preference. And when I learn the preference of others, I wish them the happy holiday of their given belief as well. I'm easy that way. peace and love to you m'friend |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
understand your feedback, but the point I'm trying to make is this...anyone can come to the US and practice they're religion...and I respect those that don't believe...those that deem Christmas as pagan...but what about the thousands of people that do believe Christ was born on that day, and the hords of old fashioned beautiful Christmas songs....???? AND worship as such? Its what I grew up with, my heritage, my belief?????? How can they do this....????? and yanno, you shouldn't "have" to be consciencious about how you wish me a joyous holiday...that shouldn't be first and foremost, you should very comfortably be allowed to say it how you believe it, not b/c it's my prefrence...and that is how it should be for us.... I grew up on those beautiful Carols, matter of fact, it's part of what made my Christmas...it was a tradition, to turn them on every year as we baked cookies, did cards, decorated or had dinner, open houses, etc. What I'm trying to say, is, it's time this stops, I really believe this polically correct business has gone way beyond the scope of reality. Sheesh???? |
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Mistletoe Angel 
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Absolutely, Lee. Look, there's nothing wrong with giving to your family or loved ones over the holiday season. But I also feel the most genuine meaning of Christmas is being spoiled by the commerical influence; the unconditional virtues of giving and sharing, (which truly ought to be endorsed routinely), Peace on Earth, and the birth of Hope. If anything, the best way to celebrate Christmas and the holiday season is simply to get involved in your community. Volunteer at your local rescue mission and help feed the less fortunate, volunteer for the Adopt-A-Family program and provide impoverished families presents and a dinner to make their Christmas day special, help pack and distribute food boxes to needy individuals and families, volunteer at the Santa Shop, meet up with two to five friends of yours, call your local Family Rescue Ministry hotline, and set up a mentor session, anything of these sorts is wonderful. Or, if your schedule may indeed be flooded out, simply give a monetary gift to a local shelter. Remember what is said in the Holy Book: * "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers, your relatives or your rich neighbors;if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind and you will be blessed. Although they can not repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous." (Luke 14:12-14) * This is the best way anyone can fight back here in my opinion; teach our children all that Christmas and the holiday season is all about and preach the message ourselves through our philanthropic actions. Love, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I don't know where you live, Lee, but no one around here has stopped me from decorating Christmas trees or listening to the music of my choice. Radio stations? They have the same freedoms I have and can choose to play what they want. And it IS a choice for each and every station, as there certainly aren't any laws or regulations preventing any business from celebrating their holiday of choice. More importantly, there's no law or regulation preventing them from NOT celebrating as they wish, too. Schools? I didn't send my kids to school learn the Pledge of Allegiance or sing old fashioned Christmas carols. And I sure as hell didn't send them to school so that someone else could teach them who and how to worship. There's certainly a place for religion in America, but that place is the home, church, and synagogue. Teach your children as you wish, but please be kind enough to leave my kids the hell alone. Freedom of religion does not include the right to push, shove, or wheedle your beliefs into the lives of others. It is a defensive shield designed to protect your rights, not a weapon to bludgeon the rights of everyone who doesn't agree with you. You can say Merry Christmas as much as you want, Lee, string lights on every tree you own, and sing any song in your home or church that makes you happy. Shouldn't that be enough? p.s. Merry Christmas! |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
I find Evanglicalism's reaction to the secularization of Christmas perplexing. Perhaps a few need to re-read the bumper stickers and friendship bracelets out there and ask themselves "What would Jesus do?" Would he boycott stores? Lobby congress? Run public service anouncements on TV? Perhaps the starting point in this discussion ought to be this. What does Christmas mean? Jim |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
No guys, I believe you are misunderstanding where I'm coming from...so sorry if I offended anyone I've been told at work, I am not allowed to say Christmas...I must say Holiday. Gwad Ron, I'm not trying to force my beliefs down anyone's throat...geeze louise????? But what is wrong with me exercising my rights? What is the big deal with taking the Pledge of Allegiance out of school? What is wrong with having our kids recite something that says, one nation under God????? Why are they now trying to make everyone say Holiday Tree? And your wrong, it is now I believe against the law for any school to have a Christmas Play with religious songs in it. And there are a lot of radio stations afraid to play those songs for fear of controversy. I mean, believe what you wish, but in the same, allow me my beliefs to. What I'm saying is if....people would get together and stop buying Christmas Gifts boy oh boy, would you see things change but quick. Wouldn't that be a kicker, if Christmas sales would drop by more then half because people got sick and tired of this politically correct garbage and stick together and just not buy. I cannot believe there is no one here sensitive to this issue. I tell you true, things would change darn quick and if I could start a movement against our beliefs. What would Jesus do? Well, he actually got a little testy when they were selling things in His Father's Temple. And no, actually I'd prefer to keep this thread as is.... and I'm certainly not one to stuff my beliefs down anyone's throat...but in the same Ron, it is this movement that are slowly dwindling the rights of others away. And Ron, I'd never force my opinion/beliefs on your kids....why would you say that? I believe more then not, I'd be respectful of their beliefs and yours as a parent, but in the same, why couldn't you mine? [This message has been edited by LeeJ (12-05-2005 02:05 PM).] |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
Lee... I am substituting regularly and I have not been in any school yet that doesn't say the pledge... nor any that doesn't sing Christmas carols or celebrate any of the other special days with subject matter being taught also in the reading or language arts...they are being taught to allow others their beliefs and to share in the knowledge of each. But if they chose not to participate in the singing or of the spoken word that is also ok. Many of the schools are multicutural... anyway I haven't even heard any songs being banned from my radio stations..and if I so choose not to listen I would turn the channel..there are some that get on my nerves but not because of their meanings..just the repetition and most are not the religious ones. Yes, I have heard about the word Holiday being used..so as to be all inclusive at the shopping malls. You will still see and hear carolers there and see the decorations of all kinds. Just thought I would let you know that.. M |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
quote: True, but Lord & Taylor is not the Lord's house. And what Christmas is IS important to the discussion. You are criticizing others for quashing the true meaning of Christmas ... so tell me ... what is Christmas' true meaning? Once we know that, I suspect we will know, as Christians, the best way to preserve that meaning from secularist attacks. Jim |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Look, I agree there are some consciences that are attempting to influence a de-secularization of Christmas. I don't deny there are some who are making such efforts and indeed I passionately disagree with their intens. I do also believe though that the concern is just blown out of proportion quite a bit and is being exaggerated, as some of the earlier comments suggest that nothing has stopped others from singing Christmas carols or hang up decorations anywhere. Here in what is often referred to as the "Godless Northwest" in that the Northwest is the area of the country where people least go to church, most houses have their lights up and no one ever threatens us to take them down. And no one has certainly threatened me to remove my Christmas images from my blog. It is my personal opinion that there is no particular "group" trying to change the meaning of Christmas; it's simply an attitude, a behavior that some who just can't appreciate the holiday have. I believe we do have to be aware about the possibilities without a doubt, but a unanimous majority of the population absolutely believes in Christmas to the fullest, and it should be understood that in terms of vox populi, this attitude will never prevail and strip us of this day's true meaning. Again, I believe the best, most symbolic way to fight back against anyone who may have this attitude is simply to get involved and celebrate what you believe in, get involved with Christmas to the fullest. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Lee said, "America means Freedom of speach and beliefs" It does! You can exercise that right, and most do if they choose to. No one could ever make me do one thing I don't wish to do ever! To be honest - I celebrate every single festivity I can, and enjoy the company of the people who are celebrating it to the maximum! That is what I love about this planet - the diversity available to us to enjoy (or not) depending on your preference. Merry Christmas, Happy Winter Solstice, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa, and Happy anything else I forgot It is our choice to partake or not, so don't listen to the current propaganda (it comes up every single year,) and still Christmas goes on. I do however agree with Ron, Lord help anyone who trys to "push" their beliefs on me. Religion/non-religion should always begin at home where it is supported by the love of family not fiends. Regardless of anything, I always love the fact that it is the season to be jolly. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: That's where your employer's rights have to supersede your own, Lee. While you're on the job, you have to do things his way. When you leave the job, either to go home at the end of your shift or because you got fed up and quit, you can go right back to doing it your own way. quote: Why not "one nation under many Gods" then? Or "one nation under Serenity's Goddess" instead? Can't you see how the language you find perfectly acceptable is, in truth, a reflection of your own beliefs? Language is a powerful tool, Lee. By demanding language that supports your personal beliefs, to the exclusion of others, you are subtly (if no doubt unintentionally) trying to control how everyone thinks. And the same argument applies to religious songs, plays and other ceremonies in the school system. It is NOT the role of the school to teach religion, and certainly not just ONE religion to the exclusion of all others. I think it is perfectly fine to protest the secularization of Christmas within the commercial sector. If you don't like a radio station's choice, tune to another one. If you don't like it when Wal-Mart says Happy Holidays, stop going to Wal-Mart. Your goal, however, should only be to avoid what you don't like, NOT to change the way others act or believe. If your protest is motivated only by a desire to change others, it is nothing but coercion and you are doing exactly what you claim you aren't doing. quote: The problem I have with that, Maureen, is that a seven-year-old should never be put in a position where their only choices are to conform or risk being ostracized by their peers. Children can be incredibly mean to those who are different, and yet it is those very differences we are trying to protect. I think we put too much pressure on kids when we ask them to make adult decisions. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
"one nation under Serenity's Goddess" gets my vote!  |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
"The problem I have with that, Maureen, is that a seven-year-old should never be put in a position where their only choices are to conform or risk being ostracized by their peers. Children can be incredibly mean to those who are different, and yet it is those very differences we are trying to protect. I think we put too much pressure on kids when we ask them to make adult decisions" Those in bold are your words, Ron, not mine ... the decisions aren't pressured, in fact I am sure they don't even think of them as decisions. They do if they want to or don't if they don't wish to. The children in our area are from all over the world....The district I am working in teaches tolerance on a daily basis in their reading lessons, in the guidance sessions, in social studies...in their art and music (a far cry from how it was when I taught 30 years ago or when we were brought up) They aren't teased or ostracized by anyone...in fact at the young ages they are more acceptable of their differences and are taught to embrace them... I am very impressed by the two schools that I work in the most, and the volunteerism of the parents. It is a county wide program and I am amazed at times, of how well they get along and help one another. I am sure it is not an exception and that there are many other school systems like this. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
This thread can really make one think in many different ways. I, too, lament, the assassination of Christmas. I also see some of Ron's and others points that consideration must also be shown to other groups and their ways of thinking. I would like to ramble on a few points, even to the point where I am interested in seeing where my thought will take me! I think that part of it is that many of us miss "the old days". When I was growing up there were Christmas trees all over town. Carolers went from door to door singing Christmas songs and hymns. It's A Wonderful Life, A Christmas Carol and Miracle on 34th Street were shown over and over on tv. Everywhere was Christmas and everyone was greeted with Merry Christmas! Of course, to be fair, at that same time no one had problems with "under God" being said in the Pledge of Allegiance, either. There was no censorship of Christmas at all. I confess I miss those times and I confess that i gave no thoughts to anyone's rights being trampled by such Christmas celebrations. i suppose there must have bee some of that. What happened when carolers sang in front of a Jewish person's home, for example? I'm sure it happened. Did the Jews get outraged? Scream "Go away!!" or complain to the ACLU? I certainly never heard of it happening. Or is it possible they smiled and accepted it in the spirit in which it was given? I don't know. Perhaps it created hard feelings in some who were either non-Christian or non-religious or perhaps people were more tolerant then and didn't let it bother them and didn't have lawyers standing by to represent them in lawsuits. I still miss those days. " I didn't send my kids to school learn the Pledge of Allegiance or sing old fashioned Christmas carols." - Ron. I would be interested in knowing why you DID send your kids to school.....or anyone, for that matter. I've heard it said many times that morality and behavior are the responsibility of the parents. I don't disagree with that. I've also heard that the purpose of the schools is to teach what the students need to succeed in life. Ok by me but for me it is so much more than that. The school is the first place a child goes to to participate in society. Their circles of interaction up to that point have been with parents, relatives or perhaps neighbors.....but, in school they are finally in a situation where they interact with other small beings their own age. That is their first introduction to society as we know it. They learn, or discover, how to act around others, how to treat others, how others think about things. They begin to learn about life outside of their small sphere of existence. They learn that they want to be liked and they learn how to accomplish that. They finally begin to learn about the world. Is this the purpose of the schools? No...it is the essential by-product of our school system. Do mothers cry when little Billy finally goes off to school because they are afraid he won't pass the tests? No, it's because he will be in a room with the other kids his age, and without her to guide or protect him, right? I think that's why parents send kids to school - to learn about life. You don't send them there to learn the pledge of Allegiance, Ron? I claim that you do.....that and everything else that makes up our world. So what do they learn as time goes on? They learn that the United States was founded on the belief of God, that our money says "In God We Trust" and that they will no longer be allowed to say "under God" when reciting it. They watch Christmas being celebrated in their homes, in movies, on television....and that they are not allowed to say "Merry Christmas" to a friend in school and no references to Christmas be allowed to be sung during the holidays. You didn't send them to school to sing old fashioned Christmas carols, Ron? No, you didn't but you did for them to try to understand why they are not allowed to. That's part of our world. Reasons given to them is consideration of others. Since not all share in those beliefs or feelings, no one is allowed to express them. They don't understand why those who do can't express their feelings and those who don't can simply ignore them or choose not to participate. It had been that way for generations with no discernable effects so what has changed? No need to stop with Christmas then. Valentine's Day is fashioned after Saint Valentin. Prohibit the exchange of valentine cards. Certainly do not allow any Easter decorations for obvious reason. Halloween? Unfair to the witches....no school decorations there then. Does the thought of a grade school with no decorations for these holidays appeal to you? We are headed there. I can understand the consideration of others philosophy but how far should it go? At the 2000 US concensus 76% of the population were Christian, 1.3% were Jewish and all others made up the rest. Should 3/4 of the population be throttled in their public expressions not to offend the other 1/4? One can argue that if something offends ANYONE it should not be allowed but the majority must count for something, shouldn't it?...and someone is always going to be offended over anything at all. The US Post Office has just announced that it will produce no religious Christmas stamps this year so as not to offend anyone. How ridiculous is that? No one is FORCING beliefs on anyone. Christians are simply expressing their beliefs, which happen to be the same beliefs that founded this country. Why can't non-believers just accept it for what it is? I've heard of no Christians protesting the display of the Menorah or any Kwanzaa celebrations. One can say "Why should we have to accept it or be confronted with it?" Yet these people will impose their restrictions on Christians. As Ron says, "You can say Merry Christmas as much as you want, Lee, string lights on every tree you own, and sing any song in your home or church that makes you happy. Shouldn't that be enough?" No, sir, that shouldn't be enough. I want to lick a Christmas stamp! As I said when beginning this response, I guess I'm just an old fuddy-duddy wishing for the old days when people did not get offended so easily, when there was not a lawyer behind every tree, ready to advise them how offended they should feel, when children were not psychologically damaged at hearing the others say 'Under god" while reciting the Pledge, when people were tolerant of the beliefs of others and not threatened by them and when I could hear my son's school choir sing a fairly off-key presentation of Bing's White Christmas. So shoot me... End of ramble  |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Just bring back Oliver Cromwell and be done with it. Which reminds me...when they cut off his head, did they stick an apple in his mouth? Sure he made things very exciting for a while, but he was a dreadful boar.  |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Well Michael some things never change as I have two school Christmas concerts to attend this week. I am sure we will be hearing Bing's White Christmas being sung off-key by children, who have absolutely no idea what all this latest hubbub is about, until an adult enlightens them. Boy we grow-ups are sure party poopers aren't we?For what it is worth though, I sure miss the good old days myself, when just plain old good will was done to our fellowman at this time of year no matter what their status or faith. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
The following is an excerpt from personal correspondence to a Pipfriend, and I quote it with my apologies, but it sums up my mood so precisely, I decided to bore you all: " just got back from the store from buying cigs, and I am so enamored of the Dutch now, I wore a Santa hat with white braids dangling from it, with a white lace bra peeking out of a red tank top, with the word, "HO?" painted on it, all perfectly accessorized by a black leather tackled belt, black jeans, and boots with the Santa buckle. Yeah, I got their attention. I told the guy, "Admit it--you are a little happier just looking at me!" He agreed. (and trust me, I ain't braggin' that I looked GOOD--I just sorta stood out) He raised an eyebrow while reading my shirt though. So I glared at him and said, "Don we now our gay apparel?" He raised the other eyebrow while I paid him. "Fa-la-la" He put the money in the drawer "la-la-la" He counted my change "la-la-la-la!" *glare* grin... It's all in the attitude methinks. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
LOLOL! Ah, the visuals.... Sure makes me want to feel merry and jump for Joy |
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latearrival Member Ascendant
since 2003-03-21
Posts 5499Florida |
As I sit here reading this thread I am looking at a huge, beautifully decorated Christmas tree. There are also wreaths on the walls, and a Santa figure on the front counter. LOL ~~ I wondered if the new director would stop this practice. I have been here almost sixteen years and we have always had a tree. A lot of little PC changes have been made or suggested over the years, Bibles were not allowed in the dorms but we have them if any one requests one. I too have been hearing the protest about changing from “Merry Christmas” to “Happy Holidays”. I think it ironic that we have such a gung ho President who has been backed by the T.V. evangelist and other religious groups and who advocates so many “Faith Based projects”, that we have the other side fighting for all their worth to eliminate the holiday not only in the schools but in any government place, yet here I sit looking at this Hugh tree. I have no preference. But I see the irony in it all. I understand Jesus was not born on December 25th, but it is now tradition so it does not bother me. Happy what ever to all. martyjo |
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latearrival Member Ascendant
since 2003-03-21
Posts 5499Florida |
Whoops. I forgot to mention this is basically a federal building. Although Embry Riddle Aeronautical University own and run it, it is The Federal Aviation Administration who we are contracted to. So actually it is, while they are here, a federal building. And still a huge decorated tree with an angel on top is standing in front of me. I also know how kids can be cruel about almost anything. If not, they would not be so self conscious about the clothes they wear to school and so many would not be so concerned about wearing such expensive things as the “right clothes” or the “right sneakers”. I always insisted my children be themselves and yet my youngest daughter felt the pull of wanting to please her peers and dress their way. Where as I, because I was a little defensive tended to try and be an individual and painted my eyeglasses with red nail polish way back in the forties. Added little charms around the neck of my cousin’s Navy sweater and was different once again. Because it was the only sweater I had and even thought it was too warm I wore it proudly. I embroidered in between the pleats in my gym shorts because they were not the regulation type so I made them stand out more. I did not realize why I was doing all these minor things but as I grew up I did reconize what I had attempted to do. I was shy and this was the only way anyone even knew I was around. I did not want to look too poor to have the things others did so I made it look like I was just different. As a youngster I had a hard time, as I was a little WASP in a completely Polish, Irish and Italian Catholic neighborhood. I did not fit in. My old friend Marion was my best friend and she as a Polish Catholic never mentioned the difference as the others did. I was always taunted and asked to say my “prayers” as I did not know the standard Catholic prayers. Then on top of that I was of German heritage. I sure did have a time. But even then I would say, I am German and Protestant and I am proud. The very word ~- Protestant, means to protest for freedom to believe as we want to. Best to all, marty jo |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
I'd like to say, many thanks to you all for your input on this thread...and 2nd... I suppose I should have been more clear, sorry folks....I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion...or belief...I believe diversity makes our nation go round...what I'm trying to do is "preserve" what we already have and what has exsisted in the US for years....and no matter who disagrees with me, I still love ya all and respect your beliefs...nor would I want to try and change them...or bully you into believing what I believe. I heard this subject talked about on the radio the other day....and have been silently observing these rights slowly being taken away even before the radio broadcast. There are some schools that no longer allow the Pledge of Allegiance to be said, and we all know, The Lord's Prayer is out...and there are radio stations that will play Christmas songs, hence, Frosty the Snowman, Jingle Bells, but deviate from playing the old Christmas Carols such as Silent Night, etc, that pertain to any Godliness. And I do believe we are one nation under God, not just mine, but the God of every religion, race and Creed. I no longer go to church, for my own personal reasons, but, this movement is gaining strength. They are and have made it necessary to remove the 10 commandments from Court Houses. As far as my job is concerned, Ron, I disagree with you, again, if we are supposed to be diverse, then, I should be allowed to refrence the holiday as I please, according to my own personal culture, conditioning and upbringing. But, apparently, when I say Merry Christmas, this offends some people. This is supposed to be wrong, and I can turn your comment around and say, I'm offended, when I am corrected and told that I must say Holiday? What about my rights? Respect mine, as well. It works both ways, yanno? or certainly should? If we are supposed to be a diverse nation, then, why comply and take what was there and worked for me and many others for so many years, away...isn't that an infringement on my belief, and the belief of many others? What harm does it do to say Christmas...if and here's an example, if when Muslims go into get their photos taken for their drivers licences and they do not have to take off their religious head scarfs, ohhh, I'm at a loss for the name of their black apparal they wear, someone help me out please, but isn't that the same thing? Diversity should apply to everyone, and I say, if you don't want to listen to the old fashioned Christmas Carols then turn them off...Ron, it's a two way street....all I'm trying to do is preserve what I've been raised to believe. And if my workplace doesn't like Merry Christmas, tough...it's a word for Goodness sake...but my belief...yanno? I mean after all, some like vanilla ice cream, some like chocolate ice cream, right? And it's my right to express...I respect you for liking Chocolate, why can't people respect my vanilla ice cream? So, for every argument you have, I can turn it around and argue the same....fair is fair, Ron, right? You turn off your radio or turn the channel... Anyone can come into this country and their beliefs are respected...but in the same, ours should, as well. Next they'll be taking the "In God we Trust" off our currancy. And believe me, they will do it, and the other point I'm trying to make is people sit back asleep, unaware, in their protective world in denial and allow it to happen, instead of turning the table around on these people. Fair is Fair. Would it then be politically correct, to have diverse currancy, or diverse schools or how bout diverse road signs, in all different languages...or diverse menus in a resturant? I suppose what I'm trying to say, is, how far does this go. Adding, my girlfriends grand-daughter is overwhelmed because she now has to learn how to count to a hundrend in Spanish????? But that's another thread? This entire business of being politically correct is going way to far...I think? I mean, in one way it's good, but there is always someone who carries things way beyond the norm. For goodness sake, if God offends anyone, then don't read it, don't say it, don't pray, whatever...but don't take my God away from me because it offends you, yanno? And my statement about getting together and not purchasing Christmas Gifts to make a statement, was a statement in itself. If our stores lost a considerable amount of money over Christmas, my point was, they'd soon oust all and any negates toward these movements to abolish prayer, songs, & God. Money talks...and Christmas has always been they're biggest time of the year, regarding killer sales. So Ron, I'm not trying to change your thoughts, your beliefs, or anyones for that matter...I'm fighting to preserve mine, to keep them sactioned and alive, as well. Yes, there are still Christain Radio Stations that play the old fashioned Christmas songs..., but others are getting away from such, due to not wanting any trouble from this movememt to abolish God or Christ or the Christ out of Christmas Trees, (and by the way, there are some people that are actually saying Holiday Trees to appease these people)..that is not diverse, or freedom of Religion. And although some schools are still practicing these rights, all it takes is one parent to complain, and vocalize a law suit and watch how quickly they win? And so, I really do hope you all don't think I'm trying to be a vigulante here and force my beliefs down your throats, I'm not. But would be a perfect world for me, is to preserve the same respect and regard for my feelings and beliefs... and yes, I'm a party hearty kinda gal to, love it, and the festivities, and even open to party with any other religion who chooses to invite me into their home to share...and yes, religion by all means is a sacred thing which should be practiced at home Sharon, I agree whole heartidly...and low to anyone who tries to push their beliefs down my throat, I'm like a bear with a sawed off paw if that happens, but in the same, I suppose what I'm saying is, if we're supposed to be a diverse nation, then why oh why are they taking these things away from those of us who do believe. How can that be allowed, as well? Just look at some of these replys and how offended some of you were b/c I stated my opinion? Because you thought, I was trying to take your rights away or bully my beliefs?...I'm not in the least, I started this thread b/c I'm asking for the same respect for my culture, yanno. Don't take these things away from me, or my children's children. I do string lights, and sing out joyously in celebration, joining in with other religious Holiday Beliefs, as I am diverse and curious to learn...but PLEASE....don't make me say Holiday, or take God from my culture...or those lovely Christmas Carols that I've sung since a child, b/c they contain some refrence to God/Jesus, yanno? I wanted my son and want my grand-daughter to be able to pray the Lords Prayer and say the Pledge of Allegiance in School, b/c it is part of my culture. I believe, and this is simply my belief...that a little guidence in morals, and belief can be a good thing, and we shouldn't have to fear rejection or controversy b/c we believe this way? Now, would anyone like to join hands and sing "Oh Little Town of Bethlehem"? I hope I've made myself clearer...I started this thread out of concern for the Christains of the US, as I believe they should be allowed they're rights as well. And I apologize if I've insulted anyone. and Karen...big hugs to you to, & very many thanks to you Hugs to ya'all for your participation |
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latearrival Member Ascendant
since 2003-03-21
Posts 5499Florida |
Lee I think you have made yourself very clear. And you are correct. I don’t think any one is really disagreeing with you. We are all just saying it differently and wish changes could be made slowly and fairly. One group should never be pushed aside for the needs and wants of another. How far does it have to go? I sometimes wear a diversity pin and people ask me if it depicts my children? So I guess most people are just not aware. The pin has little children on it but some are white and some are black and one is wheels for a wheel chair. So how much attention are they paying? I agree we are all supposed to be worshiping one God. At least that is what I have been taught. What we as different cultures have done to make it so perverse is strange. How could religions that have started out to be so people friendly become so one minded? I don’t have the answers. And I know what you mean by governments slowly taking away privileges. We did stand by and watch what happened to other countries and did nothing until it was too late. Nor did the citizens of those countries do anoything until it was too late. They seemed to just let it happen. So we do have to be aware and not let it happen here. I guess we have to come to understand each other more. We all seem to fear that which we know little about so it behooves us to learn as much as we can. I try and I do want to learn and understand other cultures. It just seems strange that whenever there is war religion seems to be behind it. Why? That is a question to which I will never find the answer. Best to you all and thank you for this for this thread.martyjo |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
darlin MartyJo, thank you for understanding...I don't believe any religion is people friendly, I think they all own they're own human changes, from the beginning of time...I don't believe any human being on the face of this earth, ever knew it all, or translated it all perfectly, if that were true, there wouldn't be so so many questions....but, that is my own personal belief, of which I'm certainly not trying to jam down anyone else's throat...I don't believe religion is nearly as important as faith...allowance and peace...first within oneself, then whirling out and around others...allowance is a key...as well as, living one's life by example, as a good citizen of the community as a whole. Thanks MartyJo thanks a bunch.... [This message has been edited by LeeJ (12-06-2005 10:56 AM).] |
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latearrival Member Ascendant
since 2003-03-21
Posts 5499Florida |
Lee, I tend to agree with you.I told you all I took an elderly friend to her Catholic church every sunday for over a year because it was important to her. It does not matter where I check in with God. He is supposed to be within us. I would still be taking her but for Jackie's accident. She had to find another to take her. Now the poor lady is not working. She worked until the last day of october and is 88 years old. Although she thinks no one knows that.LOL best to you Lee, martyjo |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Lest you think I have total lack of sympathy for your viewpoint Lee, I'll tell you a different story. I used to work for the state, in the pharmacy services section of DHHR. (Yeah, I know, and my sister, twist, worked for food and drug control at the same time, and YES, we understood how funny that was  *grin*)But it was my habit to put the book I was reading on my desk, along with lunch if I'd brought it that day. One day my chosen book happened to be the Bible. I had to remove the Bible. I was incredulous to learn that it was against the rules that I had um, "read" and signed stating that I understood, the day that I was hired. But that is the law, and oh I was furious at first too. (I also couldn't wear campaign buttons or endorse a candidate by having a sign on my front lawn either.) But yanno? I understood the reasoning when my boss took me to lunch and explained. I understood completely the separation of church and state issue. But the campaign buttons? Why...who knew there was cronyism in Louisiana politics?  hugs back atcha LeeJ! |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Karen!!!! CRONYISM IN POLITICS????? NAHHHHHHHHH! WAIT...YOU mean like wall street and corporate america?  |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: You can, Lee. It's still entirely your choice and, indeed, if you are to have the courage of your convictions, I would recommend doing exactly that. Just be willing to accept the consequences, because you are NOT the only one with the right to do what they feel is best for them. I suspect your employer will exercise his right to run HIS business the way he wants. Don't confuse diversity with anarchy. When you make the sacrifices your employer has made, and accept the risks he takes every day, then you get to call the shots. You can even, if you wish, tell all your employees to never, ever use the word holiday again because it offends you. Of course, it will still be up to them whether they are willing to accept your dictates or find themselves another job. quote: How 'bout 'cause it's the right thing to do, Lee? Slavery worked for a good many people for a good many years, but that didn't mean it should be continued. Forcing people to sit in the back of the bus worked for even longer, but that never made it right. You may think this is an off-the-wall analogy, Lee, but what you're really arguing is that the desires of the majority should be imposed on the minority, and sorry, but that's the same argument I heard through most of the Sixties, too. quote: Lee, there are many, many, many radio stations that play traditional Christmas songs, and not just the Christian stations, either. But that's not enough for you? You think everyone, every radio station, every newspaper, every TV channel should be forced to do what YOU want rather than what they want? I would think you'd find that a little hard to justify, even to yourself. quote: And there, Lee, is the whole problem in a nutshell. You don't have any right to provide moral guidance to MY children and grand-children. We're like a lot of small families living in a huge old house, Lee. What you do in your own room is entirely your business, and if you want to run around butt-naked in front of your own kids, I think you are entirely within your rights to do so. When you walk in the living room, though, in front of MY kids, your rights have to be adjusted to mesh with my own. I promise I won't tell your kid to get a haircut if you'll just promise to keep your tush covered when you leave your room. The parts of the house we have to share, like the schools and public buildings we both pay to maintain, are necessarily places of compromise. You don't get to send your kids to school naked, even if that's part of your culture, and you certainly don't get to tell MY kids they should go naked, too. Providing moral guidance to my family is my job, Lee, not yours. quote: Part of the problem, Michael, is that you're right. But first . . . . . . I would like to clarify something. Those who no longer believe in a separation of church and state seem to think those who do are somehow concerned about offending others. I can only speak personally, but for me, nothing could be farther from the truth. I have several Jewish friends at the University where I taught, at least one Muslim of which I'm aware, and a whole raft of agnostics or atheists, all of whom will be sent Christmas cards and well wishes this year. I don't apologize for my beliefs and I never worry whether practicing those beliefs will offend or even antagonize anyone. However, I also don't stand in front of a classroom and preach on the taxpayer's dollar. Not directly and not even indirectly as would certainly be the case if I continuously referenced my religion or my God. Those students didn't pay their money to hear me preach, and their parents and families didn't pay their taxes so I would have a government sponsored pulpit. I don't abstain because I'm worried about offending anyone, Michael. I abstain because ten years from now, many of those students in front of me are going to be standing in front of their own classrooms, teaching our grandchildren and great-grandchildren. I abstain today in fervent hope they will abstain tomorrow. Separation of church and state isn't about fear of giving offence. It's about protecting everyone's right to worship in their own way. Sure, that means protecting the Jews and Muslims and Hindus from the Christians, but it also means protecting the Christians from the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and especially from the other Christians. You're right, Michael, the majority of five-year-olds entering the school system have no prior experience in that kind of social setting. Their parents probably only went to church on Easter and Christmas, if that, and the kids never had the opportunity to attend Sunday School two or three days a week, where they certainly would have been introduced to much the same kind of social interaction they would later discover in the public school system. I sympathize with those kids, Michael, as they watch Mommy say Merry Christmas to neighbor George, only to cuss out poor George as soon as he walks away because she thinks he was too lazy to shovel snow off his part of the shared sidewalk. I understand their confusion when they see Daddy hand the paperboy a small, brightly wrapped present, only to hear Daddy come home six hours later singing Christmas carols in a drunken stupor. I know their fear, too, when visiting Aunt Sally tells them they're going to burn in Hell some day. Of course, I'm probably exaggerating just a little . . . if only because nearly half those kids entering school at five probably only have one parent at home still setting bad examples for them. Sorry, guys, but those just aren't the people I want teaching my kids and grand-kids the meaning of Christmas. Again and again and yet again . . . that's my job, not yours, and certainly not theirs. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Ron My son is bald, and so, I don't believe there's an issue with telling him to get a haircut, although upon getting his picture taken for his license, he told the gal who took it, he didn't like his hair, he was having a bad hair day and could he have it retaken? hehehehhhee Whoa, seriously Ron, so your actually saying, it's ok for other religious groups to take away my rights, but I cannot defend mine? That is not diversity Ron, if you don't want your children to pray, then ok...so don't pray...what is wrong with me praying while yours stands there and respects my religious beliefs? Morals? For instance, respect for anothers culture, belief, religion? Respect for the teacher, and classmates, respect for another when they say no...understanding when someone is voicing their belief and lastly, allowance along with the maturity to do so. I'm not for taking advantage of the system or having it all. There must be common ground...and fair is fair...I'm not asking for the world here...certainly do not expect the world to play traditional songs on all the stations....but there has been a decline due to this movement... Ron, I really think your not understanding me, cuz your taking it all the way to the other end of the spectrum, which is not logical?????? I'm not understanding you? Why are you thinking I'm an ogar who wants it all or no thing? So what your saying is, its ok for them to do it to me, but I cannot voice my belief? I respect your way of parenting and your voice on how you want your children raised, but hey, then you've gotta do the same by me? It should be up to the individual, if they want to pray, read the ten commandments, listen, don't listen or turn it off, or say Holiday or Christmas. There should be no group/workplace, employer in the U.S. that specifies which one I have to say. I'm there to work, not win friends and influence people or play politics. Saying Christmas certainly does not ascertain my work ethics, nor should it. Ron, how is that fair...?????? Lee, there are many, many, many radio stations that play traditional Christmas songs, and not just the Christian stations, either. But that's not enough for you? You think everyone, every radio station, every newspaper, every TV channel should be forced to do what YOU want rather than what they want? I would think you'd find that a little hard to justify, even to yourself. Geeze Ron, NO I DON'T! I surely don't want it all... Where are you coming from with this comment, you don't even know me? ..I'm certainly not trying to monopolize the situation...nor do I think every radio station should play these songs....Ron, I don't even know if I can clarify myself a Christain? As my beliefs are not what most Christains believe...but, NO NO No, your wrong and just a tad to condescending on this subject for my cup of tea....I'm trying to preserve what is being taken away...whats good for the goose, is also good for the Gozling, yanno? I'm trying to stay neutral here? and also find the humor in all of this...anyone who knows me, knows I'm diverse and will bend more then most? And I understand your point of views, what I don't understand is why your taking total offense to my points of view that you feel like you've got to kick me when I'm down and still keep kicking me... Wait... I'll lay down for you... ok, your turn, kick away [This message has been edited by LeeJ (12-06-2005 02:01 PM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Lee, I think you know from my comments that i am basically on your side as far as this topic is concerned in many ways. There is something you should know, though, which took me quite a while to learn. Ron is a thought-provoker. By that I mean he will, in these conversations, challenge viewpoints and show others as a means of getting everyone involved to think on a more open-minded level. That is not saying he doesn't mean what he says but he will show something in perspective from the other side's viewpoint, whether he champions it or not, if only to show that there is indeed another viewpoint to consider. His words are not attacks and he doesn't kick when one's down...he simply pushes one to consider all aspects of an argument or situation. Please don't take it personally becuase it's not. Ron, forgive me for butting in as if I'm defending you, which you certainly don't need, but it's something not easily seen by another and, like I said, it took me some time to recognize it, too. By your constant arguing with me you forced me to do a lot more thinking and were probably sitting there smiling while I fumed. Hey, maybe you ARE evil!  |
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latearrival Member Ascendant
since 2003-03-21
Posts 5499Florida |
Michael, I agree. Ron opens the doors for us to enter a space where we can more freely explore and sometimes find our way to a deeper voice which we never knew we had. He is a mind opener. Lee, You know this too, as you are a master of deep exploration. I think of you as a metaphysical giant with words and thoughts. What sifts through your mind is unequaled. I appreciate you, Ron and Michael among others. martyjo |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Oh, I'm definitely evil, Michael. I didn't realize, however, that I was predictable. Lee, Mike's right, I'm not attacking you so much as trying to get you to understand how you are attacking almost everyone who doesn't agree with you. And you're right, I don't know you, so I can only go by what you write on these pages. Almost everything you've written indicates you DO want it all, even if it is at the expense of others who want something else. You want a radio station that plays traditional Christmas music? They're out there, dear, all you have to do is pick one. Instead, you seem to want to pick one and then force them to play what you want. You want a store that still says Merry Christmas? Those are out there, too, Lee, and all you have to do is pick one. Instead, you seem to want to pick a store and then force them to say what you want them to say. You want a job where you are free to say Merry Christmas? Come on out to Michigan and go to work for me instead of trying to force your employer to run his business to suit your desires. You want your kids or grand-kids to be able to pray in school? Pony up the bucks and send them to one where all the parents and grandparents want the same thing. No one has taken anything at all away from you, Lee, or anyone else. You just have to be willing to look for what you still very much have where it is instead of where it isn't. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
(raising my hand) Um, Ron? Can I come to Michigan and work for you? |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
awwww shucks, I was hoping you'd know I was and am simply playing, trying to understand and learn...I love these open sessions...the challenge, and this ability to express. And yeah, they do seem to get somewhat heated at times, but that's ok, it's how a person should be, not compromise they're beliefs, but open themselves up to thought provoking issues. I was concerned that you thought I was strickly being one sided about this and sorry I came across like I don't possess understanding for the beliefs of others. I will admit to becoming upset though, when a woman at work corrected me and said, I can't say Christmas anymore and must refer to it as Holiday...and that's what has driven this thread the most... Ron, if you knew me, you'd know, I'm somewhat like Karen, owning a dry sense of humor & pretty tough skinned...I won't back down, and will keep drilling until I understand...and, this might be a good time to throw in an apology if I've offened anyone at anytime during this discussion....please know that I do like to be playful. you haven't offended me in any way, nor have I taken your expressions as offensive or personal...I want to hear your ideas...beliefs, and personal convictions...you shouldn't compromise your identity, no one should. I never have been able to express myself in these forums well...people think I'm upset, and I'm not. Love a good debate, and to joke around, but will ask questions as well. I did feel at one point you were condiscending me, and perhaps that is that little old chip on my shoulder from past experience. Just wanted to know what it was I said that made you think I wanted it all? Heck, I've got it all Ron, me needs nothing...hehehe Thank you Deer for your concern, that was good of you to come to Ron's defense...it shows courage, and I admire that...would love to have you in my corner sometime...  I need to obtain firm information to back up my articulations of issues going on I suppose? Not to mention, and let me warn you, I'm a very passionate speaker... honestly, I did hear this on the radio the other day...and a culmination of other small issues prompted this thread. *************************************************** Ron: You want a job where you are free to say Merry Christmas? Come on out to Michigan and go to work for me instead of trying to force your employer to run his business to suit your desires. **************************************************** I'd really prefer not to force anyone to run his business anyway, but I don't really and truly see, how I must be corrected for saying a word and then told I'm not allowed to say it? I've been saying it for years and believing it for years? He can refer to it as he pleases and so can everyone else, ...but I was very offended at the thought of being corrected like I had said a swear word or something, when the woman said to me, shhhh, don't say Christmas, say Holiday...that is what I don't understand Ron, it's a word and has been my belief for years....you can say Holiday, I don't care, honest, but to correct me for my belief...Ron, I don't understand that...? Michigan? Well, thanks a lot for the offer, hugs, but I'm a warm weather gal and plan to move south for retirement. P.S. Is it true, up in Michigan, when winter comes you guys must hook your cars up to some kind of batteries to keep them warm so they start up in the morning? Thanks Ron, for keeping me challenged and hopefully diverse... |
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Startime55 Member Elite
since 2003-04-05
Posts 2148Alberta, Canada |
I just couldn't keep my mouth shut about this one....I'm with old fuddy duddy and long for the good old days when people were not offended so easily...I have nine grandchildren in all grade levels and live in what is considered a bible belt but over the last 5 years there has not been one christ-filled Christmas song in any of their "winter pagents" and believe me I have attended them all...as a matter of fact last year at my grandson's elementary pagent they spent the whole play proving that Santa was a fake and he was only 7 at the time....anyone who knows me knows how I love the magic in life so doing that to Santa hurt too.... Like it or not the reason we celebrate at this time of year has traditionally been because we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ and it matters not if he was born at this time...what matters is that we, as christians, remember His birth and celebrate it....others who are non-christian have joined in celebrating for their own reasons and that is wonderful...just coming together in fellowship and love but it doesn't change the traditional facts.... I am starting to ramble....I have lived in many different places with different languages and beliefs and have always loved to participate in any cultural celebrations going on...I believe that Christmas is our cultural belief and should not be changed to suit others.... In my yard I demonstrate my belief by putting up a lifesize model of the Nativity adding to its size every year...this year we added a flock of lambs, one for each of our grandchildren....we also put a speaker outside and play all the traditional carols so anyone who wants to celebrated with us can enjoy them.... Thank you for starting this thread...we all have a right to express ourselves....I do not wish to offend anyone but I will celebrate my way and you may have yours....mutual respect would be appreciated when a cultural tradition such as Christmas is in Season.... MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Thank you Startime, I agree with your every word I'm not trying to take anything away from someone else, nor do I want it all...never did...and I'm not trying to insult anyone or take away their beliefs, I'm simply trying to preserve mine...but in this thread, seem to be stumbling all over my words I suppose? no matter how you say it, doesn't offend me, no matter what you play on TV or the radio, doesn't offend me, and the children's plays should be a great example of the word tollerate, allow, overlook and not be so darn sensitive...and that is what offends me....when we've been practicing these pagan rituals for years...(I'm being playful) When I'm told, I cannot say Christmas, no matter where I am or whose around. This is what I'm talking about. I'm not offended by anyone who refers to it differently, but, in the same I'm asking those in this movement, to also be a little sensitive to my beliefs and allow me? Is that wanting it all? Is seeing children doing a play on the nativity a hazard or a disease? and so I've returned with some evidence to back up my words.... Here's a little something to back up what I've been trying to explain, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10297701/ http://bottradionetwork.com/station_kansasCity/kansasCity_iss.asp[/URL] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6396-2004Dec16.html[/URL] Now, if anyone comes back in here and tells me there isn't a Santa Clause....  http://freebiesandstuff.freeyellow.com/christmas/santa-claus.html[/URL] and I've mustarded up a little more courage, with the help of Startime to say this...Christmas, had started to become, a very overwhelming holiday for me...and I never knew why until later on in life. It's the hustle and bustle of shopping...my son and I were talking the other day, and he said, Mom, if you don't return a gift to people they are hurt, or insulted...I said, tough...it's not about giving gifts...and he knows that, and agree, but added, it's the way they make you feel, and their expectaions, yanno?... I love a great celebration as much as the next person, but at work, the parties & lunches are way out of hand... Your expected to attend, even if, it is not on company time...and I really resent that. First of all, on most of the lunches we have to split the bill, and if you must attend 3 or 4, that can get pretty costly. Then it is the expected gifts for the boss, and for his boss, and other secretaries and the polyannas, and then theres those few who you choose to buy a little something for, yanno? When I gracefully bowed out of several lunches over the years, I was told I wasn't a team player? How can my lunch hour, which is supposed to be my free time, of which I'm allowed to spend any way I'd like, dictate as my work ethics? Now if it's a working lunch, then I must attend and will...but Startime, I agree, it's gotten way out of hand...and I'm afraid people are slowly forgetting the pressure they're putting on others...simply b/c of expectations. Thanks for chimming in.... [This message has been edited by LeeJ (12-08-2005 01:47 PM).] |
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Startime55 Member Elite
since 2003-04-05
Posts 2148Alberta, Canada |
LOL...How absolutely perfect...I love the story of the Secret Santa because this year I have been teaching my grandchildren how to do just that....we put together a basket of goodies and found a family that needed it...they had a trilling time delivering it in the early darkness of morning....I told them they were playing pixie to someone and that it is something they can do year round and is always filled with the spirit of Christmas.... I am one of those grandmothers who loves to keep magical things alive in the hearts of my grandchildren....Thank you, so much, Lee for having a heart that loves Christmas and Christ so much that you shout it from the rooftops....**BIG BIG HUGS** Christmas time it is and I will work hard to make sure another generation loves all the traditions that comes with it.... |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
don't forget those Santa roll out cookies, right? Home baked pudding, and all those painting in my mind from Life Magazine...and the infamous "Christmas Story"! Hey, did you see Polar Express, wonderful story for children... hugs rightbackatcha |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
 Lee, I'm absolutely glad you've shared these links with us so we can have a deeper understanding of where you're coming from, along with many other Americans who indeed face these experiences of holiday erodings, which I do agree are happening in a number of communities nationwide. I must add, however, that the tone in the third link you've shared is precisely the main problem I have with those trying to illuminate the problem; there's some who make the critical mistake of going at or even demonizing other faiths when trying to argue that in a nation with an obviously large Christian minority, yet also a melting pot, why Christmas should be preserved in its traditional values and goes at Hanukkah. There are those like Krauthammer who take a wonderful argument and contaminate it in suggesting Jews are behind the blueprint of despiritualizing Christmas, and others suggest liberals are behind it, other faiths, etc, and also spend a good deal of time trying to show how another tradition is of little importance when sizing it up to Christmas. I'm a Christian, but I have Jewish friends and even Jewish family members and I also value their rights to celebrate their traditions without being interferred with. I'm positively sure that a vast majority of all those groups I mentioned do not endorse such actions, and it's a very tiny percentage of Americans who truly are the anti-Christmas Ebenezers, which are not necessarily part of any group, that exhibit this attitude in trying to strip Christmas of its true meaning. * The other point I wanted to make is, truly, parents are never lying when they encourage their children to believe in Santa Claus. Santa Claus IS real. The original Santa Claus was St. Nicholas himself. He was born in Lycia in the 4th century, who was a lovable man who became the patron saint of children because he loved them so much. He was also very charitable and this is known from Roman accounts during his time in patronage. He didn't have his sleigh, his signature red suit or Rudolph and his reindeer then, but he had his white beard, wore bishop's robes that were red and white, and through a feast of his own on December 6, a Christian feast day. Up until the sixteenth century, his spirit was praised all across Europe, and then when the Protestant banned him from many European countries, which he got replaced with secular ideals, the Dutch fell in love with him and called him their "protector of sails". He graced the design of the first Dutch ship that made it to America, the first church in New York City was named after him, and they offered Christmas items that would become symbols to the holiday tradition. And as for the stockings, in sixteenth-century Holland, instead of them at first, children placed wooden shoes filled with straw to feed St. Nick's donkey and in return the shoes would be filled with a small gift. America is where the stocking became used instead. And his name? The Dutch spelled St. Nicholas "Sint Nikolass," which in the New World became "Sinterklass". later changed to "Santa Claus". America is where the spirit of Santa Claus would be illustrated deeper. Dr. Clement Clarke Moore's 1822 poem "The Night Before Christmas" was originally meant only to read to his children on Christmas Eve but a friend had sent his poem all across newspapers and his poem instantly became a classic, which is where the reindeer and the sleigh added to Santa's spirit. He also gained weight in illustration in America from a cartonnist named Thomas Nast, who published the cartoons all throughout Harper's Weekly magazine until 1886, revealing the shift from a thinner to a bigger Santa, also mentioning Santa makes toys all year at the North Pole and monitoring children's behavior for them to be rewarded. All of this evolved in America to add to this beautiful holiday, along with the elves, the magic, and so much more! * Thanks for this wonderful thread, Lee!  Love, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
hugs to you Noah yanno what has always stumped me.... no matter what the religion or tradition, how can one, absolutely believe, that theirs is the truth, when they're have been so many man made rules come into play, be it religion or tradition, we all need to be a lot less sensitive about political correctness...it's an absolute insult to the intelligence of man...I think and not take all this stuff so personal, I mean, we know when someone's being down right critical, mean, rude and a biggot, do we not. And so, why not let each other alone when it comes to their beliefs and words describing their beliefs? |
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latearrival Member Ascendant
since 2003-03-21
Posts 5499Florida |
Lee, I am confused.If your boss does not want Religion in the work place why the christmas parties and gift to the boss? I would not chip in. Did I read something wrong. martyjo |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
LeeJ, I understand where you are coming from and I have to agree. I miss the good old days, too. I do believe there is an assault, particularly on mentioning the "Christ" word. I know that here in Houston for the past 10 years or so, public schools here have not permitted any Christian songs sung at choir or played at band or orchestra concerts. However, on the other hand, there have been secular songs of all nationalities to celebrate the holidays and I have heard Jewish Hanukkah played. Hard to believe that would be the case here in the Bible Belt, but that is the truth of it! This particularly aggravated me since some of the most beautiful music (and historic) has come out of Christianity. Even my daughter's Jewish voice teacher (when she was in high school) taught her German/Christian composed music for the value of it. Most of the religions in our nation respect each other. The war here is not between the religions but rather between those who wish to express their beliefs and secularists, or those with no beliefs. Secularists have rights, too, but I thought our freedom of speech rights were intact as long as they did not infringe upon the rights of others! I do not see what the harm is to secularists if we express our beliefs. If the wish is from a capitalistic standpoint to greet people coming into WalMart with "Happy Holiday" instead of "Merry Christmas" that does not bother me, as as a greeter you might not know what particular holiday is being celebrated by the person you are greeting. When that greeter quits saying "Happy Holiday" we'd better really start worrying. Happy Holidays is all-inclusive....that doesn't bother me. But when a little boy in Texas gets kicked out of school for passing out candy canes because they represent Christ's suffering, that is just plain wrong. Times are changing. I can remember a time when prayer was always said before football games, right there along with the playing of the Star Spangled Banner. That sure doesn't happen anymore in most places and if they get caught, you can bet your booties, there will be a lawsuit to prohibit it from happening again, even here in the Bible Belt. Prayer certainly does not offend Jews, Moslems or Christians, and I doubt seriously Budhists would complain, so the question you have to ask is does the majority rule here, or is it the minority who is changing the culture of this country. I believe most religions respect each other....it is those without religion that don't want it shoved down their throats, and their rights should be protected. The answer may be to take federal funding out of everything, particularly the school systems. And what would Jesus do? I am sure he would not quit praying, that I'm sure of, and I suspect he would say that prayer is between you and God and not you and the football stadium. He did say to render under God's what is God's and Ceasar what is Ceasar's...which I find a paradox in and of itself because what was Ceasar's is God's ultimately in my belief system. But nonbelievers could construe that as meaning keeping church and state separate. I think a distinction is necessary, but I don't think taking away the rights of believers is the answer. What harm comes to the secularist when hearing Merry Christmas or Happy Hannakuh....I just don't get it....or if there is prayer before a football game....or if a little boy passes out candy canes to his classmates that have a description of the origin of the candy attached to it. That little tag hanging onto the candy cane might be selling Christianity, but does that harm anyone, really? Rather than being a religiously diversified nation, we have become a nation of religiously supressed people. Everyone, including those who oppose religious holidays or displays, should have the right to express themselves. Rather than changing the signs on city names to take the crosses off of them, they should make sure they have all religious symbols put on them....and those who don't have symbols (secularists, atheists, agnostics, etc.) should unite and create one of their own so that they are represented, too, I guess. They have that right! < Just my two cents. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I believe Jesus said "render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's." On that note, I'd like to point out that even the vocally Christian George W. has sent out "Holiday" cards. grin...not sure if that's a point for either side, actually.  (serenity ducks and runs--) |
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Startime55 Member Elite
since 2003-04-05
Posts 2148Alberta, Canada |
Serenity you are such a treasure....If only we could bottle the love in your heart we would finally have a truly loving world...**big hugs** |
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latearrival Member Ascendant
since 2003-03-21
Posts 5499Florida |
I remember when George first ran, he said, "it was easy to raise money, just have your mother send out cards to every one on her CHRISTMAS list." And even as a registered Democrat I recieved one. Times do change and he blows with the wind. martyjo |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
- from The Weekend Australian 10 Dec 2005 " In fact, the last presidential Christmas card to include the word Christmas was in 1992 - from George H.W. and Barbara Bush, parents of the incumbent." So easy to be critical when one doesn't bother to look for facts....Merry Christmas! |
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latearrival Member Ascendant
since 2003-03-21
Posts 5499Florida |
The card may not have said CHRISTMAS. But he said that about her Christmas list as a help to raise money for him. Help me find that phrase.I am positive I remember his saying that. thank you. martyjo |
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majnu
since 2002-10-13
Posts 1088SF Bay Area |
i symapthize with your frustration at the commercial hijacking of a religious holy day (whence comes holiday). i very much like the fact that for eid we are recommended reasonable personal gifts by the quoran. and money is supposed to be of reasonable amounts meant to show care. christmas is really nuts, especially the whole santa claus thing. but as a favorite prof. of mine would point out - its a pagan holiday anyway, Jesus was born sometime in Jan. so if you can't even get the day right... but then most institutionalized religions have made such compromises to convert people of other religions. aside from the historical footnotes, I must take issue with two things you said, namely the bit about the schools. it is perfectly correct for christmas carrols not to be sung as part of public schooling. if student organizations wish to do so than of course that is their right, but to expect carrolling and christmas teachings as part of curriculum, especially in elementary grade schooling is reprehensible. it violates the very spirit of the constitution which requires separation of church as state (the same reason I take issue with the pledge of allegiance). second, what movement? the only movement i see is commercialization which is feuled by socio-economics and excellent advertising. what freedom of speech infringements are you talking about. were you told to say holidays around work? well if so maybe you had a jewish person working with you to whom merry christmas would mean nothing. [Edited - Ron] oh yeah, and for 'deer and anyone else who wants to cite percentages: the reason we are a republic and not a strict democracy is to protect the minority's rights from the majority. strict democracy is inherently like a mob, it must be tempered. again and again i marvel at our constitution's lasting wisdom. -majnu -------------------------------------- Timid thoughts be not afraid. I am a Poet. [This message has been edited by Ron (12-11-2005 10:36 PM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Our constitution, as well as our country, was based on Christian beliefs and values. All of the quotes and proof of that has been displayed in another thread. As far as violating the spirit of the Constitution, I contend that the spirit of the Constitution as far as the separation of church and state is concerned was created to insure that the United States would not be run like the government and the Church of England they had broken away from. I can't speak for the gentlemen but I'd bet Ron's net worth that, if they were seeing that their words were being interpreted to mean no one could use the phrase "under God" or sing Christmas carols in school plays or no student to offer another a candy cane, which could be interpreted to refer to the suffering of Christ...they would be rolling over in their graves. Carroling is not part of a school's curriculum, that I'm aware of. They are sung in school pageants or plays. If you have seen no movement other than commercial then you have not read these threads, read newspapers or watched television in quite some time....and, yes, percentages do matter, as I'm sure the city councilmen of Boston will find out when their next bid for re-election comes around........ |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
You forgot to mention the other reason why we are a republic and not a pure democracy, majnu. It is not only to attempt to prevent mob rule by the majority, it is also to attempt to prevent tyranny by the minority. It never ceases to amaze me that the group that espouses tolerance for just about everyone and everything under the sun has absolutely none for people of faith, particularly towards Christians and Jews. They are so blinded by their ideology that they cannot even see their own hypocrisy, it seems to me. It also seems to me that most of these people believe in nothing and cannot tolerate expressions of belief by others. No, saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas is not a big deal, when it is synonomous with the season, 'including' Christmas and not 'instead of' Christmas. The big deal is the attempted disrespect of another group's traditions and beliefs under the pretext of not wanting to hurt anyone else's feelings. What, are these people two-year-olds? They need to grow up, in my opinion. The ones who attempt to change the terminology say that the terminology is no big deal. Then just leave it the way it always has been for centuries if it's no big deal. And it doesn't matter when the actual birth date of Christ was. A little respect and tolerance should be shown for the celebration of the day that was selected by the vast majority of Christendom to honor the event, even if it coincides with the time that the Winter Solstice is celebrated, and despite the fact that the celebration of the Winter Solstice came first, just as respect is shown by Christians for other's holy days and holidays. They are more than welcome to join in the celebration with us, or celebrate this time of year in their own way, to their own liking, infusing it with their own meaning, just as Christians did with the Winter Solstice. What they don't have the right to do is to attempt to divorce the season from its Christian, traditional meaning in our culture just because they don't like it. To the Christian the Christmas Tree, an evergreen, represents the eternal life of Christ. It also represents the privilege God gives us to partake of the Tree of Life. It is irrelevant what it may have originally meant to the pagans. To the Christian the lights on the tree represent Christ as the Light of the World. It is irrelevant what it may have originally meant to the pagans. To the Christian the gift giving is symbolic of the gift bestowed on us by God through Christ, and an expression of our love for one another. It is irrelevant what it may have originally meant to the pagans. And it is not unconstitutional to celebrate and express one's faith in the public square. It is unconstitutional to prohibit that expression. |
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majnu
since 2002-10-13
Posts 1088SF Bay Area |
balladeer you forget your history. our constitution is not based mainly on christianity. it is based mainly on hobbes, locke, and rousseau (whose name i often misspell) but it has many other influences besides. whether or not the founders would agree with the complete removal of religion from government is irrelevant. they probably would not have agreed with the abolition of the slaves and the prevention of states from seceeding either, or perhaps women's suffrage. as for a movement, if you are referring to examples such as your post about the christmas tree in mass - well, it is only right. i find it funny that people harrass other countries for mixing religion in government but try to make exceptions for the US. as we have seen with free speech, privacy issues, and discrimination, an inch is a mile. an you especially sir, who seem senior enough to perhaps remember mccarthyism should know this. if we do not actively seek to keep religion out of government it will creep in, and truly how far is it from christmas carols to inquisitions. if we stand on principle we cannot make exceptions. as for denise, the tyranny of the minority that is spoken of is referring to nobles, oligarchs etc. not groups like the jewish, muslim, or other religios minority. furthermore, a republic does not guard against a tyranny of the minority - rome was a republic and a selection of oligarchs ruled it with iron fists. "it never ceases to amaze me that the group..." which group? i never said it was unconstitutional to celebrate one's faith in a public square. what is wrong is for the government to grant a special distinction to the celebration of one faith as opposed to all others. -majnu |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
We haven't had a problem in over two hundred years with a church becoming one with the state, despite the lack of the level of 'vigilance' that we see today. Tyranny of the minority can refer to any minority group imposing its will on the majority. I didn't specify any group in particular. What group? The group that wants to impose its will on the majority. Rome's republic failed in part for that reason. Balladeer hasn't forgotten his history. He just hasn't rewritten it, as seems to be the fashion of the day for some. No one religion is receiving special distinction. All are welcome to express themselves. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
How far is it from Christmas carols to inquisitions? Farther than you will ever be able to see, fellow poet. True, alarmists can be eager to take a small action and projecting it to an armaggedonistic result but carols have been around for a couple of centuries and I haven't seen any indications of inquisitions lately. No, an inch is not a mile - an inch is an inch. Actually, I do remember my first grade teacher mentioning mccarthyism...that was the fellow screaming something about the "menace that would destroy the country if not exposed and taken care of....an excellent example. I believe those who would claim that carols in school plays would lead to inquisitions one day would have that same McCarthistic outlook. what is wrong is for the government to grant a special distinction to the celebration of one faith as opposed to all others. I haven't seen that happening...have you? I've never seen a school or public area that acknowledged Christmas denying acknowledgement of other faiths. I have not seen a school or shopping center that would allow a Christmas decoration not allow a menorah. The country allows for all faiths and does not stifle the celebration of any that I'm aware of. our constitution is not based mainly on christianity. Ok, one evening when it is not so late I will dig up all of the quotes of our founders that negate that statement since you are apparrently unaware of them. They have been listed here before. I am not as afraid of "Silent Night" being sung by a school choir being dangerous to our country as I am of anyone who would say that Christmas, or any other religion, is nuts. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
It's all nuts. |
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majnu
since 2002-10-13
Posts 1088SF Bay Area |
balladeer, you do not know me sir, so i will forgive you for caling me an alarmist. i am far from it. those who say that christianity in america is under seige as the originator of this thread suggests are the alarmists. i am simply espoused of the idea that all remnants of religion in government must be eradicated. as for an inch versus a mile. well, here we simply disagree. i say that if one is to stand on principle then there can be no exceptions. you would have degrees. i believe you willfully misinterpret me on two accounts. first, my reference to mccarthyism was meant to illustrate the idea of an inch and a mile. those who wanted to root out communism and "anti-americanism" were given an inch and it led to a mile over time. just take a look at their lists and the way people used the red-baiting against one another. second, ------------- what is wrong is for the government to grant a special distinction to the celebration of one faith as opposed to all others. I haven't seen that happening...have you? I've never seen a school or public area that acknowledged Christmas denying acknowledgement of other faiths. I have not seen a school or shopping center that would allow a Christmas decoration not allow a menorah. The country allows for all faiths and does not stifle the celebration of any that I'm aware of. -------------- well, if children are given the assignment of making shoebox nativity scenes in public schools, i definitely see that as the government giving distinction to one religion over another. why then not make a shoebox scene for every jewish, muslim, hindu, buddhist, taoist, etc. holiday. to not do so would be tacitly sending a message of preferring christianity to all other religions. i dealt with many examples of this growing up. you say you did not, perhaps, since you seem to be in the general mainstream, you just did not notice. and as for the founding fathers, well, you can quote anything and everything you want. the proof is in the pudding. if you go and read H,L and R and the republic, and you then look at the original articles you will see what excellent paraphrases those men were. they were not innovators, they were extremely wise choosers. -majnu -------------------------------------- Timid thoughts be not afraid. I am a Poet. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
i am simply espoused of the idea that all remnants of religion in government must be eradicated. Well, sir, then I would say your work is cut out for you. We must also eliminate St. Valentine's day, which has a saint as its figurehead. Then we must also eliminate Thanksgiving, in which the settlers gave thanks to God. Easter? God forbid! No bunny decorations or colored eggs can be allowed in any school. True, they themselves are not religious figures but they are part of a holidays that is so they are equally tainted. Then, of course, we need to eliminate the "In God we trust" from the money. Congress has retained paid (Christian) chaplains since 1789 to open sessions with prayer and to provide spiritual guidance to members and their staffs upon request...need to stop that. At the back of the Supreme Court building there is a sculpture of Moses holding two tablets. They say that Moses is represented as a lawgiver only and that the tablets are actually blank so it cannot be claimed that they are in actuality the Ten Commandments but come on now...Moses holding up two tablets in the same shape as every representation ever seen of the commandments? Way too suggestive of religious connotations, wouldn't you say? Christmans and Easter are federal holidays - need to eliminate that. Believe me...the list could go on and on..... well, if children are given the assignment of making shoebox nativity scenes in public schools You give yourself an out with making your example hypothetical. You do not claim that this happens and I tell you that I certainly never saw it during my educational career. If we are to throw up hypothetical situations to validate our thoughts then we've lost reason. i say that if one is to stand on principle then there can be no exceptions. you would have degrees. I have to ask - and sincerely, because it is really not clear to me - which principle you refer to....not just the words but the principle behind the words. Do you claim that all principles are absolutes? Principles that were created by man? What makes them absolutes. You give excellent examples pointing out slavery and suffrage. There are many so-called principles that have not stood up with the passage of time and to take a document written over two centuries ago and attempt to apply it word for word to today would be foolish, i think. There are people who want to read what suits them into the words of our fathers. That's how seperation of church and state translates into no Christmas carols in school plays. That's how right to bear arms translates into being able to carry around AK-47s or automatic sub-machine guns. That is why there are amendments to the Constitution. If one were to state that everything the founding fathers put in the constitution were principles then you would have to be against any change or amendments, by your definition. Treating constitutional words as being "etched in stone" would liken them to....well, the Ten Commandments |
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majnu
since 2002-10-13
Posts 1088SF Bay Area |
1) yes. well sure it is a long road but so what. 2) again, you willfully misinterpret me. i specifically said that i dealt with many sich examples growing up, including the one i describe. it is not hypothetical. if i had not cleaned out my room when i left for college i could have mailed you damn thing. 3) the principle i refer is the complete separation from church and state. the complete separation from the idea that some divine laws should govern all humans. we cannot agree on those laws as a race, so we must agree on ones that we can enforce and give good reason for without reference to metaphysics. as for stone, i have a gift a friend gave me for graduation with some choice words etched in it. how about i liken those to the ten commandments. -majnu |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
My apologies then. When you said you dealt with many examples of this growing up I did not presume you were referring to shoebox nativity scenes....my mistake. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
anyone, in my mind, can kneel down and pray to their God in the street if they like, or play their traditional music, or refer to holidays as theirs...but in the same, I'm only asking that people show us the same respect for our views and beliefs...I don't want to take anything away from anyone...if you or your children are offended by prayer, then don't listen...but, in the same, don't take our beliefs away from us, simply because you don't believe...and I'm not referring to anyone who has been kind enough to contribute their thougthts in this thread...I'm referring to the whole nation... we are the People, and we need to remember, to be more respectful of one another...regardless the word...the words are my belief..., the Christmas pagents in schools are tradition...if a parent prefers their child not participate, then that should be respected, but, in the same, don't take the pagent away, or the words away, or the 10 commandments off the walls...and if you want to chant, speak in tongues, or not believe at all, so be it...but don't take away my spiritual belief is what I'm trying to impress and preserve. And yes, I know, those beliefs are still out there and practiced...but, in the same, there are people who are trying to take it away. If we're a diverse nation, and a diverse workplace, then no one has the right to correct my verbage as long as I'm not being disrestful or vulgar. And my belief is certainly not vulgar. You say Holiday, I say Christmas...again, some like vanilla, some like chocolate...just b/c you feel one way and I feel another, doesn't say, your right and I'm wrong, and I'm not saying I'm right and your wrong in your belief...just allow me mine, yanno? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Does anybody else find it a little ironic that while arguing over the terminology, the point of the season is being missed? I'm gonna go peace out m'self. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Serenity, I'm not arguing, as I love these forums and the opportunity to express...though I can't speak for anyone else, but, I hate it when you do that...cuz I want to continue to hear what everyone has to say....but when you do that, it stops anyone from contributing more, even if they are arguing... Do you hate me for saying that? Hope not..... |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Hate you? oh Lee... I'm sitting here trying to think of one person I hate and can't think of one. No way, you! c'mere... |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I thought of one! I'm not sure if I hate him though, as that's a strong word, but I find Tom Benson pretty annoying these days... |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You can join me in celebrating the birthday of the Prince of peace and love or else!  |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
*laughing* Mercy, Master! (I think we've both had enough of that rain and thunder guy.) A bit of sunshine is good. He said, I am the light, right? |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
hehehehe, you both are way to cool... Serenty, polize, people will talk yanno?  (referring to your co'mere comment) hehe Deer...???? I thought HE didn't give altamatiums? is that how you spell it?  Our God, is a very very very nice God...with two cats in the yard.... |
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majnu
since 2002-10-13
Posts 1088SF Bay Area |
so now you are the thunderer?! -majnu |
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