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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan 
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“Four workers in the United States have lost their jobs after refusing to take a test to see if they were smokers. They were employees of Michigan-based healthcare firm Weyco, which introduced a policy banning its staff from smoking - even away from the workplace. The firm says the ban is to keep health costs down…” http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4213441.stm Is weight next? |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
this one's easy in my mind - as long as smoking is legal and formally recognized as creating no impairments in physical or mental abilities to do a job, the workplace has absolutely no right to refuse a job or fire someone for smoking. they do have the right to insist it not be done on their property or time, but not as a lifestyle. on the flip side, if it does become illegal... guess what? it's still none of their damned business what you do in your personal life. next on the big-brother-wanna-control-your-life-list: weight drinking sexual preference sexual gender religious preference free will in succession. i hope and feel it won't come to that, myself. personally, i see this as a big fat shark-attack lawsuit ready to bloody the waters of freedom of choice and discrimination. egowhores.com - really love yourself. [This message has been edited by Christopher (01-28-2005 02:33 PM).] |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
I gotta wonder if the ACLU will take up this one, since it is infringements on privacy as well as discrimination. I kinda have my doubts, due to their involvement in litigation against tobacco companies. I do, however, feel it sets a strong precedent if not challenged and struck down. California, for instance, has for years curtailed the rights of smokers, even going so far as to propose a law making it illegal to smoke on public highways in your own car. Luckily, that was shot down. I agree with the sequence. I mean, how many die of tobacco related illnesses compared to obesity/food intake illnesses? If this company went against the obese, or those who had poor eating habits, there would be a definate hue and cry, irrespective of the high rate of morbidity. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
It's a private company. It's employees have the choice to abide by its policies or go to work elsewhere. One can never be sure what the outcome of wrongful termination lawsuits will be, but, to date, smokers are not a protected class. Jim |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
I believe these people ought to turn around and sue the pants off this company...I'm not sue happy, but with all the political correct issues and now this smoking thing...well to be honest, lets turn the tables on them..... I'm afriad, if people don't start fighting for their rights...simply put...Christopher's comment is absolutely on target.... Private company or not...for or against smoking...it's a person's choice...smoking in your car, at home, or going outside for a break...I mean, come on people, talk about control freaks...sorry, but that's the way I feel... Again...why this, why not attack all the chemical accidents which spew their venum into the air??? I don't understand where this unheard of mental concept is coming from...it's absolutely ludicrous |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Should a health club be allowed to terminate a personal trainer who becomes obese? Should Hollywood be permitted to reject a potential actor or actress for a part based on looks alone? Should Victoria's Secret be allowed to overlook a model who just isn't looking as good in angel wings as she once did? If the company can demonstrate that cigarette smoking is making a significant impact on worker healthcare costs and productivity, then it seems to be well within their rights, as a private company (which, incidentally, is in the business of making money), to do what they are doing. I think a reasonable compromise might be to offer to pay or subsidize the costs of helping nicotine-addicted workers to quit, but that's their business decision to make. Jim |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
in most companies...health care costs are paid for by the employee...smoking does not alter productivity...if the employee is given breaks and a lunch, it is that employee's choice if they want to go outside and smoke...what about all the overtime a person might work and not get paid for...its elective by the employee as well. To be honest...lets look at major company frivilous expenditures...exuberant salaries, write off lunches, bonuses and perks and look at a more reasonible way to cut costs? This is taking away from the freedom of rights of the individual. I'm a smoker... don't smoke in my house, or anyone else's house...nor will I smoke in a resturant or around people who don't smoke. Well aware of how it does offend some people and cause them discomfort...but this???? This goes way beyond the norm and is once again, another effort to control. And yes, if the model is not appropriate for the shot, part, movie, clothes, then yes, they most certainly have the right not to choose that person. Smoking does not in any way, effect my productivity at work...nor should it...and if it does, then that I should be repromanded....and warned and yes, even fired if I would go beyond my breaks during the day, but I don't. And I can't tell you how many employees come back very late from lunch everyday...then, lets say we take an alcohole test and fire anyone who has a drink or two or three for lunch and returns to work. Same concept and much more disruptive. Why, cuz those people always take longer lunches. To me, this is simply a closed mind, who doesn't smoke and walks around stating he/she hates smokers....what a comment...what a concept? There are many more important issues within corporate America which needs to be addressed. Let the smokers alone, and if they're offending you by smoking next to you, then you have every right to express that. I truly do believe smoke does make people who don't smoke uncomfortable and would not hesitate to put out my cigerette to oblige. This is a disgrace...to me, to you, and to everyone in the free world...and should not be taken lightly...What was that song by Journey....Light up...Everybody... Suppose I do sound very serious about this, and I am...but in the same, it's nice to hear all of your comments as well...so, in that I hope I've not offended anyone... |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Then the next thing is weight, Jim - because that's a proven health care burden - far more than smoking from the reports I've heard, far more than cancer, accidents, etc. Sexual promiscuity must be banned as well, because of the health care burdens of STD's. Walking outside without a re-breather must also be banned, because of the health care concerns revolving around a polluted atmosphere (the irony that said companies are the largest contributors shouldn't go unnoticed). Next, well, they'll definitely have to stop working people overtime, becaues of the health care concerns for exhaustion. Oh, and also stop making people work hard at their jobs, because it's stressful and can require care for physcological help. Actually, should probably require the cessation of all sex, period, because it costs a lot of money to have and raise a child from the health care perspective. Too, to add to the list, should eliminate any machinery, vehicles, etc. as they are frequent causes of accidents which result not only in increased health care costs, but also in litigation. (Again, note the irony that if they spent a little more money up-front on realistic safety programs and training, this could be drastically reduced). Seems to me, if they'd just stop making people work for their money, they wouldn't have any concerns over the rising cost of health care... |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
An additional thought, Jim - should that same company also be allowed to refuse employment to someone based on gender, race, religious preference, etc? Equal Opportunity Employer? Or is the opportunity part only for the employer? Should an employer be able to refuse someone a job if they're taking pain medication? Anti-depressants? If they drink beer at night? Should they be able to refuse someone a job if they're a Republican? A Democrat? A Wiccan? Should an employer be able to refuse someone a job if they like to climb mountains on the weekend? Race cars? Bungee jump? If it starts with one, it's an almost inevitable landslide through the rest. As long as smoking is legal, they're impinging on private, personal rights allowed to us though legislation and history. egowhores.com - really love yourself. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
and...what about deer....and the accidents they cause....now, how can we limit there freedom? All kidding aside, accidents caused by deer every year are far more expensive then smokers...besides, every year, there are more and more smokers quiting... |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
gwad, just had an awful thought, Picture a deer standing by the road, with his front legs leaning against a tree, smoking a cigerette while waiting for a car...hehehehe wearing a sign says..." SO FIRE ME!" sorry, silly mood today |
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Titia Geertman Member Ascendant
since 2001-05-07
Posts 5182Netherlands |
The Americans keep amazing me quite a lot lately. But isn't this going way too far??? Are companies thinking one day to forbid you to do sports in your free time, because you may break a leg or something?? Where did they hid the law to the right on privacy in your country. Are they going to get away with this??? Titia Like scattered leaves...my words will flow |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
I really hope not, and from my understanding, the ACLU is actually working to defend civil rights, specifically regarding discrimination and privacy. Wrongful termination and harassment are other matters, but those are state, not federal. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
How far can we actually get from the subject? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
I can’t see how weight can’t be among the next issues, except business and judges bowing to the two thirds estimated to be overweight who would find such a move unpopular. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I don't really think it's all that far Pete. You used examples that you felt were in line with this case. I don't feel your examples are all that applicable either. A fitness instructor's ability to perform their job would be definitively limited by obesity, therefore it's not a concern of health care costs, but rather of work performance. An actor needs to appear a certain way in order to do their job. Not looking the way the directors needs them to would also limit their work performance. A model is much like the actor - it's a matter of work performance, not health care costs. In other words, all your examples show why a person could not be hired because of their inability to perform a specific task. Firing someone for smoking because of the potential financial losses due to increased health care is exactly like doing the same because of obesity and the potential future costs of health care due to heart attacks, strokes, etc. - having sex due to the costs of having and raising children and/or STD's - bungee jumping due to the potential costs of repairing a broken leg or lifelong care for spinal injury. Smoking gets a bad rap and is most definitely not a popular cause. Living here in California, I've seen them disallow smoking in restaurants, public buildings, BARS (still think that one's plain out-and-out dumb, but hey), even in within fifteen feet of an ATM unless you're moving about (Roseville, CA). They've tried more and lost most. Doesn't mean they won't win some more... I don't think the topic's strayed all that far after all. Once you let something go that hinges on something larger, everything else that's connected becomes easier to pluck away. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Actually Chris, I did not give any examples. That question above was my first comment in this thread. I submit the following as justification. quote: Fairly common actually and quite justifiable. quote: Can't really call this one too for off as there is some validity. Not sure about your statistic that overweight is far more dangerous than smoking though  quote: Huh? quote: Illegal. quote: Off the wall! quote: Relevant or ridiculous? As a former employer as well as employee, I am well aware of the costs of health insurance. And although some companies make the employees pay for it, all certainly do not. In the incident cited, we don't know which was the case. Since the cost to the company was given as the reason, I think it fairly safe to assume the company was paying. Small companies that try to provide that costly benefit to their employees are to be commended. Their costs per employee far exceed those of larger companies. Anything, within reason, that they can do to reduce the costs so as to continue providing the benefit seems perfectly reasonable to me. The alternative is to no longer provide insurance. Many, if not most, individuals cannot even purchase health insurance and, if they can, the cost can be entirely prohibitive. I like the idea of having that benefit. And, like Jim said, if you would rather smoke than have that perfect job at that particular company then look elsewhere. Where is the impinging on your rights there? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
So basically they are saying "Where there's smoke, there's firings??"  |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Jim and Pete make perfect sense. But the question can be phrased differently. How much power should an employer have over employees when they aren't working? Is it a rights issue? Is it a profits issue? Which comes first? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Who is paying who... |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
It's a slightly sticky point, because the law says an employer can't fire (or refuse to hire) for the wrong reasons. At the same time, however, an employer isn't required to have a reason. They can fire (or hire) indiscriminately, as long as it really IS indiscriminately (as in, lacking in discrimination). If I decide to only hire people who come to the interview in sneakers, there's not a thing you can do about it. Is it fair? How you would like to be forced to marry someone with whom you don't feel comfortable? Don't like sleeping with someone who smokes or drinks? Tough. Their weight or appearance matters to you? How shallow. Want someone you actually like? Get real. You're proposing (sorry for the pun) a world where anyone who applies for the job of husband or wife has to be hired, a world where their rights supercede your own. That's not a world in which I want to live. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Is weight next??? That can hardly be hidden. I used to work in marketing, and it was a meager job of recording reactions of the "average joe" to visuals, and I promise you, overweight people nearly garnered the most negative reaction from the public, as 'bad' teeth slightly edged that out. I understand the point, but it sorta scalded me that me anyone thought that weight has never played an issue in employment opportunity. Now...I defy anyone to look at pictures and point out the bulimic. And good teeth? Well, veneers cost money, huh? sigh I was once held back from choking an insurance salesman who denied my husband coverage-- amongst the questions asked: "Do you skydive, bungee-jump, or drive a motorcycle?" I answered for my husband: "No. But we shop at Wal-mart." (There was a high profile murder of a woman murdered there at the time.) The salesman laughed. But he also packed his briefcase, as I ranted on: "We also like fried chicken, we drink too much coca-cola, and at times, when we get mad we hold our breath until we're blue." Life ain't fair. And death is less fair than life. * * * And when I'm asked these days if I smoke, I answer, "Hell yeah. But I don't lie." |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I don't have time to get into more of this right now, but want to apologize Pete... for some reason when I got to the reply window I mixed you and Jim up. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
“Risky sexual behavior among Americans is putting the public’s health at risk, according to a new CDC study. . . Researchers estimated that more than 2 million years of life were cut short due to premature death and loss of healthy life because of a disability attributable to sexual behavior. That’s 6 percent of the national total of DALYs. Nearly two-thirds of the health problems caused by sexual behavior were borne by women, who were also most affected by sexual behavior-related disability. Men accounted for 66 percent of overall deaths attributed to sexual behavior. But researchers say if HIV/AIDS deaths are taken out of that figure then 80 percent of the deaths would be among women, largely due to cervical cancer deaths.” http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,145530,00.html Now, being concerned with health costs, a San Francisco company decides . . . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
First of all, let me say that I am a smoker. I don't like that I am, but I am. I don't like the disapproving looks, I don't like being told by perfect strangers on the street that "that's going to kill you, you know." Even a three-year-old scowled at me once and said that, to the amusement of his onlooking father. (Who are these people? ) I am considerate of others and I don't smoke indoors around people that it bothers. I just wish some non-smokers had that same consideration towards me. I've tried to quit, but I've never been able to. I've prayed about it. I've anguished over it. I've done the gum and the patch thing. The longest I lasted was three days. I thought I was going to lose my mind, literally. I guess only smokers can really understand what it's like and are acutely aware of the current bias today against them. First it was no smoking in the work place, now it's spreading to bars, restaurants, and in some places, as Christopher mentioned, in the outdoors and even in your own car. I think Princeton, NJ bans smoking everywhere, except inside your own house. And now the newest wrinkle seems to be the threat of loss of employment. Doesn't even seem to matter what a person's work ethic and other attributes and contributions to the success of the company may be...you smoke, you're out. How sad. And if the past is any indication, it will spread to other companies like wildfire as health insurers promise lower premiums (which won't stay low for long, again, if the past is any indication) to companies who don't have to insure smokers. Yes, I guess it is the employer's right to do whatever they wish to do in that regard, as long as they aren't discriminating against a legally recognized "protected group" within society. It's really a shame though to treat employees this way, especially those in their advancing years just prior to possible retirement with losing their job, retirement benefits, etc., those who will have a much harder time finding another job due to their age. Perhaps it would have been more decent, more compassionate, for the employer to have given the smokers a choice to chip in towards their higher health premium, whatever the difference would be between the smoker premium and the non-smoker premium? Wouldn't that accomplish the same thing for the employer? And/or they could have 'grandfathered' the current employees, and just not hired new employees who smoked, and gotten rid of the smokers by attrition through retirement. Quitting smoking is not something that can easily be done. Some, perhaps most, will never be able to give it up. You might as well ask them to walk on water. Believe me, I know. And once you've smoked for twenty-five or thirty years, the damage is done. If you are going to get cancer or respiratory disease, you're going to get it, whether you quit or not at that point. So how will quitting then save on health care costs anyway? I guess us smokers should seriously consider self-enmployment options if what this company did starts to become a trend. |
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bbent Senior Member
since 2001-01-07
Posts 521Alaska |
Certainly funny how the same people that scream for drug testing to protect themselfs from drunk airline pilots or their children from pot smoking teachers balk when the same invasion of privacy affects them personally.Legal or not cig's are a highly addictive,life taking drug.I'm not going to post any numbers,look them up if you dare,about the effects of tobaco on ones health and the cost of treating it.I recall someone posting that their smoking didn't effect their work habits or ability.That's a far different smoker than I was.To say it didn't effect my ability to do strenious tasks would be nothing but a lie.I'd have to stop to rest and have a smoke half way up a hill I now walk easily without any breathing difficulty.The residue from cigs stink.Try quitting then stepping into a room freqented by smokers and taking a wiff.That same stench ends up in the clothing and on the bodys of nearby nonsmokers.If that's not infringing on a nonsmokers right to smell clean I don't know what is.I have to hang my jacket in a coat room where i work which is also the designated smoking area and it's nessasary to wash the thing nearly daily or stink.Dang but if the residual effects of having a beer isn't having to pee,how would you feel about beer drinkers pissing on your hair and cloths.Rather than rave about the many unhealthy side effects of smoking on the smoker and those having to live with their second hand smoke the point I'm wanting to make is,next time some goverment agency wether it be Dubya and his for your protection personal right stripping patriot act or a local amendment to some constitutional right comes up for a vote do your bitchin and whineing then.Seems to me if you buy a snake to eat your rats then find your own toe in it's path you best be ready for a bite.A snakes a snake.All the ratioalizing in the world isn't going to change that.Just a thought.As far as emplyer,employee relationships go I have to agree,don't bite the hand that feeds you.Your employer's paying the cost to be the boss so respect them or find a gig more to your likeing.Selfemployment is an option. Live like it's your last day... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Yeah, it's funny to pretend, isn't it? quote: Yep. quote: [already done that] quote: Who? quote: I started smoking because I moved. Are you suggesting I shouldn't have? quote: Try stepping into a room with nonsmokers. They bore and irritate to death. quote: My mistake, I'm a smoker. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
bbent, Chill out dude! Have a cigarette!  So your whole point was to tell us to complain and whine about Dubya? Hasn't that been done to death? Maybe your boss could accomodate the smokers with a room with a window for ventilation instead of a coat closet, or make them go outside to smoke (like I have to) and/or respect your contributions to the company enough to give you another place to hang your coat, maybe a 29 cent hook from Home Depot for your office or cubical? A can of air-freshener is pretty cheap too. Shouldn't bankrupt the company, I wouldn't think. Don't bite the hand that feeds you...sort of makes it sound like charity...most folks I know work damned hard for every penny they earn. The employer/employee relationship is a two-way street. For the money workers receive the boss is getting something in return that he deems valuable. And I'll compare my work ethic, ability, health care usage and attendance record against any nonsmoker at my workplace any day of the week. Of course none of us climb hills and mountains for a living. I doubt that most people have jobs that demanding. And I don't think you can accurately compare cigarettes to drugs and alcohol. They don't have the same debilitating affect on the senses. I think it would be more accurate to compare smoking cigarettes to eating junk food, or not exercising enough, or being obese, etc. And I don't think anything smells as bad as intolerance. Now that really reeks! |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Face it: smokers are a minority it is politically correct to hate. That’s where the problem will come with weight. You can publicly excoriate Joe Camel, but adversely comment on Girtha and you’ll be scheduled for a sensitivity class at least or else. |
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Titia Geertman Member Ascendant
since 2001-05-07
Posts 5182Netherlands |
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- about the effects of tobaco on ones health and the cost of treating it.I recall someone posting that their smoking didn't effect their work habits or ability. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It did effect my work...from the time on that I had to go outside for a smoke! I used to work 8 hours a day, smoking a cigarette while working. When I wasn't allowed to smoke in my own room anymore, my employers lost at least 1 hour a day of my hard work. Not that I ever felt sorry for them, they made the call, not me. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The residue from cigs stink.Try quitting then stepping into a room freqented by smokers and taking a wiff. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever entered a room full of people who have just finished with lunch or dinner with lots of garlic in the food??? Mmmmm....bad example....I happen to love garlic. Ever entered a room full of sweating people? quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As far as emplyer,employee relationships go I have to agree,don't bite the hand that feeds you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You mean: like a dog, still crawling after the boss slapt him? quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your employer's paying the cost to be the boss so respect them -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's a fair trade, me working, him paying. But that doesn't mean he owns me. Respect? depends on how he's behaving himself. Respect is something that must be earned, not forced. Hi Denise, we're heading to end up as a rare breed and like my sheep, one day they'll set up a program to preserve us smokers from being extinct Like scattered leaves...my words will flow |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
I'm right there with ya Denise...in every aspect of your words... |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Well, I don't think it's right to fire smokers, but on the same token, I think it's just ridiculous to listen to all the smokers in here talking about how it's really not that harmful. Don't get me wrong, I've smoked in the past and still do occasionally- obviously I don't know 20 or 30 years of addiction since I'm still a young'n, but I have seen the bad effects of smoking on people. If you don't take more sick days now, you will, or you will end up costing your life insurance company when you get cancer or COPD. ANd that cop-out about "well, if I'm gonna get cancer or emphysema, I'll already get it, so why quit now" is a bunch of bull. My mother, who was extremely ill due to other factors, was a lifelong smoker who battled trying to quit. Guess what? When she wasn't smoking, she stayed out of the hospital. When she was smoking, she got chronic bouts of pneumonia. Hmmm. Just wait till you're old and frail... it'll happen. That isn't to say that there aren't other causes of such costly illnesses (ie- bigmac's and fries) and it isn't to say that it's right for you to get fired for an unhealthy habit- but come on, at least admit that it can or will affect your health and will eventually probably lead to debilitating illness. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Dear Hush, never wanted to reinterate that smoking isn't harmful...it is...but so is drinking and taking drugs...but...it doesn't affect a person's work ethics and never, ever should someone be fired for in their home or car. My gosh, I've worked for companies who took regular drug tests and those people were warned, not fired...and that I could hardly believe. I also see people get away with murder on the job...and yet, they are never repromanded...or warned...but to fire smokers b/c they smoke...that to me is ludicrous and narrow minded... I just have a difficult time...with the shallowness of reality...and the never ending battle with those who wish to control..and yet, won't tackle a life threatening issue...such as the chemical companies...their accidents and security, or lack thereof.... Excuse the pun, but to me, this is all a smoke screen for American's who have a real issue with controling others.... Again...smoking is a dirty, bad habit, and I wish I didn't smoke, but I do and it was a bad choice on my part...but should I get fired b/c of it...? NO! And if I did, I think out of frustration and being so blasted tired of being reminded to be politically correct....I'd sue back...and that's what has to start happening to wake people up...I think? |
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Larry C
since 2001-09-10
Posts 10286United States |
Could somebody scrape my jaw off the floor? Denise is a smoker! Well I gotta say she's one of the nicest I've ever met. Dang...If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
yup, yup, we smokers look just like people who don't smoke, and shock...some of us are pretty nice to....possessing concern for others....hehe |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Christopher: quote: Should or can? Without getting mired too deep in the quagmire of civil rights law, those you listed are protected classes. Smokers are not. Until they are, then private companies may do pretty much as they please. By the way ... next time you confuse Pete and I, I'm the ugly one.  Brad: quote: I bore and irritate you? Why haven't you told me this before? I feel like I don't even know you anymore! Jim |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Well Jim, I have known you to irritate and cause other discomfort to Brad but boring ... no I don't recall that  |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
John, I'd like to think that 'hate' might be a bit over the top, but smokers have definitely been put in the 'not politically correct category'. quote: hehehe...good one, Titia. I've had a few bosses like that! No, we'll never be as lucky as your sheep because I think the world WANTS us extinct! Even sheep get more respect and they don't smell that great either! Hush, no one's saying or pretending that it isn't harmful. Starting to smoke was probably the stupidest thing I ever did and if I could go back and undo it I would. I think it's great that there is the anti-smoking campaign out there to educate kids about never starting and I encourage everyone I know who attempts to quit. Some have been successful and I'm happy for them. Some haven't been, like myself. That's just the reality of it. And it's not a cop-out about the damage being irreversible after 25-30 years of smoking and if you're going to get a serious disease, you're going to get it whether you quit or not at that point. I even heard one doctor put it at 10-15 years. But sure, someone can exaserbate another existing condition by continuing to smoke, like in your mom's case. I may get sick from it, or not, I may die from it, or not. I don't know and neither does anyone else. My parents smoked and died from other unrelated causes. My husband's grandfather smoked all his life (those old filterless ones), and drank like a fish, and lived to be a hale and hearty 98 years old. I think genes may be more of a determining factor in health and longevity than our unhealthy habits, not that they don't play a part. One thing is certain. We're all going to die from something someday. And most of us are going to use our health care for one ill or another, especially as we get older. And all of us will someday have someone cashing in our life insurance policy. quote: Lee, yep, I think it's called fascism. Larry, Titia, Lee and I are very nice people (just don't try hiding our cigarettes! ) |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
yup, I'm like a bear with a sawed off paw without...but quiting is always an option... Denise, all kidding aside...in my dating days, (bout 3 years ago) you wouldn't believe the people who said..."I hate smokers!" and by God, they really meant it???? I hope if I quit...I'm always reminded of the looks, comments and nasty "wish you weren't in my space stares"  and for those of you who might deem us terrible people b/c we smoke...seriously, I know it's not healthy and it kills, but not nearly to the extent that "they" would have you believe. At this point in time, there are far more issues to be concerned with...give the smoker's a break, they're people to? And this 2nd hand smoke thing...well, seriously think about it...then think about all the exhaust from cars...factories, chemical plants, coal...etc...They've actually convinced people to hate smokers....and smokers are not the real problem... |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Exactly. The one time I was in San Diego (and promptly got a chest infection from the foul air) I was harassed a few times for smoking. So I'd looked around at the haze and remarked 'Hey, at least I have a filter. Lord knows you need one here.' The accosters didn't take that too kindly, muttering and granting dark peacenik stares as they hobbled away on their frayed hemp sandals. |
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Larry C
since 2001-09-10
Posts 10286United States |
Hey, My primary issues with smokers are the butts on the road. I learned to accept people for who they are decades ago. It's just funny the things you assume about people based on pieces of information. Denise, you are such an awesome defender of God that it never occured to me that you might be a smoker. I have much family history with smokers and have lost a number of people I miss terribly to early deaths because of it. Trying to categorize people is the shortest path to prejudice and misunderstanding. A side note - when I hang out with the smokers at work to discuss business, they ask if I'm taking up smoking because no one else will be around them then. I say nope, just taking up second hand smoking. If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again. [This message has been edited by Larry C (02-01-2005 12:55 PM).] |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
'I know it's not healthy and it kills, but not nearly to the extent that "they" would have you believe. At this point in time, there are far more issues to be concerned with...give the smoker's a break, they're people to? And this 2nd hand smoke thing...well, seriously think about it...then think about all the exhaust from cars...factories, chemical plants, coal...etc...' No, seriously, this is the attitude I'm talking about. It is as harmful as "they" would ahve you believe- just like McDonald's is as unhealthy as "they" would ahve us believe. I'm not supporting the actions of this company- I think it's a terrible invasion into personal rights- your (and my) personal right to light up, or to smash on a burger. But saying that 2nd hand smoke isn't really all that bad is ridiculous... I mean, yeah, air pollution in general is awful, but the next time somone parks their car in a bar and lets it run, let me know. Smoking is a terrible source of indoor air pollution- I used to work in bars and the stench on my clothes at the end of the night was terrible. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to do it- smoking is banned in bars here in T-town as well, and I think it's retarded. But offer a smoke free section, and at least admit that your waitress is going to ahve to face the consequences of you smoking just as much as you will. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Hush, hi, and good day to ya I believe that 2nd hand smoke can be affective if, a child grows up and his parents smoke in the house...for 2 - 18 years and the child is constantly breathing in that smoke, (depending on the genes and if cancer was present in prior relatives) however, if your walking down the street, or in a bar for a night, and someone next to you is smoking...no, I do not nor will anyone convince me that 2nd hand smoke is going to cause them cancer, thank you very much. hehe I mean, the media actually has people in fear of that, and convinced and brain washed to hate smokers. And smokers are not nearly the cause of so many deaths realated to many different kinds of cancers today. Beside, you wouldn't believe the amount of smokers that have quit!!!! So, I'm being very serious when I say, Americans should really start looking in other areas why cancers are excellerating and killing. And I mean that with my heart. And my first indication would be the foods & meds we digest (chemicals, hormones, sugar substitutes, flours)...second would be the envirnment where we live (chemicals in water treatment plants, chemicals they use in lakes to kill algea and weed grasses), and third would be pollution...quit candidly, they don't want you to know, and what better smoke screen then cigs...no pun intended...hehe |
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Capricious Member
since 2002-09-14
Posts 89California, USA |
quote: My grandfather smoked for fifty years and quit, cold turkey, in one week when he was hospitalized for triple bypass surgery. His logic was "If I went for a week without a cigarette, I reckon I've quit." My grandmother, who had smoked for about the same fifty years, subsequently quit in respect of my grandfather's decision. I'm not saying you've never tried to quit, Denise, or that smoking is not a difficult habit to break. I'm saying that you CAN quit - when you say that you, or anyone else, "will never be able to give it up," you really mean "will never give it up." You ARE able. quote: Actually, the human body has amazing recuperative properties, so long as the source of the toxins no longer exists. You'd be amazed at the difference between the lungs of a current smoker and one who quit only two years ago. The problem with smoking is that it lays down the crap faster than your body can clean it up. It's kind of the equivalent of eating McDonald's every day, three times per day, and not being able to adjust your exercise level to compensate. You're going to get fat, but it's not permanent if your eating habits change! |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I agree with you, Amy - smoking's terrible for you and those around you no matter what light you put it in. Comparing it to something as bad or worse doesn't make it any less harmful. No "buts" either. (pardon the pun) It's bad or worse. Period. But this isn't a topic about whether smoking is bad for you. This is a topic about the rights of a company to either not hire (Ron brought up a very good point regarding legislating that) or discontinue employment due to smoking habits. I stand by the following that should disallow this practice in as much as it can be legislated.
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Alas, my friend, I am a flawed human being, Larry! No big surprise there!Capricious, no, you don't know me very well. I am not able. I am not saying I will never...it just hasn't happened yet and if it is up to me and my will power, it won't happen. I don't have any. I heard that the average New Year's Resolution lasts about 6 months. For me it's more like 6 minutes. If it's going to happen for me it will have to be by the grace of God. He is able, I'm not. I'm definitely open to a miracle! But how was your quitting experience? Any techniques that you found particulary helpful when your will power started to evaporate that you could share that might be encouraging? That's next on the agenda, Christopher. It has been a slow process over the past 10-15 years or so to get where we are today. First it was smoking sections inside, then it slowly but surely changed to smoking outside only in some places, now bars, restuarants, and every building (private and public) in some cities, next it will be anywhere outside in the open air, just like in Princeton, NJ where you can only smoke INSIDE your own house (not outside in your yard or on your porch or in your car), and now an employer who will get away with firing employees for even smoking at all, even in their own house. The next logical step, seems to me, is making it illegal. It may take a few years, but I see it coming. I think everything that we have seen taking place is only the prelude to making it illegal. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: If any other drug was introduced with so many alarmingly negative effects and so incredibly few benefits, the public would be up in arms in a heartbeat. It should be illegal. But then, so too should alcohol, and we all know how well THAT worked. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
But people are such slow learners, Ron. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
“Alcohol 'as harmful as smoking' Alcohol causes almost as many deaths and disabilities globally as smoking or high blood pressure, researchers warn. An international team of scientists, writing in the Lancet, point out alcohol is a factor in about 60 different diseases. The researchers found 4% of the global burden of disease is attributable to alcohol, compared to 4.1% to tobacco and 4.4% to high blood pressure. And they said that increasing alcohol prices in the UK could cut deaths. The scientists were critical of the UK, saying that it had not implemented effective alcohol control policies. The UK is about to introduce legislation allowing 24-hour drinking from later this year. “ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4232703.stm |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
I suppose what it all comes down to is opinion...and when something like this happens, it infringes on an individual's rights. Yes, I am a smoker and would like to quit, but..it is difficult to do so. Let me say, that I hope I am always a courteous smoker so that it never offends someone, unless of course, that someone is being annal, by walking by and simply being disguested by the smell of my cigerrette, to me...that person has a control problem, or the media and government and people have caused them so much duress and fear over somthing this is yes, bad for you, but not nearly as bad as the consuptions of others things which society ingests every single day. Chemicals to me, are the killer...drugs second nature, and drinking but the effects of all those nuclear tests back in the 40's are still present. Not one scientist can predict how long a chemical stays in the ground once it is there. Do you own a deck? I suggest you think about the toxins in every piece of wood that holds your deck together...when it rains, those toxins are slowly washed into the ground waters, streams, rivers and oceans. You have no idea...all over the poconos, everyone wants a crystal clear lake...they hire chemical companies to come in and treat those lakes....telling you, they are safe to swim in...and you cannot imagine the amount of fish floating dead on the surface after each treatment...SAFE? I think not...not to mention, this to, is washing into the ground waters...adding, the Poconos in PA is a very large parcel of land...there are no sewage treatment plants...and all that stuff is washing into the ground...you should see how close the septic tanks are to everyones drinking wells...it's absolutely a disgrace! And so...you decide...which is worse...smoking is most certainly a contributor...but, it is used as a smoke screen and blamed for a large amount of deaths due to cancers...think about it for once, do you see a rise in cancerous brain tumors? How many of them smoke...believe me...there are less and less smokers every year..which is a good thing...but smokers are not the cause of all cancers and brain tumors, and somewhere along the way, someone better wake up...b/c we are ruining our home and natural resources. 2nd hand smoke??? Shhhheeessshhhh! This to me, is an insult to intellegence.... |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
You're right, Lee. That knife sticking out of your back is meaningless and trivial as long as people still have shotguns. Cold, hard steel embedded in human flesh is no more than a nuisance compared to a 12-gauge. The ability of the human mind to justify itself simply astounds me. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Smoking should be illegal. As unpopular as it is these days, it may very well happen. Of course, marijuana is illegal and it's almost as easy to come by as cigarettes... |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Chris- we actually agree with each other. I've said several times I don't think a company should be able to hire or fire based on personal legal practices that occur off the clock. But it just bugs me to listen to the smokers insisting it's really not that bad. I have a confession. I love McDonald's. I love red meat. And do I ever love deep-fried stuff. Guess what- every time I eat that crap, I'm lining myself up for coronary heart disease, or a stroke, or a heart attack. And Lee, you're right- every time I eat something with red dye # whatever, I'm setting myself up for cancer. But I'm not denying it. Tell me someone who works in a smoke filled bar five nights a week for years on end won't end up with adverse affects. I mean, they might not... but then, they might. By all means, smoke all you want- it's your right, as it should be. I wouldn't object to you paying a higher health insurance premium for it, but then I guess I couldn't bitch if they gave me a dollar menu hike on mine, huh? |
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Paul Wilson
since 2002-07-07
Posts 4711United States |
I guess next this health care company will fire any of their employees that decide to eat something that's not healthy like a big bowl of ice cream or maybe fire people for what they wear.... When will it stop? Never if we as individuals don't stand up for our rights...Paul ~~To share my poems with you is to share my heart with you~~ |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Your all coming in loud and clear, and your opinions on smoking are to be respected, actually, I'm the hipocrate...as it says in the Bible, treat your bodies as a temple...shheeeshhh, guess I've fallen way short on that one... As far as someone working in a smoke filled bar...I cannot argue that one either... Insurance rates...well, gotta admit, you do have a point...but...my argument in that is, in the end we all die of something, there is no escaping death...and when all of our times come...there are medical bills regardless if we smoked or not... I suppose bottom line and argument I'm trying to make here is this.... I'm a nice person, and a good employee...yet, bad girl as I am...I do smoke, do take my two 15 min. breaks and lunch outside in our designated smoking area...and it does not affect my performance as an employee or as a human being. I'll go even one better, won't smoke in my own house...yup...can't stand the smell in my cloths, towels, walls, furniture, curtains, etc....and try to be very consciensce around those who do not smoke. I can't do anymore then that, other then quit...and I honestly don't think that's going to happen any time soon. And so, all I can do, is the best I can to sufice for others who it offends...but firing someone for smoking, is going way to far. And, as ridiculous as it sounds, and as others have suggested here in a humorous way...if this persists, it will open a very large can of worms for loosing other rights... No matter, if you agree with smoking or not...think about whats really happening here...forget about your opinions towards smoking and smokers just for a second, and realize, the implications here and the what if's....this is serious...our rights are slowly dwindling away from us one, by one.... Hugs to all of you Me |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
smiling at the "not smoking in your own home because....." and I see many people around here on their porches when it is snowing and ice cold out doing the same.. why is that I wonder...not just because of the odor etc..but because it is a health risk for their children... (former smoker/quit over 25 years ago when I got a flu or something that made it hard to breath and smoke too...and I had laryngitus after for a year..partially caused by smoking and damaging my vocal chords temporarily and had to go to a therapist paying 50/an hour back then to regain my voice..felt stupid when others there had lost their voice boxes due to cancer and smoking and here I was only with laryngitus) It usually takes something serious healthwise Lee, to make someone stop smoking, will power works but sometimes you relapse. I swore once cigarettes cost more than 50 cents a pack I was quitting and I did. But now I see there are small cigar/cigarettes and generic brands to fill that gap and cost less making the price no obstacle to smoking...just a few thoughts. I don't mind going into places where there is smoking, in fact I thought it was "funny" how the non smokers section of restaurants has become the largest sections now ...when it first started it took awhile to get a seat if you didn't smoke and I use to say give us the first available so we didn't have to wait so long. First seeing if they would like to stop smoking and get the help needed would make more sense..and not hiring should be the option of the company. They do drug testing for some of the least paying jobs today and fingerprinting and background checks for abuse and criminal behaviors... I don't know how they can fire someone but I am sure they could make it so uncomfortable that some would quit..they could say no smoking at all on their company property and unless there is a property close by that someone can go on for their break then what do you do? Just thoughts ... M |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: quote: Preserving our rights as citizens is a good thing, and heaven knows there are more than a few in danger right now. The right to employment, however, isn't one of them. You have no such right. Never have had. Apart from a few important laws about discrimination, you don't even have a right to be treated fairly by your employer. You don't like your job? Find another. Because you can be very certain, if they don't like an employee, they too will try to find another. Just as you don't need a good, fair reason to quit . . . they don't need a good, fair reason to fire. The only controls are those placed by the market. You get too fussy about a job and you'll go without work. They get too fussy about employees and they'll go out of business. Unfortunately for both employees and employers, the market doesn't much care for individuals, and it sure doesn't grant us any rights. Wouldn't it be cool if society treated alcohol the way it has come to treat tobacco? Instead of telling people they "can't" drink, which clearly didn't work when it was tried, we just make it more difficult, more expensive, and more demeaning. If nothing else, we could take a cue from the smoking sections in restaurants and institute drinking- and non-drinking-roads. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
OMG Ron, poooolize don't say that...yesterday was my first beer in years...had a Yuengling Lager, frosted mug, icy cold....yummy it was great with all that comfort food during the game...????? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
The game, yes the game  Well, when you live in Philadelphia, you get used to losing. At least now His Honor doesn't have to pay for a parade. That should help his budget crises that he's always talking about. Ah geeze, Lee, you're not a hypocrite. The hypocrite is the one who says that they have no faults (or at least none as bad as that other person over there). Remember the parable of the two guys in the Temple? The first was way up at the front bragging to God what a wonderful person he was, the other down on his knees, not even daring to look up, admitting to God that he was a lousy rotten sinner. Which one was said to have gone down to his house justified? The sinner, of course, since it is only the sinner who sees their true condition and need for God's grace. The self-righteous can't see their need and therefore don't think they need God's grace. They've got it all-together, they think, and therefore seek and receive nothing from God, who lavishes His grace on the humble. I drink about 2 or 3 beers a year and Yuengling is my favorite too! Hey girl, we've got to get together! How about Liz's house soon? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
"In Heaven, Some little blades of grass Stood before God." http://poetry.poetryx.com/poems/4665/ |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Thanks, John! Perfect! |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I don't think it has to be an either-or situation, Denise. One can thank God for not having killed anyone this week, which many would certainly see as self-righteous, while still asking for the strength to not sin in a thousand other ways. Curiously enough, I suspect both prayers will be heard. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
they (the prayers) might be heard, but what's the answer?  |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
I think the answer would be...personal dedication...in other words, making rules to self...try very hard to follow them...because when we're good to us, we're then good to God...making promises to self, also makes a promise to God? Can you imagine, if it's true...and we each have our own protective angel watching over us...wull, all I can say is that dudes sure got his work cut out for him...right? hehe In my case...poor guy, he must be awfully happy when I go to sleep at night...hehe |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I think you may have missed the point of the story, Ron. According to the Bible, we don't have what it takes to make ourselves righteous in the eyes of God. The Law requires perfection, and none of us can claim that. We've all blown it, and will continue to blow it in one way or another. We can't receive God's righteousness, the only kind acceptable to God, which he bought for us with the blood of His Son, and which is freely given through faith in the finished work of Christ, when we are busy trying to establish a righteousness of our own, thinking that will be acceptable to Him. The first man thought he was fulfilling the law, and thought he was acceptable in the eyes of God based on his performance, didn't think he needed anything from God, and was therefore proud. The second guy knew he couldn't perform the requirements of the Law, and was therefore humble, and threw himself on the mercy and grace of God. Self-righteous acts don't gain us any brownie-points with God. And remember the Bible says if we've broken even one command, we've broken all of them. Even if we haven't murdered someone, have we lied, cheated, stolen, gossiped, harbored bitterness or resentment? Jesus even said that we are guilty of murder, under the Law, if we harbor hatred in our hearts. So self effort under the Law is not the way to have a right standing before God. As Paul said in the third chapter of Galatians: quote: And that ends our Bible study for today. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I'm sure I miss a great many points, Denise, but I don't think this particular story was ever intended as a license for you to judge others. Do you really think Jesus shared this story so you could label one person self-righteous and another not? Even if you understood the point of the story, I don't think you are using it as it was meant to be used. "And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:" The Pharisee was righteous in the law and despised others. I honestly have to wonder if it is any less dangerous to be righteous in faith when it still leads so many to despise others? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
? I was simply relaying the point of the parable, Ron. When we trust in our selves, we are self-righteous, which leads to pride and when we can see our true condition as a sinner we are humbled by it and call on God's mercy and grace. Whom am I labeling, judging or despising? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
"Too Heavy? You're Fired" "ATLANTIC CITY, N.J. — The Borgata Hotel Casino & Spa has told cocktail servers if they pack on too many pounds, they'll get an unpaid suspension to lose the weight — or be fired. The policy will apply to anyone gaining more than 7 percent of their body weight; weight gain related to pregnancy or a medical condition will be exempt, casino officials said. The company will pay to put the offender through a weight-loss program during the up-to-90-day suspension. The policy was laid out in a letter to employees last week — and has infuriated some women's advocates." http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,147994,00.html You knew it was coming. . . |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
well, this should infuriate everyone...you know when this stops...when people stop buying into it...stop buying the Enquire, let these people alone and worry about your own life...instead of feeding off gossip and demanding women look like tooth pics...this is Insane John...literally insane...like it doesn't matter what's inside a person anymore, long as on the outside, they look like 17 year old children?????? I cannot believe people are so idiotic and buy into these trends... But of course, that's what it's all about anymore...product and demand? Yes? |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Quick show of hands. How many of you want to marry an ugly person? Are you really so eager to crawl into bed with Quasimodo every night for the rest of your life? |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
My wife did, but my hump doubles as an end table when company comes over so she puts up with me. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
me me me! oh, wait. I thought you said bury an ugly person. egowhores.com - really love yourself. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
LOL. My point, of course, is that our standards aren't so much defined by commercialism as our commerce is defined by our standards. Our instinct to pass along our genes has created a correlation between beauty (not important to reproduction) and health (very important to reproduction) that bleeds over into everything we do. That bouncy eighteen-year-old is perceived as sexy, in large part, because our chromosomes interpret it as good health. And over several thousands of years, those chromosomes have been right often enough that they have come to dominate. The people who chose ugly, unhealthy mates didn't have quite as many surviving children. Culture, of course, is still an influence on our perceptions of beauty, but I honestly think it's less of an influence than many would pretend. The anorexic Twiggy-look* never lasts long because we instinctively know undernourished waifs generally make poor breeders. Beauty, I believe, is more about health than about anything else. As long as men want to be free to choose their wives, and as long as women want to have "beautiful babies," employers are going to continue exercising their prerogative to make the same kinds of choices. * Twiggy, circa 1967, weighed 91 pounds and was five-feet, seven inches tall. Models today stand five-feet, eleven-inches tall and weigh 117 pounds. The average woman, however, is five-foot four-inches tall and weighs 140 pounds. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
May be a bit sexist, but this is something I've found to be tried and true. Look not so much for beauty, but culinary finesse. Trust me, you'll be happier and healthier in the long run. So says Jimmy Soul in 'If You Wanna Be Happy'.As for this topic, discrimination is discrimination, plain and simple. Of course, most businesses and companies don't put such into policy, instead relying on the old standby 'we reserve the right to terminate employment at any time, for any reason, without giving reason or notice.' Unless they put discriminatory policy in writing, good luck prosecuting discrimination, which goes against state and federal law. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Similar wording seems to apply to most human relationships, wouldn't you say, Ali? It's certainly applied to all of mine, especially the no "reason or notice" part. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
there's always a reason and always a notice. you often don't know the former and more often get the notice at the time of termination (or when you find all your clothes out on the porch)...  egowhores.com - really love yourself. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
“Even a good man prefers the company of an attractive woman.” Diane Wakowski |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Hey Ron...you find me a good man, and I'll get a complete makeover....hehehhehe Now guys, I know, there are lotsa good men out there, so don't get your shorts in an uproar... There are just not a lot of "single" good men living in Pennsylvania....??? |
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