»
Discussion
»
The Alley
»
the video
| The Alley |
|
the video |
|
Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia 
|
I listened to and read bin Laden's newest video message, and am appalled that the TV news media only mentioned it briefly in terms of its possible impact on the election. I think everyone should read what this man actually said. For your own sense of security, your own desire to survive this war, go watch PBS, and READ the transcript at al Jazeera, the Arab news media...you can read it in English. Don't count on the standard media political spin washing machines for your knowledge. |
||
| © Copyright 2004 Kathleen Kacy Stafford - All Rights Reserved | |||
Mistletoe Angel 
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I've been out all day with activism, from co-leading a No on 26-64 rally to my weekly PPRC rally. Therefore I am just learning of this breaking news, and want to get the raw, honest detail behind this. Can you provide your suggested link to me so I can read the content of the speech in its organic form before comparing to the mainstream form? Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
||
|
Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
www.aljazeera.net I read WNN and al jazreera almost every day, as well online news from Israel, Korea, China, India, Africa, Australia and Europe. It's amazing how distorted the American media can be in its presentations and POV. BTW, I also read the Washington Post, who actually posted the video info before it came out on the world News Network. In addition, the current Administration had leaned on aljazeera and asked them to NOT air the video, they rightfully declined the coercive request. Thanks for asking, Noah. www.washingtonpost.com is the best American source (MHO) http://www.wnnetwork.com/ |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
thanks Kacy. I was just coming back to ask for a link. y'psychic thang you.  |
||
|
Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
LOL, you're welcome, serene queen. |
||
|
Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
When you go to aljazeera, look at the top left, click on the English link, unless you read Arabic. LOL, not many Americans do. |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
*chuckle* after two minutes of trying to transcribe shorthand, that's exactly what I did. (It does resemble the old Gregg method)  thanks again, Kace! |
||
|
Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
LOL, I know what you mean, I tried to master both Hebrew and Arabic, succeeded in neither. I never even tried Gregg. (but he was really cute!) LOL |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Hebrew? (serenity brightens up) We have to talk, my sister! although I'm still working on the alphabet-- aleph bayet ghimel daleth...  but do drop me a line! (sorry for this chatty interruption, folks) |
||
|
Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
hay, vav... ok, sis, howzbout tomorrow? I lived in Israel for a year, and though I'm rusty, I'll throw you a few phrases in an email. 'leila tov' is one of my faves... means good night also, loh nachone! = no way jose! LOL |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
YAY! send 'em on! gawd I love ya! gleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee |
||
|
Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
I agree with what you're saying but you have to admit it is rather interesting, that suddenly, just in time for the election a tape pops up, not the audio recordings we've become used to but the first visual sighting of Osama in years. shrugs As for hebrew, i attempted but never managed to learn the language though i am absolutely rivetted by the sytems of gematria and more so notariqon used in the analysis of holy texts |
||
|
Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
huh? LOL, what were those terms? gematria and notariqon? meaning symbols? |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
grin Raph knows WHY I study Hebrew... smile |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Is there any question that bin Laden's animosity derived/s from the “alliance” the United States has with Israel, ( an alliance spanning many years and different administrations)? So how do we assuage his anger and that of his followers? John P.S. "The following comments reflect the balance of opinion we have received so far: Perhaps I'm being too cynical but something just doesn't ring true about this tape. The quality is too good compared with previous tapes. The timing is very interesting, I had predicted that something would happen this week. Producing OBL in person would be too obvious ... is this the next best thing ... is it really him? Who has most to gain from this tape? It's all too much of a coincidence and is too slick for my liking Paul, Milton Keynes How convenient. This can only help Bush. Sandra Rutter, USA” http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/3966857.stm That Devil Bush! |
||
|
Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
grins at K |
||
|
Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Kacy? Hard to explain but here's the best decription i can muster. Gematria is linked to numerology, each letter in the hebrew alphabet has a numerical value. By determining the sum of certain words another word or secret is revealed. A famous example is Genesis 18:2 "and lo, three", scholars believe these were three of the archangels and when using gematria the arithmetic equivalent is the sentence "these are Michael, Gabriel and Raphael" Notariqon is much more complicated, each letter in the Hebrew alphabet is also a word itself. For example A/Aleph = Ox. By choosing a word, one can then expand on its meaning letter by letter, forming other words and sentences. For example the 'In the beginning' of Genesis can be expanded to 'In the beginning Elohim saw that Israel would accept the law' the reverse is true where sentences can be shortened into smaller words. |
||
|
Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
John, everyone seems to have their own interpretation of Osama's intent and what effect the video might have on the election. I can't read his mind, but don't believe his intent had anything to do with trying to manipulate any votes. If you heard or read what he said, he doesn't make any distinctions between Bush and Kerry when it comes to his actions. I believe his message is simple: he is putting us all on notice, that no matter who gets elected, al Quida will continue its agenda as long as we continue to 'antagonize' Muslims. Of course, I don't agree with his overall assessment of US policy, but I cannot control what that man and his followers thinks or does. And now, because of our actions in Iraq, we have created another generation of Osamas who are willing to blow themselves up just to get at us. I have absolutely no doubt that video is real, and that it was probably made within the past few days or weeks. What no one seems to want to talk about is what Osama said about Bush's delayed reaction/response that fateful day, how Bush sat there in that classroom and didn't respond immediately, and that time delay allowed Atta and the others sufficient time to do in not only the second tower, but also the Pentagon (and he would have done in the White House were it not for those brave passengers that sent that plane into the ground.) Just watch the video, read/listen to the two or three available translations, and file it in your Terrorism 101 course book. oh, and CYA...cover your derriere, everyone is fair game these days As for assuaging him or his followers? They are too far gone. But for the thousands of others who sympathize with the plight of the Palestinians, Lebanese, Muslims in general? 'twould take a major shift in policies and mindset, a major change in the way we (and other countries)do business in this world, a major change in how we powerful nations go about controlling the rest of the world. [This message has been edited by Midnitesun (10-30-2004 03:04 AM).] |
||
|
Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Raphie, that makes it as clear as mud. LOL. I know very little about numerology, but do recall something about number/word correlations...kinda like deciphering a CIA report or a government press release. LOL Thanks for the info, I'll probably research it in my spare time while I'm waiting for a job. Yep...unemployed since Feb (my choice initially, but have been seeking work for over two months in Oregon's crappy job market) Later.... |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Midnitesun, “I believe his message is simple: he is putting us all on notice, that no matter who gets elected, al Quida will continue its agenda as long as we continue to 'antagonize' Muslims.” By our “alliance” with Israel which existed before Iraq and will, unless our “policies” change, after. “What no one seems to want to talk about is what Osama said about Bush's delayed reaction/response that fateful day, how Bush sat there in that classroom and didn't respond immediately, and that time delay allowed Atta and the others sufficient time to do in not only the second tower, but also the Pentagon (and he would have done in the White House were it not for those brave passengers that sent that plane into the ground.)” The delay was, as I recall, some eight minutes, and there were already hundreds if not thousands, (or more), who were already reacting, as their training and experience dictated. What was Bush supposed to do? The authorities in New York did not need the President of the United States to tell people to get out of the buildings. Even if Bush had some secret weapon in his own hand that could strike at the speed of light, he, like everybody else, (including generals whose everyday job it is), wouldn’t have known with confidence what and where to shoot. Did the 9/11 commission miss something? “As for assuaging him or his followers? They are too far gone. But for the thousands of others who sympathize with the plight of the Palestinians, Lebanese, Muslims in general? 'twould take a major shift in policies and mindset, a major change in the way we (and other countries)do business in this world, a major change in how we powerful nations go about controlling the rest of the world.” Which comes, as it always will, back to our continued support for the state of Israel, (I think countries like France and Germany have already made the changes). John |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
“America needs the world's watchful eyes on our election. I am afraid that "Bush" is going to hijack the elections in America. These latest videos are the Bush Administrations attempt to scare voters into voting for him. Please be our eyes and ears! C. Proctor, Seattle, WA USA” "I want you to vote for Kerry, so if you want to combat me, vote Bush!". This is the simple message that even a child can spot as pro-republican propaganda. Just the last rabbit extracted from Bush's hat at the right time. Are voters so stupid to swallow similar rubbish? Maurice, UK” http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/3966857.stm I hope no one has closed the file on the Kennedy assassination; just who was that on the grassy knoll. . . |
||
|
Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Well, those people who think it's a political hoax have their opinion, as I said, I don't agree. The timing is the ONLY thing about that message from bin Laden that makes it seem suspicious, not what he actually said. He says it doesn't matter to him, whether it be Kerry or Bush, only the end result of a policy shift will deter further strikes against the US and ANY other country that supports the Israeli hardline position on the Palestinians. And we have to understand, what's happening in Iraq is not just about Israel. Now of course, we have Arafat's illness throwing another curve ball during the last inning of our political ballgame. Is someone going to suggest an ulterior motive here too? LOL. Probably. Not everyone loves Israel. WHOA! does that surprise anyone? not everyone loves the US of A either. There was always plenty enough hatred to go around out there, just waiting for someone like Osama to be the incendiary spark. It IS NOT just about Israel however, that there are so many Muslims willing to pick up a gun or rock and strike out at Christians, Buddhists, atheists, Jews...even other Muslims. They are not killing just Americans, but virtually anyone they PERCEIVE to be working against their goals, anyone worldwide whom they perceive to be unfair to Muslims. You can't lump it all into one single cause/effect, even though Osama attempts to justify his actions because of the US/Israeli favoritism connection. He specifically spoke of Lebanon and Afghanistan, and the 1982 bombings by Israel that took out 'towers' in Lebanon. John, I would NEVER suggest the world should abandon Israel. It has a right to be a free sovereign nation, and for many years, the borders stayed 'relatively' quiet with Arab neighbors, especially Jordan and Egypt. Those two countries finally got it figured out Israel was here to stay. Syria was always a problem, as were many other Arab countries. I lived there for a year, and even with occasional shootings and bombings, most Israelis and tourists went about their day feeling 'somewhat' secure. But it's a constant battle to maintain that security, and some of the Israeli militant right-wing activities have taken some wrong actions in the past 20 years, that have aggravated and escalated the violence. There isn't any black/white solution. The Palestinian issue must be resolved. The Israelis must be allowed to live in peace. If you have some golden solution, by all means, go over there and talk to those in leadership positions. Be proactive in a peace organization, be proactive in a human rights group, be part of some attempt at finding a viable solution. Don't just throw words and challenging questions around that go nowhere, solve nothing. I've heard more than enough rhetoric lately to last ten lifetimes. |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Midnitesun, My personal opinion is that, (after over fifty years of trying), a peaceful solution that all will accept, leaving Israel still existing, is not likely, unless possibly we can come to some tribute arrangement similar to what there is with Egypt, (in the form of billions of aid that otherwise would be spent elsewhere or not at all). I don’t even think that would work. Jews get bad press in the Koran, (Mohammed had hundreds executed); they’re considered among the worst of the unbelievers. Some good portion of the Moslem world will never accept Jews except under some dhimmitude in the land that is now Israel. There has to be a fundamental change of view, ( like that which occurred in Japan after WWII), in that part of the Moslem world which could only come by a war far larger than now, (which no one in the United States, other than Jews, would support for the sake of Israel), or a fraternization with the West that is an anathema to them. If we are unwilling to abandon Israel, we should now expect and accept bleeding with her. John P.S. In only half jest I once heard someone suggest moving all Jews from Israel to the Baja Peninsula which, there was confidence, would be shortly turned from desert to a prosperity by its new inhabitants. |
||
|
hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
I guess what really enrages me about this video is that he's trying to reason with us... trying to justify. I understand the point, but... I remember the horror of that day... and I didn't even know anybody who died, or who was there. How dare he try to advise us in the best way to "avoid" another attack? How dare he? The man responsible for the terror tries to give us some fatherly speech, a "Now, have you learned your lesson" speech... but all under the thinly veiled threat of another lesson. quote: Well, um, I'm not sure if anyone actually read the 9/11 commission report... I made it thru chapter one... and it gave me a whole new sense of eprspective on it. There were multiple failures in chain of command mass confusion among the faa, military that wasn't notified- they did something to us that we had never had done before and we didn't know how to handle that. And while I think Bush sitting there doing absolutely nothing, not even getting up to be further briefed, is appalling, I certainly don't believe he had some magic weapon or command that could ahve stopped these attacks. There's just no way. |
||
|
Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Well, John, we agree there needs to be some fundamental changes, however we don't agree on the methods. An ever growing expanding war will not bring peace. Peace isn't an end result, it's an ongoing process humans will be struggling with from now until there is no Earth. I've heard lots of those in-bad-taste jokes and remarks, and in more than one case, the brunt of the joke could just as easliy be changed to some other ethnic or religious or political name as the one to be sent away. All such remarks, to me, are forms of hatred and bigotry, and do absolutely nothing to stop hatred. While its true comedy can and often does help people break through barriers and it does alleviate pain, it's always at someone else's expense. In this particular case though, the intent is to prove the 'offending people needing removal' are perhaps the 'chosen ones' for a good reason after all.  You seem to delight in bringing such junk to these forums, and I wonder what your intent is with such posts. Are you suggesting we abandon Israel just becasue Osama would like us to do that? What exactly are your convictions on this? Are you just throwing these things out to incite, to ruffle some feathers? Or do you have a game plan, some hidden agenda? I prefer more straightforward dialogues, as that's the only way we can ever get past all this innuendo and accusatory crap that saturates the media. I'm going to say it one more time, I am voting for Kerry, it doesn't matter whether or not Osami approves, and I don't expect him (Kerry) to work miracles. Just to appraoch the world and the US's needs from a slightly different vantage point than Bush. I'd like all despots and terrorists to disintegrate, spontaneously combust. Ya, it's a fantasy. Meanwhile, I'll continue to work for peaceful solutions, to work for raising the standard of living EQUALLY for ALL citizens of this planet. I don't just consider myself an American, rather, a global citizen of Earth. Now that I'm done ranting a bit, LOL, let's just say, we have a great forum here, courtesy of Mr. Ron Carnell, in which to disagree in a safe and sane manner. |
||
|
Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
hush, I agree. Bush was in as much shock as the rest of the nation. But as commander in chief, why didn't he anticipate this possiblity and have a contingency plan? the writing was on the wall for a long time, and the signs were ignored. Of course it isn't Bush's fault that Osama struck when he did, it was planned long before and without any interest in who the president would be in 2001. None of us can afford to be complacent. And the how dare he? I thought that way to. But look at it this way, he DARES because he can. He knows what he intends to do next, we can only guess and hope we find out before another 9/11 event. Osama doesn't run my life, and certainly doesn't tell me how to vote. Thanks for joining in on this thread. |
||
|
Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Neither does he influence me. I voted over a week ago and defend my choice. And I am not thrilled with the fact Kerry is not quite anti-war and thus according to Osama will continue to influence terrorist attack instincts by promising to "hunt and kill the terrorists". However, knowing Nader is an insufficient choice who actually does represent my interests far more, I'll go with the one who will strike more selectively rather than go dancing around bombing Falluja and Najaf on and on. Kerry also strikes me as more sensible in approaching the issue of terrorism by believing we shouldn't let it dominate our lives and water-cooler conversations, while Bush believes otherwise. Here's the full transcript of his speech, by the way: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79C6AF22-98FB-4A1C-B21F-2BC36E87F61F.htm According to the transcript, if this is in fact an authentic tape and this is bin-Laden, he justifies the attacks on the World Trade Center towers to the 1982 permitting of Israel by America to invade Lebanon and seeing the destruction of two towers in the nation. Apparently he wanted to take the "rejection and tyranny" and mimic the emotions back at us by striking an identical pair of towers. All acts of terrorism are wrong and should be denounced, period. I believe as wrong as it was to allow an invasion like that 22 years ago, violent revenge is cruel, never solves anything and mentioning what he based his attack on doesn't change anything about how menacing and cold September 11th was. The bottom line here is, no matter if Bush or Kerry is elected, terrorism is not going to cease to exist. And we're not going to resolve the conflict by fighting fire with fire, we need to form some type of diplomacy that doesn't involve artificial arms. As for the rest of his speech, I think this tape could be spun both ways in the final three days of the campaign. I was thinking when I read the end of this transcript, "Did Osama see "Fahrenheit 9/11"? Mentioning Bush and his seven minutes of silence in a Florida second-grade classroom is quite coincidental, and it made me wonder if this is in fact a fake tape, this could intensely hurt the Kerry campaign and make it seem like a fabricated unilateral production to strike at Bush's credibility. I, myself, defend how Bush reacted the first seven minutes after the attack. I felt cold and silent inside for a while too. Tens of millions of us did. I cried to myself most of the day, though my following response unlike many others was not out of anger saying "Who did this, I want to get my hands on those guys and choke them and...", it was out of sadness that there are such menacing, hateful people in the world who'd even think of doing this, but throwing stones wouldn't amount to anything. No, I don't blame Bush for his first response after the attack. I blame him for his responses following that, after September 14th, etc. I was actually one of a majority of Americans who felt Bush was actually doing a good job leading the nation immediaely after the attack. I felt maybe the embracing-one-another atmosphere could last for more than a week and bring the world closer together. How I wish that was true, but Bush chose instead to lead with impatience, seething and impromptu. Should the former theory be the case, it could be over for Kerry and Bush will inevitably be re-elected. But this could work very well for Kerry too. Kerry and his colleagues could go out there and keep hammering out, "When we had Osama surrounded at Tora Bora, suddenly the president decided to invade Iraq, and let Osama get away. Now look at where we are. Osama is still at large, and because of the president's irresponsibility, Osama is threatening to attack America again." This will be an interesting story to see evolve by Tuesday. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
||
|
Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
I think it's important, when we speak of the middle-east, to realize Israel's role in the problem. I think for fear of an anti-semetic label we often coddle Israel in the west. Zionist extremists are as big a problem as Muslim extremists. Yitzhak Rabin learned this and Sharon may soon. As long as there are governments in the region who bow to either of these elements nothing will ever be resolved. |
||
|
Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Oh Raphael, I absolutely agree. I believe the Israel-Palestine situation is central to so many complications in the peace process in the world, and not just according to Osama but millions of others shows America has a unilateral, biased favor to the Israelis and is not taking to heart the importance of allowing Palestine to be free itself and have the right to its own state. From November 3 and onward, I think it's beyond important that we progressives keep preaching to our administration how necessary it is we eye a bi-lateral strategy to Israel-Palestine. I believe both nations, both cultures, both peoples should have the right to co-exist in this region. Both our candidates are "pro-Israel" and we need to see to it we educate how important it is we get a "pro-Israel, pro-Palestine" leader. If we can untie a fatal knot like this, this will untie many other knots of other conflicts in the world. Thinking like this only proves to me further how "everything is interconnected" Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
||
|
Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Thank you for your input Raph and Noah. Perhaps, we are ready to begin another Alley thread "Where do we go from here?" That would take some of the focus off bin Laden's video, which I never doubted to be real, and forward, towards some ideas from people such as yourselves, as to what the whole world should be doing, not just Israel and the US, to address these problems. That's the beauty of the internet, I believe it has a usefulness far beyond most people's expectations, for it allows cross-cultural dialogues that are not constantly stifled and restrained by political divisiveness. True, it does enter into the discussions, as evidenced here, but the net is a vehicle of freedom that we can put to good use, and I think most of the time, a great deal of misunderstanding can be brought to light by these kinds of discussions when everyone is honest and open, and respectful of other's opinions and life experiences. Anyway, I have a printed copy of the video text, downloaded from the Times of India. BTW, the tape had been delivered to the Pakistani office of aljazeera, in an envelope quietly dropped off without any fanfare, deliverd to the Ahmad Muaffaq Zaidan, Al Jazeera's bureau chief. No one recalls (or will tell?) just who handed it to the people at the front gate. |
||
|
Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
 I absolutely agree, Kacy! Talking about solutions on the same thread as an infamous videotape just doesn't sound right to me and should be seperated. Start it up, Kacy! Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
||
|
Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
"I believe it has a usefulness far beyond most people's expectations, for it allows cross-cultural dialogues that are not constantly stifled and restrained by political divisiveness" Well put Kacy. It's a shame really, with the exception of ancient Alexandria and the Renaisance, there has never been a greater resource of materials or merging of cultures and thought and yet... |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Midnitesun, “What exactly are your convictions on this?” My prejudices are in favor of Jews, especially those of Israel, but with my background that is easy; so I tried to leave my personal prejudice out of the conversation. “ Are you just throwing these things out to incite, to ruffle some feathers? Or do you have a game plan, some hidden agenda?” I want to force the hard look and conversations, if not personal decisions, there on. I just finished a few minutes ago eating dinner distracted by yet another of those sci-fi fantasies where humans are able to come to peace with a totally alien aggressive race they’ve just met without bloodshed through discussion. It’s a wonderful ideal, idea, but sometimes, like with the Nazi’s, that just will not work, because that race, creed, attitude, don’t see any point in honestly negotiating with those who to them are not worthy of life, let alone their company. What then? On a different thread I touched on it as regards Franklin Roosevelt’s actions, in opposition to a majority American attitude that was staunchly opposed to becoming involved in yet another European war, despite Mein Kampf , the newsreels, and what they could read in their own papers, ( In the epilogue of “World At War”, a much younger alive Stephen Ambrose related how after World War II there were many Americans who believed they had been suckered again). So I present the unpleasant for consideration. It makes things interesting. John P.S. You, (or anyone else), ever read a book titled “The Masada Plan”? Might make another interesting related thread. |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: One shouldn't confuse an assumption with an absolute. That no one successfully negotiated a settlement with Nazi Germany before declaring war only proves that no one successfully negotiated a settlement with Nazi Germany. It does NOT prove no one could. On the contrary. The eventual surrender of Germany WAS the result of negotiation, albeit an armed one, and proves without any question they were operating under the principles of self-interest. Anyone operating under that premise can be reached through negotiation. The difficulty is always one of persuasion. Hitler thought he could win more than he would lose, and no one convinced him otherwise until he had already lost so much he had nothing left to win. Contrast that with the Cold War that followed and ultimately lasted for decades. How has nuclear war been avoided for over fifty years? Because everyone has more to lose than to gain, and -- more importantly -- everyone believes it. Self-interest guides everyone. Negotiation is simply finding the right mixture of carrot and stick, and then convincing someone you can be trusted to execute BOTH just as you say you will. |
||
|
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Ron, What was left of Germany surrendered unconditionally, (so terrified of approaching avenging Soviet armies from the East that there was wide and panicked flight to the allies in the West. Hitler had shot himself. Nuremburg followed. What was left of Japan also surrendered unconditionally, (though they were given to understand they could keep the emperor in some form), after Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and declaration of war by the Soviet Union. Even then had it not been for the deified authority of only one man, the emperor, the Japanese, (in the opinion of Japanese of that time), would have suicidally fought on until millions more had died. Japan is a particularly interesting example in that in it was faced, (to most Westerners), a mystery and terror, a race trained from birth in a code/faith that passionately and in practice preferred death in suicidal attacks or suicide itself to surrender. John |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||
