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Huan Yi
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since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan

0 posted 2004-10-27 12:52 PM


Was President Franklin Roosevelt wrong in his actions,
as regards Germany and Japan, leading to America’s
participation in World War II?

John

[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (10-28-2004 09:01 PM).]

© Copyright 2004 John Pawlik - All Rights Reserved
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
1 posted 2004-10-27 03:31 AM


No, are you actually trying an historical comparison. Okay, how about this? FDR would have been wrong if after Pearl Harbor, he decided to invade Spain.

And then justify it because, well, they were fascist after all. They were going to attack us someday somewhere.


Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
2 posted 2004-10-27 07:43 PM


Brad,


"as regards Germany and Japan, leading to America’s
participation in World War II?"


John

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
3 posted 2004-10-27 09:12 PM


Brad, I think that was exactly his reasoning on Germany.

Krawdad
Member Elite
since 2001-01-03
Posts 2597

4 posted 2004-10-27 10:21 PM


What actions?  Your question is not specific.

FDR was anticipating and waiting for an attack on the US to stimulate the popular support he needed to declare war.
Pearl Harbor provided him with the opportunity.  The US population was isolationist before that happened.
Listen carefully the next time you hear his "Day of Infamy" speech and tell me you don't hear a well thought out response, not merely a reactionary bit of spit.  He knew it was coming.  It was his justification.

Does that answer your question?

Brad
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since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
5 posted 2004-10-27 10:22 PM


Boy, you guys are really confusing me. Whose reasoning?

Hitler declared war on America right after Pearl Harbor.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
6 posted 2004-10-28 12:12 PM


Brad,

“Churchill picked up the phone.  “Mr. President, what’s
this about Japan?”
“It’s quite true.  They have attacked Pearl Harbor.  We
are all in the same boat.”
“ This actually simplifies things.  God be with you.”
Churchill couldn’t help feeling great elation, now that
the United States was officially at his side….


Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop told Hitler that
General Oshima was demanding an immediate declaration of
war against America but reminded him that according to the
terms of the Tripartite Pact, Germany was bound to assist Japan
only in case she was directly attacked.

“If we don’t stand on the side of Japan, the pact is politically
dead,”  Hitler said.  “But that is not the main reason.  The chief
reason is that the United States already is shooting at our ships.
They have been a forceful factor in this war and through their
actions have already created a situation of war.””

John Toland
The Rising Sun


Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
7 posted 2004-10-28 12:23 PM


Krawdad,

“Does that answer your question?”

No

My question was:

Was President Franklin Roosevelt wrong in his actions,
as regards Germany and Japan, leading to America’s
participation in World War II?

John

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
8 posted 2004-10-28 12:24 PM


Oh FDR knew the attack was coming, the allied intelligence community was quite aware of the impending attack and both the State Department and Naval Intelligence recieved the information as early as March.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
9 posted 2004-10-28 12:33 PM


Aenimal,

And why did Japan, a country
already embroiled in a costly war in China for years,
attack America?

John

Brad
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since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
10 posted 2004-10-28 10:28 AM


Uh, blockade?  Sanctions?

Whatever you want to call it.


Aenimal
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since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
11 posted 2004-10-28 04:32 PM


The beauty of the Freedom of Information Act? It's all there if you're willing to read. Declassified memos include an 8 point plan written by naval intelligence's Lieutenant Commander Arthur McCollum on how to provoke Japan into attacking. All 8 points were adopted by FDR including, as Brad mentioned, sanctions and the oil embargo in 1941.

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (10-28-2004 05:12 PM).]

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
12 posted 2004-10-28 07:25 PM


So,
was President Franklin Roosevelt wrong in his actions,
as regards Germany and Japan, leading to America’s
participation in World War II?

John


PS Some 350,000 Americans were killed
in WWII.

[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (10-28-2004 09:01 PM).]

Aenimal
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since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
13 posted 2004-10-28 10:24 PM


He was right to help his allies against the spread of a nazi/fascist regime. He was wrong in waiting 2 years to help, and he was wrong in how he went about getting involved.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
14 posted 2004-10-30 05:34 AM


Aenimal,

“and he was wrong in how he went about getting involved”

And how else could he have gotten a vehemently isolationist
American population* involved?

John

*There was a survey done by the Chicago Tribune in
November, 1941 that found Americans by an 8 to 1
majority opposed to becoming involved in another
European war.

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
15 posted 2004-10-30 03:50 PM


quote:
And how else could he have gotten a vehemently isolationist
American population* involved?


I'm not sure, but I'd like to think there are better alternatives than allowing an attack on US citizens and soil. That 8-1 were against the war displays the faults of isolationalist thinking.

PS Canada didn't hesitate to join the war in Europe sending 1 million troops(nearly 10% of the total population) from 1939-45 including the 4th largest air force and the 3rd largest navy.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
16 posted 2004-10-31 12:28 PM


Aenimal,

“PS Canada didn't hesitate to join the war in Europe sending 1 million troops(nearly 10% of the total population) from 1939-45 including the 4th largest air force and the 3rd largest navy.”

As in 1914, because for them England was the Mother Country.  In fact many
still loyal Tories escaped/emigrated to Canada after the American Revolution.

"I'm not sure, but I'd like to think there are better alternatives than allowing an attack on US citizens and soil."

All accounts indicate no one in authority thought the Japanese
capable or stupid enough to attack Pearl Harbor, expecting the blow to fall
on the Philippines or  elsewhere instead.
They knew an attack was coming, but not where.

John


hush
Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
17 posted 2004-10-31 12:40 PM


Hey john... um... could you repeat the question please? I didn't read it the first eighty times.

Man, I feel like I'm in a broken record of history class.

a broken record of history class.

a broken record of history class.

hush
Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
18 posted 2004-10-31 12:42 PM


Seriously, it's one of those things that's hard to call. Right? Wrong? *Sigh* there was a genocide going on, and also a mass invasion of europe.

If I remember correctly, we beat Saddam down when he tried to invade somebody, and he didn't try to do it again.

Where's the comparision?

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
19 posted 2004-10-31 03:15 AM


"Now let us turn to the fateful period between November 27 and December 6, 1941. In this period numerous pieces of information came to our State, War, and Navy Departments in all of their Top ranks indicating precisely the intentions of the Japanese including the probable exact hour and date of the attack."
~Army report October 1944

For a timeline and what WAS known see the warnings section:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html


Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
20 posted 2004-10-31 09:32 PM


Yes, they knew an attack was coming, though not where,
and certainly not Pearl Harbor.  And it has been argued here,
and I agree, that that wherever attack was deliberately sought
so as to bring a reluctant nation into the conflict already
raging in the world.  I suspect it was also understood that
it had to be an attack involving Americans on a scale
larger than the sinking of a ship in the Mid-Atlantic
which had already happened.

What difference did it make?  What if Roosevelt had simply
sat back and busied himself with domestic issues?

John

Aenimal
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since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
21 posted 2004-10-31 10:17 PM


quote:
Yes, they knew an attack was coming, though not where,
and certainly not Pearl Harbor.


Did you read the warnings in the timeline? That information is the result of research into released documents/investigations thanks to the Freedom of Information Act. I've simply sent you one source but there are many books on the subject.

They knew, and were warned repeatedly that Pearl Harbour was the target.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
22 posted 2004-11-01 01:49 AM


I just did a cursory on the timeline you refer to.
While I have no issue with the chronology,
I would take issue with any speculation that Roosevelt
consciously and deliberately left Pearl Harbor unprepared;
that I believe was simple incredulity as to the prospect of attack there,
(as on the Panama Canal which was also suggested as a target),
ignorance, stupidity and bad luck.

As to McArthur, even his biographers can’t explain some
of his lapses, which include delays after Pearl Harbor
which left his air forces subject to destruction on the ground
at Clark and other airfields in the Philippines.

I have read Toland’s account in “The Rising Sun”.

But again,  What if Roosevelt had just kept out of it
as the overwhelming majority of Americans wanted?
What was our concern in Asia?  In Europe?
Why did it matter so much that he and his kind
felt the need to go to just lengths against the
wishes of their countrymen? And were they
justified.  Seems eventually Russia would have
won or at least kept Hitler in check.  Japan
was already stuck and trying to find an honorable
way to get out of China.  What the pressing need
that would eventually cost 350,000 Americans
their lives overseas?


John

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
23 posted 2004-11-01 08:33 AM


Take issue with what you will, the fact of the matter is that Pearl Harbour was specifically stated in warnings as the target of attack.

What pressing need? You mean aside from the obligation to assist your allies, protect your business/trade interests or hey, the moral dilema of allowing a fascist tyrant to gain control or exterminate a large portion of the world? None, none at all.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
24 posted 2004-11-01 08:48 AM


That the attack was a possibility, sure.

That he knew the day and time of the attack?

Are you kidding?

That he still pursued policies that spurred the attack, sure.

That he actually tried to make the attack happen, no.

If you've studied the time as extensively as I have (and I think both of you have), any other conclusions are simply wrong.


Aenimal
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since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
25 posted 2004-11-01 01:12 PM


http://prisonplanet.com/files_prove_fdr_fore_knowledge_pearl_harbor.html
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
26 posted 2004-11-01 07:48 PM


Aenimal,

We’ll just have to disagree.
Roosevelt’s purpose would have been served
just as well with all guns manned and planes
in the air.

John

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
27 posted 2004-11-01 08:06 PM


I took a quick look at the site, I see nothing that would change my earlier post.

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
28 posted 2004-11-01 11:30 PM


The following are excerpts I've personally taken from the NAVY COURT OF INQUIRY's REPORT: HEARINGS BEFORE THE JOINT COMITTEE ON THE INVESTIGATION OF THE PEARL HARBOR ATTACK dated 1946:

quote:
It is a matter of general knowledge that Japan has had for many years a thorough system of espionage throughout the world and continuously sought and received information regarding the location and movements of United States naval vessels. There were certain messages received in the Navy Department which showed very clearly that Japan, at this critical period, was particularly desirous of obtaining exact information from two sources, namely, Manila and Honolulu.

Messages between Tokyo, Manila, and Honolulu inquiring especially about planes, ships, their places of anchorage, etc., in the latter ports, were intercepted. Similar messages were sent to Japanese officials in Honolulu clearly indicating that Japan was most [6] desirous of obtaining exact information as to ships in Pearl Harbor.

The important messages having special reference to Pearl Harbor were as follows:

(a) On 15 November, 1941, Document 24, Exhibit 63, an intercept from Tokyo to Honolulu, translated in Navy Department, 3 December, 1941, states:

"As relations between Japan and the United States are most critical make your "ships in harbor report" irregular but at rate of twice a week. Although you already are no doubt aware, please take extra care to maintain secrecy."

(b) On 18 November, 1941, Document 37, Exhibit 63, an intercept from Tokyo to Honolulu, translated in Navy Department on 5 December, 1941, states:

"Please report on the following areas as to vessels anchored therein: Area "N" Pearl Harbor, Manila Bay, and areas adjacent thereto. Make your investigation with great secrecy."

Note by Navy Department on this message:

"Manila Bay" probably means "Mamala Bay."

(c) On 18 November, 1941, Document 40, Exhibit 63, an intercept from Honolulu to Tokyo and translated in Navy Department 6 December, 1941, gives information as to ships moored in certain areas in Pearl Harbor and movements of ships in and out.

[7] (d) On 29 November, 1941, Document 36, Exhibit 63, an intercept from Tokyo to Honolulu, translated in Washington 5 December, 1941, states:

"We have been receiving reports from you on ship movements but in future will you also report even where there are no movements."



quote:
The message which General Marshall sent to the Commanding General, Hawaiian Department (Exhibit 48) reads as follows:

"Japanese are presenting at one p.m. Eastern Standard Time today what amounts to an ultimatum also they are under orders to destroy their Code machine immediately stop Just what significance the hour set may have we do not know but be on alert accordingly stop Inform naval authorities of this communication."

This message left the War Department at 11:52 a.m., Washington time, was sent out over R.C.A. at 12:17 p.m. (6:47 a.m.Honolulu time) and arrived in Honolulu's R.C.A. office at 7:33 a.m. Honolulu time. There remained but 22 minutes before the attack for delivery, decoding, dissemination,
and action. Lieut. General Short did not receive the decoded dispatch until the afternoon of 7 December, several hours after the attacking force had departed.

Had the telephone and plain language been used, this message could have been received in Hawaii before the attack began.


quote:
Based on Findings XVIII and XIX, the Court is of the opinion that Admiral Harold R. Stark, U.S.N., Chief of Naval Operations and responsible for the operations of the Fleet, failed to display the sound judgment expected of him in that he did not transmit to Admiral Kimmel, Commander-in-Chief, Pacific fleet, during the very critical period 26 November to 7 December, important information which he had regarding the Japanese situation and, especially, in that, on the morning of 7 December, 1941, he did not transmit immediately [1208] the fact that a message had been received which appeared to indicate that a break in diplomatic relations was imminent, and that an attack in the Hawaiian area might be expected soon


Now, in the end, the conclusion of the Joint Comittee was that while evidence indicated there was sufficient intelligence available to determine Pearl Harbor as the target of an impending attack, it was simply a case of faulty communication and bad judgement.

But thanks to the Freedom of Information Act, documents now reveal that numerous warnings were recieved by domestic and international intelligence communities indicating Pearl Harbor as a target. They were warned as early as January 1941 by their Japanese Ambassador but dismissed the information(also found in the Hearings).

Also discovered are various memos, diaries and documents indicating foreknowledge of an imminent attack. Decoded transmission intercepts are particularly damning.

I can't accept or condemn the strategy because FDR was obviously thin on options. It's an sad but common tactic of warfare.


Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
29 posted 2004-11-02 07:16 PM


"it was simply a case of faulty communication and bad judgement."


Which is a far cry from knowingly leaving
your forces both vulnerable and unprepared.

Again, what reason would Roosevelt have
not having every gun manned and plane
in the air?

John

P.S.

As to Japanese intelligence interested in
American ships, as we were in theirs;
that’s why they kept up false radio
traffic to mask the actual location
of their fleet.

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
30 posted 2004-11-02 09:57 PM


Which is a far cry from knowingly leaving
your forces both vulnerable and unprepared

Sigh. As of 1946, before the Freedom of Information Act revealed other transcripts and evidence.

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