The Alley |
President Franklin Roosevelt |
Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Was President Franklin Roosevelt wrong in his actions, as regards Germany and Japan, leading to America’s participation in World War II? John [This message has been edited by Huan Yi (10-28-2004 09:01 PM).] |
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© Copyright 2004 John Pawlik - All Rights Reserved | |||
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
No, are you actually trying an historical comparison. Okay, how about this? FDR would have been wrong if after Pearl Harbor, he decided to invade Spain. And then justify it because, well, they were fascist after all. They were going to attack us someday somewhere. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Brad, "as regards Germany and Japan, leading to America’s participation in World War II?" John |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Brad, I think that was exactly his reasoning on Germany. |
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Krawdad Member Elite
since 2001-01-03
Posts 2597 |
What actions? Your question is not specific. FDR was anticipating and waiting for an attack on the US to stimulate the popular support he needed to declare war. Pearl Harbor provided him with the opportunity. The US population was isolationist before that happened. Listen carefully the next time you hear his "Day of Infamy" speech and tell me you don't hear a well thought out response, not merely a reactionary bit of spit. He knew it was coming. It was his justification. Does that answer your question? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Boy, you guys are really confusing me. Whose reasoning? Hitler declared war on America right after Pearl Harbor. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Brad, “Churchill picked up the phone. “Mr. President, what’s this about Japan?” “It’s quite true. They have attacked Pearl Harbor. We are all in the same boat.” “ This actually simplifies things. God be with you.” Churchill couldn’t help feeling great elation, now that the United States was officially at his side…. Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop told Hitler that General Oshima was demanding an immediate declaration of war against America but reminded him that according to the terms of the Tripartite Pact, Germany was bound to assist Japan only in case she was directly attacked. “If we don’t stand on the side of Japan, the pact is politically dead,” Hitler said. “But that is not the main reason. The chief reason is that the United States already is shooting at our ships. They have been a forceful factor in this war and through their actions have already created a situation of war.”” John Toland The Rising Sun |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Krawdad, “Does that answer your question?” No My question was: Was President Franklin Roosevelt wrong in his actions, as regards Germany and Japan, leading to America’s participation in World War II? John |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Oh FDR knew the attack was coming, the allied intelligence community was quite aware of the impending attack and both the State Department and Naval Intelligence recieved the information as early as March. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Aenimal, And why did Japan, a country already embroiled in a costly war in China for years, attack America? John |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Uh, blockade? Sanctions? Whatever you want to call it. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
The beauty of the Freedom of Information Act? It's all there if you're willing to read. Declassified memos include an 8 point plan written by naval intelligence's Lieutenant Commander Arthur McCollum on how to provoke Japan into attacking. All 8 points were adopted by FDR including, as Brad mentioned, sanctions and the oil embargo in 1941. [This message has been edited by Aenimal (10-28-2004 05:12 PM).] |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
So, was President Franklin Roosevelt wrong in his actions, as regards Germany and Japan, leading to America’s participation in World War II? John PS Some 350,000 Americans were killed in WWII. [This message has been edited by Huan Yi (10-28-2004 09:01 PM).] |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
He was right to help his allies against the spread of a nazi/fascist regime. He was wrong in waiting 2 years to help, and he was wrong in how he went about getting involved. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Aenimal, “and he was wrong in how he went about getting involved” And how else could he have gotten a vehemently isolationist American population* involved? John *There was a survey done by the Chicago Tribune in November, 1941 that found Americans by an 8 to 1 majority opposed to becoming involved in another European war. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
quote: I'm not sure, but I'd like to think there are better alternatives than allowing an attack on US citizens and soil. That 8-1 were against the war displays the faults of isolationalist thinking. PS Canada didn't hesitate to join the war in Europe sending 1 million troops(nearly 10% of the total population) from 1939-45 including the 4th largest air force and the 3rd largest navy. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Aenimal, “PS Canada didn't hesitate to join the war in Europe sending 1 million troops(nearly 10% of the total population) from 1939-45 including the 4th largest air force and the 3rd largest navy.” As in 1914, because for them England was the Mother Country. In fact many still loyal Tories escaped/emigrated to Canada after the American Revolution. "I'm not sure, but I'd like to think there are better alternatives than allowing an attack on US citizens and soil." All accounts indicate no one in authority thought the Japanese capable or stupid enough to attack Pearl Harbor, expecting the blow to fall on the Philippines or elsewhere instead. They knew an attack was coming, but not where. John |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Hey john... um... could you repeat the question please? I didn't read it the first eighty times. Man, I feel like I'm in a broken record of history class. a broken record of history class. a broken record of history class. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Seriously, it's one of those things that's hard to call. Right? Wrong? *Sigh* there was a genocide going on, and also a mass invasion of europe. If I remember correctly, we beat Saddam down when he tried to invade somebody, and he didn't try to do it again. Where's the comparision? |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
"Now let us turn to the fateful period between November 27 and December 6, 1941. In this period numerous pieces of information came to our State, War, and Navy Departments in all of their Top ranks indicating precisely the intentions of the Japanese including the probable exact hour and date of the attack." ~Army report October 1944 For a timeline and what WAS known see the warnings section: http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Yes, they knew an attack was coming, though not where, and certainly not Pearl Harbor. And it has been argued here, and I agree, that that wherever attack was deliberately sought so as to bring a reluctant nation into the conflict already raging in the world. I suspect it was also understood that it had to be an attack involving Americans on a scale larger than the sinking of a ship in the Mid-Atlantic which had already happened. What difference did it make? What if Roosevelt had simply sat back and busied himself with domestic issues? John |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
quote: Did you read the warnings in the timeline? That information is the result of research into released documents/investigations thanks to the Freedom of Information Act. I've simply sent you one source but there are many books on the subject. They knew, and were warned repeatedly that Pearl Harbour was the target. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
I just did a cursory on the timeline you refer to. While I have no issue with the chronology, I would take issue with any speculation that Roosevelt consciously and deliberately left Pearl Harbor unprepared; that I believe was simple incredulity as to the prospect of attack there, (as on the Panama Canal which was also suggested as a target), ignorance, stupidity and bad luck. As to McArthur, even his biographers can’t explain some of his lapses, which include delays after Pearl Harbor which left his air forces subject to destruction on the ground at Clark and other airfields in the Philippines. I have read Toland’s account in “The Rising Sun”. But again, What if Roosevelt had just kept out of it as the overwhelming majority of Americans wanted? What was our concern in Asia? In Europe? Why did it matter so much that he and his kind felt the need to go to just lengths against the wishes of their countrymen? And were they justified. Seems eventually Russia would have won or at least kept Hitler in check. Japan was already stuck and trying to find an honorable way to get out of China. What the pressing need that would eventually cost 350,000 Americans their lives overseas? John |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Take issue with what you will, the fact of the matter is that Pearl Harbour was specifically stated in warnings as the target of attack. What pressing need? You mean aside from the obligation to assist your allies, protect your business/trade interests or hey, the moral dilema of allowing a fascist tyrant to gain control or exterminate a large portion of the world? None, none at all. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
That the attack was a possibility, sure. That he knew the day and time of the attack? Are you kidding? That he still pursued policies that spurred the attack, sure. That he actually tried to make the attack happen, no. If you've studied the time as extensively as I have (and I think both of you have), any other conclusions are simply wrong. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
http://prisonplanet.com/files_prove_fdr_fore_knowledge_pearl_harbor.html |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Aenimal, We’ll just have to disagree. Roosevelt’s purpose would have been served just as well with all guns manned and planes in the air. John |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I took a quick look at the site, I see nothing that would change my earlier post. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
The following are excerpts I've personally taken from the NAVY COURT OF INQUIRY's REPORT: HEARINGS BEFORE THE JOINT COMITTEE ON THE INVESTIGATION OF THE PEARL HARBOR ATTACK dated 1946: quote: quote: quote: Now, in the end, the conclusion of the Joint Comittee was that while evidence indicated there was sufficient intelligence available to determine Pearl Harbor as the target of an impending attack, it was simply a case of faulty communication and bad judgement. But thanks to the Freedom of Information Act, documents now reveal that numerous warnings were recieved by domestic and international intelligence communities indicating Pearl Harbor as a target. They were warned as early as January 1941 by their Japanese Ambassador but dismissed the information(also found in the Hearings). Also discovered are various memos, diaries and documents indicating foreknowledge of an imminent attack. Decoded transmission intercepts are particularly damning. I can't accept or condemn the strategy because FDR was obviously thin on options. It's an sad but common tactic of warfare. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
"it was simply a case of faulty communication and bad judgement." Which is a far cry from knowingly leaving your forces both vulnerable and unprepared. Again, what reason would Roosevelt have not having every gun manned and plane in the air? John P.S. As to Japanese intelligence interested in American ships, as we were in theirs; that’s why they kept up false radio traffic to mask the actual location of their fleet. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
Which is a far cry from knowingly leaving your forces both vulnerable and unprepared Sigh. As of 1946, before the Freedom of Information Act revealed other transcripts and evidence. |
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