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Huan Yi
Member Ascendant

since 2004-10-12

Posts 6688
Waukegan

0 posted 2004-10-24 12:30 PM

Iraqi Insurgents

How would you characterize them?
Are they freedom fighters?

John

Midnitesun

Member Empyrean

since 2001-05-18

Posts 28647
Gaia

1 posted 2004-10-24 12:33 PM

Well, I guess it depends upon which end of the bullet you stand.

Pissed off patriots? Religious/political zealots? Just plain thugs and murderers?

Alicat
Member Elite

since 1999-05-23

Posts 4094
Coastal Texas

2 posted 2004-10-24 01:35 PM

I'm not really sure how many Iraqis are Iraqi insurgents. I do know most of the people killing Iraqis and attacking the Coalition troops are foreign nationals from Iran, Jordan, Syria and the Arabian Penisula. And they are far from freedom fighters.

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis

since 2002-11-18

Posts 7350
the ass-end of space

3 posted 2004-10-24 02:17 PM

Pissed off zealots financially backed by sympathetic Saudis

ice
Member Elite

since 2003-05-17

Posts 3404
Pennsylvania

4 posted 2004-11-04 03:43 PM

Alicat...
"I'm not really sure how many Iraqis are Iraqi insurgents. I do know most of the people killing Iraqis and attacking the Coalition troops are foreign nationals from Iran, Jordan, Syria and the Arabian Penisula."

How do you know this?...If what you say is true, where can I read about it on the net?

I have been under the impression that most of the "thugs" have been Iraqi citizens that have been aided by foreign fighters..I might be wrong, please help me find more information.

ice

Alicat
Member Elite

since 1999-05-23

Posts 4094
Coastal Texas

5 posted 2004-11-04 04:58 PM

USATODAY article

quote:

Of the 90 foreign captives, more than half are Syrian. That has prompted President Bush to complain publicly that Syria has failed to secure its border with Iraq and ensure that the country isn't used as a staging ground for foreign fighters. Suspected foreign fighters from Iran, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and other Arab nations also are being held.

There ya go, Ice.

Midnitesun

Member Empyrean

since 2001-05-18

Posts 28647
Gaia

6 posted 2004-11-04 07:39 PM

What is really sad, is another explanation that most people don't think about or might not want to believe, but I believe is true.
The Iraqui unemployment rate is reported to be over 70%, and the infrastructure of the country is so unstable that many have difficulty finding ways to feed themselves and their families. On an Arab site I visited recently, it was reported that the terrorists/insurgents coalition has been paying Iraqui citizens (and maybe hungry syrians who hate the US?) a $100 bounty per head to kill Americans or foreigners that support this US invasion. I trust the information was accurate, and wonder just how many disillusioned people have accepted this blood money in order to ensure their own survival.
Anyone who can refute this info, please, by all means prove to me this isn't one of the reasons the attacks are escalating.

Alicat
Member Elite

since 1999-05-23

Posts 4094
Coastal Texas

7 posted 2004-11-04 08:16 PM

Vicious circle. Infrastructure destoyed by insurgents, infrastructure gets rebuilt, people are hired en masse, infrastructure gets destroyed by insurgents, people have no work, insurgents pay unemployed to become insurgents. Rinse and repeat.

As an afterthought, that 70% figure, if correct, is most likely for the entire country, not for districts, states, or areas. In the south and north, though I have no valid proof, I'm pretty sure the unemployment rate is a lot lower, due to the infrastructure not being destroyed shortly after repairs are completed. Central is a mess, since fools keep trashing that which would give stability and prosperity to everyone living there.

ice
Member Elite

since 2003-05-17

Posts 3404
Pennsylvania

8 posted 2004-11-04 08:21 PM

Alicat
Thank you for the link to the article....but I am a little confused....The headline of the article states,
"Foreign detainees are few in Iraq"

Perhaps I have misunderstood your point in your first post in this thread...

" I do know most of the people killing Iraqis and attacking the Coalition troops are foreign nationals from Iran, Jordan, Syria and the Arabian Peninsula. And they are far from freedom fighters."

It seems like that says that most of those who are attacking the coalition troops are not from Iraq, and are foreign militants.

The article states that,
"Suspected foreign fighters account for less than 2% of the 5,700 captives being held as security threats in Iraq, a strong indication that Iraqis are largely responsible for the stubborn insurgency."

And that,
As of August,(The date of the article) there were 5,700 detainees of which 90 were foreign nationals...

And of those 90, one half were Syrian...

By reading the article I am convinced that there are very few foreign nationals in combat positions in Iraq, and that the great majority of the insurgents are Iraqi citizens..Something I suspected all along, but had no real information to back it up.

To answer the question posted at the beginning of the thread....I would say that the insurgents, for the most part. are Iraqi citizens fighting for a much different kind of "freedom" than is being imposed on them by the coalition.

Not only do the insurgents want the coalition to leave, a great many Iraqi citizens seem to desire that same exodus.

The last poll I can find that states the acceptance of the coalition invasion, or its rejection by Iraqis, is by Gallup, taken In May of this year....it states that ..

"The poll results (also) belie the notion that a majority of Iraqis want U.S. and British troops to stay on for an extended period. Instead, 57 percent want those troops to leave "immediately."

Our government officials have continuously insisted that the majority of Iraqi citizens want us to stay...but I think I have found the spin.....the poll states that the Kurdish population (about 19% of the total population) greatly supports the occupation..So that's where they must be taking their polls

"Ninety-seven percent of Kurds view those forces as liberators. In the Sunni and Shiite regions that sentiment is 10 percent and 7 percent, respectively."

The entire report can be seen at...
http://www.cato.org/dailys/05-18-04.html

I don't mean to go way off topic, but I think this relates to the question first asked by John....

ice

Alicat
Member Elite

since 1999-05-23

Posts 4094
Coastal Texas

9 posted 2004-11-04 08:29 PM

Right, Ice. That article I referrenced was just about those foreign insurgents which had been caught. There's no real way to pinpoint the living ones unless they are on file somewhere and a correct comparison is made. I do recall hearing of the Iranian insurgents trying to rile up Iraqis with the ultra-fundamentalist spin on Islam.

Not really up to doing a lot of research though. These sedatives for my back make some thought rather muddled.

Rowley
Junior Member

since 2001-04-07

Posts 30

10 posted 2004-11-13 01:58 PM

There are about 150,000 foreign fighters currently in Iraq, and 140,000 of them are Americans. There is nobody more foreign in Iraq than the Americans. I'm sure that when an Iraqi's house gets raided at 3am and a US soldier shoots bullet holes in their Koran, they must think to themselves hmmm, maybe that Saddam wasn't so bad?

TexUS
Member

since 2003-03-20

Posts 228

11 posted 2004-11-13 05:51 PM

Rowely, I read your post, and one moment comes to mind...watching the news, Bagdad, a giant statue of Saddam, and a crowd of Iraqi's trying to take it down...they ask the Marines to help, they cheer the Marines, they are liberated, and they appear grateful and joyous...the statue comes down, and is dragged through the streets of Bagdad. Your post makes me very angry, and sad...
Can't think of anything else to add right now.

Midnitesun

Member Empyrean

since 2001-05-18

Posts 28647
Gaia

12 posted 2004-11-13 06:08 PM

The majority of the Iraqui insurgents are Iraquis, who believe Americans are infidels, and who believe we should get out of their country. The US media presentations are almost always oversimplified, showing the public only the views that support this governments invasion. Thank God there are other foreign journalists, independents as well as the BBC, who risk their lives to bring us pictures and audio from the reality fields.
It's really easy to see why the Iraquis as well as the foreign insurgents hate the Americans. Of course, some do cheer our presence, and I'm not suggesting most Iraquis aren't happy that Saddam isn't in power. But they don't want us there either.

Balladeer

Administrator

Member Empyrean

since 1999-06-05

Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA

13 posted 2004-11-13 07:04 PM

In an ideal situation, Hussein is thrown out of power, coalition forces go to work on repairing the country's infrastructure, adding many facilities the Iraquis never had under Hussein, the Iraqui police are trained to take over law enforcement, the Iraqui army is reformed, elections are held and the coalition forces leave. Somewhere in that scenario, though, insurgents decide to sabotage the infrastructure efforts, use suicide bombers to bomb police stations and Iraq army installations, kill Iraqui citizens indiscriminately including women and children, kidnap and behead foreign workers.....and they do it in the name of freedom fighters. Who in the world can be naiive enough to believe that? These people's actions are because they do NOT want democracy in Iraq, they do NOT want elections, they do not want freedom for their people......and they are willing to butcher their own people to do it. They want tyrrany to continue...and they want to be in charge of it.....period.

Rowley
Junior Member

since 2001-04-07

Posts 30

14 posted 2004-11-14 01:59 PM

Yes, they do want control. The resistance wants to make sure that whoever controls the country are not a faction that has cooperated with the invaders. It is unacceptable to let anybody into power that has been a collaborater with the invaders since they now know that the invaders have come not for liberation but for profit.

Balladeer

Administrator

Member Empyrean

since 1999-06-05

Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA

15 posted 2004-11-14 07:35 PM

That's meaningless talk, Rowley, unless you have some proof to support your facts, which I feel sure you don't. If you do, I'd really like to see it.

Rowley
Junior Member

since 2001-04-07

Posts 30

16 posted 2004-11-14 08:53 PM

Now Balladeer,
Did I ask for factual evidence to support your claims when you suggested this?
QUOTE:
"They want tyrany to continue...and they want to be in charge of it.....period."

Bush doesn't care about the people of Iraq enough to spend billions to liberate them from a dictator. I hope you don't believe in this foolishness.
I speak out of common sense in what any person would react like if their country was invaded and occupied by an aggressive foreign military.
Now if Bush can make sure he gets one of his puppets in control in Iraq, the US govt will have control of the worlds second largest oil reserves and have taken out one of Israel's "problems" as well.

Do you really need to see factual evidence for the obvious?

Denise

Moderator

Member Seraphic

since 1999-08-22

Posts 22648

17 posted 2004-11-14 09:02 PM

I guess the obvious is different to different people, Rowley.

Balladeer

Administrator

Member Empyrean

since 1999-06-05

Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA

18 posted 2004-11-14 10:07 PM

I've seen your comments in other threads, Rowley. You are not qualified to speak of common sense. Your agenda is Bush-bashing, plain and simple and you will present your views only to support that intention. Attempting to validate or give proof of your assertions makes you resort to double-talk, nothing more.

Ron

Administrator

Member Rara Avis

since 1999-05-19

Posts 8669
Michigan, US

19 posted 2004-11-15 12:23 PM

You apparently have a very low estimation of common sense, Rowley. And an even lower one of human motives. By your logic (sic), the French must have resented the hell out of all those American landing at Normandy in 1944.

I've spoken to my sister's boy, stationed in Iraq for the past year, but you can't really put a lot of stock in what an Iraqi might or might not say in the face of feared retribution from one side or the other. I honestly don't really know how the average Iraqi feels.

I don't think you do you, either.

Rowley
Junior Member

since 2001-04-07

Posts 30

20 posted 2004-11-15 08:20 PM

Ron,
In regards to Normandy 1944, I'm aware that Germans were there occupying France and the Americans landed to help drive the Germans out of France. You related that to the current US invasion and occupation of Iraq. I don't recall a foreign military occupying Iraq when the Americans landed in Iraq. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Ron

Administrator

Member Rara Avis

since 1999-05-19

Posts 8669
Michigan, US

21 posted 2004-11-15 08:59 PM

quote:
I speak out of common sense in what any person would react like if their country was invaded and occupied by an aggressive foreign military

Those were your words, Rowley, not mine. If you feel you need to think them through a little more clearly, I certainly understand. Indeed, I would encourage you to do so.

It might even be good practice for future posts.

Rowley
Junior Member

since 2001-04-07

Posts 30

22 posted 2004-11-22 03:45 PM

QUOTE:
"You apparently have a very low estimation of common sense, Rowley. And an even lower one of human motives. By your logic (sic), the French must have resented the hell out of all those American landing at Normandy in 1944."

I take it you would cooperate with an invading foreign military taking over your own country.
You sound like a couch potato collaborator to me pal.

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

23 posted 2004-12-15 10:29 AM

quote:
These soldiers deserve a better defense secretary than the one we have.

--William Kristol

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