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Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

0 posted 2000-11-01 07:32 PM


Christopher said:

oh - and Brad

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More than one person have pointed out that some of the discussions...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Properly speaking, that would be: "More than one person HAS pointed out..."

Chris


--Why?   The subject is plural to my mind. What's the rule?

--You know, the fun part of being wrong is that I get to learn something new.  

Brad

© Copyright 2000 Brad - All Rights Reserved
Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612
Hurricane Alley
1 posted 2000-11-01 07:41 PM


Let me tell you a story about the 'rules' of English. Growing up in a small town, there were always 2 classes of students. Rules of English was taught by one teacher - the other teacher was the more 'creative' teacher. I unfortunately got the creative teacher. I know what's right but don't know why! I can tell you that saying we are going to the store is correct but we is going is not correct. Just couldn't tell you why!!!
Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
2 posted 2000-11-02 09:09 AM


sharon - i can't tell you why i'm here or why i'm me  

brad - this has disturbing similarities to "the reader is always right debate" - lol..at least your philosophy is consistent   .... and yes you have a point as well

P

Jamie
Member Elite
since 2000-06-26
Posts 3168
Blue Heaven
3 posted 2000-11-02 06:31 PM


Used with a past participle to form the present perfect, past perfect,and future perfect tenses tenses indicating completed action: The troublemaker has gone for good. I regretted that I had lost my temper. They will have finished by the time we arrive.


Jamie

Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito. - Virgil.
"Yield thou not to adversity, but press on the more bravely".


Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
4 posted 2000-11-03 12:12 PM


Three people responded, three people didn't answer the question.


Come on guys. Is it have or has and why?

More have conceded their arguments than have contrived them.

One person has the choice to ignore this question.

Which one is it?

Brad

Jamie
Member Elite
since 2000-06-26
Posts 3168
Blue Heaven
5 posted 2000-11-03 09:23 AM


Perhaps this will help-

I --            am     have      do

You--          are    have      do

He-She-It--    is     has       does

WE--           are    have      do

They--         are    have      do



[This message has been edited by Prometheus (edited 11-03-2000).]

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
6 posted 2000-11-03 09:55 AM


OK Brad,

It looks like no one wants to answer, so here is MHO. At least in American usage, has is correct. The reason: believe it or not, your subject is actually singular. By referring to "more than one", you refer to a group, a single group, collection or set. What you are actually telling me is that the group has pointed out something. Do you have a set of dishes and does it include a serving bowl? Notice I used it rather than they although there are probably many dishes. Now if you were to answer my question, you would say "my set HAS a serving bowl" or "my set does not have a serving bowl."

I think there may be some differences in British usage. It seems to me that they refer to a company as plural where we use singular. For example, I regularly see ads in sailing magazines for Lewmar, a British manufacturer. They always say something like "Lewmar MAKE the best winches." This side of the pond we would say MAKES.

Well, as I said, this is MHO.

Pete
Never express yourself more clearly than you can think - Niels Bohr

Romy
Senior Member
since 2000-05-28
Posts 1170
Plantation, Florida
7 posted 2000-11-03 10:23 AM


The word "have" is a verb that indicates possession, either materially or as a characteristic or attribute.
If it is a verb then it must have a subject and there must be subject and verb agreement.

I have pointed out that some of the discussions…
One person has pointed out that some of the discussions…
Many people have pointed out that some of the discussions…?

In my opinion, if the word "have" indicates possession, then it needs to indicate the tense of past or present.

To me, your sentence sounds like you are speaking in the past.

More than one person have pointed out that some of the discussions….

Which tells me that More than one person has  ALREADY pointed out that…..

What if you wanted to use this sentence as an interrogative rather than a declarative?

Would it be,

Have more than one person pointed out that some of the discussions…?

Or

Has more than one person pointed out that some of the discussions…?

Why the rules?
Anybody can express themselves in whatever manner they choose, but proper usage of standard grammar helps a person communicate more effectively.


This is just my opinion; I’m not an expert on grammar.

Besides I HAS uh…I mean HAVE an idea that you already know the real answer to your question anyway!





jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
8 posted 2000-11-03 01:16 PM


Brad:

"More than one person have pointed out that some of the discussions..."

"Have" is correct but its use is confused by the construction of the line.  I'm not convinced by the single-plurality argument in this case (sorry Pete).  A case where the singular plurality works would be: "The bunch of grapes is on the table".  

"More" is the word you need to look at.  Brad, if you alter the wording of the line a little bit, I think it becomes obvious that you are right:

"More have pointed out that some of the discussions ... than merely one person."

The use of more implies the plural of person (people) is the subject.  Is it "People has" or "People have"?  (That is a rhetorical question).

Now for the other side of it ... Brad, you could have worded the line differently to stave off the confusion.  "More than one person" is wordy ... "Several people ..." or "Many people ..." would have been much easier for our too-scantily clad friend to accept. Now all we have to do is get him to accept our advice to put on a shirt.  

Later.

Jim



Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
9 posted 2000-11-03 11:03 PM


Finally,

The debate begins.

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
10 posted 2000-11-04 12:52 PM


There is no debate about it Brad - I'm not putting on a shirt!
Dopey Dope
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Moderator
Member Patricius
since 2000-08-30
Posts 11132
San Juan, Puerto Rico
11 posted 2000-11-04 02:20 PM


*drools*



"I was born myself, raised myself, and will continue to be myself. The world will just have to adjust."

I hate your socks. I'd like to burn them!

Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA
12 posted 2000-11-08 07:05 AM


Collective nouns are the nasties... They can be either...

The group responds - That's correct if the group as an entire entity responds ... en masse...

Of course, the group respond is also correct - If each individual has his or her separate comment...... nya-nya-nya...   ..  


People is a plural noun (not collective)... as is THEY...
People have...... They have....
One person has...... He/She/It has....







[This message has been edited by Nan (edited 11-08-2000).]

pen of passion
Member
since 1999-08-11
Posts 234

13 posted 2000-11-24 01:22 AM


I think it's your call here.  Are you talking about a group or idividuals?  You hold the key, but as usual I am late for the party.
Ian Llewellyn ap-Griffith
Member
since 2000-02-12
Posts 197
Cincinnati, Oh, U.S.A.
14 posted 2001-07-23 09:41 PM


In diagraming the sentence, 'person' is the actual subject here. 'More than one' is an adjectival phrase modifying the subject. In keeping with subject-verb agreement, 'has' is the correct verb.
Look at it this way:

A person has.

In the above sentence 'A' is an indefinite artical and as such an adjective. It modifies the subject. Simply replace the adjective 'A' with the adjectival phrase 'More than one'. The subject remains the same and is still singular.
Incorrect grammer is one of my pet peeves. And I know about what I'm speaking.

Sing while you may
-The Prophet Qa'sepel

Your pain is for you alone, As it is, As it was, As it will be forever, Amen
-The Prophet Qa'sepel

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
15 posted 2001-07-23 11:26 PM


I completely forgot about this one.

Grammar is conventional, not always logical, so I certainly accept the possibility of being wrong.

But the first thing we have to accept is that 'one person' is NOT the subject of the sentence.

1. A person has told me this information.

2. More [persons] have told me this information than one.

Which sentence is closer to the original?

Are you sure you're not confusing the first noun of the sentence with the subject -- diagramming does that, you forget what the sentence says?

"More" is the subject because "persons" is understood.

I almost left the quotes off that last sentence just to confuse people more.    

Brad


Ian Llewellyn ap-Griffith
Member
since 2000-02-12
Posts 197
Cincinnati, Oh, U.S.A.
16 posted 2001-07-24 01:12 PM


Your two example sentences prove my point.  
Sentence #2: 'More (persons) have told me...'
'Persons' is plural and as such must use 'have' as the transitive verb. 'More' is still an adjective, not the subject of the sentence if the parentheses are removed. If the parenthetical 'persons' is left out entirely, then 'More' does become the subject.
The difference is in the adjectival phrase (in parentheses):
'(More than one)PERSON HAS told me...'
'(More) PERSONS HAVE told me....'
By using 'than one', you limit the subject to being singular.
And yes, I'm sure that I am not confusing the first noun of the sentence with the subject. It just happens to be the subject in this case.


'More than one person have pointed out that some of the discussions...'


Let's diagram, shall we?
'More than one (adjectival phrase) person (subject) have (transitive verb) pointed (verb) out (adverb) that (conjunction introducing noun clause) some of the discussions (noun clause including prepositional phrase [of the discussions])

If you change the sentence only slightly to read: 'More have pointed out that some of the discussions...', then 'More' does become the subject of the sentence. But in your original sentence, 'More' is an adjective beginning an adjectival phrase and 'person' is definitely the subject.

This is, of course, based in standard american english, colloquialism not withstanding.
If you are in doubt of my veracity, I suggest you find a copy of 'The Transitive Vampire'. This is the best book on the subject of standard american grammer that I have found. It is not only very informative but also quite entertaining and accessible.
Ian


[This message has been edited by Ian Llewellyn ap-Griffith (edited 07-24-2001).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
17 posted 2001-07-24 07:28 PM


But by making 'more than one' the adjective phrase, you are saying that the sentence means

"A person who is more than one [person] has told me . . ."

How is that logical?

Other examples:

"Younger than he have been president."

by your count should be:

"Younger than he has been president."

Or let's change the verb and tense as well:

"Younger than he run for president."

becomes

"Younger than he runs for president."

Do you see my point?

There is simply no way this 'he' can be the subject of the complete sentence.

I don't have a copy of that book but I'd love to see the specific examples it gives to prove your point if you have the time.

On the other hand,

if you mean "one person" is the subject of the dependent clause (the 'subject' of what is unclear in your diagram) beginning with the comparative conjunction "than" the sentence becomes a fragment because the subject of the complete sentence has no verb.

By the way, would you argue "more than" is the full comparative conjunction/phrase? It's unclear from your diagram where you place these words.

For example:

"More people HAVE told me that I should shut up than one person HAS told me to shut up."

We can reduce this sentence with little danger of misunderstanding because it is repetitious. As Jim pointed out earlier, the "than one person" itself is superfluous/repetitious to the meaning; its only function is emphasis.

So, are you arguing that the sentence should be a fragment?

Brad

PS What transitive characteristics does "have" in this sentence have? Isn't it simpler and clearer to describe "have" as an auxiliary verb with the function of making the present perfect tense?

Brad


Ian Llewellyn ap-Griffith
Member
since 2000-02-12
Posts 197
Cincinnati, Oh, U.S.A.
18 posted 2001-07-25 02:09 AM


My mistake, auxiliary verb not transitive. (I never claimed to be perfect!)

The sentence as written is a fragment (as is my opening to this post), however, I suspect that there is more to it after the ellipses. But, that is immaterial. What is being debated here is subject-verb agreement.

I must admit; I am somewhat mystified as to how you can believe that the correct verb here is 'have'. 'Person' is, to my mind, obviously the subject of the sentence, not ‘More’. If ‘More’ is the subject (as you have stated) what is ‘than one’ or ‘than one person’. What kind of clause or phrase is that?

How do you contest that ‘More than one’ is an adjectival phrase? It describes the subject of the sentence. How many? – More than one.  ‘More’ is (in precise terms) an indefinite limiting adjective. This does not change the fact that ‘person’ (the subject of the sentence) is a singular noun and therefore must have a singular verb.

Your first example: ‘Younger than he have become president.’ is not a complete sentence. There is no subject. If you were to say: ‘A person younger than he have become president’ then that would be a complete sentence (albeit incorrect as the subject ‘person’ is singular and the verb is plural.)
So, yes, by my count the sentence should read: ‘A person younger than he has become president.’ So, no, I don’t see your point as you are using incomplete examples.

I read ‘The Transitive Vampire’ some years ago and had not (until after I mentioned it) consulted the book. Unfortunately, it gives no direct examples pertaining to this case. I cited the book as an example of a good (and easily readable) text on grammar. It has numerous examples of subject-verb agreement and adjectival phrases but not this particular example. I recommend it anyway.

If you still don’t believe me, I suggest you go to visit or call your local high school English teacher. He or she will be able to explain it better than I. And, if I am wrong (though I don’t see how), I would like to know about it.

Ian

Sing while you may
-The Prophet Qa'sepel

Your pain is for you alone, As it is, As it was, As it will be forever, Amen
-The Prophet Qa'sepel

Jamie
Member Elite
since 2000-06-26
Posts 3168
Blue Heaven
19 posted 2001-07-25 05:26 PM


Sometimes the more you disect a thing the less you are able to understand it, instead of vice-versa.


"More than one person has pointed out that some of the discussions..." is correct.

Remove the "more than one" which is used here as descriptive phrase and substitute a different one.. as in " a very astute person has pointed out..." now, would " a very astute person have pointed out..." be correct? The answer has to be no. Therefore the answer to which is the correct usage would have to be "has".

[This message has been edited by Jamie (edited 07-25-2001).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
20 posted 2001-07-25 07:27 PM


And I'm wrong too -- sometimes:

I checked.

Interestingly enough, the subject is irrelevant here--

"more than one" is an exception to the usual subject/verb agreement rules:

1. Grammar: Traditional Rules, Word Order, Agreement, and Case

" ¡× 35. more than one

Here¡¯s a riddle: How can you have more than one and still have only one? The answer: When you are skinning a cat. When a noun phrase contains more than one and a singular noun, the verb is normally singular: There is more than one way to skin a cat. More than one editor is working on that project. More than one field has been planted with oats.

     1
  When more than one is followed by of and a plural noun, the verb is plural: More than one of the paintings were stolen. More than one of the cottages are for sale.

    2
  When more than one stands alone, it usually takes a singular verb, but it may take a plural verb if the notion of multiplicity predominates: The operating rooms are all in good order. More than one is (or are) equipped with the latest imaging technology."


I feel so betrayed.  

Brad

Ian Llewellyn ap-Griffith
Member
since 2000-02-12
Posts 197
Cincinnati, Oh, U.S.A.
21 posted 2001-07-26 01:39 AM


Don't feel betrayed!
The English language is the most dynamic language to ever exist. It changes constantly. That's why new dictionaries and style manuals are published each year with revisions. (An act of parliment is required to change something in the French language!) It is one of the most difficult to learn as a second language. And (I think as a result of this) it is one of the most beautiful and expressive languages on the planet!
English is a very complex language and as such, we who use it should stay on our toes. If we, the poets and tellers of tales, are to retain the privilege of our art, then we must be vigilant. The rules and conditions are subject to change without notice.
Ian

Sing while you may
-The Prophet Qa'sepel

Your pain is for you alone, As it is, As it was, As it will be forever, Amen
-The Prophet Qa'sepel

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
22 posted 2001-07-26 06:51 AM


Huh?

I don't feel betrayed by the English language, I feel betrayed by the so-called "usage specialists" of the American Heritage Usage Dictionary. I think they've betrayed their position as prescriptive grammarians in order to promote the descriptive linguist agenda.

Don't get me wrong, I think there is a need for descriptive linguistics, but I also see a need for prescriptive grammar. If not, why do we worry about correct and incorrect?

Their reasoning is exactly what we both, at least implicitly, agreed was not valid in this discussion: the use of the final noun as the determiner of the verb form "just because":

Their position is "just because".

"More than one of the paintings were stolen."

Even though it structurally agrees with my position, not yours, I think their point is lazy.

I already know that this is a reason for subject/verb agreement problems, I already know that this is what people do, and their position seems to do nothing but compound and enhance further reasons to make this mistake.  

Just because.

In order for their position to be persuasive, they need a counter-reason to break the standard subject/verb agreement rule.  I don't think they've made one other than "this is what you do."

Don't worry, I'll teach it, but when my students look at me with glazed over eyes, I'll explain what I really think.

But that'll probably confuse them even more.  

Brad

PS Are you a native speaker of English? The only reason I ask is that I've never met someone who doesn't feel exactly the way you do about their own language.

More later.

Ian Llewellyn ap-Griffith
Member
since 2000-02-12
Posts 197
Cincinnati, Oh, U.S.A.
23 posted 2001-07-26 10:22 PM


Betrayed by grammarians? Yeah, I can understand that.

Language, to my mind, is very much like mathematics in that it is an artificial system. Someone, somewhere came up with some rules so that everyone could communicate. There are several different forms of mathematics as there are several different languages. Why is one unable to divide by zero? Why does 'more than one' take either a singular or plural verb when it stands alone? Just because. The rules are arbitrary. Oh well, what can one do but follow them? Mathematicians and writers both must follow the rules.

Yes, I am a native speaker of English. Only after you asked did I notice that you hail from Korea. Are you native to Korea? If so, do you feel the same way (as do I about English) about Korean? I don't think that I know any non-native English speakers very well at all. I would be very interested in a different opinion.
Ian


Sing while you may
  -The Prophet Qa'sepel

Your pain is for you alone, As it is, As it was, As it will be forever, Amen
   -The Prophet Qa'sepel

[This message has been edited by Ian Llewellyn ap-Griffith (edited 07-26-2001).]

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