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As I Lie Dying?
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As I Lie Dying? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
If the verb 'to lie' is intransitive and the verb 'to lay' is transitive, shouldn't the rather famous title by Faulkner "As I Lay Dying" be my title. Could someone explain this to me? Brad |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I hate to tell you how I figure this one out...Lay..be supine....lie...the opposite of truth...that's how I figure it out... Lie down next to me Lay down next to me I lay down We lay down I lie here thinking of you (is this right?) I lay here thinking of you Lying Laying Answer man!!!! [This message has been edited by Poet deVine (edited 02-26-2000).] |
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Munda Member Elite
since 1999-10-08
Posts 3544The Hague, The Netherlands |
LOL this is one of those words confusing a Dutch mind like mine very much.  However, my dictionary explains ! lay - vt - (laying,laid) to put down; to allay or suppress; to place in a resting position; to place or set; to place in a correct positon. lie - n - an untrue statement made with intent to deceive; something that deceives or misleads. *vi - (lying, lied) to speak untruthfully with an intention to deceive; to create a false impression. lie - vi - (lying, lay, pp lain) to be or put oneself in a reclining or horizontal position; to rest on a support in a horizontal position; to be in a specified condition; to be situated; to exist. *n - the way in which something is situated. As I lie dying - as I lay dying, both correct English in my opinion, but you knew that, didn't you ?  Anybody wants to borrow my dictionary ? Munda |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Thanks Munda, However, you are correct. However, I'd thought I'd add this: usage LAY: has been used intransitively in the sense of "lie" since the 14th century. The practice was unremarked until around 1770; attempts to correct it have been a fixture of schoolbooks ever since. Generations of teachers and critics have succeeded in taming most literary and learned writing, but intransitive lay persists in familiar speech and is a bit more common in general prose than one might suspect. Much of the problem lies in the confusing similarity of the principal parts of the two words. Another influence may be a folk belief that lie is for people and lay is for things. Some commentators are ready to abandon the distinction, suggesting that lay is on the rise socially. But if it does rise to respectability, it is sure to do so slowly: many people have invested effort in learning to keep lie and lay distinct. Remember that even though many people do use lay for lie, others will judge you unfavorably if you do. Both 'As I lie dying . . .' and 'As I lay dying . . .' are potentially correct. In the same sense that 'As I sit reading . . .' and 'As I sat reading . . .' are correct. It depends on what you mean. Yes, Faulner's title fits the book but doesn't anybody else think it's strange to read that phrase the way it is written. Brad |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Lie, Lay..... Sit, Set..... "Lie down" is correct - "Lay down" is not. "Lie that book on the table" is incorrect. "Lay that book on the table" is correct. "As I Lie Dying" is correct if it is interpreted as the speaker is currently (present tense) lying on his/her deathbed. "As I Lay Dying" is correct if it is interpreted as the speaker having already died and somehow lived to tell about it... There's some intrinsic oxymoron prevalent here...  ... We tend to forget, though, that "lay" is the past tense of "lie"."I think I need to lie down" is correct. "I lay down for an hour yesterday afternoon" is also correct... Isn't this fun??? |
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Coof New Member
since 1999-11-27
Posts 7 |
Nan or Brad Does that mean ‘Lay down the law’ is incorrect or is ‘I think I need to lie down this sack’ correct? Craig A befuddled Englishman Yes, I admit your general rule. That every poet is a fool: But I myself may serve to show it. That every fool is not a poet. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Coof (Craig) -- geez, make up your mind, would ya, No, lay down is a phrasal verb, so lay down the law is fine. But it's a different verb than in lie down. Nan was talking about, "I want to lie down because I'm tired" as opposed to "I will lay down the law in this house because I'm the head of the house." I just wanted to point out that I honestly didn't understand this question until I saw the definitions put in front of my face by Munda (and the inflections). Call me lazy because I should have done the research myself. Brad |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Craig: "Lay down the law" is also slang. You'll probably never see the phrase in a judge's legal opinion. Because it is slang, I'm not certain that you could consider using it a "misuse". Although its meaning may be appropriate, I wouldn't recommend using it if you ever have to draft some legal briefs. Jim |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Where is the rule book? I want to see who said I can't say lay instead of lie. When was it written? If it was written more than 10 years ago, then it's probably outdated! Times change... |
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caul Junior Member
since 2000-01-07
Posts 12 |
Jim I didn't have a problem with lie or lay until I read this thread My briefs are and shall always remain legal though slightly uncomfortable. Is this correct perchance? Incorrect: Lie the book on the table. Correct: Lay the book on the table. Incorrect: Lay down on the ground. Correct: Lie down on the ground. The past tense of lay is laid. The past tense of lie is lay. Incorrect: I lay it down here the other day. Correct: I laid it down here the other day. Incorrect: Last night I laid awake. Correct: Last night I lay awake. The past participle of lie is lain. The past participle of lay is like the past tense, laid. Examples: I could have lain in bed. They laid an average of 5 eggs a day. Craig (Just for Brad) < !signature--> Yes, I admit your general rule. That every poet is a fool: But I myself may serve to show it. That every fool is not a poet. [This message has been edited by caul (edited 02-27-2000).] |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I have a headache! I don't know if I want to go lay down or go lie down! |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Hey guys: Just another thought. Couldn't "dying" be considered a gerund and satisfy the requirement of a direct object for the transitive "lay"? Just wondering. Jim |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Poet Devine, Please don't be confused. Grammar should elucidate, not obfuscate. Just remember that when you talk about yourself you should use lie -- I want to lie down. When you want to do something to something/one else, use lay -- I lay the book on my side of the bed everynight. Oh, yeah, there's the other 'lay' as well but let's not talk about that one. Let's use the same examples I used before: I will sit down. (talking about myself) I will seat you. (talking about someone else) Of course, there is "As I lay me down to sleep" which fits Jim's transitive fixation. Speaking of Jim, Are you actually going to argue that legal jargon is formal language and everything else is slang? What hell are trying to bring about here? "Lay down the gun!" -- sounds right to me "Lay the gun!" -- sounds very strange to me or are you arguing that it should be "Lay the gun down" -- my aren't we getting particular these days? Yes, sometimes you have to use that structure but I don't think it sufficiently generalizable to start correcting people at every instance. What about "I will hang up the telephone." Is that also slang? Both phrases are in my phrasal verb dictionary. I don't see how you can see 'dying' in this context as a gerund but I'm listening. Presumably, you are arguing that it is the object of the verb -- "As I lay [my] dying at your feet, you shrugged and moved on with your life." I'm curious. Is there really any other way to do this? How else can we become better and more precise writers except through conversation? That, or memorizing the entire OED? Book explanations aren't always as clear as they should be. Brad PS I'm having fun. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I thought I'd give the full quote of where Faulkner said he got the idea for the title. It is from the Odyssey: "As I lay dying the woman with the dog's eyes would not close my eyes for me as I descended into Hades" It's a dead man talking. Brad |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
AYE before EEE... except after SEA... For a perfect score, caul gets a prize here, of course.. Brad, in that context - "As I lay dying" - the verb is correct anyway. The speaker is using the past tense, already being dead. So he's no longer lying... He "lay" previously... Isn't this fun?? |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Here's one for you... "Now I LAY me down to sleep"... Correct? Incorrect? ...and PdV - Keep your mind out of the Adult Forum here!! |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Nan, you obviously haven't seen my post in Spiritual! I can lay down a thoughtful poem without having to lie to myself!  |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Correct, transitive. Pete. |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
Strunk & White is usually referenced as the definitive resource to answer such questions .... I've looked all over for my copy; unfortunately, I can't find it. I layed it down somewhere the other night right before I lied down to go to sleep. No lie. I also wanted to make a comment to Munda. If English is your second language, I commend you, my friend! You clearly have a much better grasp of it than some of us who speak English as our first and only language. I often wonder (is the 't' pronounced in 'often'), why they chose English as today's "international" language. It has so many idiosyncracies, confusing idioms, and idiotic excuses for breaking basic rules! Is it because those countries with English as their native language are just powerful enough to say, "No, you learn how WE speak! Otherwise, we're not talking"? LOL. Well, I certainly digressed there, didn't I? Guess I need to go lie down. Too tired to stay on the subject. *grin* Please forgive, k? doreen |
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Jannel Member
since 2000-01-18
Posts 492Muncie, IN, USA |
doreen- the "t" is NOT pronounced! neither is the "w" in 'sword,' nor the "l" in 'almond.' (i'm currently taking a voice/diction class)  Jannel |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
FYI "The Elements of Style: Third Edition" reads: "Lay. A transitive verb. Except in slang ("Let it lay"), do not misuse it for the intransitive verb lie. The hen, or the play, lays and egg; the llama lies down. The playwright went home and lay down." It would seem, then, the transitive "lay" would be correct in this case (thanks for the full quote, Brad). And as for legal jargon being formal English, I don't think it is but because I understand it I consider myself bi-lingual. Jim |
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Munda Member Elite
since 1999-10-08
Posts 3544The Hague, The Netherlands |
YEEK ! I knew I should not have come back here ! I should have stayed outside playing! It was all so perfectly clear to me, after my simple explanation ! ARGH !! Im more confused than ever before !!!!! And that is no lie. Gee, thanks Doreen (blush). I try....I try... |
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