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Would you? |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Given the chance, would you want to witness the execution of Timothy McVeigh? Explain..... I would not. Not only do I think it's gruesome, I don't believe in the death penalty. Seems to me we are doing exactly what we tell criminals NOT to do...kill someone. My two cents. |
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PhaerieChild Senior Member
since 1999-08-30
Posts 1787Aloha, Oregon |
No, I would not want to witness the execution of Timothy McVeigh, anymore than I wanted to see the horrific acts caused by him in Oklahoma City. I do not believe in the death penalty for the same reason as PdV. We tell people not to kill, but the governments sanction it. I also believe that he should never be allowed out on the streets though, because he is so dangerous. Keeping him locked up is not a panacea either. I don't know what the answer is. My heart goes out to all of the families and survivors of the bombing and can understand their hatred of Mcveigh. Lord knows I may feel the same way had it touched my life so directly. No, I think I can do without witnessing his execution. How can you save me? |
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Temptress
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-06-15
Posts 7136Mobile, AL |
I wouldn't want to see it. I think it would be useless to watch. He's being excuted/punished. I think we glorify violence and death enough already. Why add another to the mixture? What would be the point in publicizing the execution? |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
I'm of two minds about this. Personally, even his crime is not as ghastly or disgusting as the media circus surrounding his execution. Smacks too much of Faces of Death to me, only Prime Time and sanctioned by the outraged, voyeuristic masses eager for fresh entertainment...as long as it's not them on the girney. On the other hand, I feel that criminals and inmates are too coddled and cared for, with those on Death Row (or even lower) having access to facilities that the majority of the populace does without. Hemp rope is cheap and can be reused... Public executions, despite encouraging the atmosphere mentioned earlier, would serve as a tacit reminder of the consequences of actions...or at least the consequences of getting caught. [This message has been edited by Alicat (edited 05-10-2001).] |
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Marina Member Elite
since 2000-02-10
Posts 2245Pickering, Ontario |
Would I want to be witness to the actual execution? Personally, I don't think I would. Here in Canada, we do not have the death penalty anymore and haven't had in over 40 years. I DO believe however in having the death penalty though. Let me explain why. 1. I have never seen a dead man kill again. Perhaps this opinion comes from the fact that here in Canada we release killers after a VERY short time in prison. It also makes no difference here whether you killed 1 or 20 people, the sentence is basically the same. 2. Why should people (particallary the family of the victims) pay to keep some psycho living in better conditions then some honest citizens live. Further more, I do believe that exections should be shown on public television. Of course whether one chooses to watch or not is certainly up to the individual. I do believe it may become a deterant to those who think they will never get caught and it won't happen to them. I don't know if I could in all honesty be witness to it, but I think that those who commit serious crimes such as rape, murder,child molestation just as examples, should be made to watch it. I think it may help in their "rethinking" of any thoughts of repeating their actions. I would very much like to see the death penality returned here in Canada. We allow criminals far to many rights and not enough rights to the victims. Our young offenders receive nothing more then a slap on the wrist here for any crime they may commit including rape and murder. My opinions may sound very harsh to some, but I will not apoligise for that. After all, we need only be a victim once to know the pain, frustration and anger that comes with dealing with such issues. Great question Sharon. I am sure there will be very interesting points of view on this subject. Thanks everyone for letting me state my opinions. Marina |
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Acies
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 2000-06-07
Posts 7665Twilight Zone |
I do not believe on the death penalty No matter what, nobody has the right to take anyone's life regardless of what they have done. You cannot right a wrong with another wrong. So, I won't dare see it. "So long as men can breathe or eyes can see, |
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Irie Senior Member
since 1999-12-01
Posts 1493Washington State |
Nope, I wouldn't want to see any of it. Not even him entering the room. Not only is the death penaly gruesome, it costs more money to put one man to death than it does to keep 10 in prison for life. Go figure. Let them sit and be tormented by the wrong that they have done. ~Sheri |
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White Wolf Member
since 1999-09-18
Posts 371Somewhere in the vast wasteland |
I would like to witness the death. Death is sacred to me. It is the passing of one's soul to a greater place. Whether that place is one of bliss or torement. Personally I think that the death penalty is not used as it should be. I feel that if you take someone's life that you have forfieted your own life. As for the expense of the method, I tend to agree with Alicat, a rope is cheaper. But if that is too cruel for your tastes a good axe will work just as well. But then again a rope isn't quite as cruel as poison. Basicly an eye for an eye is what I believe. If a man rapes a woman he is put away for so many years and released so he can do it again. Doesn't make sense if you ask me. I say just take away his ability to rape or have sex for that matter and he can do it no more and he also must make some sort of restitution for his crime. Anyway I have gotten off of the subject so I will leave it at that. The White Wolf If life is just a game, when does it end cause I want to get to what is real. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Hang on - is this execution going to be televised over there? OMG that's revolting. Purely disgusting...and not just because it's a 'death' either. To televise (assuming that happened) would be to create a sensationalist motivation for the death - harking back to the 'old days' of public executions. A practice 'we' have labelled as barbaric apparently - and I agree...I could go on and on lol. White Wolf - this statement irks me: 'It is the passing of one's soul to a greater place.' It's a romanticised view point in my opinion.  K |
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Just A Woman Senior Member
since 2001-03-10
Posts 507 |
I would have no problem whatsoever in witnessing it. It's practically going to be in my backyard. If I were the family of one of the many he killed I would most likely feel the need to see it done. I'm only sad that it's going to be by lethal injection. He deserves alot worse. "I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one." |
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White Wolf Member
since 1999-09-18
Posts 371Somewhere in the vast wasteland |
Severn- I guess it all depends on what one believes. As for me I believe what I stated above. First you must take that statement in the context set forth in the next statement or sentence. In light of this let's take a look at the current situation from my "angle". First, and I think you will agree, he could never get as much suffering as he has caused. He will pass into a "greater" place in that this place can and will give him the punishment he rightfully deserves. So greater in this sense simply means a place where full judgement and punishment can and will be dealt to a measure beyond what we can comprehend. Romaticised? I don't really think so. Hope this clears that statement up a bit for you. The White Wolf If life is just a game, when does it end cause I want to get to what is real. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Have to say WW I'm going to keep arguing with you here - lol...  (I am afraid this might end up as something you might find in philosophy..)So Timothy McVeigh will go to a greater place - which translates to a place where he receiving judgment and punishment. How do you figure that? Which entity informed you of its truth? Is there any epistemological reasoning behind that statement? How do you KNOW that, because I note you don't say 'I THINK this will happen' - you state it as quite factual..and this fact lends itself to the idea that you'd like to watch the life sucked out of a human because it's a 'sacred' process. Hmmm. I find your reasoning a little flawed. Simply because it invokes issues of morality here. And the implication that there is one law of morality for all. Which somehow you have absolute proof of. Which I don't think you do - because you are not dead yet and haven't experienced it. I don't think you can be speaking from a Christian perspective, because one of the main tenets there is grace - and people go to 'hell' because they choose not to love God. (I know - I used to attend church.) God doesn't send people to hell at all actually - we choose to go ourselves, and we certainly don't go there because of bad deeds. Which can seem like an injustice when we think of the suffering some people cause - but there it is. Good works are meaningless when deciding your place of residence in the afterlife in Christian philosophy. So what is it? What do you 'follow'? Or have you taken an amalgation of beliefs? I'm just really interested in HOW you have decided that these greater places exist. KAll obscurity starts with a danger: |
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Dee Member Elite
since 2000-08-19
Posts 2330Queensland, Australia |
No matter what the crime I don't agree with the death penalty. So I could not even consider watching it. Dee I wish you every happiness and may you always have the best of the good things in life. a brand |
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White Wolf Member
since 1999-09-18
Posts 371Somewhere in the vast wasteland |
As to your first statement Severn, after the one stating you are going to argue the point, yes he will be. "How do you figure that? Which entity informed you of its truth? Is there any epistemological reasoning behind that statement?" -First off I was raised in a christian church but my belief system is a bit different but based on the same principles. The bible does state that after death our spirit or soul goes to a place to be judged and we are rewarded and punished accordingly. If you would like I can provide verses to support the issue. As to which entity, are you implying that there might be more than one, well I wold say the bible or the word of God is suffecient enough. As to the last question I do not understand that large word and have no idea as to what it means but I suspect that I have already answered it. "How do you KNOW that, because I note you don't say 'I THINK this will happen' - you state it as quite factual..and this fact lends itself to the idea that you'd like to watch the life sucked out of a human because it's a 'sacred' process." -Question. Will anyone who believes something say that they think they know it? If they do then they have cast the shadow that they are not entirely sure about it and so they are not certain in their belief. How can anyone truely believe in something they doubt? And yes, death is a sacred process and should be observed or respected properly, not that I expect anyone to do it just because I believe it. "I find your reasoning a little flawed. Simply because it invokes issues of morality here. And the implication that there is one law of morality for all. Which somehow you have absolute proof of. Which I don't think you do - because you are not dead yet and haven't experienced it." -Well the bible does teach that there is one law of morality for all. Unless I am misreading what you have said. As to actual proof, well that is why it is call a belief, no proof is necessary to believe. "I don't think you can be speaking from a Christian perspective, because one of the main tenets there is grace - and people go to 'hell' because they choose not to love God. (I know - I used to attend church.)" -Now I could make many comments on this alone. I have stated before about where I derived my beliefs from and I am unsure as to which church you went to but I think you have oversimplified the requirements to go to "hell" or "heaven" for that matter. People go to "hell" because they has "sinned" and the only way to be "saved" from it or to go to "heaven" is to accept God's gift of his Son taking our "sins", He did this through grace, thus making us "clean again". At least that is what my old church taught. "God doesn't send people to hell at all actually - we choose to go ourselves, and we certainly don't go there because of bad deeds. Which can seem like an injustice when we think of the suffering some people cause - but there it is. Good works are meaningless when deciding your place of residence in the afterlife in Christian philosophy." -No He doesn't but we are all condemned there from the day we are born. Our choice is to be "saved" or not to be "saved". Too true about good works earning yourself a spot in "heaven" but the bible does say that you will be rewarded or punished for every deed, whether it be goo or bad. Again these are the things my old church taught. Well there you have it. If you need verses, just let me know I will get them for you. I was kind of hoping this wouldn't turn into a religous debate but this is kind of refreshing. Thank you, Severn, and to all of you for tolerating this debate or discussion. The White Wolf If life is just a game, when does it end cause I want to get to what is real. |
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Dopey Dope
Moderator
Member Patricius
since 2000-08-30
Posts 11132San Juan, Puerto Rico |
No way, no how......death is not something i'd like to see done to anybody |
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mariee66 Senior Member
since 2000-01-30
Posts 596Recess, OfYourMind |
This is definitly a touchy subject. I will not watch the execution, for my own moral beliefs, and for the fact that I think it's gruesome. Ethically, the death penalty is as wrong as abortion. Life is life...cytoblast, fetus, neo-nate, child, teen, adult...life is life. Who are we to judge whether someone is worthy of living? If you are a pro-lifer, than it must be unequivocally pro-life--no exceptions. And I noticed someone mentioned something about purgatory--that is a belief in Catholicism. I don't believe many other Christian faiths believe in such a place. From my brother, who is a minister, look at it like this..."your soul can't pray you in to Heaven or curse you to Hell. Your fate is decided when you breathe your last breath." |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
"Thou shalt not kill"... period. I don't believe in the death penalty. Heck, McVeigh WANTS to die, why should we give him what he wants?  "Men judge generally more by the eye than by the hand, for everyone can see and few can feel."-Machiavelli |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
While I have no inclination to want to watch the punishment meted out - I believe that the law of the land is quite clear on the punishment the man is to receive. The LAW states that IF you commit murder, are tried and found GUILTY by a jury of your peers, have exhausted the numerous legal challenges to reverse that opinion, and have failed to do so - the punishment for that crime of murder is execution. In my opinion, we have laws in place that should be enforced. |
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Titia Geertman Member Ascendant
since 2001-05-07
Posts 5182Netherlands |
Sentenced in public? Is this the Middle Ages you're talking about? I'm against the deathpenalty, I think it's useless, it's an easy way out. I think this man should be confronted to what he has done every day of his remaining live, in prison. Death is no punishment, death would be a relief. Titia |
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Alwye
Moderator
Member Elite
since 1999-06-16
Posts 3850In the space between moments |
I am a firm believer in the death penalty. If one person takes a life, they should give theirs up in exchange. In fact, since it's done fairly humanely now, it seems to me like the criminal is getting the better end of the deal. God only knows what kind of suffering the victims of McVeigh's bombing went through before they died. It also strikes me as somewhat odd that many of you think that staying alive would be a punishment because then the criminal would have time to "live with what they've done" so to say. In all reality, most of the mass murders I've seen show no remorse for what they've done. Guilt is absent from McVeigh's mind, he's proved it with his comments. One that made me just sick was him saying that the children that died were just "collateral damage". Men like him are dangerous to stay alive, because there is always the risk that he will be let out or will escape...and I for one never want to see him hurt another person again. The death penalty is well deserved and it's a guarentee that he will never kill again. *Krista Knutson* |
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Dusk Treader
Moderator
Senior Member
since 1999-06-18
Posts 1187St. Paul, MN |
I believe in the death penalty. I think the justice system needs to be made much more rigid and those who commit crimes must face consequences. I for one don't want tax money that could be used for schools and all number of useful things to pay for some scumball rotting away in prison. Prisoners should never be pampered, I'm sick of that. But that's a different topic. But yes, McVeigh should be excuted. He shouldn't be given the slightest chance to recreate his past crimes. People who do things like have twisted minds and keeping them in jail will not cause them to repent, more likely it will harden their resolve in what they are doing. I think we need to get tough on crime. No more pardons, no parole, you did your crime, you pay your fine or except your other consequences. I wouldn't want to watch him be executed though. I don't think there should be so much media either, except to say it's been done. It could easily teach criminals a lesson... or make a martyr... Well, I hope that's coherent.... "There's nowhere to set my aim |
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White Wolf Member
since 1999-09-18
Posts 371Somewhere in the vast wasteland |
mariee66- you stated: "This is definitly a touchy subject. I will not watch the execution, for my own moral beliefs, and for the fact that I think it's gruesome. Ethically, the death penalty is as wrong as abortion. Life is life...cytoblast, fetus, neo-nate, child, teen, adult...life is life. Who are we to judge whether someone is worthy of living? If you are a pro-lifer, than it must be unequivocally pro-life--noexceptions." -One question. What does the bible say about the laws of government? I think it says something about obeying them or face the consequences of breaking thoses laws. I will need to look it up again but I can give you a verse or two if you would like. "And I noticed someone mentioned something about purgatory--that is a belief in Catholicism. I don't believe many other Christian faiths believe in such a place. From my brother, who is a minister, look at it like this..."your soul can't pray you in to Heaven or curse you to Hell. Your fate is decided when you breathe your last breath." -I believe you are talking to me on this one. Although if you reread my earlier posts that what I have said states nothing of purgatory. I state that the soul or spirit goes to a place to be judged and sentenced accordingly. I never said or infered that it was a waiting place where the soul or spirit can be saved because when you die it is too late. The bible does support what I have have said and I don't need any of the ministers in my family or otherwise to tell me what the bible has to say cause I have read and studied it myself. You made a comment about who's right is it to judge. Allow me to point out that you have made a judgement on what little I said about the "afterlife" and assumed that I was talking about purgatory. I would ask that you stop doing this, I find it offensive, or stop preaching about who has the right to judge. The White Wolf If life is just a game, when does it end cause I want to get to what is real. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
White Wolf...I'm just popping in for now..so this will be relatively brief. I guess when I look at something like this I become extremely technical in my viewpoints. I think that now you have explained your motivations it becomes clearer to me. Your first comment sounded a little 'mystical' (hence romanticised - that was how I got that impression). quote: Truly, this is an example of my technical thinking. To me it is a question of semantics. In common speech, we say ' I believe' or 'I feel' or 'I think' rather than IT IS. Shrug...the departure you took from the norm struck me. I myself believe there is only one entity. I have left my hypocritical church but I can't stop believing in God although I question Him constantly and He might not like that lol. quote: In response I guess I will say only this: "If you confess with your mouth, 'that Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.' It does seem oversimplified doesn't it. But there it is. There are of course numerous verses in there that contradict that though. K |
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SEA
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 2000-01-18
Posts 22676with you |
wow....this makes me so sad and VERY angry....this country is overrun with freaks and killers and baby rapists and and.....UGH!! I think the death penalty is TOO nice. I'm SO sick of hearing oh poor them....that is such doo doo....they commited a crime, a serious one to be on death row....how much do you think it costs to feed those beasts? and they get air conditioning....that's great...and I sit here in California with no air on, beacuse I am "doing my part to conserve" and I roast while they have "rights" ya, really? DOO DOO!! I think he sould die, get a rope and hang his sorry butt. Enough is enough....if you are on death row....you should be dead! Period. all these appeals and doo doo that takes years and years that they get to live and a person died by their crulety gets what?! How is that right?!?! I am so sick of hearing the whiners say they have rights....sorry no, they don't. They gave up their rights when they took a life or rapped a baby.....makes me sick.....bleeding hearts....go see them for yourself....visit with them.....you'd run screaming out of there with a whole new out look on life....and the death penalty....I don't ever want to see someone die, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen!! Should it be televised, no that's sick. Little kids could see it.....so no way. Why do we have laws if they aren't to be inforced? Oh he's sorry, he's found God....blah blah blah...load of Doo Doo!!! yea, he's gonna find God.....just as soon as he dies for his crimes.....say what you want, religion shouldn't play into this too deeply....it's a matter of right and wrong....if it was your baby that got blew up in that building, how would you feel? Don't say you'd feel compassion....you'd be mad as heck....because it's not fair! He took lives....he needs to pay......... (whew...ok, I feel better now LOL) SEA[This message has been edited by SEA (edited 05-14-2001).] |
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White Wolf Member
since 1999-09-18
Posts 371Somewhere in the vast wasteland |
Severn- I am glad that we could have this conversation. It is a relief and refreshing to know that some people do try to understand what other's believe and why without them taking it as a threat to what they themselves believe. I believe that this discusion has accomplished explaining how and where I got my beliefs. In the beginning I thought I had stated that this was what I believe and I really saw no need to repeat it throughout my post but maybe I could put it in now and then to remind others that I am only stating what I believe. Thank you for this convesation.SEA- I can see/read the passion you feel about this. I also feel this way but atlas I have confined those emotions for those who ask about them. The White Wolf If life is just a game, when does it end cause I want to get to what is real. |
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Alwye
Moderator
Member Elite
since 1999-06-16
Posts 3850In the space between moments |
Amen to that, SEA. I agree with you. *Krista Knutson* |
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Elizabeth
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 1999-06-07
Posts 6871Minnesota |
Absolutely not. I was thinking about this the other day, and you know what I realized? The families of the bombing victims are angry, understandably so, and this is how they are dealing with their anger. They want Timothy McVeigh to suffer as their friends and relatives suffered. In their eyes, he doesn't deserve to live, because he's a cruel, despicable murderer. Like I said, that's understandable. The thing is, their anger at McVeigh isn't going to magically dissipate when he is executed. It's going to live on a lot longer than McVeigh himself. Every time they think of him, they're going to think, "That sick [insert choice name] got exactly what he deserved! I'm glad he got what was coming to him!" How many of those who want him executed feel that way--revenge, basically--and how many people want him dead so he can't plant any more bombs and kill any more people? Think about that. Executing McVeigh won't take away their anger and pain. It won't bring their loved one back. It seems pointless to me. |
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Elizabeth
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 1999-06-07
Posts 6871Minnesota |
Now that I've gone back and read more comments.... Yes, the death penalty would prevent McVeigh from killing again. It would also prevent only McVeigh from doing so. Another person could decide to emulate him and plant another bomb. I can't justify the killing of another human being. Yes, I know that's what McVeigh did. But I don't justify that, either. |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Elizabeth~ My dear ... it's called justice and it can bring some closure for those families. Unless you have cried the tears of the victims of such irreplaceable loss from such a despicable deed, I don't believe you can speak for the victims. And ... before you ask ... yes, I have been the victim of losing someone I loved to an act of murder. Anger ? Revenge ? ... how about just plain PAIN of losing loved ones ? I found it curiously significant that you chose to dwell on anger and revenge and barely mentioned the insurmountable PAIN the famlies and friends of those murdered have gone through. Lest we forget - 168 people, including 19 children were killed by the actions of this man, Timothy McVeigh. Timothy McVeigh has lived six years since this brutal act - most of the 19 children never got to see six years. The man has been found GUILTY and sentenced by the law. In my opinion the law should be carried out. I won't change your opinion - and you won't change mine but justice will reign. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
White Wolf - thanks for your gracious response. I have definitely enjoyed this conversation lol - I like getting into the nitty gritty and learning about what makes other people tick...Marge(y) - You say justice will reign. I beg to differ. Justice isn't often served at all. And the law is subjective and prone to change - it isn't a reliable thing. Much of justice is politically motivated, corrupted. I think we (the laymen in the world) like to think of justice as a thing that protects us because it helps us to sleep better (to speak metaphorically). In reality? It doesn't work like that. Justice is a tool like any other to be used in controlling our society - it's completely to do with power. K |
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mariee66 Senior Member
since 2000-01-30
Posts 596Recess, OfYourMind |
I'd like to clear something up--I was NOT attacking anyone in this forum, so lighten up. The death penalty IS a touchy subject. There are so many for and against--it is all a matter of what YOU believe in. Back to the purgatory thing--that is the name (in Christianity and if you believe in the place) where souls go to be judged. Some believe they can pray themselves to heaven and others see it as a "holding" place. It's all a matter of what you believe. The Holy Bible is somewhat confusing on some subjects. Death penalty is one. It's all on how YOU interpret the writings. Having taken an Ethics class in college, and debated the death penalty, some things really opened my eyes. Most people are not aware that it costs more to end a life than it does to keep them in prison for life. This is because of all the appeals--where our justice system has flaws. Anyway...enough of my bantering...have to do the work thing... |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
A small thing - this isn't my debate but I have to say that purgatory doesn't feature in Christianity - only Catholicism... K |
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Paula Finn Member Ascendant
since 2000-06-17
Posts 5546missouri |
Would I watch? No...but do I believe? YES!!!!!And not by lethal injection either...my opinion is this...if you have been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt...you should die the vry same way you murdered...he does not deserve a needle in the arm...what he deserves is to sit in a room...never knowing when...just knowing its gonna happen...viscious? Yes I suppose..cruel? Maybe...Justified? Oh hell yes...this was a well planned deliberate act...not a momentary lapse of reason...he KNEW people would die...he just didnt care...he was making a statement...and he did it with the lives of innocent people...thats NOT the epitaph I want on my headstone... |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Purgatory Purgatory, in Christian theology, state of purgation, in which, according to the Roman Catholic and Eastern churches, souls after death either are purified from venial sins or undergo the temporal punishment that, after the guilt of mortal sin has been remitted, still remains to be endured by the sinner. The ultimate happiness of their souls is supposed to be thus secured. On the existence of purgatory Greek and Latin churches are agreed, they also agree that it is a state of suffering. Although the Latins hold that this is by fire, the Greeks do not determine the manner of the suffering, but regard it as being caused by tribulation. The Council of Florence (1439) left this free for discussion. The medieval doctrine and practice regarding purgatory were among the grounds for the protest of the Waldenses and were rejected by the Reformers. Protestants held that salvation had been achieved for humankind by Christ and was obtained by faith in Christ alone. A belief in an intermediate state and a period of education and probation on the other side of the grave has been held and taught in the Anglican church. The British religious leader John Henry Newman drew on the theology of purgatory for his poem "Dream of Gerontius," which the English composer Sir Edward Elgar set to music as an oratorio under the same title. http://encarta.msn.com/find/Concise.asp?ti=0055D000 HOW TO CITE THIS ARTICLE "Purgatory," Microsoft® Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2001 http://encarta.msn.com © 1997-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. ============================================= http://www.catholic.com/answers/tracts/_purgatr.htm ============================================= |
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brian madden Member Elite
since 2000-05-06
Posts 4374ireland |
death often makes martyrs and besides what is the use in one murder for another. That is what the death penalty is... murder. Personally I think that the entire prison system should be changed. You commit such a crime you give up your human rights. These people should be forced to live in harsh conditions, hard harbour chain gangs. Besides death is too quick. I can going to say no more because I am an outsider and this is very much an American issue and I don't want to start a debate off on punishment and prison matters. "difference between love and comfortis that comfort's more reliable and true |
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Skyfyre Senior Member
since 1999-08-15
Posts 1906Sitting in Michael's Lap |
In some fashion, I agree with all of you ... Once upon a time, I was a strong supporter of the death penalty as a deterrant. I tried to put myself in the shoes of the victims' families -- those who lost a wife/husband/parent/child ... and I became angry enough to want to kill the perpetrator with my own hands, in some instances (especially child murders ... I can't even watch these things on the news without getting teary and incensed). On further consideration, however, what does the death penalty achieve? I will put all considerations of faith, including heaven and hell, aside for the moment ... Is it a deterrant? I don't believe so. What murderer commits his crime believing that he will be caught? Somehow I don't think that anyone who believes he has that sort of power over the life or death of another feels any sort of vulnerability to death himself. Or, perhaps, he is fascinated by it ... and simply too cowardly to commit suicide ... Granted, one might acknowledge the cost-effectiveness of the death penalty ... but then, how much do all those appeals that a death-row resident is entitled to cost, exactly? Not exactly a great bargain for the taxpayers ... no more than life in jail, I'd warrant. If we want to talk "deterrant," I think we need to impose something even more gruesome than a murderer could imagine. Medical research, perhaps? There are thousands of potential cures and lifesaving procedures which only need human subjects to be tested or perfected ... why subject innocents, even volunteers, to this sort of thing when there is such a "deserving" crowd right in the local Pen? Even better, why not cut open their brains and see what, exactly, MAKES a murderer -- and see if we can prevent it? ... or, for those with weaker constitutions, perhaps chain gangs are the answer. REAL chain gangs, who do DIFFICULT and DANGEROUS work. I don't have too many idea on a certain job, here ... anyone want to suggest something ...? Public executions are definitely not the answer ... medieval, I believe someone mentioned. We have evolved, I hope ... at least most of us. Taking pleasure in watching someone die is not normal or healthy ... and if you don't take pleasure in it, why watch it? To traumatize your children?  OK, so I'm cold, cruel ... but only selectively. God help the person who thought to do harm to MY family .... grrrr ... Linda |
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bslicker
since 2000-12-04
Posts 2321state of mind |
My answer, in one word NOT A smile a day keeps the world in smile's. |
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anonymousfemale Member Elite
since 2000-02-02
Posts 2797Limbo |
I definitely would. To me, the death penality isn't wrong. Anyway, I'd watch it because I'm a sicko and would love to see that kind of thing. ~AF~ Life is a mystery to be lived, not a problem to be solved." |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Tell me AF - are you saying that to get attention? Just curious... K |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, I disagree with a lot of things here (no surprise there) but another question has been bothering me. My initial reaction was 'no' but as a writer, is that enough to keep me away from it? Isn't their a certain obligation involved to go and record your experiences if only to deter others from doing the same and possibly persuade others of the inhumanity of the death penalty? Brad PS If you're pro-death penalty, what kind of spin could you put on it if you were actually there? |
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Greg_s Junior Member
since 2000-11-23
Posts 36Los Angeles, CA |
I think I'll stay away from the death penalty issue for right now. So, in answer to the original question (I think), I would not watch the execution if it was televised. This got me thinking though. I would posit this: I think that anyone who wishes should be allowed and given access to watch any execution they please. Although I don't think this sort of prospect is at all enticing, it seems to me that to interpret the laws and constitution in a fair way, the public should be allowed to watch any execution, if they so desire. I say this because once a criminal has been proven guily and is sentenced to die, he gives up a certain amount of his rights. No longer is he allowed the rights of a normal citizen, but instead only has the normal rights accorded to prisoners. In this respect, I do not think that he would really hvae a right to a private execution. I would possibly cite something to the effect of the public's right to information act to justify seeing any execution that occurs in America. The bottom line is, I don't think that the government has the right to deny someone who wishes to view an execution. And then again, how many people want to? Once again, I wouldn't watch, yet there seems to be something wrong with not allowing those who want to watch such a privelidge. Regardinig Brad's question, I think it would be very difficult to produce an overall objective account of an execution. I think it should be documented for posterity. Perhaps video is a better medium. There is a really great old French film that deals with documentation and medium of such called "La Jette." I could not perform such a task, I would be much too subjective. |
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catalinamoon
since 2000-06-03
Posts 9543The Shores of Alone |
No I would not watch. I have the worst problem with that, I cannot even watch a good movie that will have an execution scene. It horrifies me too much, the ability of the State, the Country, whoever, to take this into its own hands, and force someone to walk into a room to their death, knowing it, forseeing it. However, as opposed as I am to the death penalty in general, this is surely an exception. I only wish one of the mothers of the many children killed, could choose and be allowed to do it, herself. But again, I usually feel that it is wrong, especially in that so many people NOW that have been on death row, are being proven innocent. Think about it. How horrible to die becuase someone thought you looked like someone, or you were in the wrong area at the wrong time. And as a system rebel from way back, it just generally infuriates me when the country takes away the rights of human beings. (not that McVeigh fully qualifies) |
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