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Sven
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0 posted 2001-05-09 06:58 PM


I'm annoyed by a lot of things these days. . . most of which I can't really do anything about. . . and that's what really annoys me about them. . . that I can't do anything about them. . . well, except rant to you all about them!!  There's something that I'd like to talk to you all about today. . . and, while I probably won't change your mind about it, I hope that I can definitely get you to think about it, and, of course, begin some lively debate on the subject!  

Your topic is this:

Who decides what's cliche and what isn't?

I mean, who died and left certain people in charge to tell us what's cliche and what's isn't?  And why do those people seem to think that they're better than the rest of us because they do know what's cliche and what isn't?  And, how do they know?  Do they have the market on this?  Do they know something that we don't?

And, why do these people seem to take great joy and delight in telling us when we're being cliche?  I mean, (GENERALIZATION ALERT!!!!!!) isn't almost everything that's written these days (and perhaps most of what's been written in the past) cliche in some form or another?  Just the same ideas written down differently?  And sometimes, do we even notice or care that it's cliche?  Or do we just pay attention to the fact that it's by one of our favorite authors and/or poets and leave it alone?  

In other words, do we say, "Oh look, this is by insert favorite author's name here. . . and sure it might be the same story that's been done before, but because it's by him/her, it's really good!"

Well. . . thank you all. . . I await your responses. . . (and I know that there will be several). . . with great anticipation!!!



----------------------------------------------------------------------


To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world.

© Copyright 2001 John Garcia - All Rights Reserved
Joricho
Member
since 2001-05-06
Posts 56
Australia
1 posted 2001-05-09 07:35 PM


People can of course be mighty condescending about cliche. And of course it's a subjective category. But especially in poetry, it's so disappointing when someone uses an image or phrase that has been used a million times before -
it lands
like a thud
on the ear -
without any kind of interesting mental reverberations.
Of course, playing with and subverting cliche is a different matter and a very powerful thing indeed!
But I AM sorry you're annoyed - I try not to be a language snob!
Jo

SEA
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with you
2 posted 2001-05-09 09:23 PM


Sven~ oh Sven....no one can say....they are just being pompous....don't let it rattle your cage......just ignore them...take it with a grain of salt....sticks and stones....LOL sorry, but I don't care what other people like that say.....I'd spend a lot of time upset if I did......
Severn
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since 1999-07-17
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3 posted 2001-05-09 10:01 PM


Just being pompous? What?

Susan - I don't agree with that at all.

Come on...what is it about a really great novel that holds you? SOME of it is SURELY the originality - either of plot or of writing style...even down to a reduction of a great sentence.

I don't think it's at all appropriate to say 'sticks and stones' in context with criticisms about writing. I for one WANT to stand apart...I want my own style, my own successes and my own originality. If I'm being cliched I want to know about it. Writing takes talent - that's a foundation...it also takes learned skill.

Of COURSE most of what is written about today has been written about before...and there are people out there who will share your own personal style. Cliche can even be used effectively. But it should never be relied upon - and it should also be recognised. Writers need to make the language work for them - and in my opinion, resorting to cliche after cliche is letting oneself become a victim to the overuse of the language.

There is no 'they' who 'invent' cliche...it's a process of determination I think...a collective one. Look at Hollywood movies...girl mets guy under unusual circs. Fall in love. Break up for whatever reason. get back together - great screen kiss at the end. TADUM. Cliche at its finest...that was original in movies in the not so distant past. REPETITION makes cliche. See enough of one idea, one phrase and it just is.

Common phrases:

deep blue eyes
floating clouds
flowing tears/tears flowed

To me - they all, and others like them, equate to BORING AND OVERUSED.

Call me pompous, it doesn't bother me a whit..not if I am successful in recognising that cliche exists and recognising that truly successful writers go beyond it - and if they use cliche, they use it effectively.

There you go Sven.

K

All obscurity starts with a danger:
Your dangers are many. I
Cannot look much but your form suffers
Some strange injury
Sylvia Plath

serenity blaze
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4 posted 2001-05-10 02:27 AM


Gotta love ya K.   And who decides what's cliche? We decide, when we take language and make it common through overuse. But I understand the quandary. What is cliche' to some may be brand new to another. I like this question, because it pertains to a thought I've had often. I am facinated with the subliminal effect of symbolism on the subconscious. (As per Carl Jung's theory of collective unconscious) and often while writing I have had to decide whether to use a more obvious metaphor, and hopefully make my intention clear to a wider audience or perhaps a more personal symbolism...which has often left me frustrated as to whether anyone understands at all!

There was only one thing I could conclude. I write to please ME. After it's written, I'm not really sure if it is my own anymore--I consider it something given away...and they can do what they want with it. Ask Salinger, if HIS work remained his own. Ask Lennon, if HIS intent was always understood. Consider the Bible as literature and poetry and see how often the public agrees to INTENT.

Nope. We write as we live. With only the hope that our best intention shines through.

White Wolf
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since 1999-09-18
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Somewhere in the vast wasteland
5 posted 2001-05-10 03:43 AM


I had to look this word up for the full definition and the only thing I can conclude is that there is(are) no true cliche(s).  A chiche by webster's definition is, "a trite phrase or expression; also : the idea expressed by it".  I think this is the meaning that you are refering to.  The thing that one must realize is that with any language that no one speaks the same language.  Oh sure you may speak "English" and I may speak "English" but the way I speak it is vastly different than the way you speak it.  If I were to ask you "How are you?" and you honestly said, "I am fine."  Then you asked me the same question and I answered the same, does that mean that we are feeling exactly the same?  Of course not.  With that said, I could give many examples but I think you get the idea, can the same words from two different people mean exactly the same?  It is possible but highly unlikely considering that no two people are exactly alike.  But for this to work one must consider the full definition of the word.  I think I have made my point.  As to who can say what is and isn't cliche, well no one truely can.  If someone does, my guess would be that they themselves have a limited understanding of language and the uniqueness of people in general.  They also may use the same words over and over again and consider themselves "cliche".  This idea is also known as projection.  Well that is enough for now.


The White Wolf

Sunshine
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6 posted 2001-05-10 10:31 AM


You know what's NOT trite?  Seeing White Wolf return...[welcome home!]

and a new gripe in the forum.

More on this later!  {~,^}

White Wolf
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since 1999-09-18
Posts 371
Somewhere in the vast wasteland
7 posted 2001-05-10 05:03 PM


Thank you Sunshine.  It is good to be able to write again.  Thanx.
The White Wolf

If life is just a game, when does it end cause I want to get to what is real.

SEA
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with you
8 posted 2001-05-10 05:31 PM


LOL Severn....I was just joking...re read it...almost everything I wrote was cliche....LOL.... it is a matter of personal expression and the growth level of the person doing the writing......and the reading.....over used phrases annoy me, but I try to see past them, to what the author is trying to get across....sorry to tick you off like that LOL but I was so only joking.... really....I'm sorry, should have made that more clear.....   SEA
Severn
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since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

9 posted 2001-05-11 06:48 AM


ROTF!!!!!!

I see...I'm a cliche junkie...I have cliche radar on all the time...I take cliche so seriously it's not funny. In fact, I have an announcement...

go check out announcements and links...

K


Sven
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10 posted 2001-05-11 01:03 PM


And. . . in light of K's Announcement. . .I have a Challenge. . .

Go here: Anti-cliche Challenge and good luck!!!

  

--------------------------------------------------------

To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world.

[This message has been edited by Sven (edited 05-11-2001).]

Jamie
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since 2000-06-26
Posts 3168
Blue Heaven
11 posted 2001-05-11 05:47 PM


on the other hand- wouldn't you love to coin a phrase that one day when someone used it, another person cried "cliche"?...  

There is society where none intrudes, by the deep sea, and music in its roar.
byron

Severn
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since 1999-07-17
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12 posted 2001-05-11 07:22 PM


good idea Sven..will do when I have time...and J...oh but I already have...surely?

K

Just A Woman
Senior Member
since 2001-03-10
Posts 507

13 posted 2001-05-11 09:13 PM


I had to smile as I read this.  I am most likely the queen of cliches.  There are some very serious writers here, and others who write merely for a form of self expression.  I admire greatly those who work so hard at not using cliches, and I suppose there might be a time where I may want to work on mine.  Until then I shall use them freely.  

"I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one."

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
14 posted 2001-05-12 06:34 AM


Trevor once said that a poet's job is to create the cliches for tomorrow. I always liked that.

As far as who determines a cliche, no doubt there is disagreement on the fringes but I think anyone who is a native speaker of the language has a pretty good idea of what a cliche is. For me, I physically cringe when someone writes a poem with something like 'love is like a rose' or 'a needle in a haystack' or 'you can lead a horse to water' (I don't mind them so much in the discussion forum -- they're generally used for economy's sake). I guess it comes down to assumptions -- if you write a poem, I already assume you're an individual and want to show that. If you use cliches, you are muting your own individuality, you're hiding yourself. Poetry, even if one argues that poetry is solely for self expression (I disagree), is still about showing that individuality to others, not about pretending they already know.

My real opinion is actually more complicated than that but I'll stop here.

Okay, one more thing. I had a friend once say to me, "Yeah, that's what I say. Time is money. Get it?" Cliches can leave you quite nauseated because they are often attempts at originality or profundity. If you write a poem with a cliche in it, aren't you in a sense taking credit for something that's already been said?

Brad

PS SEA and Severn, can Severn keep the pompous label? I don't want to be only one around here who's been called that. Severn, now you've got to shoot for pedantic.  


Severn
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since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

15 posted 2001-05-12 07:05 AM


Too late Brad...been there and had that one already  

I WEAR MY LABELS PROUDLY!

pompous K

Sunshine
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16 posted 2001-05-12 09:22 AM


For those of you who would like to see if YOUR poetry contains cliches...

check this out!
http://www.angelfire.com/nd/danscorpio/word3.html




[This message has been edited by Sunshine (edited 05-12-2001).]

Janet Marie
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since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554

17 posted 2001-05-12 09:49 AM


quote:
If you write a poem with a cliche in it, aren't you in a sense taking credit for something that's already been said?



I dont know if thats "fair" to take the use of "cliches" that literally?
If we break it down like that, then in a way, are'nt we accusing nearly all poets, writers, and even song writers of "plagerism."

I am in no way qualified to know where the line is drawn ...
and all I can do is speak for my self and my often cliche kissed poetry...(see     )
I dont think its about taking credit for someone elses words...
If anything it's more paying tribute to those whose works influence us, and whose words left a lasting impression and inspire on us.
Who here has never incorporated a line, or phrase,or image from a favorite song in SOME way into their writing...
I think a lot of it is done with out even realizing it.
Should we try and make it our own and original..of course...thats how we grow as poets ...
and Im still growing  ...
with "miles to go before I sleep"        
Sorry guys...it was just too easy LOL


quote:
Trevor once said that a poet's job is to create the cliches for tomorrow. I always liked that.


That is actually quite brilliant when ya think about it... and a goal all writers should strive for.

Thanks for the wisdom shared Brad...
ya give me lots to think about...
and I like that.    

and Sun... thanks for the link...Im headed there now..but I fear I will see my picture there on a wanted poster LOL




Did you make it to the Milky Way,
see the lights faded
that heaven is overrated
Did you fall for a shooting star
One without a permanent scar

[This message has been edited by Janet Marie (edited 05-12-2001).]

Severn
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since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

18 posted 2001-05-12 06:45 PM


Personally JM, I think it's a kind of cultural osmosis...

cliches just happen - like Brad suggests - because there ARE only a certain amount of words in the language...not so much influence I don't think - more, overused...

K

serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
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19 posted 2001-05-12 06:51 PM


Thanks for the tip, Kari! I've bookmarked that site, found it quite interesting!  
Sven
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20 posted 2001-05-12 09:08 PM


So then, how do we as writers avoid using too many cliches in our work?

And, what do we say to those that would critique and say that we have used cliche in our work?  Although, in some cases, it's unavoidable. . .

Continue to discuss. . .

--------------------------------------------------------

To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world.

Dopey Dope
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21 posted 2001-05-13 03:32 PM


In the end everything and anything might as well become cliche....so why worry
Severn
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since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

22 posted 2001-05-13 11:21 PM


Well I dunno Sven..hmm..here's a recent example of how I tried to avoid it in a poem I wrote recently.

I was in a plane recently and was watching clouds and their shadows.

In a line of poetry I wrote:

'shadows pull their clouds'

instead of clouds chase their shadows which is the standard image...

I guess it really is a case of playing with words isn't it?

K

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
23 posted 2001-05-14 07:24 PM


In a nice coincidence, I just found this.


Cliches
More later,
Brad

[This message has been edited by Brad (edited 05-14-2001).]

Sven
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24 posted 2001-05-14 07:29 PM


quote:
In a line of poetry I wrote:

'shadows pull their clouds'

instead of clouds chase their shadows which is the standard image...


Ok K, but. . . how do you know that that's the standard image?  And, what if you like using the standard image?  What if that fits best into the poem that you're trying to write???

-------------------------------------------------------------

To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world.

kaile
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25 posted 2001-05-24 11:51 AM


im bumping this up because i thought sven has asked some interesting questions and would like to see some responses
Severn
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since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

26 posted 2001-05-24 09:59 PM


Glad it was bumped cause I just noticed this...

How do I know?

Ahhhhhhh...more epistomology! I know because I have read it enough times to assume that it is a cliche. Of course there is no 'knowing' because truth is subjective ra di ra...

But you know as well as I do that really it is.

Of course people can use cliches if they want to - doesn't mean their poetry is going to stand out though does it? Which is fine if they don't want it to.

K

Brad
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Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
27 posted 2001-05-24 11:51 PM


I'll keep playing here (K. -- 'subjective'?)

Let's assume that you have never read a poem, newspaper, a book, a sign, let's assume that you never listen to your friends or to Pop music, watch TV or movies, and let's assume that somewhere along the line you learned how to read (Don't ask me how.)

You read a line of poetry:

the first time: Wow, what a striking comparison.

the second time: hey, I've read this before.

the third time: Again? I wonder if this is some secret society's code?

the forth time: Argh, yet again.

The fifth time: Well, maybe they're just starting out.

The sixth time: Why am I reading this?

The seventh time: silence [eyes glaze over and skimming begins]

The moment you skim, the moment you know something's wrong and, in fact, it's beyond cliche, it's become a form of anesthesia.

Brad


Severn
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28 posted 2001-05-25 06:07 PM


HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

AMEN BRAD.

FABULOUS.


K

(Nothing insightful to say here - just praise and endorsement heh)

Severn
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since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

29 posted 2001-05-25 06:07 PM


(oh - of course subjective...or relative if you will)
Dopey Dope
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30 posted 2001-05-26 04:06 PM


Brad hit it on the dot....

Brad
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Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
31 posted 2001-05-26 05:03 PM


Quick anecdote:

Remember discussing Medieval Japanese poetry in school and remarking on a particularly striking image (I think it was comparing Cherry Blossoms - Sakura - to freshly popped popcorn or something like that). My professor gave me that, "you should know better than that, Brad" look and pointed out that this was a stock phrase in this type of poetry.  

She was right, of course, I should have read more poetry from that period (I still should). I should have recognized it but I didn't. But I still remember that first time and there's certainly nothing that will delegitimize that first feeling,  but there's a problem. There's only one first time.

Brad


Sven
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32 posted 2001-05-26 08:05 PM


Ok. . .

quote:
I know because I have read it enough times to assume that it is a cliche.


That's all well and good, but what about someone else who hasn't?  How are they supposed to know?  What do we tell them when we discover that their writing is, what we would call Cliche?  Read more poetry?  Is that really the only way that we can avoid using cliche?  

And who says that your assumptions are correct?  I know that it's all in the mind of the beholder, but still. . .

quote:
You read a line of poetry:

the first time: Wow, what a striking comparison.

the second time: hey, I've read this before.

the third time: Again? I wonder if this is some secret society's code?

the forth time: Argh, yet again.

The fifth time: Well, maybe they're just starting out.

The sixth time: Why am I reading this?

The seventh time: silence [eyes glaze over and skimming begins]


The first time: Wow, what a striking comparison

The second time: Hey, this says more than that. . .

The third time: Wow, I love how this applies in this way. . .

The fourth time: I never really thought of it that way. . .

The fifth time: Did I tell you that I came up with another thought?

The sixth time: This just gets better every time I read it. . .

The seventh time: This now ranks as one of the masterpieces of literature. . .

That being said. . . who says that you only get one first time?  

Does a poem, or a book get worse each time you read it?  Possibly, if you don't like it. . . but does it if you do like it?  And how do you know what you like and what you don't like?  Is it convention?  Society?  Genetics?

What I'm trying to say is that you can say that "You only get one first time" and I can say "You get lots of first times". . . but who's right?  And why?

Why is a movie like Pearl Harbor which has been called "Trite", "Cliche", and "Unimaginative" possibly going to make millons of dollars worldwide?  

Is it because we like cliches?  Is it because of the hype?  Is it because the world loves Ben Affleck?  Why???

I await your further comments. . .  

-----------------------------------------------------------------

To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world.

Severn
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since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

33 posted 2001-05-26 08:40 PM


Oh it's Ben Affleck for sure. I'm sure we'll never see a movie from Hollywood with the classic love story involved in it called 'Vietnam' either. Sitting here in my little country all I hear is 'Pearl Harbour? Who wants to go see another piece of American nationalistic, propaganda crap?' It's a cliche to us simply because it's another Armageddon/Independence Day with a different stage set. But that is an entirely different conversation too.

Now. Where is your argument going exactly? Are you talking about cliches in your own personal writing or cliches in general?

I think it started out being about one's own personal writing yes? In relation to that then - how does one learn what are cliches IF one wants to avoid them?

THEY READ.

There are NO excuses for not knowing what common cliches are. Read read read read read.

Simple.
It really is.

There is no step to step guide of searching out cliches...I don't think it's too difficult really.

Do we like cliches? I don't think they would've become cliches if we hadn't liked them lol...they get overused cause they sound good yanno. Also, remember I mentioned previously that of course cliches can still get used, but the trick is to use them effectively.

quote:
Does a poem, or a book get worse each time you read it?  Possibly, if you don't like it. . . but does it if you do like it?  And how do you know what you like and what you don't like?  Is it convention?  Society?  Genetics?


This could start an entirely new, long, drawn-out argument. (If Brad got going on it you wouldn't shut him up heh.)

How about Sven - it's a mix of all three..but don't start asking about ratios... heh

K

[This message has been edited by Severn (edited 05-26-2001).]

brian madden
Member Elite
since 2000-05-06
Posts 4374
ireland
34 posted 2001-05-27 07:11 PM


in some sense I feel like the king of cliché god I have written about the same emotions feelings and have latched on to the same words over and over again.

If we taken it into context everything is clichéd all the stories have been written and yet we still do not understand the human condition. Clichés I think are the lazy images that everyone excepts, the hallmark ones about cute bunnies the dark ones about grey skies etc.

We are all guilty of them at some stage but then at times we can tap into a subject that should by now be on the top list of clichés: love. and people go wow that was beautiful. So clichés I think are down to laziness lack of imagination if we really search work at our poetry then clichés will be avoided.


"you are what you own in this land, you can be king and it all depends on the view and what you can see"  Whipping boy

Brad
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since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
35 posted 2001-05-27 11:12 PM


I don't have time to go into everything here but Sven, Kamla's right -- you are touching on some points near and dear to my heart.  

Quickly:

On reading:

"That's all well and good, but what about someone else who hasn't?  How are they supposed to know?  What do we tell them when we discover that their writing is, what we would call Cliche?  Read more poetry?  Is that really the only way that we can avoid using cliche?"

--Well, yeah. Read, listen, watch what others do. It's all there. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be a cliche.
  
"And who says that your assumptions are correct?  I know that it's all in the mind of the beholder, but still. . ."

--Why does this bother you? Anybody can be wrong on a specific point. You have to make up your own mind. How does one do that? Does the image or phrase conjure up a vibrant feeling, a newness, or can it be skimmed because it's already been said? Here, the question involves whether you are trying to read the words or trying to get through the words (telepathic empathy).

"Does a poem, or a book get worse each time you read it?  Possibly, if you don't like it. . . but does it if you do like it?  And how do you know what you like and what you don't like?  Is it convention?  Society?  Genetics?"

--Sven, if you have time, please check out the philosophy thread on psuedo-intellectualism. I think, hope my position is clear there.


"What I'm trying to say is that you can say that "You only get one first time" and I can say "You get lots of first times". . . but who's right?  And why?"


--This one's easy. How do you define first time? There is also only one second time, one third time and so forth. To say there are many first times is either to take my sentence out of context (yes, there's a first time for laughter and a first time for crying etc.) or to reify the words to where they no longer have meaning.

"Why is a movie like Pearl Harbor which has been called "Trite", "Cliche", and "Unimaginative" possibly going to make millons of dollars worldwide?"

--It's safe, visually satisfying, and you already know how it ends. It perpetuates the idea of certainty and self importance. Everybody loves that.  
  

Sven, you seem to be searching for some sort of objective foundation (there isn't any), and if so, you are kind of indirectly proving a point I've made elsewhere -- subjectivity needs objectivity to stabilize itself.

But that's another thread.

Talk to ya later,
Brad

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