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Master of Fate
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Master of Fate |
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merc Junior Member
since 2003-10-15
Posts 35 |
I recently bought a hardcover edition of Edgar Allan Poe's selected works. I haven't written poetry in over 5 years and I really didn't have any interest to. Until, that is, I started reading some of Poe's work. I absolutely loved it, so as an ode to Edgar Poe I wrote this poem. You'll notice that the form is exactly that of The Raven in meter and rhyme (at least it's supposed to be) and although I doubt I've captured it completely I tried to make this poem dark and somewhat sinister. Once upon an eve, Disaster! While the darkness rushes faster- past the valley and the Tressel, coursing through me as I wait. While I'm standing cold and shivered, full of hatred just delivered- from a path walked yon and hither, "Will my lingering abate?" "Tis his twisted, evil pleasure forcing me to stand and wait. Blast you, he who holds my fate!" Who is he who wears my fury, why is he my judge and jury. How I wish I'd not partaken in this lusty devils bait! While I muttered frozen, cursing, running through my speech, rehearsing- lips are numbing, puckered, pursing; a Carriage sailed up to the gate. There it stopped and seemed to shudder, shaking off a dew of hate- Heralding my coming fate! Steeped in evil, stern to bow; this Carriage turns to face me now. Out he steps and swishing scepter splits the fevered wind like slate: face is wrought from ice and terror, hands wield evil as it's bearer- 'course it could just be my error; drawing him a devils gait. Through the darkness he comes striding; striding as I lie in wait. Him! The man who holds my fate "How are you this even' sir?" I offer him like gold and myrrh. Now he settles, stoic, standing naming me a reprobate. "I must say, although I'm well this is a rummy place to dwell" words that rung thick like a knell. "And to cite the hour, Late! This, a most unlikely setting for a premier business date!" 'Curse you devil of my fate.' "Thank you," he said quite severely. "And I mean that most Sincerely- Now I hope you're fain to hear the opportune I'm poised to state!" As I stood there vexed and harried he reached to the bag he carried There he rummaged long and tarried; tarried while I stood irate "How is it you came to flourish yet you can't direct your freight? You! The man who holds my fate." "I fear I do not understand." The words came from him paltry, bland. "I am here, as is my station, to discuss your son's estate!" "I'll not leave you uncontested; I'll not leave your words digested- You've got interest thus invested! I implore you tell me straight!" He appeared thus, horror stricken; frozen in a mute debate. "Speak, you Devil of my fate!" Now the heavens started swirling, as this heathens plot, unfurling- brought to bear upon my chest a sick and unforgiving weight. But without a word of wrath he turned and started up the path- perhaps a sojourn to Alnath, A trip on neigh to lay in wait! I will not be lowly, waiting, waiting for time to relate- and reap his sowing of my fate. Cease! the heavens awful churning, while the Carriage yonder turning- 'round a hill and out of site although my vision followed late. As I am not one to be bested, I've stayed wake but poorly rested I'll not falter when I'm tested, tested on my own estate! So no matter what the outcome please let there be no debate- that I'm the man who holds my fate! I seriously hate posting formed poetry in a message board because it ALWAYS screws the formatting! [This message has been edited by merc (10-16-2003 12:11 AM).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Hello merc, and welcome to the forum. Although this is one of my favorite subjects, it is getting late and I have a busy day tomorrow. I'll get back to this one later. Meanwhile, I suggest you never claim anything to be exactly like anything else, particularly when it comes to rhyme and meter, unless you are absolutely sure that is the case. Even then, you are likely mistaken. Pete |
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merc Junior Member
since 2003-10-15
Posts 35 |
I want the Structure to match so if you see any inconsistencies please let me know! |
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Local Parasite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527Transylconia, Winnipeg |
I honestly tried to read your poem, but I'm far too aware that when people say "I like 'The Raven'" they really mean "I like his use of Trochaic Octameter and I don't even realize it." How do I know? I've asked a million people who said they loved The Raven, to tell me what it is about, and none of them could really come up with an answer off the top of their head. Poe devised a brilliant use of the meter form, which worked very well with his poem. In my opinion, imitating the work of genius that is someone else's use of original structure, is halfway to plagiarism. I had a hard time appreciating your poem for what it's probably worth, just because the imitation of that poem so annoyed me. I've read a million that did the same thing, half of which didn't even know the first thing about meter, but could tell there was something fishy about the syllables in The Raven and set forth to do the same thing. I don't mean to offend you. I wanted to read your whole poem so I could justify this comment, and now I've ended up justifying why I haven't read past the second stanza of the poem, but because you so insist that you're blatantly copying Poe's form, I feel like I'm not out-of-line with my comments here. I'd advise that you learn the basics of meter and rhyme---they're not difficult---and see how creative they'll allow you to be without letting someone else do the formatting for you. I love coming up with a catchy meter/rhyme scheme, as I'm sure Poe did... it's a great feeling. Try it out. Parasite Faith is a fine invention |
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merc Junior Member
since 2003-10-15
Posts 35 |
How possible is it to write something that no one before you has done, especially when you wholly ignore theme and talk explicitly about structure? I'm not even pretending to be a poet here, let alone an innovator. As I said, I haven't written poetry in over 5 years (since I was in high school) and that was almost exclusively pretentious crap. Thanks for almost taking the time to read the poem. |
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Local Parasite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527Transylconia, Winnipeg |
Oh... I'm sorry, I honestly didn't mean to offend you. I'm just suggesting that imitation might not be the best reason to write a poem... You can disagree with me, I'm not preaching, just letting you know my response and why it was so, for what it's worth. If it's not worth anything then I'm willing to accept that. |
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merc Junior Member
since 2003-10-15
Posts 35 |
How can you write something like this and not expect it to offend me? With barely a pause for breath you said I: 1)Don't understand the poem 2)Am half a plagarist 3)Annoyed you with the 12 lines that you bothered to read. 4)Am merely one in a 'million' others who don't know a thing about meter Now maybe all these things are true but you didn't even give me the benefit of the doubt nor did you bother to ask me about anything. Maybe I don't get the subliminal meanings to "The Raven" but how can you judge that without even reading my poem first? Plagarist! All I can say on this is your lucky I can't swear in these forums. I'm glad my poem annoyed you, and I'm greatly touched that while you couldn't bring yourself to finish it you still found the time to tell me all your wonderful groundless impressions of me and my work. I don't know anything about meter, I've never gone to school to learn poetry forms, and I doubt I will ever. I came here to learn about it, and instead I found out that I think "Trochaic Octameter" is pretty. Trochaic Octameter might as well be the scientific name for a Giraffe's penis for all the meaning that has to me. But instead of explaining it to me, which I thought would be the aim of a Critical Analysis forum, you just slap me in the face with the fact that you get it and I don't. Well I didn't come here to measure [Edit by moderator] with poets, I came here to figure out what was wrong with a poem that I had, to the limited extent of my knowledge, finished. Maybe I'm misreading and you did really try to motivate me into some ground-breaking realm of poetic innovation. The impression I got was you were simply pissed off at me for wasting your time or something. Well, for lack of more eloquent terms, you can grab a handful of nails [edit by moderator] because I find your criticism neither constructive nor friendly. [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (10-17-2003 09:32 PM).] |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Merc For what it's worth I thought you did a pretty good job with this. I see absolutely nothing whatever wrong with trying to emulate a master. In fact for a budding poet trying to learn about different forms and techniques I think it is an extremely good exercise to play around a bit. Do whatever the heck you want is my advice if you think it's helping you to learn. I for one have written many poems that I openly acknowledged were just steps along the way, like learning to shape building blocks waayyyy before you even attempt to think of your OWN way of putting them together. That is a sensible approach imo. Far better than what usually happens here where people post their “individual” poems believing them to be the greatest thing since Shakespeare ... lol. I went through a Betjeman phase and a Dylan Thomas phase where I did nothing else but try and emulate their style - and it was great fun! Also you have written here a poem which is largely free from grammatical and spelling error and shows a very good grasp of vocabulary, to me that shows care and concern and consideration for the people here who have to read. I’‘m not going to give you a full blown crit on this as Pete is the person for that having attempted to do exactly what you have done with a poem of his own based on “The Raven”. I don’t think he’d mind me posting the link: /pip/Forum22/HTML/000525.html#5 I know Pete is a great Poe fan and will be able to give some pretty good advice. Take care  )R |
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merc Junior Member
since 2003-10-15
Posts 35 |
Robtm1965, Thank you very much for taking the time to read and respond to this. I greatly appreciate your feedback and especially the link. That poem was great Pete, and if it wasn't almost 4 am I would search the forums for more of your submissions. Thanks again, merc |
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Local Parasite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527Transylconia, Winnipeg |
quote: Like I said, I don't want to start anything, so if you find my response useless, then by all means, ignore me. I'm not about to get involved in personal attacks, though. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
I have to disagree with Parasite and go with Rob's advice. I think studying the styles of the masters is and excellent and probably essential part of learning. Attempting to write in those styles is an important part of that study. Poe was certainly one of the best and "The Raven" is so often used as an outline because 1) it is so outstandingly different from almost anything else, and 2) it is outstandingly outstanding. This is not plagiarism. It is study. Merc made no attempt to claim the form as his own. That would be ludicrous since it is already so well known. Instead, he claimed right up front that he was so taken by Poe's work that he became inspired to write his own, perhaps feeble, attempt at a poem copying Poe's form. That sounds more like a tribute to Poe than plagiarism. Rob is also right in that I am a Poe fan but wrong in saying I am the one to critique your poem. I am too much of a novice to be given that kind of credit. I will, however, get back to this later today. Right now I am trying to catch up on my mod duties since the forums have been down for a while. BTW Merc, Rob pointed you to the original version of my "Raven lookalike" in the Workshop. Balladeer pointed out some of the subtle errors I had made which I subsequently attempted to correct then reposted it. Here is the "finalized" or at least corrected version. If you have the time to compare the two, you will see the kind of suggestions I might have for your work. But I will get back later, after moderating and dealing with a bunch of "honey do" stuff. Pete BTW Merc, heated discussion is certainly allowed but the language still must be kept within polite bounds. Notice my edit above. I did leave your first questionable reference (questionable due to the context) but the second was unacceptable. [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (10-17-2003 02:44 PM).] |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
well.. I am way out of my league here. I know little to squat about form and meter and could not tell you Iambic from Iambe if she hadn't been such a cute thing, and worn thsoe overalls so nice.. anyway, I tend to agree that the study of and imitation of form or of "voice" is a good way to learn to develop your own, and have to disagree with Brian on several levels. I read the entire poem, and while it did not appeal to me in that it did not truly touch something in me. That has nothing to do with how it is written nor anything to do with your choice of subject matter. The fact it doesn't "speak' to me is a matte of personal bias and preference. I would encourage you to continue to read Poe and perhaps others that might interest you in the same way, and emulate what you read. I happen to think with each one you try you will begin to develop a piece by piece understanding of your own voice in writing. Bri.. I think you were a little harsh bud.. and maybe not meaning to be, just coming across that way. I can see how someone might take personally the things said and be offended. |
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merc Junior Member
since 2003-10-15
Posts 35 |
Cpat Hair, Thanks for taking the time to read and reply to this thread. I would be very interested to hear what poetic types or subjects do 'speak' to you and your impression of what the theme of this poem actually is. Simply as a test to wether or not I got my point across propery. I'd also like to justify my posts above, I do not mean to give anyone the impression that Harsh criticism is unwanted. I welcome and very much want blatant truthful criticism. I only request that everyone reads the poem beforehand. I also should maybe clarify what I consider 'criticism' to be. 'Your poem sucks' is not criticism. 'Your poem sucks because ... and this is what I think you should/can do to fix it' is criticism. One more thing, anyone who can actually explain to me what trochaic octameter is would be my new friend. Thanks again cpat, merc |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Trochaic octameter: Each line is made up of 8 feet, hence the octameter part. Each foot is made up of 2 syllables, the first of which is stressed and the second is not. That is the trochaic part. Then to scan the first line of your poem, "ONCE up/ON an/ EVE, dis/AS-ter!/ WHILE the/ DARK-ness/ RUSH-es/ FAST-er-" And there you have perfect trochaic octameter. Simple huh? Pete |
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merc Junior Member
since 2003-10-15
Posts 35 |
Octameter I get, still a little rough on trochaic though. Does trochaic refer to the placement of the stresses? What is the difference between Iambic and Trochaic and what other variations are there? I don't mean to be a pain, this may be a monumental question. Thanks for taking the time to respond though. Still anxiously awaiting your view on the specifics of the poem Not a Poet (if you have the time). merc |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: quote: I first read this post in the morning and was not able to reply because of time constraints, but I found, where Parasite’s opinion of this poem was honest, albeit harsh. Merc’s response to him was classless and in the above remark simply disgusting. Sid @ www.cynicsRus.com www.primerhymeetc.com [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (10-17-2003 09:59 PM).] |
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merc Junior Member
since 2003-10-15
Posts 35 |
Did you read his post? I want you to explain to me how he can have an honest opinion about a poem he didn't read. As for me being classless, well it's your right to opinion. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Ok, I said I'd be back and here I am. First Merc, I encourage you to read The Philosophy of Composition wherein Poe describes the development of "The Raven" in great detail. As a fan, I think you will find his train of thought fascinating. Now for you poem. I think I said before that you have done a very good job here. If you want it to copy the form exactly though, there are some adjustments to be made. Some are probably more imortant than others. Some may even verge on nit-picking. But, you did say "exact." quote: Disaster should not be capitalized following a comma nor should while. Why use the dated tressel instead of trestle since you otherwise use modern language. It also should not be capitalized. Then shivered/delivered is a good rhyme but hither falls short. quote: The first line should be two questions, punctuated by question marks, not a comma and period. I really like cursing/rehearsing/pursing. You change tense in L4. It should be , lips were numbing. But worse, there is an extra syllable. "Pursing; a carriage" blows the meter and is a really big stumbling block. The a has to go which makes carriage no longer fit (it should not have been capitalized either). I'm afraid you'll have to find another word for carriage. quote: In L1, you dropped the final unstressed syllable and rhymed bow with now. A good rhyme but Poe's first lines were strictly torchaic. Ok, I did it too and seemed to get by with it. Those are the remaining flaws in my attempt, at least the ones I am so far aware of. Although not strictly correct, I think you can get by with that. That semicolon should be a comma. In L2, swishing seems just a little, well, swishy for a rather dark poem, IMO. I really don't like 'course beginning L4. It fits and says what you mean but it also does not seem appropriate for this poem. I would prefer something like "sure, it could be..." and again, the semicolon is wrong. A dash would balance the one in the preceeding line. Finally, I wonder whether man is a strong enough word in the last line. Maybe something more sinister would help reinforce the mood. quote: Instead on the shortened even', I think evening would look much better. If you just can't accept that as 2 syllables (Poe could, BTW) then you could use ev'ning. "Offer him LIKE gold ..." Yikes, that won't do at all. No teen jargon allowed in anything that even mentions E.A Poe, please! At least change it to my. Again, you have dropped the final unstressed syllable but still it's not too bad. L3 is also missing the final unstressed syllable but I think that is not as noticeable as when on the first line. L4 is missing a syllable after knell. That must be fixed or the meter is cobbled and I wonder if you didn't intend a comma after the following and. quote: Well, no real nits here. You may have coined a new word but Poe did that regularly. If anything, I did find the second half of L3 to be a little off in that I felt the need to stress some syllables that I would not naturally. I don't think it deserves more attention though. quote:Oh my, we absolutely cannot have an iambic line, particularly not the first line. That I has to go and that will require some work with fear. The dash ending L3 looks out of place since you used a semicolon in the middle and sinilar punctuation is required in both places; the clauses all have equal stature as well as structure. Beginning L4, I think "You have" would be a much more appropriate wording than "You've got." I love Meg Ryan but that just smacks too much of "You've Got Mail." Finally, the semicolon in L5 should be a comma. quote: I don't think you need the first comma in L1 and the ending dash really should be a comma. L3 again is missing the last unstressed syllable but, again, not too bad. L4 however, is another iambic. You can't start a trochaic line with perhaps because it is always stressed on the second syllable. Find another word to substitute. Then A in the middle of the line shoud not be capitalized. In L5, "waiting for time to relate" cannot be read as trochaic. Just try to read it thus, WAIT-ing/FOR time/TO re/Late and I think you will see what I mean. Finally, the last line is also iambic. Drop the and at the beginning, not strictly grammatically correct but more than acceptable poetically. quote: The Exclamation point after cease is incorrect and it causes too much of a pause anyway. I would just drop it completely because if you put it where it belongs, it is too far down and loses its effect anyway. L3 again starts with an unstressed syllable and I don't like the misuse of wake in the line. How about something like, I am not one to be bested, stayed awake but poorly rested, The last half of L5 does not read to me as strongly trochaic. I have a hard time pronouncing it PLEASE let/THERE be instead of PLEASE LET/there BE. I don't know about this one. Technically it does work but I just found it awkward. Last, You have to drop that from the beginning of the last line. Ok, this looks like a bunch of fault-finding and maybe it is. But I have a strong feeling that you really wanted it to be as right as you are capable of doing. Some of the above comments are admittedly minor but they all bear directly on the outcome of making it as close as possible to the prototype form. As for the story you told, well I did find it quite well developed. As you intended, it was pretty dark. It also had a pretty good turn when it was finally revealed or at least hinted who the "man" might be. With a little work, I think you can make this into something you can be proud of. Thanks, Pete |
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merc Junior Member
since 2003-10-15
Posts 35 |
Wow, thank you so much. There are so many things I didn't notice, and a big problem I was finding in reading it was the loss of some unstressed syllables at the end of lines. I couldn't figure out what was wrong (just didn't understand meter well enough). I did notice the lines that begin with unstressed syllables (they were indented) and have been trying to rewrite those. One thing I really need you to clarify, the "like gold and myrrh" line. I'm only 22, so your teen remark strikes close enough, only I don't fully understand what's wrong with it. Please elaborate, I don't want to continue using slang or improper terms if it can be helped (which it of course can). "I've stayed wake..." didn't even don on me that wake was not the proper word. Well, I'm running to print this off, thank you so much for your time. merc |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Like, in the sense used here, is strictly slang. It has been so overused that it has become almost acceptable in spoken conversation, particularly by the younger generation. But it is never acceptable, in this context, in written language. Now, I change hats from critic to moderator again. quote: First off Sid, I can't argue whether Parasite's critique was honest or not. I can personally question it though since he admitted not reading the poem. I would find it dificult to deliver any kind of critique of any artistic endeavor if I had not spent the effort to review it. Second, had I been the recipient of his remarks, I probably would have been offended too. I have been in CA long enough to not respond in the manner Merc did but I surely would have had a rather pointed response. Finally, Merc, you will have to watch your language. At least here in CA we all try to treat everyone as responsible adults. But PIP is still a family site. Although not common, children are allowed and sometimes found here. Any language used must be appropriate for such an environment. You will notice that I have gone back again and edited another of your remarks as unacceptable. I just failed to do so earlier until I saw the quote in Sid's post above. I know you are a new member and I am sure you were just unaware of acceptable behavior at PIP. So all is excused but please do try to be more restrained from here on. Thanks for your cooperation. I think you will find a good home here at PIP and particularly in the CA forum. Pete |
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merc Junior Member
since 2003-10-15
Posts 35 |
Point taken, I'll try to curb my language from now on. Sorry to keep pushing the issue, but do you have any suggestions on how to rewrite that line? |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
That's not pushing the issue. If you refer to the "like" line, try something like this. "How are you this evening sir?" I offer him some gold and myrrh. I mean, myrrh is probably a little archaic or maybe overly poetic but, I still think it works all right with this style. My only real problem was like. Well, even' could be improved as I've shown above. If that isn't the line, which one do you mean? And don't be concerned about "pushing the issue." That's what we try to do here. Pete |
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merc Junior Member
since 2003-10-15
Posts 35 |
that is the line i was talking about. I can't wrap my head around it written that way. I wrote it with the intention of a simile almost (i haven't looked at the mechanics of a simile in years so maybe I was off) and the way you've revised it doesn't seem to relay that he isn't actually giving him anything at all. It's an offering similar to the magi's gifts of gold and myrrh to the baby jesus. I don't know, I guess I just don't get it. [This message has been edited by merc (10-17-2003 11:29 PM).] |
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