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To End War - A Sonnet
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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To End War - A Sonnet |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA 
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I'd like to say to Christians near and far I'd like to say to Jews and Muslims, too It’s time for all to seek an end to war. And recognize your different points of view. To Catholics and Protestants I say To all of those who murder in His name It’s time to wash the seeds of hate away. Your legacy is nothing more than shame. To Maoists, Hindus, Shintos and the Tao’s How many of the innocents must die? The time to stop hostilities is now. War is an act no man can justify. To all who claim theirs is a god of peace It’s time for this insanity to cease. |
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| © Copyright 2008 Michael Mack - All Rights Reserved | |||
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Balladeer, I envy your facility with forms. Perhaps: To Maoists, Hindus, followers of the Tao,. . . A hendecasyllabic line is a permissable variation, so long as it's pentameter, with examples going back as far as Wyatt. The usual term is "Daoist," with "follower of the Dao" used as well. The "D" is generally used these days in preference to the "T" because, I'm told, that it's closer to the way the word is actually spoken. Path, it means "path," but if you can talk about it you've gotten it wrong. The same way as with meditation; it's not what you think. Sure do envy your facility with forms. Best wishes, BobK |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
An excellent replacement line, Bob. It flows better, eliminates that pesky "s" that bothered me and improves the stanza overall. I will make the change and I thank you  |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
And I'm a little weird about punctuation here... I hear a pause in the first line, and in my mind, that is like a "beat". Which brings up my old argument (and Emily's) that punctuation can serve as a "beat"... the very first line throws me off (and normally Mike, your words read immaculately) "I'd like to say to Christians near and far" Now granted, no comma is necessary between 'Christians near and far', but my mind keeps putting one there. Maybe it's the transcriptionist training in me, but this goes on throughout--especially when you mark each stanza with a period. I don't know if there are rules about this--I mean, if you disregard punctuation, is that done altogether? It just gave a halting quality to the reading for me. Most unusual when I read you too, btw. The message I can't argue with though. I am in love with love.  |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Now granted, no comma is necessary between 'Christians near and far', but my mind keeps putting one there. Then I don't see a problem, serene one. If your mind puts the pause there where it should be, the comma wasn't really necessary. Yes, punctuation can serve as a beat, but, since you got the beat without it, no problema  -I mean, if you disregard punctuation, is that done altogether? I don't see where I have intentionally disregarded punctuation. The periods are there, the commas between the religion names are there, the question mark is there....the only other place where a comma could be placed would be after protestants in L1, S2. I've never had any desire to be e e cummings  |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I guess it's just the transcriptionist in me. There's a multitude of possibilities of punctuation in this piece, and this being a message poem, I would focus on that since it reads like correspondence. Stanza two? I'm gonna have to rest my case on this on the first line, since "I say" seems superfluous, considering you continue with the direction of "To" on the following line. And damn it's hot in here. I'm really uncomfortable giving critique to my mentor. I really am.  Other than punctuation though, I wouldn't sneeze at this too hard. I just think it's just that I am such a fan of yours that this one is just a little too simplified. I prefer your more subtle narratives and artful metaphors. I'm gonna go find a rock to hide under. |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Fine poem Balladeer. Let’s ring the bells of peace. I have learn a great deal from you , but I keep wanting the god in the couplet to be capitalized. If the ” theirs “ in the couplet is singular then shouldn’t “god” be capitalized ? If it wasn’t for the first line in the third stanza, to me their would be no question that god should be capitalized. I got a late start in English and I am just trying to learn. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
?rhyme between far and war? |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
chopsticks, "theirs" is plural..."for ALL who claim THEIRS.." therefore "god" refers to any number of possibilities. If we were referring to the Christian God, then it would indeed be capitalized. Tom, you think war and far don't rhyme? Serenity, forget that rock. Your comments are always wecome music to my ears  |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
no, far and war do not rhyme with each other, sir. And I think that it makes a very good campaign slogan. |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Thanks Ballandeer, “ If we were referring to the Christian God, then it would indeed be capitalized. “ That would also be true if you were referring to the Jewish or muslins god ,same person. Tom, far and war rhyme, check your rhyming dictionary. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
It does not rhyme in my ears and it does not show in rhymezone. I don't have a rhyme dictionary. seriously, do they really rhyme? |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Check it out. http://www.rhymer.com/RhymingDictionary/far.html |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
*laughing* I promise you. It's a NEAT RHYME. sheesh.  to Mike. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
It is computer generated list. It lists out all words end with *ar. War..[wor] Far..[fa:r] war pronounced as [war] only happened in Scot. and North England. and it means worse. I believe that sir Balladeer was born in US.  |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Y'don't wanna get into colloquialisms in the U.S. I promise you. It's a neat rhyme. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Listen to serenity, Tom. You don't want to be teaching us English, I assure you |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
THAT is how you wrote your poem!!!!!!!!!  with self-made pronunciation.  [This message has been edited by TomMark (01-10-2008 12:19 AM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Psst, TM, These people come from far away lands, they speak in strange tongues. I don't get it either. You have to be careful with anybody east of that last bastion of civilization: Las Vegas. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Sorry Mike, et al. I agree with TomMark here. Far does not rhyme with war. For, drawer, roar and snore do but they don't fit your poem all that well. It's much akin to rhyming pain and again. Yes we see that all the time but it just doesn't sound right, does it? Oh sure, you can get by with it sometimes because they look the same and their endings are spelled the same but I'd bet a weeks paycheck that they don't even sound the same to you. At this point i do feel compelled to confess that I am not employed and haven't been for a few years. Somehow though I do have this gut feel that a sonnet maybe should be a little more carefully constructed. Whatever that "Rhymer" mentioned above was, I would scrap it a use "The Rhyme Zone" instead. It does not give misleading results based purely on spelling. BTW, I forgot to say that I do like what you have here, even with that slightly off rhyme. I can't honestly say that I would change it either as that could mess the whole idea up. I just wanted to back TomMark on a correctly pointed out discrepancy. There are, of course, many times that such discrepancies are quite acceptable. Pete |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
In N'awlins? It's still a neat rhyme. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
One has to follow the rules then call it A SONNET I am just jealous.  |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
This has been very informative , but will it turn into Newton’s third law of motion : III. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I hope so, I’ll learn more that way. Btw, while we are clearing the air, I’m still not convinced on the god thing. This is how I see the god thing: To all( every religion or individual component) who claim theirs( that which belongs to them) is a God of peace. To capitalize or not to capitalize , here is what I know : Christian, Jewish , Muslin and Sikh have a god and they capitalize it. Maoism has no god. Hindu is a way of life and nothing more no god. Taos has a high priest “Kiva” and the priest name is capitalized. I didn’t spend as much time on the god thingy as was spent on whether to use a comma or not , but I do what I can. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Thank you, Not A Poet. I had considered changing it to how we say it down here.. I'd like to say to Christians here and thar.. but Emily Dickinson called me and assured me it was fine. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
chopsticks, if someone of a specific religion writes of their god, they would capitalize it. Gods in general, however, are not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Gods_by_culture There you can see all of the categories of gods listed on Wikipedia. They do not capitalize the word god in any of them. |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Balladeer, you were writing about seven different concepts five of them worship a god . The way I just used god it did not need to be capitalized.. Here is the way the rule goes : If you are referring to a specific god -concept , as you were when you used the pronoun theirs meaning in that case ( that which belongs to them ) you should have capitalized god. Did you notice that I did not capitalize god in this reply. There was absolutely no reason to capitalize god in any of my sentences. If we were talking about a comma, I would have submitted passively by now. “To all who claim theirs is a god of peace” Ballandeer I just had an epiphany. I am one of the all in the above , so it would be appropriate for you to capitalize my God. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
LOL! No, if YOU wrote it then it would be appropriate for you to capitalize it. Take two aspirin for that epiphany, and get plenty of rest |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Mike: I don't have a problem with the near-rhyme, I think you've probably nailed the technical aspects of writing a sonnet, but I just don't understand why you picked this form for this topic? In fourteen lines, you scarcely have room to set up your polemic, let alone present it in full. Because of this, one question can unravel the entire point you're trying to make (e.g., Aren't wars today fought over land and oil?). If you wish to stick to a sonnet form, I'd strongly recommend that you break your argument down into sub-parts and group several sonnets together. Jim |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
alas, the gods of war and poetry are insatiable in their appetites for blood and rhyme. so the nature of your rhyme is fitting |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Ballander, here’s my last try at conversion : You can say that Christian are supposed to follow what THEIR god wants them to do, or you can say that Christian are supposed to follow what THEIR God wants them to do. Either works, but you should capitalize God in the latter sentence because you are using it as a proper name, just as if you were talking about Apollo, Mercury, or Odin. I do believe you used “THEIR” in your couplet. Like I said if this had been about a comma, I would have .... |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Hello Balladeer and Friends, Ouch! "Far" and "war" were at one point pronounced the same way, and may still be not only in Scotland and in Northern England but in selected sectors of English society and in areas of the United States. English is sensitive to regional variation, yes, but also to class variation. "Creek" can be pronounced to rhyme with "beak" but it is also pronounced in selected areas of the US as a rhyme with "stick." It certainly was in the area of Ohio where I grew up, but ONLY among working class folks. In parts of western New York, you"ll hear the "crick" variation in members of the middle class, but only those born before 1950 or so. The whose thing is more complex than you're trying to make it, and the authorities you're turning to don't allow for these variations. "Were" and "here" or "Here" and "there" are traditionally allowed as rhymes as well. Simply because two words don't sound like they rhyme now to your ear doesn't mean that that is the case universally to all other English speakers, even today. Even proper names show this variation, as in the Island country of Jamaica. Most commonly in the United States, Jamaica is pronounced Ja MAY ka, while the way it's pronounced by the islanders is Ja MAY a ka, four syllables instead of three. "War" and "far" are generally accepted as rhymes, and not simply as part of a computer generated list of words ending with "ar." Not all English pronounciation came from London. A fair number of folk who came over to the US on the Mayflower were from places where the vowel use was broader. It wasn't clear to me if the urge for punctuation in the middle of the first line was within the phrase "to Christians near and far" or between "I'd like to say" and "to Christians near and far." The texts seem to read pretty much "between 'Christians near and far;'" and for actual understanding I'd have to know between "Christians near and far" and what other thing? If however it's between "I'd like to say" and "to Christians near and far," I suspect your urge to drop in a piece of punctuation is because you hear the medial cesura, metrically generally noted this way //. It's especially emphasized here because, at least in part, the order of the idiom 'far and near" has been inverted to force the rhyme we've just been talking about; and it makes the line a just a bit too heavy handed at the end. One of the tricks in revision that helpful on occasion is to notice where the discussion is stuck, in this case on the issue of the rhyme "far" and "War," and then to look a bit beforehand for the actual problem. If that can be solved, sometimes the later issue doesn't seem to be such an issue any more. If you're as wacky as I am and you tend to rework poems for a long time before you show them to anybody, the equivalent is to notice where you've focused the majority of your revision efforts. Often it means you know you need to take that piece out and look at the rest to see what you have and how those pieces fit together once you've taken out the piece you know simply doesn't work. Balladeer is pretty good darn good at forms and I suspect probably doesn't need to mess with this one. It seems to say what he wants and do what he wants and he's pleased with what he's got, quite rightfully so. But the poem is giving him these little messages in case he wants to do more with it. It has its own ambitions for itself, you see, as poems almost always do. There's a wonderful poem by Larry Levis, I think it's the first poem in his first book, in which the poet takes care of a poor little lost poem and in the end the poem beats him up, steals his clothes and his money and starts to head over to move in on the reader. Poems can do that sometimes. Best to everybody, BobK. |
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Balladeer
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Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
"Aren't wars today fought over land and oil?" Beats me, Jim. Did Osama knock down the wtc because he wanted our land and oil? Has England fought the Irish over their land or oil? Is the genocide in African countries over land and oil? Wars are fought for a variety of reasons. No, I didn't make any conclusive point in 14 lines. I wasn't really trying to. I don't see where sonnets should ever be used to present or confirm specific points fully. They are simply too short. I was simply expressing an opinion, in which case a sonnet is as acceptable as any other form. It was short, precise and to the point, I think. No one should have been confused about the author's feelings while writing it. The far and war point astounds me. Yes, I know speech is regional and I grew up fishing in cricks, too, and had a knockdown dragout with Nan over if "field" contains one syllable or two. I must say, however, that I have lived in the north (Delaware), the south (Texas and Florida), grew up in the midwest(Missouri) and nowhere I have lived does far and war not rhyme. Even for those of you who do not see a rhyme there, the near-rhyme should be so close it is a non-point. Just my opinion.... Chopsitcks...in this case I think we will just have to agree to disagree Bob, I'm going to have to look up that poem by Larry Levis...sounds like a masterful idea for a poem Actually, Bob, the fact is that I almost never rework a poem. What you see is what came out the first time. I would be a better poet if I did, I know. Posting in CA is good - good to get feedback from others. If the rhyming sound between war and far is the biggest objection then I must be doing something right. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
btw,for those to do no believe that far and war rhymes, can you tell me which of the two rhymes with star? Perhaps that will allow me to see where you are coming from... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Far/Star War! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing! |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Dear Sir Balladeer, far rhymes with star. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
LOl! I'm reminded of the North Carolinian who claimed that the three wise men should be shown wearing firehats because the Bible clearly states that "The three men came from afar..." |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Now that explains a lot. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Mike: I don't dispute that the sonnet presents an opinion. The form, however, renders it a very weakly expressed opinion thats seems almost inflammatory at times (e.g., do you expect any reader to believe Catholics' and Protestants' "legacy is nothing more than shame"). quote: Actually, yes. Islamofascism is imperialistic. The tension in Northern Ireland has its roots in English colonization of Ulster and the rest of Ireland (Cromwellian Settlement). African genocides are also about who controls the land. Religion? That's just the pretense. Your poem might be more effective if you either freed it from the sonnet's constraints or focused on one conflict. As it is written, it simply doesn't do it for me. Jim |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
enjoyed the Sonnet. [This message has been edited by TomMark (01-12-2008 01:27 AM).] |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Jim, Osama knocked down the wtc because (1) we are non-believing infidels that must be destroyed and (2) our association with Israel, both religious factors. England's conflict with Ireland began because Ireland would not switch over to England's religion....Catholics against Protestants...another religious factor. (Trinity by Leon Uris would be good reading) I'm sorry it doesn't work for you but no writing works for everyone. I appreciate your candor. |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
"Our association with Israel, both religious factors “ I’m sorry Ballandeer, it is mostly over land. It’s called “ the Gaza strip and the west bank” They know that we help Israel keep that land. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Mike: One other thing I don't think anyone has mentioned is the thematic turn that appears to be absent in your L9 and following, and which is customarily part of the sonnet form. In the poems below, I've tried to introduce thematic turns. Consider this as an example of an expanded, sonnet-like poem: All Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Hindus too – It’s time to stop pretenders near and far Declaring that it must be Me or You. Together We can end this senseless war. To Sinn Fein Catholics and the IRA, To all who maim and murder in God’s name, It’s time to wash the seeds of hate away. For, in forgiveness, you will find no shame. “Holy” Crusader and the Jihadi, I pray the time of truth is close at hand. The light reveals your sins for all to see – Your guilty blood defiles the Holy Land. Pakistan and India hear our plea: Decolonize your minds of senseless hate. Cut the concertina wire before we see Your countless millions share a fiery fate. Our faiths may never find accord, but how Can true believers let their children die For causes piety should not allow? Such war no man can rightly justify. It’s time for this insanity to cease – All glory to the mighty God of Peace. And this as a narrowed poem: To Christians, Muslims, and the pious Jew – It’s time to stop pretenders near and far Declaring that it must be Me or You. Together We can end this senseless war. “Holy” Crusader and the Jihadi, I pray the time of truth is close at hand. The light reveals your sins for all to see – Your guilty blood defiles the Holy Land. Our faiths may never find accord, but how Can true believers let their children die For causes piety should not allow? Such war no man can rightly justify. It’s time for this insanity to cease – All glory to the mighty God of Peace. Hope this is helpful in illustrating what I've written previously. Jim |
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Balladeer
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Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Hi, Jim.. I appreciate the effort you have put into this and thank you. I'm afraid your first revision doen't work for me.. All Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Hindus too – It’s time to stop pretenders near and far why the word pretenders? Declaring that it must be Me or You. if this is supposed tobe a quote of theirs then quotes would make that plainer...declaring that "It must be me or you". Together We can end this senseless war. Which war? I speak of war in general To Sinn Fein Catholics and the IRA, To all who maim and murder in God’s name, It’s time to wash the seeds of hate away. For, in forgiveness, you will find no shame. they should be forgiving...who? “Holy” Crusader and the Jihadi, bad rhythm with holy crusader I pray the time of truth is close at hand. The light reveals your sins for all to see – Your guilty blood defiles the Holy Land. Pakistan and India hear our plea: Decolonize your minds of senseless hate. These countries have minds of senseless hate? Targeting countries is off the mark Cut the concertina wire before we see Your countless millions share a fiery fate. concertina wire? These lines don't make it for me. Feiry fate is too cliche Our faiths may never find accord, but how Can true believers let their children die For causes piety should not allow? Such war no man can rightly justify. It’s time for this insanity to cease – All glory to the mighty God of Peace. I'm afraid this poem is way too cluttered for me And this as a narrowed poem: To Christians, Muslims, and the pious Jew – why the word pious, unless you are just using it for a proper syllable count? It doesn't earn it's keep. It’s time to stop pretenders near and far Declaring that it must be Me or You. Together We can end this senseless war. “Holy” Crusader and the Jihadi, I pray the time of truth is close at hand. The light reveals your sins for all to see – Your guilty blood defiles the Holy Land. Our faiths may never find accord, but how Can true believers let their children die For causes piety should not allow? Such war no man can rightly justify. It’s time for this insanity to cease – All glory to the mighty God of Peace. Once again,I appreciate your effort but i prefer to let it stand. I've had many people read, respond and listen to this poem and the reaction has been extremely favorable.I would consider minor changes to satisfy a minority but not major revisions. I do find your comment on thematic turns interesting, though. I wasn't aware that it was common practice in sonnets but it makes sense and I'm going to study it further. I thank you |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I think its ok though I can’t make my mind up whether I like the repeated start to the first two lines, it is more of a ni than a nit though but it wouldn’t take much to change it if you cared to, something like this for instance. I'd like to say to Christians near and far And mention to the Jews and Muslims, too It’s time for all to seek an end to war. And recognize each other’s point of view. Ok so I edited line 4 while I was there, the “your” looked like finger pointing to me and I think you were going for an encompassing wave. Again not a big deal but I thought I’d mention it while I was there. The turn in the final couplet could be fixed if you made the last line a question. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Thanks, Grinch. I made the first two lines repetitive to put all religions on equal footing. I'm not sure that "saying" to some and "mentioning" to others would do that but I'm gonna mull that one over. The change has merit. 'Each other's point of view" or "different points of view" would both work well and be better than "your". Consider it done fixing the turn in the couplet? Not sure I understand that.. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
smile... Write a poem To End War, and you shall start another? *laughing tho* I'm actually very happy to see this much good, constructive discussion going on in here. It's ...nice. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Mike, In an English sonnet you can place the thematic ‘turn’ (or Volta) that Jim was talking about in the third quatrain or the final couplet (or leave it out altogether). If you’ve a mind to put one in you simply need to change the final line to a question, in doing so you create the turn from suggesting and saying what you think should happen in the first 3 quatrains to asking if your suggestions are reasonable in the couplet. Or you could just leave it as it is. |
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Balladeer
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Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Aha...I wasn't aware that the turn could be placed before the couplet. I thought perhaps it was to be placed after the second stanza, whereas the third stanza turned and the couplet was a compilation of the message of the poem in general. Thanks for the info... |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Mike, My memory isn’t what it was but here’s my understanding of the form. The Italian (Petrarchan) sonnet is composed of two parts the octave and the sextet it has the turn at the start of the sextet (L9). The English (Shakespearean) sonnet has four parts, three quatrains and a final couplet the turn can be on the third quatrain or the final couplet (or sometimes omitted completely). Shakespeare often used the final couplet as an epigrammatic close which contained the turn. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
This might be useful: http://www.sonnets.org/basicforms.htm The web is great for those like me Who being old lack memory. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Mike: My point was to take 15 minutes to illustrate how I think the poem can work better. I thought "pretenders" clears up the "guilt by association" problem in your offering. I still think you've tried to cram too much into the sonnet form and it will be much improved by either expanding the poem or narrowing the sonnet's focus. In my opinion, it still needs a good bit of work. Jim |
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Balladeer
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Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Your opinion is always welcome, Jim. |
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Mysteria 
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Tori is saying, "No kidding!" A message I wish everyone would listen to and keep the troops home. |
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