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Critical Analysis #2
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Baked (My first foray here..)
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Baked (My first foray here..) |
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Allysa 
since 1999-11-09
Posts 1952In an upside-down garden 
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[In truth, you all terrify me just a little bit, but I am excited about learning how to better organize and gather my thoughts within each piece, so here it goes. Also, I am writing this "on the spot," per say.] In a low voice, he spoke As I pulled the cookies from the oven Slightly crisped, but not, burnt That is to say, still edible, On a warm pan held In hands without oven mitts, He watched in amazement And called me "baby"- "No one says nice things to me, The way that you do," I smile, Cupping the warm sugar in my hand, Holding it to his lips, collecting crumbs And pieces of sprinkles, A rainbow of feeling portrayed In calories, in sweets The spoils of this treat. At two AM, I bake and wait Alone in my small kitchen Knowing that somewhere, He is waiting too, and staring At a pot of boiling water, at The twisted coils of the stove, Trying to make his way closer To the calluses, and cookies, in my hand. [I am open to any and all suggestions, but please, be kind, as I would like to join the family here.  ] |
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| © Copyright 2007 Allysa - All Rights Reserved | |||
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I'm probably not the best person to critique your stuff, because I'm already prejudiced regarding your work. I'm a huge fan, as you probably figured out by my stalking you all through Pip. If it's allowed though, I'd like to say "welcome"--I think you'll be a breath of fresh air here. (Just don't go changing too much.) I do have one teeny point to address--why is every line capitalized? I find that confusing even in formal poetry, but in free verse, it's even more distracting. (Capitalized letters draw my eye down, and there is a subconscious pause while my head looks for "Proper Nouns", or punctuation, or even an acrostic message at times.) But then, again, that could be an attribute peculiar to just me. (I have a lot of peculiar attributes.  )Great to see you here, lady! |
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Allysa
since 1999-11-09
Posts 1952In an upside-down garden |
Haha, hi lady. The capitalization: I write mostly on my laptop, typically in a word document, which automatically capitalizes the first letter of each line. That was the case with this piece. I wrote it in a word document, with the window to this forum open, and simply copy and pasted when I was finished. Thanks for welcoming me. This place looks like a fun little corner to explore. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
There are parts of this that are great. There are parts of this that are - I don't know, wishful. Drop the wishful stuff and keep baking. Some of us need more cookies. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
(Brad has posted while I was writing offline. I agree with him totally, and the use of the word "wishful" was entirely coincidental - sometimes I worry about me and Brad!). Well there is quite a lot to like here, most of all the simplicity and lack of affectation. You have some believable images showing a “homespun” tale. It could however be a lot stronger which isn’t surprising if you have, as you say, written this quickly. It does in fact read like a first draft: good bits intermingled with pointlessness. Let’s look at it in a bit more detail. The central metaphor: the cookie reflecting contemporaneously the narrator herself, her feelings, maybe his feelings too, holds together ok. It’s especially strong in relation to the speaker in S1, and it’s great to see a poet here not writing for S1: In a low voice, he spoke and despite the fact that I am over the hill with life’s roughness showing, he could see I am basically still sweet inside so he whispers nice endearments. Regrettably this sort of writing is all too common, and so Allysa, it is, as I say, refreshing to see you start out well with this poem. One thing that annoys in S1 is your punctuation. Commas abound, and you need to check L1 - L5 particularly. And “mitts” has surely got to be the end of the sentence. And what’s with the bold “burnt”? S2 opens with what appears at first, and second, sight to be a really banal bit of narrative. However taken in the context of the whole poem I grew to quite like it for that very ordinariness. But it’s at that point, and in the next two lines that I began to wonder what was going on. The intimacy of actually feeding a man like that should be reserved for a close and established loving relationship, or dreams! So when you jumped in S3 to a 2am assignation with a cookie in a kitchen I strongly suspected that the foregoing strophes had been wishful dreaming rather than reality. The reality being that here is a relationship which has progressed no further than cookie innuendo. I’m not sure I like the ambiguity though. This interpretation is not exclusive. The protagonists I suppose could in fact have met earlier in the day and gone through the feeding cookie and “baby” routine but without the relationship progressing further. This doesn’t work for me, because, as I said before, a woman who is feeding a man sugar is sure as hell in his bed as well. Which means that the wishful thinking scenario is correct. If this is so, then I think it needs to be made a little more obvious, not a lot more, just a tiny little bit more. Also there are a few weakness imo. The latter part of S2 seems to degenerate into vagueness. The cookie metaphor was doing ok until suddenly “rainbows”? Why rainbows? Is a cookie multi-coloured? If you are simply using “rainbow” to describe “feelings” - shame on you! Eradicate it and think of something more original. Anyway the whole introduction of the vague and waffly “feelings” spoils the strophe. In S3 I have similar reservations about this “waiting”. It seems like a cop-out to me. Maybe the “lovers to be” are waiting for one or the other to make the first move, maybe they are waiting for the cessation of shyness, or for the cookie to bake, or for the number ten bus from Clapham for all I care. Whatever; the vagueness is annoying and the multiple “ing” sounds get more and more irritating as the strophe progresses: knowing waiting staring boiling trying Try to avoid too many “ings” they usually make for ugly sounds. I did however like the closing two lines very much. One final point. You start the poem in the past tense. In fact the whole of S1 is in past tense. Why? Present tense would be so much more engaging and would also avoid the uncomfortable feeling that I get when you suddenly switch tenses with “I smile” in S2. I know I’ve pointed out a few things I don’t like here, but please don’t go away with the idea that I don’t like what you’ve written, I do. Just keep working on the imagery and consistent metaphor and avoid vagueness. Good work. M |
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Allysa
since 1999-11-09
Posts 1952In an upside-down garden |
Revision: In a low voice, he speaks as I pull the cookies from the oven slightly crisped but not burnt, That is to say, still edible on a warm pan held in hands without oven mitts. He watches in amazement and calls me "baby"- "No one says nice things to me, The way that you do," I smile, cupping the warm sugar in my hand to hold it to his lips, I collect the crumbs and bits of sprinkles, a treat leftover for my tongue- Something to lap up and savor, a slice of him preserved. At two AM, I bake and wait Alone in this small kitchen- and I know that somewhere He is waiting too, staring As the pot of water boils, and The twisted coils of the stove burn, he tries to make his way closer To the calluses, and cookies, in my hand. I close my mouth around the dough and smile, again, at the feeling of sugar and sweetness, this sin is almost skin and pacing across the tiled floor, I slowly lick each finger, thinking that the taste of him could be enough to fill me. Regarding S1, I'm not sure what to do around L3-L5 regarding structure/punctuation/capitalization. I like S2 a bit more now, I agree, the rainbow bit was a cop out. I didn't touch S3 much, and I added S4 in the same "not thought out" way that I wrote this whole poem. Also: In a low voice, you speak as I pull the cookies from the oven slightly crisped but not burnt, that is to say, still edible on a warm pan held in hands without oven mitts. You watch in amazement and call me "baby"- "No one says nice things to me, the way that you do," I smile, cupping the warm sugar in my hand to hold it to your lips, I collect the crumbs and bits of sprinkles, a treat leftover for my tongue- something to lap up and savor, a slice of you preserved. At two AM I bake and wait alone in this small kitchen- and I know that somewhere You are waiting too, staring as the pot of water boils, and the twisted coils of the stove burn, you try to make your way closer to the calluses, and cookies, in my hand. I close my lips around the dough and smile, again, at the feeling of sugar and sweetness, the sin that's almost skin, and pacing across the tiled floor I slowly lick each finger, thinking that the taste of you could be enough to fill me. How does the overall tone/feeling change if I use "you" instead of "him"? Is it noticeable? Is it better? Worse? Anything? It's more like addressing a person instead of commenting on the situation/them, and does that add or take anything away from this piece? I actually had a ton of fun revising this poem and reading the comments from both Brad and Moonbeam, so I'm interested to see what you all have to say to what I've changed. I'd like to keep working on it. Thanks a bunch, Allysa |
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Allysa
since 1999-11-09
Posts 1952In an upside-down garden |
Also, my rainbow cop out was more referring to sprinkles than to feelings, but that is beside the point, because no matter what it was about, it was a cop out.  |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I don't know what he's talking about. The past tense works better. The Strong bits: quote: quote: The centerpiece: quote: So, essentially, you want to juxtapose two scenes, one together with cookies, the other separate. What about just doing it? This is not a rewrite, I'm just trying to make the idea clearer: -------------- In a low voice, he spoke As I pulled the cookies from the oven On a warm pan held In hands without oven mitts. He watched in amazement And called me "baby"- "No one says nice things to me, The way that you do," I smile, At two AM, I bake and wait. He waits too and stares At a pot of boiling water And the twisted coils of the stove. -------- This may drop a lot of what you want to portray, but I'm a big fan of that kind of stark comparison. Oh, please, don't use the direct address. It's almost never a good thing in relationship poems. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Rethinking here. It just popped in my head that my favorite poem regarding food and relationships is by W. C. Williams (You know, the plum one?). That or something like that is what I think you should do here. If that's not to your taste (I know some people are absolutely repulsed by the sheer simplicity of it), then you should probably disregard my comments. And try something else! |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Allysa I don't know what he's talking about. The present tense and the consistency work better. It was improving. Can't stop now, life calls, but this is a good example of starkly differing opinions. Which is great because in the end you know no-one is "right". And if they were, where would we be? Not here that's for sure. M |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I agree with Brad about the past tense. Present tense makes it sound habitual, as if it happens everyday. But Past tense gives a bit more limitation to a specific and unique moment that was in the past. It depends on what kind of mood or moment you are trying to express. In past tense and past participle the word bake originally had forms that in modern spellings would be book and baken. It was a "strong" verb and behaved as the word shake, shook, shaken and forsake, forsook, forsaken. There would be nothing wrong with reviving the strong forms if you wrote in past tense. And a poet could probably find interesting wordplays using book and baken instead too [This message has been edited by Essorant (09-15-2007 09:27 PM).] |
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Allysa
since 1999-11-09
Posts 1952In an upside-down garden |
[I had a lot written here, then accidentally hit the "back" button, which lost it all. Alas, I'll be writing in text documents again..] Minorly revised: In a low voice, he spoke as I pulled the cookies from the oven slightly crisped but not burnt, That is to say, still edible on a warm pan held in hands without oven mitts. He watched in amazement and called me "baby"- "No one says nice things to me, The way that you do," I smiled- cupping the warm sugar in my hand and holding it to his lips, I collect the crumbs and bits of sprinkles, a treat leftover for my tongue- Something to lap up and savor, a slice of him preserved. At two AM, I bake and wait Alone in this small kitchen- and I know that somewhere he‘ll be waiting too, staring- As the pot of water boils and The twisted coils of the stove burn, he will try to make his way closer To the calluses, and cookies, in my hand. I close my mouth around the dough and smile, again, at this feeling of sugar and sweetness, this sin that’s almost skin and, pacing across the tiled floor, I slowly lick each finger, thinking that just a taste of him could be enough to fill me. Brad- I spent a good portion of the afternoon reading W.C. Williams' piece about plums, as well as a few of his other pieces. All that I came up with was something I posted in the Open forum, and the realization that I am stuck on having 8 lines in each stanza for this piece, although it was not something I did intentionally. Thanks for your comments, they've given me a bit to think about, and reading Williams has made me want to write every day again. Ess & M- Obviously, I am abandoning the direct address. It wasn't something I was considering too seriously, but after I wrote the first draft of this, I was trying to think about what the meaning was and what I was trying to portray, so I meddled with the addressment for a little bit. I switched S1 back to past tense currently, as I liked Ess' comment, and it reads better to me that way. I switched the tense in S2 slightly, and I think that, overall, it works with the rest of the poem, although I could be mistaken. (Let me know if I've completely lost it, that happens occasionally..) I've grown tired with my usual way of writing, that is, just scribbling something down and not thinking about it, then posting it and collecting praise. I want to work on each piece, tweak and tweak and tweak until I feel like it both portrays whatever I was thinking and reads well enough. Thus, I am falling in love with this forum. So thanks to all of you who have commented so far, I am seriously enjoying this. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: That's not "writing", that's "showcasing" Depends whether you want to create a work of art or make friends. You can do both of course! I don't like "smiled" at all. Even if S1 is fine in the past tense, the first 5 lines of S2 are far better in present. I see what Ess is saying about mood and moment and he's right of course, it does depend on what you are trying to do overall which is why I was trying to explore whether S1 was a memory recalled, an actual occurring event or a day dream. If it's an actual happening event the effect of starting off in past tense is to shift the present moment further down the poem to where you switch back to present tense. So instead of unfolding from the beginning the moment by moment action starts later. Obviously this is a barely noticeable, perhaps even pedantic, distinction, but nevertheless I like immediacy (perhaps I'm a victim of today's pop culture), and if there's no good reason not to have it then I'd go for it. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the past tense per se! If your S1 had clearly been a recollection I'd not even have noticed it, it was simply the abrupt shift to present tense in S2 that got me thinking. Anyway it really isn't a big deal and in the end it's totally your call. One little thing in S1: to avoid any possibility at all of the "he did this, he did that" syndrome, as well imo as making it read a bit better perhaps, you might like to consider, "In amazement he watched/and called me "baby" - This has the effect of accentuating the reaction by placing the amazement to the fore. It does duplicate the "in" at the beginning of consecutive lines, but this could be avoided by using "by hands". Anyway, just a thought. Out of time for the rest of it now. Maybe later. Now you are interested in CA don't forget to contribute by doing some crits. People will appreciate your input greatly. Have you read Sharon Olds? M |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Alyssa -- "Baked" certainly isn't "half-baked" and it seems to be cooking along just fine! I hope you post and crit some more. I have a general question, which does not particularly address your poem, which was very decent from the start: Why do you think right now, as many others do, that CA is a place to proffer first drafts or poems written on the fly? Oh heck! Everything and everyone is invited, and no one here has yet to win a Bollinger, so it's just people talking, except for Moonbeam, who loves to do (extraordinarily valuable!) mini-theses on four liners. How, or can, in your opinion, other PiP posters be invited in to these discussions? Brad has asked the same question in other threads. No good answers yet. Since this was your first go in CA, did you feel mistreated, ignored, misunderstood, subjected to thumbscrews or tied to a rack? Yes, there are certain expectations, though hardly givens, here, that poets offer up a decent shot, but CA is a WORKSHOP! Ya takes what ya gets, agrees or disagrees with comments, and moves on. What is intimidating about this? How can CA overcome intimidation? Thoughts? Best, Jim |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Hi Allysa, I like the romantic element. But I think the last stanza you added detracted from that. Reference to "sin" and overt sensuality robs the poem of romance and charm. That's my opinion. Stephen |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Okay, maybe it is a kind of workshop. I guess I've resisted the tide long enough. But I always thought that it could be different from a workshop in at least two ways: 1. There are no teachers. What this means is that all advice is given in the veil of equality. You take it or leave it as you decide. In a semi-anonymous forum like this one, I don't see how or why you should take anybody's advice as the word of God. To be honest, I find it a bit disturbing when people do take, say, my advice more seriously than they should. I read a poem, read it again, sleep on it, and throw out whatever pops in my head, usually, the next day. And, for all I know, I'm going to change my mind the next day. This is not a good way to teach, but it is fine if you see it as the beginning of a conversation. 2. And that's the second part. I'm usually drinking coffee when posting and so I tend to see the tit for tats as more along the lines of a coffee shop (or outdoor cafe, beret in hand, cigarettes going if that's your thing) about poetry. Like a good movie, I believe poetry should be talked about. |
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Allysa
since 1999-11-09
Posts 1952In an upside-down garden |
Intimidation.. intimidation.. I've been around these blue pages for a long while (since 1999), when I was about twelve or so, and I wrote "teenage girl poetry." It's all still there, if anyone wants a good laugh.. Usually, I sit down, I am troubled or deep in thought, and I churn out a few stanzas about something, save them to my computer, and come back to them later (this is what happened with For the Storm, a piece in Open for Hurricane Katrina). The more I've gone back and looked at my work, the more I've wanted to "fix" things in my poems. I get sidetracked, or I change paces, or I lose the initial idea.. whatever it be, I wanted to "fix" it. So, I've been reading the CA forums quietly for a long while.. watching you all respond to each other, and quarrel in your wonderful ways, and whatnot.. and I deduced that it would the perfect place to figure out how to "fix" my writing. I say fix because, well, it's not terribly broken, I can post pieces in Open/etc., and get responses of "great job," etc.. but I wanted to be happy with what I wrote. Personal satisfaction instead of just churning things out for acceptance, I suppose. Posting this initial piece was a big leap for me.. because here, people will critique, they will tell you what doesn't seem to fit, and what is hideously wrong with your poem, which is not something that most people can/want to handle. Also, I'm kinda shy. Most of the things I write are written on the fly.. I sit down, I write them. Sometimes, I post them here, and sometimes, I just let them sit. I think that most people here (outside of this forum) post things they are "finished" with and don't think twice about it.. which would be why they bring their drafts here. Any piece that seems to "fit" to them at the time that they wrote it would be seen as complete and wouldn't need any analysis, where as here, the general idea seems to be that anything can be tweaked, an idea that I enjoy, and that was what drew me here in the first place. As fas as getting others in here.. well.. we could offer them cookies? People will come when they need to come, or when someone they frequently read starts posting in here. I keep tabs on Serenity, so when she posted here I immediately came here to read what she was cooking, instead of just randomly scrolling through the other forums. Not everyone enjoys critiquing, clearly. Read any of the forums here, and outside of this forum, you may see some hissy-fits over a harsh critique. I'm not sure if people just don't care about improving their writing, if they just don't want to take the time to work out the kinks, or if they think that everything is perfect and they shouldn't change a word. Whatever the reason, it is fine, and they will come when they want to come. I am easily intimidated. I don't always know the "right" answer or the "right" interpretation, I don't frequently write in verse, although I read it and have learned it in school.. I supposed I never considered that I had much to contribute to the conversation. Now, I think that everyone has something to contribute, and that that is what makes this forum work well. People just have to realize that critiquing something doesn't mean you dislike it.. saying something doesn't work doesn't mean it won't work or won't get better.. They just have to want to, I suppose. Wow, I ramble. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Rambling is okay. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Alyssa and Brad: One practical reason to think of this forum as a "workshop" is that the submitted poems do not have the "Copyright" tag at the end of the submission, unless the poet puts it there. This doesn't mean that the works and not protected by copyright. In looking at magazine submission guidelines, I see outlets that will not consider net-published poems, EXCEPT for those which were published in a "workshop" situation. A sceond reason is that poets here take some of the comments to heart, revise, and post revisions. That suggests that CA can be about shaping work in progress. Personally, I revise everything, except my silly stuff, all the time, And usually because someone in CA has pointed out my frequent gaffes and inconsistencies. I don't repost all my revisions, but I definitely make them. Other times, I think a "critique" may have missed the mark altogether, and let it ride. Also a part of "workshopping" and revision. When I say "ya takes what ya get, and moves on," I just mean don't take anything personally. "Moving on may well lead to revision. The CA guidelines make clear that comments should be, and generally are about the poems, not the poet. There seems to be some discretion at work in the critiques. They tend to be less technical, or more technical, according to the critiquer's perception of the sophistication and possibilities of the piece at hand. My own hope, and I certainly don't speak for this forum's range of contributors, is that some discretion can reduce the intimidation factor. Who knows? Any first post here which might be, ah, not so hot, may lead to more postings with more depth when the poet isn't scared away. The CA forum is definitely not like Open or some of the other forums, which Moonbeam rightly points out are Showcase vehicles. It is a PiP forum, however, and still about the encouragement of community. And because of CA's communal aspects, one starts to learn who can take a critiquer's best shots, laugh, groan, learn, and thrive. Hope you hang out a bit more, Alyssa, and add your input, both poems and critiques. Best, Ramblin' Jim Aitken |
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