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JenniferMaxwell
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0 posted 2007-07-13 08:11 PM


I have slipped into the quiet spaces
between your dreams and your bruised heart,
watched the darkness there transforming

into mornings that shimmer in soft pastels.
I have seen on the icy steppes of your sleep
where colors once lost all meaning,

meadows of wild flowers in tender blossom
fragile as your reveries. I have heard
in the steady cadence of your gentle heart

the strains of wonder and longing. Oh, sweet,
sweet music let not the beauty be in the leaving.


© Copyright 2007 JenniferMaxwell - All Rights Reserved
beautyincalvary
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1 posted 2007-07-14 02:07 AM


Excellent imagery. The words just seem to flow.
cynicsRus
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2 posted 2007-07-19 01:41 PM


This, potentially, could be a pretty good study in metric structure. If you would attempt to craft all the stanzas like the first, with two lines Anapestic and the third Trochaic, it may help--if you could keep it from appearing forced as well. Having a more consistent metric pattern your poem would appear more methodically crafted. You'd have to smooth a few areas though. Two example:
L2, With a simple inversion of 'bruised heart'.
L6, Begin the line with 'Colors', such as; ...colors having lost all meaning.
These are only two examples for the possibility I see for your poem. I'll leave it to you to figure out the rest, since the best I can offer are those using my words. And given that you seem to have a pretty good sense of metric structure, I'm sure you can approach it from your perspective, using your own words.
Regarding imagery: Some of the metaphors could use a bit of tweaking as well--especially, '…gentle heart…' and '…sweet, sweet…' which have obviously been pulled out of ragged hat.

Sid

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JenniferMaxwell
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3 posted 2007-07-20 09:39 PM


Thanks beauty and Sid. In the grand scheme of things this little poem has no real value, but it is important to me, so thank you Sid for your suggestions on how I might improve it. I’ll be working on it over the coming week and will post revisions.

Meter - I was thinking today there are a few of us who post fairly regularly in this forum who struggle with meter. Was wondering if those of you who have a real grasp on it might be willing to start a thread discussing some of the basics and the allowable exceptions giving example after example until we get it. I know we can all go read a book, but books can’t answer our questions or explain why the way we might scan a line isn’t the way someone else might.  Just a thought.

Essorant
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4 posted 2007-07-21 01:26 AM


Jen


Perhaps some of the sayings about wordstress and variations in this thread may help a bit.  We may begin at any questions you or others may have.  



JenniferMaxwell
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5 posted 2007-07-21 04:26 AM


Thanks, Essorant. From reading that discussion I can see one thing I completely misunderstood, (and wow, do I ever feel dumb!) that a three syllable word like rivalry has only one stress not two as it sounds to my ear. The same with the word posterity, a four syllable word but with only one stress. That’s a huge part of what was throwing me off. My ear was hearing, and thus I was counting, a second stress on the last syllable in both words.

One of the sites noted in that discussion also mentions secondary stress in words but doesn’t really explain much about it except that it’s only used in long words. How would a word with a secondary stress affect meter?


Essorant
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6 posted 2007-07-21 01:17 PM


That is a good question.  I prefer to keep it simple and think of secondary stress as "unstress", in the sense of "unstrongly stressed" since it is not stressed with a main/strong stress, and I think it usually tends to make the meter move a little more quickly, but not as much as normal "unstress".   But there is importance in seeing that secondary stress is often the kind "unstress" that varies the meter a bit, being used where mainstress is usually expected.  As mentioned in "Variation #4":

Find out where the stressed syllable is, such as RIV in RIVulet.  Then count every second syllable away from the stressed syllable in the word.  If there are two syllables to the left of the stressed syllable, the second one to the left may be used where a stress is supposed to be (in expecTAtion the first syllable ex).  If there are two syllables to right of the stressed syllable the second one to the right may be used where a stress is supposed to be in the meter (in RIvulet the last syllable let).  


Hope that helps        


[This message has been edited by Essorant (07-21-2007 03:40 PM).]

JenniferMaxwell
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7 posted 2007-07-21 04:24 PM


Think I understand, Essorant. If you've established a consistent meter, then certain substitutions or allowances are permitted. A normally unstressed second stress may be used in place of a stressed syllable. So there could be instances where the "ry" in "rivalry" might actually be a stressed syllable?



  

Essorant
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8 posted 2007-07-21 05:29 PM


[Edited for correction and clarification]


In Derek Attridge's "Poetic Rhythm" he says:

"Most of the time secondary stress is accomodated very easily to a metrical pattern.  These syllables can function as either stressed or unstressed syllables according to the demands of the meter, and very often the rhythm will accomodate them however they are pronounced."

Secondary stress, it seem is generally interchangeable.  It may function where an normal unstressed syllable should be or where a stressed  syllable should be.  Its stress is somewhere between fully stressed and normal unstressed, so it may easily function as if it is fully stressed or a normal unstressed syllable.   A normally unstressed syllable may also be made to act like a stressed one, and a stressed syllable to act like an unstressed one.  In the book mention above this is called, "promotion" and "demotion":  an unstressed syllable may be "promoted" to a stressed position or "beat" of the rhythm, or a stressed syllable may be "demoted" to an unstressed position or "offbeat".  

"Promotion" and "demotion" need to be practiced with much more carefulness, because they alter the flow of the meter much more than secondary stress. Sometimes using a stressed where an unstressed is expected or unstressed where stressed is expected is meant not to be noticed very much or at all.  But other times it is used for some variation and diversity itself or expressing a special mood which may be done by using more stress and slowing down the meter, or more unstress making the meter move more quickly.  

It may be helpful to make the distinction of "secondary stress" from normal unstress and "promotion", because it is more flexible, but often I don't think it is necessary.  To me Stress = "Main Stress" and Unstress = "Unmainstress" (including secondary stress).  If we really wished to break down "unstress", I am sure we could find the tertiary stress, quaternary stress, and quinary stress too         


[This message has been edited by Essorant (07-22-2007 10:29 PM).]

JenniferMaxwell
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9 posted 2007-07-22 01:27 AM


Interesting you should mention mood and how using more stress can slow down the meter and less can speed it up, Essorant. I have an old poem that basically I’m very happy with except for the fact that it reads too fast and loses the mood I was trying to create. I’ve reworked it dozens of times trying to slow it down and just couldn’t seem to do it except by adding filler words like adverbs and adjectives which I really didn’t want to do. I’ll take another look at it the meter and stresses and see if I can change those somehow yet still keep the same images. Thanks for the tip.


Roysie
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10 posted 2007-08-13 05:20 PM


I have slipped into the quiet spaces
between your dreams and your bruised heart
and watched the darkness there transform
into mornings that shimmer in soft pastels

On the icy steppes of your sleep
where colours lose all meaning I see
meadows of wild flowers in tender blossom
fragile as your reveries

In the steady cadence of your gentle heart
I hear the strains of wonder and longing
Oh sweet, sweet music let not the beauty
rest only on your leaving

Hmmmm I dunno. It just seemed to read this way but I'm not sure now.

JenniferMaxwell
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11 posted 2007-08-13 05:47 PM


I really don’t know what to say, Roy. Guess I’ll just be polite and say, thanks for re-writing my poem.

Grinch
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12 posted 2007-08-13 06:28 PM


I liked this apart from the sweet sweet music, is it significant? If it is it needs some explaining for slow wits like me otherwise I’d lose it because I think it weakens the impact.

It actually reminded me of some of Dylan Thomas’s stuff, very Under Milk Woodish, I found myself doing a very bad impression of Richard Burton as I read it. (DT should always be read with a slightly Welsh tilt to the voice)

If it were mine I’d build on the DT sound and style, you’d have to ignore meter and concentrate on syllabic patterns to supply the rhythm that meter normally injects but I think it would definitely work.

Thanks for the chance to read and reply



Roysie
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13 posted 2007-08-13 07:25 PM


Oooh Sorry. I didn't rewrite it I just wanted to see it in a different format. No offence meant truly.
JenniferMaxwell
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14 posted 2007-08-14 10:40 PM


Thanks Grinch.  This was written for a challenge and the sweet music line was a requirement. Being my drama queen self, I got a bit carried away and repeated the sweet. I'm glad to hear someone else reads in accents, I was wondering if I was a bit strange. Good to know if I am, at least I'm not alone.

As for the form, it was developed by a friend of mine on another site. She calls it "tumbling tercets" and this was my first attempt at trying the form. She does them beautifully but, as you can see, I'm still learning.

No offense taken, Roy, I know you were only trying to be helpful and I appreciate that.

guyoverthere
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15 posted 2007-08-15 10:14 AM


I've read this a few times.  I'm glad I did because my initial reaction was bad.  I felt the whole thing was too pastoral, like you relied solely on those images of flowers and icy steppes to garnish your entree there.  
But after a few reads, I realized that's just not my style, but it is yours and while I (personally) don't like using lots of nature imagery, I like the way you use it.  The last line was a little jolting though.  It didn't seem to flow as well as the rest of your poem.  "oh sweet, sweet music..." sounds almost 19th century to me.  Didn't seem to fit with the rest of the tone of the poem, which in my opinion was touchingly observational and concerned.  That las line impinged in me the image of a young girl clasping her hands together over her heart and shouting prayer out to her catholic god somewhere in rural England.  

guyoverthere
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Posts 58

16 posted 2007-08-15 10:16 AM


Oops, sorry.  Seems grinch beat me to the punch there.  Didn't mean to harp Jennifer.  
JenniferMaxwell
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17 posted 2007-08-15 01:29 PM


LOL on the shouting out to God thing, guy. Told you I was a bit of a drama queen.  

Thanks for the reality check. I'll try not to go so over the top next time.

Now go pick on someone your own size for a change.

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