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Truth or fiction?
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Truth or fiction? |
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RainbowGirl Member Elite
since 1999-07-31
Posts 3023United Kingdom 
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Can I be terribly naive....I read some of the poetry and I read it as though it is/was true and I get totally wrapped in someone's pain and just want to give a hug or some warmth or something that will ease the pain...but I'm also aware that sometimes it's not true but simply a poem... so.. How do I tell?..How do I stop from thinking someone is hurting? ------------------ You give but little when you give of your possessions. It is when you give of yourself that you truly give. [This message has been edited by RainbowGirl (edited 09-21-1999).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Unless the author specifies the poem is based on fiction, you really shouldn't be able to tell. If you can, it means the poet didn't do the job we ask of them (which, in turn, usually means the poet themselves didn't really understand the emotions they were attempting to convey). The truth is, IMOH, if the poet is able to convey the emotions through their writing - even if the story itself is untrue - that means they have lived those feelings. And if that's the case, should it be okay for us to commiserate with them? |
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RainbowGirl Member Elite
since 1999-07-31
Posts 3023United Kingdom |
Thanks for the speedy response Ron...  Two questions though...what does IMOH mean? and I have been aware that I've responded as though a poem was based on today's feelings but in actual fact the feelings were past tense and therefore concern for their wellbeing was unwarranted...in as much as by acknowledging their hurt/pain actually caused more pain...hmmm....how does one put that into words? I guess...I read everything as though the writer talks currently and is that my fault or the essense of a good poet? To take it one step further...someone said to me today that on reading something I had written "If it should be", that it was more powerful on the first read because it wasn't till they got further down the posts that they realised it wasn't for a person but a pet...so, could a disclaimer not appear for those like me, who take everything to heart? Sorry for being long winded, but it's so hard sometimes to get across how I feel.. HUGS ------------------ You give but little when you give of your possessions. It is when you give of yourself that you truly give. [This message has been edited by RainbowGirl (edited 09-21-1999).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
IMOH means "in my humble opinion." (Which is probably a lie. I think Craig is probably the only humble poet I've ever met in my life - and I continually wonder where he finds it. Truth is, all poets have the hubris to believe they actually have something worthwhile to say…) And, yes, I knew exactly where your original question came from even as I responded. Because, like others, I read it without knowing it was about your kitten. But, really, did that make the emotions you portrayed any less real? Did it make you feel any less sad? I guess what I'm trying to say, and did so poorly in my first response, is that you should be proud of the fact you take everything to heart. That's not only what makes for a good poet, I think it's also what makes for a good person. IMHO |
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Iloveit Senior Member
since 1999-09-02
Posts 1121NM |
RG...saw this and know just what you mean. If you or I compose a poem and it sounds like we are sitting at our keyboard crying, well we probably are and probably need all the hugs anyone wants to give. But I have found that posting deep emotions is harder for some and that they aren't able to post them until they have healed and so making the poem after the fact. And some people can write sad poems but are not able to accept the emotional responses from others that the poems ellicit. Guess all I am trying to say is just keep on being you, if a poem makes you want to send a hug, then send one, because that is you, from their reponses after that you can usually tell if they are down and out and need lifting up....well that's the way I try to do it, and I know you and I are lots alike...so I thought this might help you hugs sweet friend |
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RainbowGirl Member Elite
since 1999-07-31
Posts 3023United Kingdom |
Ron Thanks, mail let me down and I didn't know you'd replied till just now..:-)) I couldn't change even if I wanted to, life and the richness of living it has made me who I am today, good or bad..I enjoy me but I do appreciate you saying that feeling another's feelings probably makes for a better person...I know I tend to gravitate towards people who care and aren't afraid to show or say so...that's why I love this place so much...I'm at home with the way I feel! Thanks for the explanation on IMHO and you're right, Craig is humble but not so sure he'd taste good in a pie..*g*...ooops So thank you for creating a home from home.. HUSG Iloveit Yep, we are alike, I just sat here crying when responding to Sylvia...such emotions caused by words that shout off the page at you with such care, such confusion and so much love...How could you not care! HUSG back my friend ------------------ You give but little when you give of your possessions. It is when you give of yourself that you truly give. [This message has been edited by RainbowGirl (edited 09-22-1999).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I'm offended by the phrase 'simply a poem'.  Okay, I'm being a little rude here perhaps and I apologize but I really don't know when a poem became defined as a tool to hide general emotions and not an art form designed to create feelings and thoughts in others. True or fictive, it really shouldn't matter. And I meant 'hide' -- I've read so many poems that, while sincere, don't really give a reader who doesn't know the context, doesn't know the person, any real foundation to feel anything. It's a way, to my mind, to avoid dealing with the situation. How many poems have you read that don't tell you anything except maybe 'I feel good' or 'I feel bad'? Then the comment is usually something like 'I know how you feel'. Well, of course you do, that's all the writer told you. I've debated this before and I have to concede that there is value in 'therapy' poetry. People do seem to enjoy it and it does seem to help. But, a 'simple poem' can turn into something much more than 'simple feeling'; it can make you think and feel things that you never experienced before. In other words, I have the exact opposite reaction to a lot of poetry that you do. Call me self centered but I want more poetry that doesn't tell me how the writer feels but that makes me feel. Is this making any sense? Brad |
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RainbowGirl Member Elite
since 1999-07-31
Posts 3023United Kingdom |
Brad You can be rude anytime ..Something I am noticing is that people tend to write with a certain style, unique to them but almost like a pattern or perhaps a code and when you've read a lot of someone's thoughts, their poems take on personality...or at least they do for me..is that true for you? As for hiding...hmmmmm, maybe it's a case of that first tentative 'dip your foot' in the ocean...the last thing anyone wants is to have their feelings trampled on, so maybe they wait to see the type of response and go from there and little by little their poems become 'I'm talking to YOU!'...Does that make sense? I don't really believe anyone can really say "I know how you feel"...too many variables but I do believe you can say "I know how *I* felt....." I'm lucky in that I do feel that I can expose my heart and people here will simply...'kiss me better' or they'll smile with me...so I didn't really mean "simply a poem" as not worthy, but "simply" as in there's no experience behind the words, it's purely a subject that the writer chose to write about.....and now I wonder if you're thinking to yourself 'but surely to write about a subject you must have some experience?'...oooops, so just in case you are, I'll preempt you, I mean that anyone can research a subject but to have been involved personally in the experience is different....*phew*... What would make YOU feel?...Surely we each are different...just about everything makes me feel something, like; love; passion; revulsion; laughter; pain or the desire to help...I haven't yet been able to determine what it is about the way something is written that makes me read it but there are a few poets here who I will seek out because I know I will totally enjoy what they've written... Guess I have to go and use the 'search tool' now, see what it is that you write about, then I'll come back and edit all of this...*g* Hugs ------------------ You give but little when you give of your possessions. It is when you give of yourself that you truly give. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Brad said: quote: I probably don't disagree with what you mean, Brad, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with the syntax. I think the only thing a poet can ever tell me is how they feel. If they try to tell me something other than their personal feelings, it's going to sound false. (That's not to say they need to have experienced the situation; a writer with empathy and imagination can experience the feelings without the situation. But that is rare.) I'm not suggesting, of course, that a writer has to bluntly say "Okay, this is how I feel." But the story or theme of the poem has to be based on their own personal feelings or there's no Truth within it. "Write what you know" is a cliché for a reason - it works. What I think we agree about, Brad, is that conveying how you feel isn't enough. That's merely communication (with a little "c") and the most you're going to accomplish is to give me a little insight into your life. That's not bad, but it's also not poetry. Poetry (Communication with a big "c" ) only happens when you make me feel what you have felt. Then, instead of merely having insight into your life, I actually am allowed to live your life, if only imperfectly and for a brief moment. At the risk of sounding pretentious, the former gives me only knowledge, but the latter grants me wisdom.The big question, of course, is how do we do that? Writers have hundred, if not thousands, of tools to reach that end, but I think two of the most effective are detail and metaphor. If I want you to feel something I first have to get you to see it, and that is the responsibility of detail. The details have to be significant (which is the hard part) and in just the right measure (almost as hard). There are no trees in poetry, only oaks and willows and firs. Detail is measured in nouns and verbs, and only rarely in adverbs and more rarely in adjectives. But if I get the details just right, the correct details and just enough of them, then I open the door to feelings. Once the door is open, I'm going to need something to push you through it. That's often the job of metaphor. If I ask you to remember the sharp, jarring pain of stubbing your toe, all I really need is a few good, significant details to prod your memory. We've all done it, most of us remember it (clearly!). There's no need to compare it to something else you've done to make you relive the experience. 'Course I'm also not really teaching you anything, either. But if I ask you to remember the ache that clutches your belly when the radio announces a nuclear missile was released and you realize everything you know and everyone you love has thirty minutes until annihilation - well, I have a bit of a problem. That's not something you've experienced before. I can't remind you, no matter the depth of detail I provide. What I can do - what I must do - is compare the feeling to something you likely have experienced. Like maybe that stubbed toe. Of course most metaphors, the best metaphors, aren't that obvious (or that silly). But they're one of the best tools a writer has to make you feel something new, or see something with new eyes, by reminding you of something old. Hey, Brad - you shouldn't get me started that way! |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Rainbow Girl, I'm anxious to hear your opinion on what I write (good or bad). I have three poems posted here at the moment. They are all in Critical Analysis (my hang out). I agree with you about the individual voice 'thing'. In linguistics, they call it an 'idiolect'. Once I get to know a person, you can get away with a lot more stuff because I know where you are coming from. My point really has to deal with people I don't know who expect me to know. A poem about emotion, for example, without any context or detail is, for me, a philosophical abstract on that emotion. I don't know what they are trying to do. I agree with most of what Ron said in the post above me. People often talk about 'truth' but people often don't tell the truth because that's too close for them. I think it's easier to talk about the emotion itself then to talk about where or why that emotion is felt at all. Let's talk about life. Let's write about life and what happens (right down to that annoying fly on the wall). It's harder and in the end, I think, more satisfying. Does that make any sense? Honestly, I'm still trying to figure out the trends I see (and don't particularly like). I really am not sure how to express this feeling yet. One day. Ron, I hope to 'get you started' as much as possible. I think you are a fascinating thinker and want to read more. We disagree (always a strong point from my point of view. God, what a boring world if everybody agreed with everybody) on a couple of things however (and believe me I had to dig to find those). But you're just going to have to wait for those. Having a great time, Brad |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
My philosophy of writing a poem which evokes emotion is to "show" rather than "tell". this goes for whether the poem is based on something that I actually experienced, or whether it is a fictional device i've used to get my message through. The only way to discover whether a *well-written* poem is based on fact or whether it is a fictional tool-- is to contact the author and ask them. Although this isn't really the topic, here is an illustration of how the author might "show" the reader rather than "telling" them. Telling: "You left me and it made me feel miserable. It was snowing outside and I hated you for leaving me. It made me feel like I couldn't function" Showing: "Snow piled up, blocking the door when you closed it behind you. My arms and legs paralized, I froze to the chair, my thoughts, snowdrifts back toward June, when, under the moon on Chesapeake Cove, the bluest blue, the eyes of you, melted my skin. You held me then like we were sewn together. Staring at the inside of a door iced closed, I pray for sun to weather the snow and melt away today. I am the snowfall. You've taken away the sun." thanks for listening..... now that i've written that, i think i'll turn it into a full poem.... hehehe -dp ;-) |
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RainbowGirl Member Elite
since 1999-07-31
Posts 3023United Kingdom |
Brad: I will comment but a bit later..:-)) HUGS doreen: Great poem, I'll look for it..:-)) HUGS ------------------ You give but little when you give of your possessions. It is when you give of yourself that you truly give. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Well, of course I have to throw my two cents in here as well... but first perhaps a little background... Up until a recent change in my life, my poetry/prose came completely from my imagination. I like to think that I am one of the rare, (not medium well-done,) people who experience their strongest emotions through empathy. Until that event, I wrote everything as I thought it "might/must" be, in an attempt to sympathize/empathize with the feelings I portrayed. Whether or not that was done successfully, who's to say? It's all subjective. But...(as always!) But after that event, I began writing from a more personal viewpoint. As was said above, that was not a necessarily easy thing to do at the beginning. One of the hardest things in life is to be honest with yourself, much less with others. And I think that I really stumbled for quite a while after reaching that new step. (I'm really glad I have a shredder, 'cause otherwise my office would have been a fire hazard!) But, slowly the pace is picking up and I am finding myself "getting back in the groove." I still think I have some distance to go before I am as satisfied with my writing as I was before, but at least I am being honest with myself.What my point in that was, is to show that people are ever changing. If you were to sit down and read some of my earlier poetry and get a feel for my "personality," it would be a false personality. The dreaded things I penned had little or nothing to do with personal experiences. Therefore, if you were to feel saddened for me, (which I would hope, because as Ron said, that is the purpose,) then you would be feeling sorrow over a non-existent pain. However, as I grew/matured in my life/poetry, the character you would see from more recent posts would be real. (And on a real time basis as well. Which as Brad so aptly stated, it very therapeutic!) So basically it would depend on where you "get into" a person's life as to whether or not it contains valid, or should I say existing, emotions. Now, not all people write like this of course...just another side of the coin, showing the ever ambuguity of diversity! And a quick note on the disclaimer RG: I would say that a disclaimer might be a good idea on potentially (I guess that might cover everything,) offensive poetry. But it also might detract from the heart of a poem that otherwise might have moved you had you not known the reality. Perhaps by knowing that it was from a writer's imagination, or long bured feelings, you would be less impacted than were you left to wonder. I guess you have to decide whether or not it is important enough to you to want to know. (If you ever want to know about mine, feel free to just put that heart on hold until you can ask me!) You have a beautiful heart RG, as is shown by your concern, don't let that be marred by what you consider "unreal" feelings. For surely even if the poet hasn't felt what they are writing about... someone has. So grieve or be happy for those that did feel it and appreciate the poet for showing it to you! Hugs to you! And a smile too!Chris |
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RainbowGirl Member Elite
since 1999-07-31
Posts 3023United Kingdom |
Ron: I just have to say this, having read the response to the owner of the missing post, I was damned proud of you...cool, calm, authorative and caring...I don't know whether he's read your reply but if I was in his situation I think I'd be feeling a little bit happier... If I were to say that when I read the original post my heart flew out of my chest, that would be a fairly good description and as you say, it comes back to this subject...but what about copycat posts? What's the feeling in general on suicidal posts?Big HUGS to you.. Brad: hmmmmmm, I did seek out your poems but to be honest, they weren't my cup of tea, I found one of them difficult to read and found myself going back to the previous verse (what's the technical term?) to catch the thread and then went back down the poem again...maybe that was a deliberate style, was it? and if so what do you call it? I'm totally honest here, I have no clues about the tech side of poetry and somehow think if I did, my warmth would disappear and everything would become stilted...although a perfectionist in most things, I'm not with what I write...however I'm feeling just comes out and I can't force it either, I do it in about 2 minutes flat and if I try to change it, I end up deleting it, so, I leave it as it is and that's what gets posted..ME!.. Now to the nitty gritty, ever read one of mine? and if so, how terrible were they?...(as I look suitably shamefaced..*g*) HUGS Doreen: I don't know whether I 'show' or 'tell'...to be honest I don't think about it, I get an urge and out it comes in whatever form it chooses...am I unusual in this? Love the poem but haven't seen it on the boards yet, did you post it? HUGS Chris: Had to leave you till last..*g* specially after calling me a brat Tis true what you say about people changing and I am aware of that, same as if someone is normally up and then posts something depressing it stands out like a sore thumb but and there's always one of them, isn't there?..*g*..if the poet didn't write from the heart previously, it's highly unlikely I'll feel anything, I'm drawn to the way in which words are used and how they are used but I couldn't say how really...I do notice that some poets are very structured and they leave me feeling a bit "oh that was nice" whereas someone writing from the heart will give me a feeling of having peeked into their life and they possibly even felt my hug.. Thanks for the "beautiful heart".. As I sit here grinning like a cheshire cat...ooops, well, I did say I was honest,. didn't I..LOL HUGS ------------------ You give but little when you give of your possessions. It is when you give of yourself that you truly give. [This message has been edited by RainbowGirl (edited 09-28-1999).] |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
Rainbow girl, no I haven't finished writing that poem yet... when I do, i'll post it. As far as "showing" rather than "telling", i find that often my first draft of a poem has more of the "telling" aspect to it. Then I go into editing mode.... and I might edit that poem 4-5 times before I feel it ready for posting. When editing, I look at what the poem is saying and try to find BETTER ways to say it. I take a feeling that I've written down and expand it into a metaphor or use imagery to describe it, rather than just coming right out and saying it. When I do this, i often refer to my thesauraus to find "better" words to express the meaning more deeply... I might go through this process several times before I consider the poem worth posting. In addition, I read the poem aloud to catch rhythms which may be off... or rhymes and meter which don't quit mesh. (even in my free verse, I use internal rhyming). Sometimes, this process alerts me of an even "better" word or phrase which will SHOW, rather than tell.... meaning it will use sensory imagery to put the reader in the moment of the poem. What did it smell like? What did it taste like? What comparison could I make about how it looked to something more familiar to my audience? All of this is pretty simplistic and doesn't go into the depth of the creative process as much as it can... but i'm trying to give you an idea of what I mean by "showing" rather than "telling". Often, this process can take me to different levels and "fiction" will result. What I am trying to convey is TRUTH, the way I see it at the moment, but by using imagery to "SHOW" my audience what I mean, I often result in a fictional account of some incident that never happened.... ok, so, all this to answer your question about whether you are "unusual" to write whatever way it comes out.... NO, not unusual, and I think you have some wonderful verse posted on these boards. I would just encourage you to try to delve into this method of working with your poem MORE.... do not let it stand the way it originally came out.... go farther and find the BEST possible metaphor, image, sensory verbiage to relay your feeling. Your "truth" may develop some "fictional" characteristics by doing so, but the fictional imagery will result in your ability to speak your truth more clearly. Thanks for listening. Hope this makes sense. ;-) dp |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Rainbow Girl, Now what am I supposed to do with all this thought provoking stuff? I have read some of your poems (two to be exact -- one was about the dawn) and we are definitely on different tracks. Nothing wrong with that. What a boring place this would be if everybody wrote or thought like me. I agree with doreen about the editing point and the showing versus telling (and if you post a poem at Critical Analysis I'll go into more detail -- hint, hint). You write what I've come to call 'ectatic poetry' and if you want to discuss this more, I wonder if you might post something at the philosophy forum (am I a shameless promoter or what? You've said, I think, some very, very serious things in your post and I think others might be interested in discussing these. Specifically, poetry as identity and craft versus emotion.Being the shameless self-promoter that I am, I'll quote from a poem I wrote not yet posted here: That the true is a lie and the lie true Is an often forgotten paradox. Poets should remember what they already knew. Brad |
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JTF Member
since 1999-08-09
Posts 319France |
First I plead guilty because it's me who told RG that I found her poem more powerful on the first read before I knew she was talking about Kara (her kitty). RG, I read that poem and I felt your emotions ... As Ron said, I lived a moment of your life and it speaks volume about the quality of your poem ... and then a couple of posts later I saw what was behind ... and I honestly admit that my first thought was "Ohh, I have cried my heart and wet my keyboard (you know I'm a softie) over a cat" ... but I realised that I was crying because I was sharing your emotions and it didn't really matter whether it was about a person or a pet. I believe though that one reacts differently when they know the story behind ... I know I do ... I'll make an analogy ... when I look at Picasso's Guernica I'm awed by his style, his technique, his way to convey feelings ... but my emotions are more powerful because I know what is behind, the horror of the Spanish civil war and Picasso's own political engagement ... a poem will hit me stronger if I know it's a "true story". Well, enough for my 2 cents. Anyway I'm glad if my initial remark prompted that very interesting discussion ... ... brilliant posts folks !and sweetheart thank you for showing me (nah I didn't say shower) that thread ... ... I must admit I had never been to that forum before. |
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suicidal dreams Member
since 1999-09-28
Posts 343Toledo Ohio USA |
I have one thing to say most of my poetry is on my beliefs and my life and its many experiences. if i write a fictional poem it is rare and i will tell people that it is totally fictional before i write it. ------------------ life is short kill quick |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
RG and everyone else ~ I started to read, then realized just how far "up" the button on the left was, meaning I was in for SOME reading...but a quick scan of it all leaves me to say this: If a poem tugs, pulls, or otherwise plays your heartstrings, it is a poem well-written; but if in addition it makes your gray matter tingle, it is doubly so. I'll read the rest later - after all, I AM supposed to be working... ------------------ Sunshine Look, then, into thine heart, and write ~~~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow |
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RainbowGirl Member Elite
since 1999-07-31
Posts 3023United Kingdom |
JTF: I agree about the emotions brought about by such paintings and especially if you know the history...a bit like walking through The Louvre or The Cathedral of Notre Dame on the Ile de la Cité by the Seine..:-)) Such a beautiful place..:-)) HUSG SD: Thanks for saying that, it helps no end..:-)) HUGS Sunshine/Ron/Brad...Did you all desert a sinking ship?..Where's your lifebelts?..*g* HUGS ------------------ You give but little when you give of your possessions. It is when you give of yourself that you truly give. [This message has been edited by RainbowGirl (edited 10-03-1999).] |
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Lucie Senior Member
since 1999-06-20
Posts 1077Houston |
I have to put my ~change~ in here too.. When I write a poem, it is not always about me. (and I have changed my signature line to reflect that) But since it does come from my soul it belongs to me. The emotion the pain and the work that made it touch other people. When I can write a poem like that I feel fulfilled. When I can take a situation that may have effected someone elses life and put into words what they themselves could not, then I have written a good poem. And thats all I have to say about that! ------------------ Not all poems I write are about me personally, yet they do come from MY soul. |
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