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Passions in Poetry

I know this sounds like a stupid question...

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fractal007
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0 posted 11-27-2000 01:42 AM       View Profile for fractal007   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for fractal007

Can you write poetry in Heaven?

Since I am a Christian, that's a question that's haunted me for a long time.  Is heaven all just sitting on your knees for all eternity, and praising God?

I'm sorry, but the thought of spending all eternity on my knees, in the clouds, does not really appeal very much to me.  I want to still use the gifts God has given me, in Heaven.


PS:  I know that this question is biased(toward the validity of Christianity), but it's nevertheless a dilemma which I thought I ought to throw into the Philosophy board here. Most Christian message boards would probably just shun me and call me Satanic for not wanting to spend all eternity on my knees, not being creative anymore.
Poet deVine
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1 posted 11-27-2000 09:21 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

I think the Poets in Heaven write the songs that the Angels sing!!! That's why I know Poets will ALWAYS go to heaven.  
Denise
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2 posted 11-27-2000 09:23 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I'm sure whatever gifts or talents we have now we will use even more then and for all eternity for His glory! How's that sound?  

Denise
Tony Abbot
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3 posted 11-28-2000 11:10 AM       View Profile for Tony Abbot   Email Tony Abbot   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tony Abbot

This is why the Christian concept of Heaven is laughable.Surely ,the fundamental aspect of our existence is to use our talents to help and bring pleasure to each other.In Heaven,I'm sure we continue to serve others,as we do,or should do on Earth.The idea that God wants us to worship him ,is a great insult,as it implies he is infinitely vain.Why do we project our narcissism and vanity on to God?
Also,when one takes into account such geniuses as Leanardo Da Vinci,Richard Wagner etc.,does it not make you think that maybe we live more than once,and that our talents are developed over long periods of time?

While I believe that talents are initially God-given,I think it is up to us to foster them and make the most of them.Those who do will reap the benefits.Why would God single out certain people,and bestow them with genius? Does that not imply favouritism?They must have earned their genius,and usually show the trait of tireless hard work i.e. Mozart worked 12 hours a day at his music.

Da Vinci is a shining embodiment of what can be achieved through immortality.In the 15th century,he was painter,sculptor,inventor,engineer,astronomer,professor of languages and history ,author,musician,storyteller etc.The list is endless.Now,why would God give one man all those abilities?Wouldn't that be unfair??Da Vinci must have earned his talents through applying himself in previous lives.

People need to show perspicacity when it comes to religion,and should never be afraid of being ridiculed by sequacious religionists,or being accused of working for the devil,perhaps the least convincing fictional character ever invented.

The Black Plague was caused by the spreading of the disease by rats.They were overrun with rats because the Church had ordered that cats,who had previously kept the rat population under control, be killed as they were thought to be the work of the devil.Go figure.  


'Humankind cannot bear too much reality' T.S.Eliot



[This message has been edited by Tony Abbot (edited 11-28-2000).]
fractal007
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4 posted 11-28-2000 02:00 PM       View Profile for fractal007   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for fractal007

Thankyou all for your replies.

Poet Devine, and Denise, thankyou for those ideas.  That is how I hope Heaven will be.  

I originally wrote this post with the imagery of Revelation in mind.  However, this imagery, one has to remember, is based upon a vision that the author had(or, according to some commentaries, was having at the time it was written).


Tony:

Some interesting concepts.  As mentioned above, much of Christianity's concept of Heaven is based soley upon the book of revelation, which was mostly a vision.  My post was mostly about the beliefs of some fundamental Christian's, namely in the concept that the Bible should be taken literally in everything it says.

Now, about reincarnation, I do not believe in it.  Frankly, lol, one life in this world is enough for me.  Secondly, you're making a lot of assumptions about the limitations of the human mind here.  For example, Einstein's brain was found to be different, physiologically, from many other people's brains.  How does your theory account for this?  Although it is still possible that he was reincarnated, the issue of his different brain still raises some questions about what physically makes a genius.  

Secondly, being a genius is not some wonderful thing.  Although I am not a genius, I am known to think and ponder a lot about major moral and philosophical dilemmas, until my face turns blue.  Some people tell me this constitutes genius, but I don't know.  I am sure that many other people do this, as well, and besides, I consider it narcicistic(sp) to label one's self a genius.  Anyway, this tendency of mine often results in depression, or preocupations and obsessions, which can cause some pretty nasty problems in my social life.  

Many people who are known to be geniuses have also lived some pretty horrible lives.  Consider Keats.  Mozart was manic depressive.  Einstein had a learning disability.  Stephen Hawking has ALS.  

About the devil, and showing perspicity:

In my opinion, the greatest testament to the Devil's work in this world was convincing this world that he does not exist.  I think that this has much to do with the actions of the medieval church, as you've mentioned in your post.  The Devil, like most other religious figures, has, throughout history, been abused, and used as an excuse for torturing and suppressing the masses.  If the devil was anywhere in those times, he was probably in the minds of the clergy, making them come up with such stupid ideas like cats being Satanic.

Finally, I have been called a countless barrage of *religious* bad words by fellow Christians.  Their favourite one is 'liberal'.  If you wish, I can go into the reason that I think that word is misused so much by the Church.  However, you and a dictionary can easilly figure out that one.  

I have also been attacked by "evolutionists"(again, in my opinion, this is a tragic term to use for those who are non-religious), for just accepting whatever the church spoonfeeds me.  However, it is my not accepting whatever the church spoonfeeds me that causes the problem that I have with so many fellow Christians, in the first place!
Tony Abbot
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5 posted 11-28-2000 05:03 PM       View Profile for Tony Abbot   Email Tony Abbot   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tony Abbot

The points you've raised are actually consistent with my theories.I believe everything in creation is unique,and I believe God incarnates us into suitable physical bodies to carry out the life we wish to pursuei.e.someone who wishes to be an athlete will need to be born into a suitable family that would result in giving them the physique required.Though physical characteristics are phylogenetically heriditary,I still believe the mind is seperate to the brain and is the centre of personality,postulates created by the mind,determining action.The mind must plug into the brain.Think about it,how can a piece of meat have a personality? The concept of memory cells makes little sense also.How can a thought be stored physically?My theory is that the mind is the 'computer' of the spirit,which is linked to the brain,the 'computer' to the body.An eminent scientist called Wilder Penfield,launched an investigation into this subject.Like most academics,he started out believing the brain is responsible for the mind.However,after studying thousands of patients,he concluded that ,'The mind stands above the content of consciousness at any moment.It is an independent entity.The mind directs and the brain executes.The brain is the messenger to the consciousness'.

As for your remarks that 'geniuses' often have miserable lives,that is fundamental to my philosophy.Though my beliefs differ from Eastern religions,I do believe in karma and reincarnation.Just as 'geniuses' will have reaped their talents from earlier lives,they,like everyone else,have to atone for their previous life sins,to the extent that they caused others to suffer.
As for Mozart being manic depressive,many composers have highly emotional temperaments,and in fact,their passion for their subject,their 'magnificent obsession',is what creates their 'genius' ,as their knowledge and ability increases from life to life.As this passionate temperament often can result in excessive behaviour,they often incur much suffering for themselves,and this is how we get the myth of the tortured genius i.e. Beethoven.Is it not strange that he went deaf so gradually,that he was able to continue composing?

It is commendable that you are thinking hard about spiritual matters,and you must keep an open mind and not be unduly influenced by the aberrated thinking of others.It is a shame you've been 'shot by both sides',so to speak.

At the end of the day,our beliefs are irrelevant.What matters is our behaviour.But through trying to understand the meaning of our existence,it can help us to become better people and help others.




'Humankind cannot bear too much reality' T.S.Eliot



[This message has been edited by Tony Abbot (edited 11-28-2000).]
Tony Abbot
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6 posted 12-05-2000 12:09 PM       View Profile for Tony Abbot   Email Tony Abbot   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tony Abbot

Taking into account the thread of this discussion so far,would anyone like to proffer their views about the meaning of our existence,the reasons for suffering,and the role that our talents play in life?

'Humankind cannot bear too much reality' T.S.Eliot
jbouder
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8 posted 12-05-2000 12:25 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Tony:

It looks like you have a few ideas for new threads.  Why don't you start one?

Jim
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9 posted 12-06-2000 03:17 PM       View Profile for Moon Dust   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Moon Dust

Fractal - Heaven is what you make it, same applies to life.
You meet many people on the path of life, from each you learn something new, time is an illision.

Tony - we exist so that we may learn, we suffer to aid us in learning and survival, the role of our talents to use them wisely.
  



Life has got to chnage,
Nothing stays the same,
Soon it will be time,
For me to move on.

jbouder
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10 posted 12-06-2000 04:08 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Maria:

A pessimist might say:

Heaven remains unchanged no-matter how hard we try to force our will toward the end of changing it.  Life is not much different.  We are thrown in the path of many people as we ride the crest of the wave of life but are dashed to pieces against the rocks long before we really figure anything out.  Enlightenment is an illusion.

We exist in spite of our relative weakness, we suffer because we are mortal, and our talents may help us alleviate our misery for a time but, in the end, do little more than delay the inevitable.

The question that remains, I suppose, is what makes you right and the pessimist wrong?  

Jim
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11 posted 12-06-2000 04:13 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

well stated and asked mr. bouder
fractal007
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12 posted 12-06-2000 05:21 PM       View Profile for fractal007   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for fractal007

Tony:

You said earlier, that if one wants to be an athlete, one must be born into a family with the necessary genetics.  You are implying that before one is born, one is sentient.  Exactly when, according to the ideas of reincarnation, does existance as a spiritual entity(or other sentient being) begin?  How does reincarnation account for the fact taht the world's population is growing?  

It is my belief that God creates the soul, as the body is being molded in the womb.  What that soul does with his/her life is his/her choice.  And afterward, of course, you are aware that I am a Christian, so you know what I believe about what happens after death.

Second point:

What evidence do you have for the existance of reincarnation?  Much spiritual beliefs in the world today have very little scientific evidence, so I am sure that you can argue the same against my beliefs.  Reincarnation, I am aware, has evidence which some feel proves it.  The most prominant being the accounts of the 'past lives' of subjects under hypnosis.  However, it can be argued that a subject's memories may be tampered with by the hypnotist(unintentionally) while said subject is under hypnosis.  This effect has been observed in the past, when a group of people was convinced that they were lost in a mall when they were three.  The subjects were NOT under hypnosis at the time of the experement.  If hypnosis is what many claim it to be, namely a state in which one is extremely suseptable to suggestion, then how much more likely is it that the stories of past lives could have been unknowingly, or subconsciously fabricated?


Finally, this part of your statements is something we do agree on:

"How can a thought be stored physically?My theory is that the mind is the 'computer' of the spirit,which is linked to the brain,the 'computer' to the body.An eminent scientist called Wilder Penfield,launched an investigation into this subject.Like most academics,he started out believing the brain is responsible for the mind.However,after studying thousands of patients,he concluded that ,'The mind stands above the content of consciousness at any moment.It is an independent entity.The mind directs and the brain executes.The brain is the messenger to the consciousness'."

It can be argued that memories are stored in the form of RNA which can be accessed in a manner similar to the way in which a computer accesses its memory on its hard drive.  However, I find it difficult to believe that the brain can just randomly form over a period of billions of years, and then harbor its own personality and intelligence.  I do believe that evolution is a valid scientific explaination of our existance, but I do not believe that it was a random occurrance.  That's a little far fetched.  

So, we agree.  I too believe that the brain is a piece of hardware(wetware, as some call it) which facilitates the physical manifestation of the soul/mind.  That's my quarrel with young earth theorists, who think that the earth was created literally in the way the Bible says.  It is well known that the development of the minds that we have now, was not a difficult one, genetically.(See David Sizuki's "The Nature of Things"  I can't remember which episode.  lol, I do pretty good references, eh?)  How do we know that the "forbidden fruit" does not represent something?  Perhaps some physical change that would allow us to be like God, and "know good from evil"...

[This message has been edited by fractal007 (edited 12-06-2000).]
Brad
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13 posted 12-08-2000 10:39 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Still don't have time to address this seriously but, Jim, have you been reading Heidegger? We are indeed 'thrown' into life's path.

Wow!!!

Brad

PS Next week, next week.
jbouder
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Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


14 posted 12-09-2000 08:17 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Brad:

I've had an interest in the pessimists for years but haven't gotten around to a serious study of Heidegger.  I do think I've told you before that I think many of the German philosophers have a Lutheran influence in regards to how man is perceived in the grand scheme of things.  I look forward to your input.  

Jim
 
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