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Passions in Poetry

Call off the dogs...

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nakdthoughts
Member Laureate
since 10-29-2000
Posts 19275
Between the Lines


25 posted 01-31-2004 10:28 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

from one recent ranter to another..some days it helps to rant and others..well...

M
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


26 posted 01-31-2004 11:27 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Tim,

I can understand rants and bad moods. I'm just not quite sure you understood my first post. All I was trying to get at is that the attempt to abstract, distance, and/or balance the situation isn't always the best way to go when in fact the issue is personal.

Because I really do believe that there's just a misunderstanding here. Part of it is as I've said a basic disagreement about poetry itself (I know, nobody cares), part of it is a misunderstanding on the nature of the forums (This is an interesting question: should or shouldn't they become more segregated?), and part of it is an attempt to cover up things through abstractions or vagueness when people will still read between the lines. I do think that a lot of this could have been avoided.

"Common sense" just ain't what it used to be.
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


27 posted 01-31-2004 12:34 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Quite the misnomer, Brad, calling sense "common."
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


28 posted 01-31-2004 01:14 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

It might surprise you, Tim, to discover I agree with your overall point (while disagreeing with a fair number of tangential points), and have said much the same thing on more than one occasion. If we want people to feel safe to express an opinion, we can't afford to condemn anyone for expressing an opinion. If we want to receive respect, we have to be willing to first give it.

I would sincerely like to believe that if someone jumps into my pool without looking they will find themselves swimming with dolphins, not sharks.

However, in defense of the indefensible, human nature isn't so easily manipulated. Ever have someone stand before your bench after taking a swing at a policeman? Chances are he wasn't standing very well, because we all know that when violence erupts there is no such thing as "a" policeman. Circling the wagons is a pretty common response to perceived threats.

I honestly appreciate your reminder, Tim, that everyone in the pool should act a bit more like dolphins and little less like sharks. I hope people will take it to heart and remember your admonishments in the future. And that's neither condescension nor arrogance, though I suspect you may think otherwise. Still, when someone comes along and starts poking the dolphins with a stick, I'm not going to be too surprised when the dolphins poke back. And if the individual keeps right on poking? My only recourse is to get them the hell out of the pool as quickly as I can.

Goldenrose has poked his last dolphin in this pool.

Strangely, I don't seem to have the patience I did five years ago. Or maybe it's not so strange? ARH alluded to "why people are leaving PiP" and "I wonder why everyone is at a loss as to the reason why?" The implication is that I don't know why and, more, that I don't want anyone to leave. They're leaving because their goals don't mesh with our goals, and life would be a whole lot simpler if everyone would just leave when they found themselves at irreconcilable odds with our philosophies. This place isn't a monolith being built, and I have no desire to change people who don't want to be changed. I just want a place where like-minded people can enjoy poetry. Of all the disgruntled people recently departed, there is exactly one name I regret losing. While the rest will remain respected friends, they are friends who NEVER belonged in this setting. Why should I want a friend to stay where they are unhappy? Why should I want a friend to stay and make everyone else equally unhappy? In leaving, I believe they made the right choice. For them, and for us. I honestly wish a few others would show the same wisdom.

I'm certainly not sorry to see Goldenrose leave, intentionally or otherwise. I am sorry, however, that his vitriol escalated a simple misunderstanding into something unnecessarily hurtful. I find it ironic that he kept telling others to "butt out" when his own involvement was much less than peripheral to the original complaint. He wanted to be a knight in shining armor, fighting someone else's battle for them, and I find no fault in that, only irony. Sadly, he was an inadequate and unchivalrous knight, doing far more to hurt ARH's cause than to help it.

It's a pity, too, because I think ARH's complaint was a valid one.

I long ago asked our critiquers to NOT question someone's decision to turn off their critique flag. I think it is simply impolite to raise those questions, especially in public, and could almost be viewed as harassment. It's a bit like asking someone in the office on a date and then grilling them when they say no. Trouble is, I didn't envision the possibility of conflicting messages being sent, and that lack of vision is entirely my own fault. What do you do when you ask someone on a date and they say Yes while they continue to vigorously shake their head No?

In retrospect, I think it's fairly clear that ARH didn't understand what a critique is, at least within the context of our forums. There's certainly no fault to be found in that. But I also don't think there's any fault to be found in Severn asking for clarification. I mean, what would YOU do if someone said Yes while shaking their head No? The only alternative to asking is assuming. I do, however, suspect Kamla should probably have stopped with the first question and waited for an answer. "What if a person doesn't actually have anything 'nice' to say?" carries implications I'm pretty sure were never meant to be taken literally. But then, I'm pretty sure of that only because I know Kamla, and I suspect she, too, can see where rhetorical questions can be easily misconstrued when the speaker isn't known well enough. I think she's clearly said, a few times now, that her intent was never to hurt.

By the by, while I'm perfectly willing to hear other opinions, I personally think Severn's final question in that thread was valid even when the critique flag is NOT checked. "What does it mean?" is a good question to ask at any time. Of course, there's also nothing wrong with the author refusing to answer. Questions don't impose obligations, but that shouldn't mean the questions can't still be asked. Others may disagree?

In ARH's original thread, she expressed concern about new Members perhaps misunderstanding the critique flag as she had misunderstood it. That's a valid concern, as yet unaddressed. There's a short paragraph in your Profiles, directly above the two critique prompts, that could perhaps be better worded so misunderstandings don't occur. I welcome suggestions. I would also welcome suggestions on how we can encourage people to actually read it.

What I'm not prepared to do, however, is removed choices for everyone because some might not understand the choices being offered. Even if that would prevent all misunderstandings, which we all know it wouldn't, it would still be the wrong answer. I would like to think that when misunderstandings inevitably occur, they can be resolved without rancor. And maybe with Goldenrose now excised, that hope can become a reality?
A Romantic Heart
Member Ascendant
since 09-03-99
Posts 5497
Forever In Your Heart


29 posted 01-31-2004 04:53 PM       View Profile for A Romantic Heart   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for A Romantic Heart

Thanks Ron,

  That is all I needed was to be understood..some understanding. Thanks for seeing the point of my orginal post.
  It was never my intentions for all of this to get so far out of hand...

  Just to be listened too and acknowledged, understood is peace for me.

Open your eyes, open your mind, open your heart, let me come in and show you love.....~ARH

passing shadows
Member Empyrean
since 08-26-99
Posts 46297
displaced


30 posted 02-09-2004 04:46 AM       View Profile for passing shadows   Email passing shadows   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for passing shadows

whew! now I remember why I stay out of the discussion forums as much as I can..just popped in to see if there was anything important that I was missing...I'm leaving now to go back to the poetry...but one note first...

Ron, you sure do have to write a lot to explain stuff around here...that's a shame. Thanks for your continuous patience and understanding. I hate it when the site must shut down for a cooling off period, because of a few people, all of us suffer. Hang in there!  
Michelle_loves_Mike
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Senior Member
since 12-20-2003
Posts 1200
Pennsylvania


31 posted 02-09-2004 09:11 PM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

Tim, no one like to be ridiculed,,,,even if it is only seen as a ridicule to them alone. Some times things are taken out of context, to whether its a personal attack or not,,,,thats the bad thing about the computer,,,the words are there to read,,but the facial expressions and body language aren't,,,,
take care
Michelle

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

bslicker
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 12-04-2000
Posts 2416
state of mind


32 posted 02-10-2004 09:41 AM       View Profile for bslicker   Email bslicker   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bslicker

Gosh, this topic and the threads involved, time to leave reading about it.  So I guess I will just go back to reading and posting like I did before this topic started. Because I think questions and answers were given within the very first topic of this discussion.  

I guess I will just continue to write my posts and write my repies the way I have since I been here at PIP.

Just want to be a dolphin I guess, as Ron put it.  

By the way good example Ron.

Oh yea I decided not stop building computers, servers, and networks and go back to school, to become one that has a degree in English.  I think I am smart enough, it takes all of us to live in this world.

As John Lennon has said in the song "Imagine".  Oh and his wife on the Grammies backed that up....

Bernie

A smile a day keeps the world in smile's.
Bernie Slicker

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


33 posted 02-10-2004 09:56 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
".  Oh and his wife on the Grammies backed that up....


Um, where did he say that in "Imagine"?
2writeis2be
Junior Member
since 01-11-2004
Posts 42
Live in London, but from TX


34 posted 02-10-2004 03:32 PM       View Profile for 2writeis2be   Email 2writeis2be   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for 2writeis2be

This thread and others on here are healthy and good to see in my opinion. It is communication. Expression. People should be aloud to voice their opinions, rightly or wrongly and say what they like, as long as it isn't totally mean and full of contempt. A forum is a gathering place for readers and writers alike, a place where people should be able to talk freely. Seems to me PIP is having alot of conflicts atm and members leaving because certain members and moderators(cliques that have formed too)are trying to censor "freedom of speech" as well as freedom of thought. Seems that whatever anyone says, somebody else has a go at them. Ridiculous really--why can't people on PIP just be aloud to post what they want? Most of the time it gets all blown out of proportion by somebody being way over-sensitive. It all seems like thought control lately--as one guy mentioned awhile back. It's a bit off-putting seeing everyone attacking everyone over little subjects of discussion. All those people who get  bothered by things people say shouldn't be reading in the forums other than the poetry if that's the case. Discussions obviously aren't for them.Save themselves from getting all upset about nothing. Just let people be and say what they want. I think if that theory was applied, there wouldn't be quite as much arguing.   But whatever

"Why don't you try and learn from my mistakes? It takes half a lifetime to learn from your own."
 
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