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Passions in Poetry

conscientious objector..what do you say about it?

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Drauntz
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0 posted 06-13-2007 01:47 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz


egoism?
selfishness?
self interest?
Altruism?
Larry C
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1 posted 06-13-2007 07:28 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Conviction.
Ringo
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2 posted 06-13-2007 08:40 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Depends on whether it is a true conviction, or a convition of convenience, and just something to use as a knee-jerk protest.

What would you attempt to do...if you knew you could not fail?.
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Stephanos
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3 posted 06-13-2007 08:42 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

It does really depend upon the motive.  Conviction or cowardice is a matter of the heart.

Larry C
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4 posted 06-13-2007 10:06 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Well I can only speak for myself. I was a CO based on religious conviction and was willing to go to Vietnam without a weapon.
Essorant
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5 posted 06-14-2007 01:59 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

The whole Universe  

(See the "Cornered" thread)
Stephanos
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6 posted 06-14-2007 04:09 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant what does that have to do with the price of Tea in China?


Stephen
oceanvu2
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7 posted 06-14-2007 07:02 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Having faced, as many others did and do today, this precise dilemma, my feelings are somewhat ambiguous.

When I recieved my draft notice in the Viet Nam era, I fully and truly believed that all wars, including that one, were moral abominations, and participation would inevitably result in the degradation of my soul.

I also believed it was my responsibility as a citizen to serve in the military when called.  This notion, apparently, was more strongly engrained in me, personally, than the notions of refusal, flight, or seeking CO status.

Hindsight being wonderful, I of course, the least likliest of soldiers, made the wrong decision, and I've paid for it ever since with a debilitating and occasionally hospitalizing "knowing" that I made, for me, a cowardly choice.  The choice to participate.

I don't know how it is for others, and don't presume to speak for anyone else.  I have nothing but the greatest respect -- an unresolvable conundrum  -- for those who serve and those who choose not to. FOR ANY REASON AT ALL.

At the time of the Vietnam war, it was a life altering decision for slightly older fellows like me, to serve or not.  The number of those who "opted out" or chose to serve as valiant unarmed Medics, or go to Canada, or go to jail, was statiscally miniscule, and I suspect, comprised as a group, the truly committed anti-war protestors, with deep religious or ethical convictions, and enormous personal strength.

Given the current all volunteer military, with an older average age, it is possible to forget that the average age of the Viet Nam era Army draftee or volunteer was 19.  

I doubt that these "kids," my fellow soldiers, had the maturity to make a reasoned decision.  What I don't doubt is that military service in time of war will profoundly affect the remainder of a "vetran's" life, as it has for all vetrans of all wars on any "side."

Looking at it again today, as my grand children approach the age of draft-potential should a draft be reinstitued, I would advise them all to buy a ticket to the Canary Islands.  I want them to live, and I hope they will never have to, or want to, participate in murderous madness.

Right now, in my own obscure spiritual way, I pray for our soldiers as individuals, for the Iraquis and the Afghanis and every other individual in every other place where people are being killed or encouraged to kill.  

Heavy duty question.

Best, Jim  
Huan Yi
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8 posted 06-14-2007 09:18 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


A man has a moral obligation
not to promote by participation
a cause he does not by the evidence
believe in.   However it may not be
until he is actually involved before
he can make that decision.

To merely say that war per se is immoral
and thereby justifies non-participation
only feeds the lions.


.
Essorant
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9 posted 06-15-2007 01:01 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Stephanos,

The price of Tea in China is a part of the Universe, and therefore partly determines the whole Universe, in so far as it may.  

But the whole Universe is the whole (including the price of Tea) and therefore it wholly determines the price of Tea in China.  



Edward Grim
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10 posted 06-15-2007 09:43 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

quote:
The price of Tea in China is a part of the Universe, and therefore partly determines the whole Universe, in so far as it may.  

But the whole Universe is the whole (including the price of Tea) and therefore it wholly determines the price of Tea in China.


That might very well be the strangest thing you've ever said.

“Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.”

Larry C
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11 posted 06-15-2007 04:13 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Gotta say, Ess, I don't buy it.

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane,
I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.

Essorant
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12 posted 06-15-2007 05:08 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

You don't need to buy it; just like I don't need to buy that our choices are in vacuums and not in conjunction with the rest of the universe.
Stephanos
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13 posted 06-15-2007 11:48 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant,

The phrase "tea in china" had to do with asking you ... what does your monistic philosophy have to do with being a conscientious objector????


I guess such a non-sequitur was predetermined by the cosmic "One"?  I guess you had no choice.  pity.





Stephen.
oceanvu2
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14 posted 06-16-2007 05:29 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Huan Yi --  Gotta love them "moral" wars.  I guess you get to pick and choose depending on whose side you're on.

I'm sticking to my guns (though not firing them).  War is immoral.  

Whether war is necessary, useful, unavoidable, inevitable etc. -- none of which you said in this thread so far -- is a whole other tea cask.

Best, Jim
Larry C
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15 posted 06-18-2007 12:45 AM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Ess,
I have read many philosophy threads. And I confess to an element of admiration for those of you who do debates that I read. From the time I was exposed to philosophy in my college career there was much that I found that I not only did not believe but had no interest in. Not much has changed about that. I am not much interested in debating or philosophy but I am exremely intrigued by logic. Most often it is Ron who makes me wish that I had the skills to participate in those dialogues. But I find for the most part I am not philosophically minded enough. It was only my intent to simply take a personal stand as it relates, ultimately, to a topic that is quite personal for me. And because of that I gave my brief and less than philosophical reply. Just know I do enjoy watching the discussions and will continue to do that from a distance. Regards, Larry C

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane,
I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.
Essorant
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16 posted 06-18-2007 01:51 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Stephanos

It was meant to show the contrasting side of choice: that even though a choice is made attatched to the self, the choice is also made attached and in conjunction with the rest of the universe as well.  For neither the self nor the choice is in a vacuum, but they come and go to and from a conjunction with everything else under the whole universe

Essorant
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17 posted 06-18-2007 01:58 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Larry

No problem.
Not everyone needs to wrangle.

 
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