How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 Cornered   [ Page: 1  2  ]
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Cornered

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


0 posted 01-08-2006 11:36 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


What makes you think you are not cornered by the whole universe into being and doing everything you are?

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


1 posted 01-09-2006 12:35 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Perspective
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


2 posted 01-09-2006 12:53 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

What makes you think your perspective is not cornered by the whole universe into being and doing everything it is?
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


3 posted 01-09-2006 08:18 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Are you asking why I don't believe in absolute determinism?


Because I'd have to believe either 1) I have no real choices, or 2) My ability to choose is a complete illusion, and only apparant.


Experience doesn't mesh with #1.  And starting from myself, there is no way to prove or disprove #2.


Stephen.  

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


4 posted 01-09-2006 09:26 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Stephanos

I'm not questioning the existance of choices.

But am asking if we and our choices are governed by and in conjunction with the whole universe.  Under how all things are and are changing, what conciously or unconciously, directly or indirectly, doesn't line you up in conjunction with the rest of the universe to be everything you are and line you up to make every choice you ever make?  How aren't we thus cornered by the whole universe?  

Are our choices anything more than a wonder or phenomenon wrung out by the shape and changes of a whole universe?

Indeed you may say you made a choice, but how do you say that choice wasn't in conjunction with everything else around that choice, everything in yourself and everything in the rest of the universe, and that the whole universe didn't line you up and "corner" you into making that choice?


[This message has been edited by Essorant (01-09-2006 12:28 PM).]

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


5 posted 01-09-2006 10:03 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Um, That's just a long way of saying "determinism" again.


I already gave you points, as to why I don't believe in absolute determinism.  If you want to pursue those points we can continue, and talk in more detail.  


Stephen.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


6 posted 01-09-2006 10:46 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I acknowledged your points Stephanos.  That's why my post above is in context of making choices.  

But you didn't answer any of the questions.  

How are we and our choices not cornered by the whole universe into being and doing everything we are?
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


7 posted 01-09-2006 02:33 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Why should choices be "unreal" if they are bound and in conjunction with the whole universe instead of just themselves or those that make those choices?  

It may mean they are hardly "free", but nevertheless they are choices.  
I don't believe I'm free from the universe thro life or death,  why should I feel I am free from it in my choices?  I believe I am presently the most conscious government over myself, but I also believe the shape of me and that "government" is only in conjunction with itself in conjunction with everything else in the rest of the universe--my body, other conscious "governments" and other bodies.  If the rest of the universe did not exist I would not exist either.  If the rest of the universe were not changing, I would not be changing either.  If the rest of the universe were not changing in the way it is, then I would not be changing in the way I am.   That is how I feel "cornered" by the whole universe.


Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


8 posted 01-09-2006 03:31 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


A man said to the universe:
"Sir I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."


Stephen Crane

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


9 posted 01-09-2006 04:32 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Man said back:

"Where is God's or man's creation
If not created in thee?
You have a sense of obligation
Because you have it in me!"

[This message has been edited by Essorant (01-09-2006 10:16 PM).]

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


10 posted 01-10-2006 05:24 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Stephanos,

It may help to think of it this way.

Everything is part of the universe, God, angels, animals, gods, humans, dreams, truths, lies, etc.  We as humans are part of the universe, therefore as much might as we possibly have over ourselves is only still a part, included with anything else that may have any might or influence upon us.  Therefore our might over us + the might the rest of the universe has over us inevitablly means more might than just the might we have over ourselves.  The whole universe including the might we have over ourselves, is more might than we have over ourselves, but that doesn't mean our might over ourselves isn't more than the might of the rest of the universe over us.    But at the same time that doesn't mean that the rest of the universe may not ever have more might over us. It literally and figuratively seems to depend on what shape we are in      

[This message has been edited by Essorant (01-10-2006 08:36 PM).]

hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


11 posted 01-10-2006 05:42 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Why the word cornered? If my friend calls and invites me out, I don't feel cornered by her, even if I had not been previously considering going out. Having to make a choice doesn't necessarily mean you are cornered...
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


12 posted 01-10-2006 06:45 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Hush,

Whatever might and influences she has upon you, in conjunction with the might and influence you have over yourself, in further conjunction with the  might and influence anything and everything else has, "corners" you into your choice.   It's the whole universe again.  That doesn't mean that you didn't get to excercise the most amount of might regarding that choice, but in the end it was everything altogether--the whole universe--that cornered you into that choice.   Do you see what I mean?         

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


13 posted 01-10-2006 07:34 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Essorant,

What makes you think you are not cornered by the whole universe into being and doing everything you are?

The lack of evidence to the contrary,

If you were to say Im obliged to be who I am and do what I do by my own universe (or everything I am) I think Id agree with you.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


14 posted 01-11-2006 01:34 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"If you were to say Im obliged to be who I am and do what I do by my own universe (or everything I am) I think Id agree with you."

I didn't mean one isn't obliged by oneself, but that one is obliged by himself and by the rest of the universe, and therefore the whole universe---

Oneself + the rest of the universe = the whole universe.  

Choice + the rest of the universe = the whole universe.

Obligation + the rest of the universe = the whole universe.

You can't get away.  You are universally cornered    

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


15 posted 01-11-2006 07:09 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

What does gravity do for me Ess?
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


16 posted 01-11-2006 10:08 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

LR,

It influences you.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


17 posted 01-12-2006 08:14 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi



Crown Prince Sultan Bin Abdel Aziz told reporters the kingdom had "spared no effort" to avoid such disasters but, he added, "it cannot stop what God has preordained. It is impossible."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,181406,00.html


Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


18 posted 01-13-2006 08:10 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


By your reasoning how is Hitler
or a child molester not absolved?
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


19 posted 01-14-2006 08:51 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Huan Yi

The whole including us determines us more than we determine ourselves alone.

But the part within that whole that determines us most is ourselves.    We are the highest government of ourselves.

God, the sun, the earth, the moon, gravity, plants, animals, and many other things sustain conditions needful for life and might, but they don't live our lives or wield our might for us.


Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


20 posted 01-14-2006 11:41 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Seems you're changing course . . .

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


21 posted 01-14-2006 04:53 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Do the below sayings contradict each other?  If so, why?


* The whole universe wholly determines the whole universe.

* The whole universe wholly determines a part of the universe.

* A part of the universe partly determines the whole universe.

* A part of the universe partly determines a part of the universe.

hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


22 posted 01-16-2006 05:15 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

So, the universe dictates me more than I dictate myself, but I dictate myself more than the universe dictates me?

...?

I don't buy it. This just sounds like a fancy way of saying we are influenced by the world around us.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


23 posted 01-17-2006 12:11 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

We determine us partly because we are part of the universe, but more than any other part, because every other part determines that too and accomodates it.  Our might is given lodging and accomodation by all the rest of the universe.  It determines our might.  Without it we may not have such might.  But with it, we have more might over ourself than our "accomodations" have over us, but that is still dependant on them accomodating it.  

The whole universe wholly determines us.  

The rest of the universe determines us least.

And we determine us most within the whole that wholly determines us, more than the rest of the universe, but less than the whole, because the whole includes us and the rest of the universe.  


Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


24 posted 01-17-2006 12:15 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Gravity gives me constraints, boundaries.  It influences particle behavior, gathers together molecules into planets and stars.  I can choose to look at my constraints and boundaries as limitations -- or I can choose to see them as definitions.

Without boundaries, we have no definition.  So it's a matter of perspective.  Are we cornered by the universe?  Yes.  In a nice safe corner where we can exist and choose.  Some non-linear random events over which we have little or no control will affect us either adversely or beneficially -- bad luck, good luck.  

Other events we will have varying degrees of control over.  On the histogram -- there will be more of the events we can influence in the middle with 'lucky' events on either end.  

Between reasonable luck and skillful choices we get by alright.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> Cornered   [ Page: 1  2  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors