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Crime and Punishment

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Local Rebel
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0 posted 07-21-2004 12:50 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

So you want the law to encourage a higher good.  How?  If you want to use the 'law' to do that then you must needs determine how you will enforce it.  With every new law there is an entire new species of criminal.  How do we punish them?

Scarlet Letters?

Ante up.  You have to do more than say 'there oughta be a law.'
Essorant
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1 posted 07-21-2004 01:51 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Respectfully and Protectively.  

If law shows man his presence shall always be respected and protected no matter what he says or does, I believe that man shall trust more and surrender and learn better honestly with law.  Every man is always higher than his words and deeds no matter how high or low those go, and deserves to be treated even in punishment as highly and postively as possible, despite whatever low and negative conditions he fell down to.  No men should be treated like the objects of their sayings or doings--their behavior--or as locked forever into one behavior that happened or happens.  For every man is a wielder of a will, government in himself, and capable to change and deserving of forgiveness.  This is just something of approach I believe in.  Punishment to me, is never right if not respectful or protective, if it treats a criminal as if his or her presence deserves to be condemned or punished or removed, when truly that is addressing the crime, not the criminal.  The criminal needs to be righted, even though he wronged, defended even though he offended, spoken too even though he never listened, shown mercy even though he never showed mercy, because what ever he said or did, that is not what he is.  He is a man, and every man has life and  honour that deserve to be respected and protected.
Toerag
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2 posted 07-21-2004 12:16 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

There awta be a law about questions like this...But, I agree with ya...every law breeds a new kinda criminal....(I'm personally an old criminal still breaking old laws)..but, I do think there should be more emphasis on the victim. We just throw the criminal in jail....I think there should be work done, with pay, and all go to the victim...as for "victimless" crimes...they should be made to work to pay for their room and board and cable tv etc....for those that can't do manual labor etc. for health reasons...then they should be able to do something constructive to pay their way....As for violent crimes etc., quick trial, quick sentence...spend a buck on a bullet and get rid of them.....on national tv.....No, I'm not harsh, just burnt out on all the money, time and crap that goes on these days and the lack of our judicial system to act appropriately....so, lets go get a beer and some illicit stuff and read the paper...ya wanna?
Sunshine
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3 posted 07-21-2004 02:05 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

I'm your Mother.  Behave!...
Or I'll have to get your Father!!

~*~

Hmmm...seems like that's not used enough...but it would be nice if MORE parents got back to basics...

I'm *poof!*
jbouder
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4 posted 07-21-2004 02:21 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

I agree with Toe to the extent that I believe the law should provide a means of redress for someone harmed by the intentional or neglegent acts of another ... a sort of corrective justice model.

But I also think certain branches of the law are not well-suited for this approach, requiring an analysis of the impact certain behavior has on the public.  Regulation can be a good thing when it promotes the public interest.  Potential risks to health, safety, and well-being are often the standards used when enforcing such laws (e.g., coming to a complete stop at a stop sign).  

"Justness and reasonableness" is another standard often applied to situations involving potential the potential economic impact of certain behavior on the public (e.g., is a utility company's proposed 30% rate increase just, reasonable, and in the public interest).

Harm is usually pretty easy to grasp ... where the fuzzy line of the other standards is drawn is often fiercely litigated.

To answer your question, I think the standard we use and the punishment we prescribe to violating a new law will differ from circumstance to circumstance.  Do you happen to have an example in mind?

For my fellow insomniacs ...  http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/tort-theories/
Essorant
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5 posted 07-21-2004 05:16 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Truly I don't see a need for more outer laws right now.  But a grave need for more morals- inner laws and government- everywhere in society.  This may only be reared most truly thro greater influence, not harsher forcement.

The immoderation of overbusy outer laws is part of what occassions deficiency and sloth of morals today.  We become so dependant and busy in the combustion of outer enforcements, that we begin to forget the inner "enforcements" or think/expect  the outer forcements shall do it all.   But the two I believe must balance and support each other, or it shall fall over for great falsity and lopsidedness.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (07-21-2004 06:50 PM).]

Toerag
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6 posted 07-21-2004 05:37 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Essorant....Morality?...Are you crazy?...You can't legitate morality...why Gay marriage is okay now-a-days...didn't you know that?..You can't have "God" in schools anymore..are you nuts?...Look at TV, Queer Eye For the dumb guy" or whatever...Ellen on at night....Morals are the last thing we need these days....Abortion yes....at any stage should be okay...didn't you know that this is the liberal way and the right way?..We have a devout Catholic that's running for president that's 100% FOR this way of thinking...Good grief...I can't believe you think we need more morals..Geesch!!!! Where you been boy?...We need to join the bandwagon...get on board boy.....just don't let your wife look back "Lot" unless ya need some more salt....
Essorant
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7 posted 07-21-2004 07:45 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

When you take the table from under its setting, the setting shall fall and break on a hard floor.


Local Rebel
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8 posted 07-21-2004 09:30 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well let's reference, Jim, this statement made by Brian elsewhere,
quote:

It is the law's responsibility to look out for the well-being of all its citizens.



If we take a look at the phrasing in the Constitution "promote the general welfare" -- he presents a rather agressive interpretation.  What is 'general' and what is specific?

Ron's already attempted to show him what the limitations of government are (and should be) but it is an interesting point.  Mainly because liberals will interpret 'general welfare' as issues of social justice where Conservatives usually interpret it in terms of legislating 'morality'.

An interesting program that I hope will be avialable for viewing again was PBS's Colonial House -- where a small colony (corporate-backed not pilgrim style) was formed and persons had to live in the exact manner of early settlers.  

A fundamentalist Baptist minister was chosen to be the governor of the colony -- he started out with intentions of building the shining city on a hill -- but soon found himself mired in the distasteful labor of having to do things like enforce church attenance on the Sabbath.  Also justice had to meted out to those who used profanity and just about every other dimension of existence.

He tired of it quickly and against the rules of the experiment abolished some of the laws he was supposed to enforce. (which were interestingly the only ones being broken.  Spending time on enforcing these laws actually harmed the general welfare of the colony because it was disrupting the commercial aims of the corporation as well as disrupting the families and community.)

What are our expectations of government though in the 21st Century?  If a person thinks the law needs to encourage or 'look after' individuals best interest -- how?

Karilea brings in the interesting point that everyone can immediately see the mistakes other parents are making with their kids -- and I have some neighbors across the street I could tell you stories about -- but where is the line?

If the government does get into the business of legislating morality -- where then is the Conservative cry?  Smaller government -- government doesn't do anything well?
Essorant
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9 posted 07-21-2004 11:43 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Will you take a look this thread again.  http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum8/HTML/000438.html

I thought my own feelings about some of these matters came out there better than they may ever come out again; even though it is not very specifically on topic, I think it is very generally important.  Everyone that participated there made that thread a most interesting discussion I felt.  Take a look if you have time.  Bring back some memories (and some old headaches!   )
Stephanos
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10 posted 07-22-2004 12:47 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
If the government does get into the business of legislating morality



"Legislating morality" is such an ambiguous term, seeing that some amount of morality is bound inseperably to law.  Value judgements and determining what is "right", and what are national goals all have moral implications.  So in one sense the government has always been involved in moral decisions.  I think it's pretty arbitrary to pick out something that you don't happen to agree with and slur it as "legislating morality".  


How morally loaded is the following statement, which can be translated into law, negatively or positively? ...


"It's wrong to impose morals on others by law".


See the contradiction?


Stephen.


Stephanos
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11 posted 07-22-2004 12:53 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
An interesting program that I hope will be avialable for viewing again was PBS's Colonial House -- where a small colony (corporate-backed not pilgrim style) was formed and persons had to live in the exact manner of early settlers. 


BTW, I did see this program.  It was a typical expression of the political left in an educational guise (in my opinion).  It was more bent on chiding absolutist views, than actually being an informational show concerning what life was really like back then.  But that's not at all unusual for PBS.


Stephen.

LeeJ
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12 posted 07-22-2004 03:11 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I'm agreeing whole heartidly with Toe

If you do the crime, you do the time...and Sunshine, your comment was invigorating as well....can you imagine "us" getting away with what kids get away with today, or even criminals for that matter.

I'm adding one more thing to this...what really grabs my heart and heats my entire being is the sexual abuse cases in the church, and everyone is walking around making excuses for it..what about the children??????  Im' telling you, God as my witness, the church is now turning around and suing anyone coming forward with testimony that they have been sexually abused as a child??????

You know, we people who still believe in obeying the law are becoming minorities....really, think about it.

And anyone who kills like that guy on the subway a few years back in New York, who killed a number of people and there were witnesses, hang em!

Sorry, the ol gal here is becoming more intollerent of the moneymongers defending these guys and getting them off.  

Crime has to be addressed immensly...and I'm deeply passionate about this, b/c my cousin's store was robed, they pushed her to the floor with their feet, held her there, with a gun at her head....and no one knows the fear she suffered and They get out in another year???????

If you have been a victum of sexual abuse, or a crime of anykind, believe me...it changes views....drastically and your not so liberal in your thinking.  

I refuse to go to church anymore...I'm tired of the hipocrasy.  

There is no fear of a consequence for crime...and more and more children are becoming uncontrollable and that statement Guns kill people...NOT

People Kill people...I grew up with guns in my house, and never once had the desire to touch them, as a child, or unlock them, play with them...etc.

Why, because I knew if I did, I'd be dead!  heheheh, just kidding, but in all seriousness, the consequence of that would have been most severe and I'm so thankful I grew up that way, so thankful I was spanked a few times, and so thankful, I was kept under a strick hand.

My name is Lee J. and I approve this message

LeeJ
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13 posted 07-22-2004 03:18 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I forgot to add, this entire issue is a decrease in sensible and moral education.
I really believe this country is way to uneducated!
Sunshine
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14 posted 07-22-2004 04:25 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Reb, my tongue-in-cheek reply was, of course, way too simplified for the in-depth conversations that go on in here, and while I was, in short, bringing up what I believe to be a part of the crux of the problem, it still did not give the levity that I thought it would and was probably bypassed by most.

But if we don't start with the basics, where, then?

Look at what the children are subjected to in the news.  People of some high calibre means by both financial and social status and roles are in so many ways, breaking the laws that have been established for quite SOME time now.  And I'm talking moral as well as fundamental, legislatively controlled laws.

Then we have the "all about me" generation.  So many have forgotten, or haven't been taught, or don't have a full understanding of the full responsibility of raising children.  They're just as inclined to let someone else do it.  There's a recent commercial take on actors/stars coming forward and we know all about them, but we don't know who sits behind Johnny in class.  This is much too true.

As for the punishment of those who have committed crimes, their financial backing [read regality] should not hold a candle in how punishment is meted out. The same rules should apply for all.  Popularity should NOT be part of the criteria in order to see the full irresponsibility of the criminal.

Oh, if I were elected president...

But truthfully, I think not only does it re-start and re-generate with the family nucleus, but those same parents who feel as you and I might, should be the ones who are in the schools and in the systems, taking that basic belief in there with them...this is RIGHT....this is WRONG.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to get back to basics.

That we will have folks arguing about their "rights", well, sometimes we just have to cut it, once again, back down to the basics.  And sometimes throwing in, "is that how your Mom and Dad raised you?" couldn't hurt, either.
Juju
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15 posted 07-22-2004 07:18 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Will this all goes to my favorite quote

"Man are not angels"- from one of those guys that quote the constitution. There are always going to be bad and good. I like to think of it to be a ying and yang. I have faith in people, but one the other hand I also know no matter what there is no way to not do something. Things are probable. It just takes something to happen before poeple realize reality......crimanals adapt.

Juju
Sunshine
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16 posted 07-22-2004 08:28 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

JuJu...here is an excerpt that contains your quote:  
quote:
In Federalist 51, James Madison explained the relationship between the state of nature and government by raising the following question: “But what is government itself but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary.” If men were angels – that is, if men were wholly good and wholly reasonable – there would be no need for government, because every man would behave morally and would respect the rights of others without government or law. But men are not angels. In addition to his reason, man possesses selfish passions, and sometimes men will follow their passions and hurt other men. Thus there is a need for some way to restrain those selfish passions. The answer is government. The need for government stems from human nature itself, by the fact that humans by nature are not wholly good, but capable of both good and evil. The purpose of government is to encourage the good tendencies of human nature, and discourage or regulate the bad. As Madison wrote in Federalist 49, “the reason of the public alone ought to control and regulate the government,” but in turn the government ought to control and regulate “the passions” of the people.
See, http://www.pbs.org/georgewashington/classroom/theory1_2.html  
(Emphasis added.)
Madison's theory, "The purpose of government is to encourage the good tendencies of human nature, and discourage or regulate the bad." Hence, punishment for man's crimes over his uncontrollable need to follow his passions.

Governments in most instances, throughout history, have failed in some aspect.  WE as a people [the common man who stands on the Right of crime] tend to feel that we can still bring our country around.

I don't think we're wrong.  We just have to remind the politicians that we have such a voice.

A side note.  The quote "men are not angels" is also attributed to Jefferson.
rwood
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17 posted 07-23-2004 10:58 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

"With every new law there is an entire new species of criminal."

I absolutely agree with that statement and would like to add a few more elements to it:

New species of lawyers, judges, and technologically advanced profiling of juries.

Seems to me that no matter what the law is, or the punishment standards, there are undermining powers that will chip away at the foundation of justice, there is psychological warfare against those willing to try and uphold the laws or pursue justice on their own behalf, and there are law firm Juggernauts who will buy or manipulate a verdict at any cost.

The common person’s values seem pithy with cheese cloth wrapping when up against all of that.

If you can make it past all of that, and still pursue the root of justice, and the case hasn't been reduced to a plea bargain and a diet Coke, then you might actually be sitting in a courtroom where the case is really being tried.

But what about the accused? I’m not talking about habitual criminals, or hard evidence. I’m talking about those arrested for questioning or under allegations. The media prints and airs anything that will gain a reader or listener–Fact or fiction. Which causes neighborhood block parties to plot out ostracization. Job loss is inevitable. And every social gathering or mundane public outing becomes a social jury of peers.

All that before the court date is set. Guilty before proven innocent?

I value human rights. I value the law, I value human kindness, strong ethics, education, principles and all things that promote a higher good, but I will never be perfect, nor will the world. And we can see how our rights are being trespassed daily.

I think that before we see the punishment fitting the crimes, we will have to see a judicial system fit for trying the cases.

Meanwhile, we do have to try and give our children the best raising we can possibly muster. But don’t think for a second that some criminal, no matter what kind of suit or attire they cloak themselves in, won’t dare try to destroy someone you love. If only we could protect the little ones from ever becoming easy prey. I don’t know of any punishment fitting of such, or law that would ever protect them all. And then you have the senseless act of children killing children. What law could ever prevent or correct that?

Sincerely,
Reg

LeeJ
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18 posted 07-23-2004 11:26 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

AUTHOR: Alfred North Whitehead (1861–1947)

QUOTATION: In the conditions of modern life the rule is absolute, the race which does not value trained intelligence is doomed. Not all your heroism, not all your social charm, not all your wit, not all your victories on land or at sea, can move back the finger of fate. To-day we maintain ourselves. To-morrow science will have moved forward yet one more step, and there will be no appeal from the judgment which will then be pronounced on the uneducated.

Adding...moral education included.

In my youth, I cannot ever remember a story of a child killing another child...perhaps I was raised in a very naieve town?  

I cannot imagine the complete dispair of any victim's family...

It has become essential to shake and wake this country up for when your government is corrupt, so to will be it's people.  We really do need to do some substantial spring cleaning.
Sunshine
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19 posted 07-23-2004 11:32 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Regina said,
quote:
I think that before we see the punishment fitting the crimes, we will have to see a judicial system fit for trying the cases.

I could not agree with you more.  In order for this to happen, we need a moratorium on media.  UNLESS REQUESTED BY THE POLICE, no media exploitation of civil/criminal events should be published until the proper authorities are ready to take this to trial.  Some of you may know, but others may be completely unaware, of the number of people required to fill jury panels just to get 12 people that have no knowledge of a case before trial.

There are a few times the media should be requested to interact immediately with the authorities.  Amber Law comes to mind.  Another type of event would be when it comes to terrorist activities, i.e., the bombing of the OK Federal Center.  

Sigh.  I know I simplify things too much.  But the media does take some very obscure facts at times, and swiss hole it with too much conjecture and speculation.
Essorant
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20 posted 07-23-2004 01:04 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Law may never be adequate without moral strength, or moralness adequate without lawful strength.  
Either the two meet in one great timber, or become very weak and unsteady characters on their own.
Ron
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21 posted 07-23-2004 01:11 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
There are a few times the media should be requested to interact immediately with the authorities.  Amber Law comes to mind.  Another type of event would be when it comes to terrorist activities, i.e., the bombing of the OK Federal Center.

How about when another Rodney King is being "arrested," Karilea? Should we wait for the police to request media coverage of those events?

The Fourth Estate is far from perfect. Like a nasty Doberman wandering acre after acre of rusting metal and discarded junk, it often turns its ferocity on the innocents who venture too near, it digs holes where we really didn't want holes, and it has to be fed and watered even when we're comfortable there's no fear of intrusion. Far from perfect.

But still the best watch dog we have. Put our dog on a leash, even for the best of reasons, and you can be sure the junk yard will soon be overrun with pillagers.
Sunshine
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22 posted 07-23-2004 01:26 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

All comments, theories, hypothesis, etc., will have holes poked in them, Ron.  I knew there would be past events brought forward as stated above that my mind hadn't brought back up from the pits of humanity...and that another instance like that might occur is around the corner, I'm sure.

I guess what is most frustrating to me, pragmatic soul that I am, is that we fail daily to hear of the really GOOD things that happen in life.     Because Good just doesn't seem to sell tabloids.

How about this.  How about just getting the initial reporting of facts - no conjecture...and let the matter lay until it can be brought to court?
Local Rebel
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23 posted 07-25-2004 03:53 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

By all means, talk about what interests you.  I'm glad to see the level of participation and I don't want to quash conversation.  

However.. topic has strayed a bit from my intent -- maybe no one gets it.

Let me put it a couple of other ways.

Illegal, immoral, fattening.  There are differences... what are they and why?  If you were president.. or better still.. king... what would you move from the immoral realm into the illegal?  How would you enforce it?  What would the punishment be?  How would you fund it?

There are ten commandments.  Only two are part of law.  What sets them apart from the others?
Essorant
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24 posted 07-26-2004 03:53 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Car Moderation (Act and Law)

(edited and amended)

The number of vehicles people have and that are in the city is in great excess.  

The new Essorant government shall institute a new act and a law to moderate car owning, based on city's size and population,  living conditions and people in a household.   Cars at dealerships no more shall be displayed above ground.  The numbers therof shall be reduced to few representative and be displayed under ground that they don't take up our surfaceland.  Most cars shall be purchased by book or by computer.  In other words one shall   view pictures and details of cars in a book or on the computer, or at the carselling-house and then deal with the seller to the order the car they will.  
One man or woman shall only be allowed to buy one car for him/herself. But he or she may reason for another car.  If he proves it truly need to have two cars for self alone then he/she may.  But as a need it must be purpose-approved.  Cars aren't toys therefore they should not be bought or sold like them.
With this shall be also a reduction of gas-stations, and parking lots;  and we move to roof and underground parking lots at greater places such as shopping mall to preserve landscapes.  Where large parking lots were, now shall be more grassland and sitting areas simply for space, and peace and quiet; or areas for public-speaking, singing, preaching, dancing, etc.  

What happens when a second and unapproved car is found in your possessions?   The government keeps track of the car(s) you have, therefore if they find out that you somehow managed to have a second car after the date of this not approved as needful possession, then government seizes that and gives you a set amount of money for it.

In the spirit of this, Taxi systems shall also be greatly improved.  One fleet shall be employed and called the First Fleet and in this fleet every driver shall be a trained and formal security guard, knowledgeable in CPR and first aid, and emergency driving and have the right to use a siren in an emergency like an ambulance; furthermore if he or she sees someone commiting a criminal act has the right to arrest that person and take her/him to the police forthwith.  This service shall drive 24 hours a day and for the normal prices.  They shall do special services such as deliveries; taking in groceries; and shall keep extra security over the city.   But another team shall be the The Second Fleet that shall be more "ordinary", and less strict, but still specially employed and trained in driving professionally.  They shall charge much smaller prices than normal and work far less often.  These shall be good for younger people that just need a drive to scool or to the mall.  
Thus no man should be forced to use a car because other modes are too expensive or not as reliable; in fact overall the other modes shall try to be better than individually owning a car for oneself for the people in the tjese modes shall be more "professional" altogether and very thoroughly trained in driving.  Thus less man shall buy cars because the taxi service shall be more worth his money, but at the same time he shall most probably not use the service so often that he will not use his own feet, or bike, perhaps more often as well.

Additionally with these changes a greater Car-Renting service shall be in promotion over car-owning,   and people shall feel much more inclined to "rent" a car for a period that is taken care of and replaced when it should be by the government than own and replace a car by self.  It shall benefit people very much more, offer more, and reduce the neglectfulness, as one shall be obligated to treat the car as best as possible or he shall no longer be able to own or rent a car.


 
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