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Passions in Poetry

On The General State of Things

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Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
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0 posted 07-17-2003 12:54 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Do you feel well of the general direction and prospect of individuals, socialness, and the world?  
Are we losing or gaining a better moral civilization?  
Are we giving enough saving to natural states and integrity of things?  Are we controlling our birth and populations well enough for to feel enough space, privacy and solace?  What do you think of how sexualities are today?  Do you feel people are avoiding perversity enough?  Do people understand tenderness better?
What do you most appreciate of this modern life and business, and what do you think most needs ammendment or restoration?  
Imagine you were Monarch/ess of the world for one day and could have your say and do your will on everything, what would you have?
I'm sorry to plague you with questions, but I am really doubtful and would really appreciate hearing your judgement.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (07-17-2003 02:57 AM).]

Magia_negra
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1 posted 07-19-2003 06:51 PM       View Profile for Magia_negra   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magia_negra

Essorant, your questions are so-o general!
Interesting of course, i'll definitely come back to it later,


...somos los locos para siempre
para siempre te amo
   mi vida...

Magia_negra
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since 07-16-2003
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2 posted 07-19-2003 07:31 PM       View Profile for Magia_negra   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magia_negra

All right...

Everybody sees this world from his/her own perspective.
Me… I see myself as a warrior on the way I've taken.
I was born in an East European country, lived for some time in Russia, then moved here to LA. I've seen different cultures.

Some people think we are degrading.
Dark side of life can shock you if you look at it from the inside.

I walk down the streets and see people smoking weed in the corners, selling all kinds of stuff - guns, drugs… I hear helicopters flying above my house at night and drive by shootings two blocks away from my house. I have friends who've been in the gangs. I see homeless people all over the place, I see mothers with their five-six… seven children and gigantic bags full of products bought in 99cents store. I know some of these women get pregnant just in order to get welfare. Here is our morality, to get paid for having children, but what else can they do?! Their husbands work for a minimum wage. There is no way for them to get out of the hole because of the language, problems with papers, etc (Sorry, I am talking about immigrants now, mostly Mexicans, because I live among them). The amazing thing is despite all this misery I see happiness in people's faces. Those living in poverty look happier than those who I meet in "good" areas.

Free country. Is it? Brainwashing will be always successful; media steels our minds.

Personal freedom. Do I feel free? Or protected? I saw a Chinese girl in the subway today. She was eating something in a to-go box when the police officer came and told her she couldn't eat down there. He started questioning her, wrote down her ID information. The girl could barely speak English. She got really scared. How could she know about the law telling us not to eat in the subway if she came to this country maybe just a couple of weeks ago? I watched that scene with disgust. A couple of minutes later I got off at Macarthur Park, downtown LA. While I was walking down the street there, seven, maybe ten guys came to me offering fake IDs, Social Security cards, diplomas for a funny price - 30, 40 bucks. Business goes really well. And, trust me, you'll never find the police in Macarthur park. You can get raped right there on the street and there won't be any police to help you. Now, who do you think I'll go for help if I am in trouble? To the police? I don't think so. In this corrupted inverted world I don't trust them. I do not feel secure in this world. To tell you the truth I trust people on the streets more. I am my own protector. When I am out there I never know if I am gonna come back. And the only one who can help me is I.
There are several people who I could trust with my life though. Are they perfect? No. Some people would say they are the "bad" guys. I love them. Am I moral? People on the other side don't think I am moral because the ideas I have about life differ from the society ideas in too many ways. How could it happen that I am standing here and looking at the society stereotypes with contempt? I think our society is a monster. I am really sorry for those who got captured by it. Before I used to care about people's opinions a lot, I was afraid to be judged or misunderstood, or laughed at… Now I express myself freely and feel happy about it. The price for my freedom was high - I've lost many so-called "friends." I don't regret it. Now I know who my real friends are - people who accept me the way I am, good and bad, people who will be beside me always, people to whom I can come in happiness or pain. We are not free until we realize that we live trying to be something else, something our friends, or parents, or co-workers want us to be.  
Churches are corrupted (as they always were). What can they teach us if they cannot live in peace and harmony with each other fighting over some little things? They interpret the bible in different ways. It is ridiculous.
I am for marijuana legalization and I am not ashamed to say it. If I say it in public you can imagine what happens. It doesn't matter if I try to explain why I am for marijuana legalization, people stop listening to me the very moment I say it. I just don't exist for them any more. Does my opinion make me a bad person? Moral civilization in which nobody listens to your opinion just because it is different…
Another thing… I am in love with the person who is, how would I put it… Who is not the one you would like your daughter to marry. What can I do if I am in love with the guy? I don't really care about morality or about what people think about him. I cannot imagine my life without this person.
People just amaze me sometimes. I work eight-hour shift in a restaurant. I don't have even five minutes break to eat or to sit down. You cannot eat during your shift, my manager says, you cannot make phone calls. Then he sees me pouring alcohol in the bar and says I cannot do it because I am not 21, it is illegal. Isn't it illegal to work for eight hours without break also, I ask him? He cares about law when it comes to pouring vines, it doesn't really bother him that my feet hurt or that I am starving.
A couple of days ago one guy told me he feels like a street dog. Those words made me feel really bad. To hear this from anybody is really scary. What is our world if a person feels like a street dog living in it?!

I know I am not answering your question. It's all very mixed up. I am confused about morality. Do I feel comfortable in this world? Yes, pretty comfortable. There are a lot of beautiful things you can enjoy. Many things make me angry, but I don't think people became worse then they used to be before.
Politics make me angry. I cannot judge them because I am not that good at politics, but…

Young guys who come to US from Mexico find easy money here. They can afford buying drugs - something they couldn't do back there because it was too expensive. Today I was talking with a friend of mine about it and he told me he feels really worried and sorry about those seventeen-eighteen-year-old kids. He sees them working, drinking, smoking, talking about nothing, picking up girls… Some of them cannot read even in Spanish, leave alone English…. Where is it gonna lead? They come to this country because there are no chances for them back there, but instead of going to school, doing something, growing morally, they end up in the gangs. Not everybody is like that, I told him. You are in college; you care about your future… Where was my friend when he was seventeen living in Mexico DF? He did crazy things. He changed. Some people are able to get out of the mess and go on, some stay there, live fast and die young. Why does it happen so and who is responsible, our society or people themselves? I don't know. How can I judge these guys who don't care about anything? How can I make them change if they don't care? They are not bad people. In fact, they are better than some of well-educated people I know. When I spend time with them I see they have tender hearts and beautiful souls. They respect women. They enjoy simple things. Most of us forgot how to enjoy simple things, we all have big plans in our heads, nothing else matters…It hurts seeing them going down. I realize if they don't stop this self-destruction it is gonna be too late.  

Sex… it's a difficult one. I see sex as the union of two beautiful beings, physically and spiritually. I do believe in real love forever but it doesn't stop me from fooling around. I know I'll find it one day and it will be the happiest day in my life. I am a very open minded person, I think as long as what people do doesn't harm others it is acceptable.

Yes, I feel tenderness in people.
I feel people love each other. I mean people in everyday life. We wouldn't last for so long if we didn't love each other. Sometimes I feel a lot of aggression from people around me. I don't get angry with them. I just go away. Those who are mad with the whole world and full of hatred are not worth to be with.


You know, I could go on and on so I'd rather stop,

The one thing I'd like to change… people's attitude to each other. People judge too much.

...somos los locos para siempre
para siempre te amo
   mi vida...

Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
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3 posted 07-19-2003 10:05 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Cuando amor no es locura, no es amor.
(When love is not madness, it is not love.)
--Spanish Proverb

Poverty is a great enemy to human happiness; it certainly destroys liberty, and it makes some virtues impracticable, and others extremely difficult.
--Samuel Johnson

These are the two quotes that came to my mind as I read you Magia -- many more things too-- but my main reaction is I found your words strangely vindicating -- not because I've lived that life but because I've always felt it somehow.

While there is nothing profoundly new in your observations it is a contemporaneous perspective that is an authentic and well versed testimony.

This power should serve you well as a poet.

As to the thread topic -- the world has always been on it's way to hell.
Brad
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4 posted 07-20-2003 09:12 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

The world is on its way to hell, but QM explains heaven.
Local Rebel
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5 posted 07-20-2003 10:59 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Ok Brad -- My brain is still protesting my blood sugar levels this morning -- a little bit on the slow side (ok.. so that's nothing new)

QM?
Ron
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6 posted 07-20-2003 11:34 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Quantum mechanics?
Essorant
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7 posted 07-20-2003 10:53 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Magia

I share many of your feelings; you are very strong-speaking.  
I only oppose giving in though and accepting a lower lifestyle and society than we deserve.  
Freedom and accumulation are now pursued, put more important than government and cultivation/edification.  Technology is worshiped more than nature, integrity and religion.  Luxury is pursued more than beauty.  Vice is often preferred over virtue--Perversity, hedonism and decadance  over modesty.   Offhand happiness pursued over sufferable, noble wellbeing.  Business is put above civilization.  Haste and excess are practiced more than patience and moderation.  And then we pray for peace?  These things are what put us into poverties and miseries often.  If there is a God, he is giving us our due desert. I always have tried most to make choices and judgements  based on  healthiness, naturalness and respectfulness; and therewith imagine these influencing society and the world.  If I don't think it would be good for society and the world generally, I usually shall never make the choice, even though it may be just for me and only seem to influence me specifically here.  I I am offended that people are making such perverse choices today as if they are not influencing society and the world-as if for some reasons they are exempt and don't count.  What you do in the background, private and unseen, is still part of society and the world...because you have been influenced, and what influences you is what you part of what you are and shall  influence from.  People think they can be moral but do perverse things, as if the moral knowledge justifies the perverse doing...or that as long as they are moral in the right places and ends, they can be perverse in between...this makes the personality ill, morality and perversion become confounded.  When venom and ambrosia are so mixed you cannot taste the difference between them.  I just feel things must be generally well or feel they are at least bettering or how can we do things specifically within them?  I know I will not...if things don't get better I shall stay in my house and never come out.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (07-21-2003 12:46 AM).]

Magia_negra
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8 posted 07-21-2003 02:18 AM       View Profile for Magia_negra   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magia_negra

I agree with you, Essorant.
Hmm, I don't think our silence and inactivity will make us feel better or change the outside world for better though… I know our time is not the time of rebels, and I don't pretend to be one, I guess I am not strong enough (who knows though, in reality we are much stronger than we think).
Do you think it is possible for things to get better without any radical changes or events? For example, some people think the US is gonna face a big catastrophe soon - financial crisis, political changes, revolution, whatever it is… something that will bring this empire to the end. I don't support or oppose this opinion although I think nothing can exist forever. Do we have to destroy in order to build (to die in order to be reborn in the upper level of existence)? This is a scary thought.
  

...somos los locos para siempre
para siempre te amo
   mi vida...

Stephanos
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9 posted 07-22-2003 12:08 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant,

Your spate of concern seems to ask in a nutshell, is this World getting better or worse.  It seems to be getting worse in many ways, and yet it has always been "bad".  There has always been moral atrocity, brutalism, apathy, and injustice.  But now man's technological intelligence has caught up with his moral decadence, making the stakes much higher.   Threatening nuclear holocaust, biological warfare, and increased moral decay attests to the exacerbation, if not the novelty, of the problem.  Biblically, this is the path of humanity in a defunct relationship with God.  The Bible tells us that, though God has provided a life raft, and there are rumours of a new ship, the old ship will not be saved.  It's disturbing and scary in a way, but there is a great promise of restoration to those who are willing to listen and believe.  That's why I am for all the help we can get, through social change, politics, humanitarian programs, etc... etc... But I still think that the only hope for this world that will prevail against physical, moral, and spiritual entropy is an eschatological one involving direct divine intervention.


Brad,

By associating QM with an explanation of "Heaven", are you referring to some kind of neo-pantheism?  I've read alot about the strange bedfellows of quantum physics and eastern religions.  Just curious if this is what you are hinting at.

Stephen.


    

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (07-22-2003 12:18 AM).]

Brad
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10 posted 07-22-2003 04:10 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Entropy will bring heat death to the universe, but quantum mechanics guarantees a new universe at some point down the road, a new order. Why not call it Heaven?

It'll take a long time but if no one's around that's a small matter.

There is a bulbous swelling to the left of my mouth as a result of my tongue.



Essorant
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11 posted 07-23-2003 03:02 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Do you think it is possible for things to get better without any radical changes or events?

Yes; but I think we need to be radical -"rootical"- at this point, yet in being radical we don't need to be extreme, violent or eraticating.  
There is a better way of changing the crop and getting to the roots and it is I believe in influencing us. The highest government must be within us.  We must be able to influence and displine us not to force but feel morals more willingly and sincerely, and make the choice for a life more moral and less perverse.  Morals should not be like forces but like instincts that senses would seem to already have to decline substantially what we know is wrong, especially the kind of haste and excess of things that is occassioning too much violence today.  We need to sincerely realize we need to stand up for our lives better, our society and our world.   We are all responsible.  It is how we govern our natures that governs our futures, and though we cannot fully govern them, yet can we be displined and knowledgable so that we can always have our best power over them, as the best governers and bodies faithful.  All we need to do is not be perverse but this is a most difficult task.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (07-23-2003 03:19 PM).]

Essorant
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12 posted 07-23-2003 03:12 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"It seems to be getting worse in many ways, and yet it has always been "bad".  There has always been moral atrocity, brutalism, apathy, and injustice."

It has always been bad but it has not always been so aware of itself being "bad."  It is the perversity most of all that wipes my senses out.  We most often know what doings are wrong and bad, but we lack deepness of shame and fear, and the earnest to oppose them most respectfully and faithfully.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (07-23-2003 03:25 PM).]

Brad
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13 posted 07-23-2003 06:10 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."

--Yeats, 1920
hush
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14 posted 07-26-2003 11:50 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

What's perverse?

It's always at the core of the arguments you make, essorant... but you can't adequately define, (or at least, can't universally define) it.
Local Rebel
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15 posted 07-27-2003 01:28 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

heh.. thanks brad

hush -- nice to see you around..
Essorant
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16 posted 07-30-2003 12:26 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"What's perverse?

It's always at the core of the arguments you make, essorant... but you can't adequately define, (or at least, can't universally define) it."

You are too fond of definitions, my friend. Won't you finally take your sense for it, and judge my sense a bit more thence that I am trying to put a-words generally.  There is too much to define.  We can only go a certain length with definitions anyway and they will yet seem to be the smallest part of the truth.  My feelings and interests are I believe to-morals-ward in judging that is healthy, natural, and respectful, and nurturing those
for the good of socialness and the world. And that what declines or makes less health, nature and respect and especially does not try to decline what declines these, is perverse.  
I have my own appetites and deviations but I govern my self in my best power toward what I feel is best socially and worldly...to be healthy, natural and respectful, and yes I for more part I ask the same of others.  
What can we if we cannot at one with each other?  Perverse is against being at one, it puts us against us.  


[This message has been edited by Essorant (07-30-2003 02:17 PM).]

Ron
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17 posted 07-30-2003 06:09 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
And that what declines or makes less health, nature and respect and especially does not try to decline what declines these, is perverse.

Essorant, I think you just defined life. Or, at least, life after about age eighteen? That's roughly the age when the human body can no longer make more cells than are destroyed every day and we all begin that downward spiral called aging.

Come to think of it, at fifty-three, I think I might just agree. It is pretty perverse.
Local Rebel
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18 posted 07-31-2003 12:33 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Maybe it only seems perverse Ron because we try to resist it so much.  When is the rose perfect?  The bud?  The fresh bloom?  When petals fall to the ground?  At every stage the rose fulfills its' design.  It is in the Tao.  It is we that are separated from the universe.  Perhaps that is what is perverse.
Essorant
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19 posted 07-31-2003 12:41 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Yes, I believe much is in the approach.
If we are settled to regard everything as pitched to decrease, and decreasing too rapidly for any relieving, where shall life fare?  There is a youth to every age of life, discovery and restoration to make, new ways of looking and thinking, becoming.  We can either see and feel this or brood upon the to-decay and death-ward aspect of life, and precipitate and catch decay and death probably the quikclier.   We cannot force nature, we can only influence it and tend it, cultivate, and hope and fear for good weather andbountiful harvest.  A good approach and bridging has a good influence and shall find good results oftener than not, I believe.  If we see a bad inlfuence , there is none that is as bad an influence as not trying to discard that or even sometimes doing much too little.
And if others approach you in distress and do you no succour still approach them in the future and do them succour if they should ever be in distress.  Show them that you are yourself.  For that is I believe the approach of a true honour and respect that shall not lower treat for being treated lower.  And if someone bears malice toward you bear no malice toward him, try to do him good despite bad;  if this doesn't ammend him at least it won't stoop you.I am express against conforming to a bad approach, habit, vice, method to align oneself to face that of another.  It augments it; it makes one thronged with the same.  I think there is too much of that kind of assimilation today.  
Vice needs to be stopped by virtue not by vice, and the most perverse, the worst vice is  not trying to quit a vice at all.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (07-31-2003 01:57 PM).]

Stephanos
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20 posted 08-01-2003 12:45 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Isn't Essorant speaking of a moral / social decline moreso than a physical decline?

Interestingly, traditional Taoism taught a "way" that was evident in nature ... a propriety of action and manner versus perversity of the same.  This was a more universal claim for morals than the subjectivism we see today.    


Stephen
Essorant
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21 posted 08-01-2003 12:09 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I believe in true people are very concious of morals on a certain quick level, inwardly and in framing sayings and writings, and artworks; but they lack the earnest and permanance and self-government to convey and use as commonly what they ken spiritually, and out of history, physically in effect.  Why is this?  Why don't the bridges we are wont to make reflect the amount of timber we are wont to have?  What retards our reasoned and displined sense from governing our living better in effect?  Why do people mock Religion?  Why is there so much pornograhy?  And so many swingers on the internet?  Why do women dress to please lechery today?   So many divorces, addictions and breakdowns?  Agression and violence in attitudes and in arts that we will yet admire?  Why does it feel sometimes like there are more cars in the city than trees, even blades of grass?  Why can't we get our humours to balance?  There must be an ache so very sore in many hearts right now to make people seek pleasure and freedom from so much so viciously for relieving.  What is causing and how will we construe this ache?  
Do we, our socialness, and the general human world give us the time and space to address it that well spiritually or physically?  To advise thoughts,  choices and changes as thoroughly as we ought to institute a living much more moral and balanced?  I don't think so.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-01-2003 12:44 PM).]

jbouder
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22 posted 08-01-2003 01:10 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

A professor friend of mine from the Behavioral Analysis program at Penn State said something to the effect that, modernly, with the additional "leisure" time we have as a result of technological advancements, we now have the time to reflect on why we do what we do.  Essentially, he wrote that, on reflection, we find ourselves slaves of behavior: we smoke, we cheat, we drink too much (and sometimes drive afterward), oftentimes with little regard to the negative effects these behaviors have on our lives and the lives of others.

Behavior, particularly behavior that is immediately rewarding, is difficult to change.  That doesn't mean it cannot be changed.  Self-discipline is one necessary element, I think.  But more important than that - at least in my thinking - we need to understand why we do what we do and, should we value long life over immediate gratification, we should make an effort to change our behavior in a more-or-less systematic manner.  The next step would be to understand how less destructive behavior can be maintained over time.

Many of us do that already ... much of it is common-sense.  You might think of the behavioral science discipline as a refinement of common sense by observation and experimentation.  Certainly we cannot extinguish all of our self-destructive/maladaptive behavior, but I think we can remove much of it from our lives by understanding why we do what we do and how we can most effectively go about changing our behavior.

Just my two cents.

Jim
Essorant
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23 posted 08-01-2003 03:40 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

jbouder--
I think you speak very true.
Our behaviors to great part will fare as well or ill as we have mind and influence on them.  Once educated and reasoned confident, behavior can be set loose for the most part and need little thought to keep in a good sense of direction, tempered impulses and nature will guide and govern. But often we will meddle with our wisdom's senses and articulate them too much, ammend when ammendments aren't needed,  they become too complex for themselves, dull and dilated into thoughts that tolerat too much, these retard the original sense and now moralities try to house perversities.  I don't know if this makes sense but I basically think we should keep it simple:  In moral influences behavior tendencies will be more moral, in perverse influences they will be more perverse.
In mixed up morality and perversity, they will be mixed up, like me

[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-01-2003 03:41 PM).]

Local Rebel
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Southern Abstentia


24 posted 08-02-2003 01:35 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

If you want to talk about ending social injustice I'll be there with you.  If you want to talk about ending bigotry, racism, and prejudice of all kinds I'm in.  If you want to talk about stopping corruption in high places, robber-baron CEO's, crooked politicians, cover-ups by Cardinals -- I'm all over that.  If you want to talk about improving yourself -- fine.  If you feel the need and that this is the proper venue and want to confess your own sin -- fine.  You want to cry about it -- I'll cry with you.

But if you want to talk about the perversion of 'society' I can't be in that game.  Because when you go there you're talking about what my neighbor does, what his neighbor does, what his cousin in Spokane does, what the little girl behind the counter at the convenience store who looks like Doris Day does -- and it's just none of my business what they do.  You see I have this huge mote in my own eye.

I'm not much for telling anybody else how they ought to live their life -- except for maybe two things -- do something nice for somebody else every day, and love everybody you can.  And if there's somebody you can't love then try faking it for a while any way.  Maybe that's three things -- but if I was King for a day I'd be working on my first paragraph up there and forgetting about what some hard-working man or woman may be doing when the lights are out.
 
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