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Flotilla Choir presents: We Con the World

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Huan Yi
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175 posted 06-22-2010 07:10 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


The incident took place during the Six Day War when Israel was engaged in battles with two Arab countries and preparing to attack a third, creating an environment where mistakes and confusion were prevalent. For example, at 11:45, a few hours before the attack, there was a large explosion on the shores of El-Arish followed by black smoke, probably caused by the destruction of an ammunition dump by retreating Egyptian forces. The Israeli army thought the area was being bombarded, and that an unidentified ship offshore was responsible. (According to U.S. sources, Liberty was 14 nmi (16 mi; 26 km) from those shores at the time of the explosion.)

As the torpedo boats rapidly approached, Liberty opened fire on them. This was after the aerial attacks. At the inquiry, Commander McGonagle expressed that he felt sure the torpedo boat captains believed they were under fire from the Liberty.

Admiral Shlomo Erell, former head of the Israeli Navy in 1967, notes that no successful argument of benefit has been presented for Israel purposely attacking an American warship, especially considering the high cost of predictable complications that would follow after attacking a powerful ally, and the fact that Israel notified the American embassy immediately after the attack.”


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

.
JenniferMaxwell
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176 posted 06-22-2010 08:13 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Someone’s not paying attention. According to the IDF’s own documents, the Israelis knew the ship was the Liberty before the attack.

The Liberty was approx 14nmi from shore, armed only with four .50 cal. machine guns which have a range of around 2000/2500meters, not 14nmi.


“Torpedo boats soon arrived and continued the attack, firing five torpedoes, with one hitting and killing 25 men. They then leisurely circled the defenseless ship for 40 minutes, pumping hundreds of 40mm, 20mm, and 50cal. rounds at wounded men on deck, stretcher bearers and fire fighters. Thinking the ship was about to sink, the crew threw life rafts over the side; the attackers machine-gunned those too. With increased radio activity from the U.S. Sixth Fleet indicating an impending U.S. response (many of the Fleet's messages bore "Flash" precedence), the Israelis suddenly contacted the U.S. embassy and informed it of this "accident." It was probably the longest "accidental" attack in the history of naval warfare an hour and 15 minutes.“

“What was Israel's motive for this act? The scheduling of the Israeli assault on the Golan Heights for 8 June was a move to defeat an intense effort in the United Nations to halt the war, a ceasefire having been scheduled for 9 June. Such pressure was also being applied by the U.S. Government. The IDF leaders were under pressure to acquire the Golan before the ceasefire was imposed, preferably without being labeled the aggressor (as in 1956 when Israel had colluded with Britain and France to attack Egypt). But with all the pressure to attack Syria, and after all the hurried preparations to do so, the Golan attack was suddenly called off within hours of its scheduled commencement. Why? Obviously, someone in the IDF leadership feared the Liberty might intercept some of the many signals then filling the air that would expose Israel's preparations for invasion. They might then be forced into a ceasefire before they conquered the coveted territory.”
http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_order/zionism/israeli_false_flag_attack_%20on_USS_Liberty.htm
Bob K
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177 posted 06-23-2010 12:27 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I beg your pardon, but it is not my position or that of anybody else to supply a motivation for the Israeli attack, is it?  Israel acknowledged it.

     In truth, the Friendly Fire explanation is the most palatable explanation the Israelis might offer.  It's nice of them to offer it, but understandable; since they are heavily in our debt, and an offer of any other explanation would be a diplomatic insult of the highest order.

     Having killed American sailors alone is all the permission one requires to speculate as to why the Israelis might have done such a thing.  Their willingness to respond with a high degree of aggression to the perception of threat from others is reason enough to believe that even a momentary suspicion that Americans might get in the way of Israeli plans might provoke a preemptive strike.

     A preemptive strike is as good or better explanation for the attack as the Friendly Fire explanation, since it presumes that they had knowledge of the ship and its position.

     Perhaps John believes that the U.S. would keep the position of the ship secret from the Israelis, and thus increase the likelihood of a Friendly Fire incident.  I would tend to believe differently, having an understanding that the Israelis are quite aggressive, and having the understanding that the area at that time was under considerable stress geopolitically.

     Perhaps John would like to assert that Israeli military doctrine is to be a bit less aggressive than I understand it to be.  That would be an interesting position to take.

     Given that Israeli response doctrine — at least on land — is to destroy the houses from which rockets are launched, it would be reasonable to believe that if the Israelis actually believed that the American ship were a real aggressor, and engaged in aggressive activities, they would have sunk her with overwhelming force.  The actual action reports, as quoted in the discussion earlier, suggest that what was attempted was a disabling attack, careless of individual casualties, but not fatal for the ship itself.

     Loss of the ship would have been possible, but not the looked for result, designed to interrupt possible flow of intelligence by forcing personnel to work of preserving the integrity of the ship and to care for casualties.

     But then, I've never been a soldier, and I'd have to say that I'm not expert.

     It's not as though Israel and the U.S. haven't had other confrontations, however, including espionage confrontations which have endangered U.S. security, and those are less conveniently written off, aren't they?

     Israel is another sovereign power, and will have real disagreements with the United States from time to time.  It does nobody any good to pretend otherwise.  It doesn't make Israel worse than it is, it simply is reality asserting it's place in our observations.  Ignoring reality isn't useful to anybody.
JenniferMaxwell
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178 posted 06-23-2010 12:00 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Loss of Liberty - Israels Deliberate Attack on an American Ship

Israel’s Deadly Attack on U.S.S. Liberty Emerges From the Past

http://buchanan.org/blog/tag/uss-liberty
Huan Yi
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179 posted 06-23-2010 12:25 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


So despite all evidence all testimony and conclusions of investigations
by both the U.S. and Israel, it is yet easier to believe that Israel consciously
and deliberately attacked a ship it knew belonged to the navy of its
most critical ally.   And for what?  Because it was afraid the United States
might find out Israeli, (who had pushed the Egyptian army across the entire
Sinai Peninsula), intentions with a ship, (not its satellites), in the Golan Heights.
Or better yet:

“ Our first response was a bomber headed for Egypt. Now who would benefit if our response had been to attack Egypt?”

Which is not far from the mindset that never the less believes that Israel, (with the help of Bush of course),
perpetrated 911.


.
JenniferMaxwell
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180 posted 06-23-2010 01:32 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“Which is not far from the mindset that never the less believes that Israel, (with the help of Bush of course), perpetrated 911.”

If you’d bother to watch the Loss of Liberty video instead of hurling insults like the above, you would have heard that certain testimony from the survivors was not allowed into the record. The investigations were a sham. And for the fourth time, IDF records state the Israelis knew the ship was the Liberty before the attack. There are also recorded transmissions of attacking pilots reporting seeing the hull numbers and the American flag. They were told to continue the attack.

Why was the Liberty there, what was its mission? What was it doing that so threatened the Israelis they were willing to murder their “allies” and risk creating an international incident? They knew it was an American ship before and during the attack yet they were willing to and did  commit war crimes in an attempt to sink it.

Huan Yi
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181 posted 06-23-2010 02:10 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

“Meanwhile, at the United Nations, and in response to Arab complaints that the U.S. and British were supporting Israel in the conflict, United States Ambassador Goldberg announced that the U.S. forces were hundreds of miles from the conflict.[12] At the time the statement was made, this was the case, since the Liberty was just entering the Mediterranean Sea[17] but would ultimately steam to within a few miles of the Sinai Peninsula.
On the night of June 7 Washington time, early morning on June 8, 01:10Z or 3:10 AM local time, the Pentagon issued an order to 6th Fleet headquarters to tell the Liberty to come no closer than 100 nmi (120 mi; 190 km) to Israel, Syria, or the Sinai coast (Oren, p. 263). [2](pages 5 and Exhibit N, page 58).
According to the Naval Court of Inquiry[18] (p. 23 ff, p. 111 ff) and National Security Agency official history,[19] the order to withdraw was not broadcast on the frequencies that the Liberty crew was monitoring for orders until 15:25 Zulu, hours after the attack, due to a long series of administrative and communications problems. The Navy said a large volume of unrelated high-precedence traffic, including intelligence intercepts related to the conflict, was being handled at the time and it also faulted a shortage of qualified radio men as a contributing factor to the failure to send the withdrawal message to Liberty in time.[18](p. 111 ff)
During the morning of the attack, early June 8, the ship was overflown by Israeli Air Force (IAF) aircraft including a Nord Noratlas "flying boxcar" and Mirage III jet fighters eight times.[20][21] At least some of those flybys were from a close range.[22]. At about 5:45 a.m. Sinai time (GMT +2), reports were first received at Israeli Central Coastal Command (CCC) about the Liberty, identified by pilots as a destroyer and the vessel was placed on the plot board using a red marker, indicating an unknown vessel. At 6:03 a.m. that morning, the Nord identified the ship as a U.S. supply ship, though the marker was only changed from the red 'unknown ship' to a green 'neutral ship' at 9 a.m., when CCC was ordered to do so after naval command inquired as to the marker's status. Also around 9 a.m. an Israeli jet reported that a ship north of Arish had opened fire on him after he tried to identify the vessel, resulting in naval command dispatching two destroyers to investigate. These destroyers returned to previous positions at 9:40 a.m. after doubts emerged during debriefing over the pilot's claim of receiving fire. When the Nord landed and its naval observer was debriefed, the ship was further identified as the USS Liberty based on its "GTR-5" markings.[23] Many Liberty crewmen gave testimony that one of the aircraft flew so close to Liberty that its propellers rattled the deck plating of the ship, and the pilots waved to the crew of Liberty, and the crewmen waved back.[24] The ship was removed from CCC's plot board at 11 am, due to its positional information being stale.[25]
At 11:24 a.m., the Central Coastal Command received the first of several reports that Arish on the Sinai coast was being shelled from the sea, and half an hour later sent three torpedo boats to investigate. This was near the Liberty's position.
At 1:41 p.m., the torpedo boats detected a target "20 miles northwest of El Arish and 14 miles off the coast of Bardawil" [1] on their radar.[26] The Combat Information Center officer on the torpedo boat Division flagship, "Ensign Yifrach Aharon, reported that the target had been detected at a range of 22 miles, that her speed had been tracked for a few minutes, after which he had determined that the target was moving westward at a speed of 30 knots. These data were forwarded to the Fleet Operations Control Center."[26]
The speed of the target was significant because it indicated that the target was a combat vessel.[26] "The Chief of Naval Operations asked the [torpedo boat] Division to double-check their calculations."[26] "A few minutes later, the Division Commander reported that the target, now 17 miles from him, was moving at a speed of 28 knots" on a different heading.[27] "Since the Division was cruising at the same speed as the target, and therefore could not intercept it the Division commander requested that IAF planes be dispatched."[26]
At 1:48 p.m., the Chief of Naval Operations requested dispatch of IAF fighter aircraft to the ship's location.[28] Two Mirage III type aircraft arrived at the ship at about 2:00 p.m.[26] The formation leader, Captain Spector, reported the vessel appeared like some type of non-Israeli warship.[26] Authorization to attack was issued by the chief air controller, Lieutenant Colonel Shmuel Kislev, immediately after a recorded exchange between a command headquarters weapons systems officer, one of the air controllers, and the chief air controller questioning a possible American presence.[29]
[edit] The air and sea attacks
Beginning about 2 p.m., the Liberty was attacked by several IAF aircraft, initially by two Mirage IIIs, employing cannon, rockets and bombs,[30] followed by two Dassault Mysteres carrying napalm. One napalm bomb hit the ship.[31] The leader of the Mirage formation identified the ship as a destroyer, mistaking the off-center fed parabolic antenna on its forecastle for a gun. The fact that the ship had Western markings led IDF Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin to fear that the ship was Soviet; he ordered the planes and a three torpedo boat squadron that had been ordered into the area to withhold fire pending positive identification of the ship, and sent in two helicopters to search for survivors. These radio communications were recorded by Israel. The order also was recorded in the ship's log, although the commander of the torpedo boat squadron stated that he had not received it.[32]
When the commander of torpedo boats could see the Liberty, he immediately realized the ship was not a destroyer or any type of warship capable of 30 knots (56 km/h) speed. He immediately ordered the attack stopped pending better identification "although this was difficult due to the billowing clouds of smoke that enveloped the vessel; only her bow, part of her bridge and the tip of her mast could be discerned." The commander attempted to signal the ship but got a reply asking him to identify himself. He also observed gun fire from the ship. He consulted an Israeli identification guide to Arab fleets and concluded the ship was the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir. Another of his boat captains reached the same conclusion.[33] Based on that identification, the gun fire and what he considered an evasive response to his signal, the commander ordered the attack to proceed.(ibid. p. 17) . . .”
NSA tapes and recent developments
Within an hour of learning that the Liberty had been torpedoed the director of NSA, LTG Marshall S. Carter, sent a message to all intercept sites requesting a special search of all communications that might reflect the attack or reaction. No communications were available. However, one of the airborne platforms, a U.S. Navy EC-121 aircraft that flew near the attacks from 2:30 p.m. to 3:27 p.m., Sinai time (1230 to 1327 Z), had collected voice conversations between two Israeli helicopter pilots and the control tower at Hazor Airfield following the attack on the Liberty.[8]
On July 2, 2003, the National Security Agency released copies of the recordings made by the EC-121 and the resultant translations and summaries.[9] These revelations were elicited as part of a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit by Florida bankruptcy judge and retired naval aviator Jay Cristol. Two linguists who were aboard the EC-121 when the recordings were made, however, have claimed separately that at least two additional tapes were made that have been excluded from the NSA releases up to and including a June 8, 2007, release.[6]
English transcripts of the released tapes indicate that Israel still believed it had hit an Egyptian supply ship even after the attack had stopped. [10] [11] After the attack, the rescue helicopters are heard relaying several urgent requests that the rescuers ask the first survivor pulled out of the water what his nationality is, and discussing whether the survivors from the attacked ship will speak Arabic. [12]
A summary report of the NSA-translated tapes [13] indicates that at 1234Z Hatzor air control began directing two Israeli Air Force helicopters to an Egyptian warship, to rescue its crew: "This ship has now been identified as Egyptian."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident#NSA_tapes_and_recent_developments


The site is a pretty credible source of information.  But it really doesn’t matter.  I’m not
contending with reason but with a religion one of whose central articles of faith is the wrong
if not evil of Israel.

.

PS


“The theory that the attack on the Liberty was motivated by a desire to conceal the impending Israeli attack on the Golan Heights is not, then, confined to the extremist fringe, but has made headway in important political and academic circles. In the past, refuting it was dependent largely on appeals to common sense, such as that made by Ernest Castle, the former U.S. naval attaché, in an interview with British television:

Let us presume the Israeli high command was... fearful that the United States would learn of what was an evident Israeli plan to take the Golan, or any other plan on the part of the Israelis. Would they say, "my golly, that will irritate the United States, our great friend. We'd better not... let that happen - so let's sink their ship instead"?

Common sense would also dictate that the Israelis, in the process of handily defeating three Arab armies, could have easily sunk a single, lightly armed ship if they had wanted to. In such a case, they would not have attacked the Liberty in broad daylight with clearly marked boats and planes - submarines could have done the job - nor would they have ultimately halted their fire and offered the ship assistance.

But it is no longer necessary to decide the argument on the basis of common sense alone. Like the other claims for Israel's alleged motive in attacking the Liberty, the one linking the assault to the Golan Heights campaign cannot withstand the scrutiny of the newly declassified documents. These confirm that Israel made no attempt to hide its preparations for an offensive against Syria, and that the United States government, relying on regular diplomatic channels, remained fully apprised of them”

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty1.html


.

[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (06-23-2010 02:55 PM).]

JenniferMaxwell
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182 posted 06-23-2010 03:08 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I think a far more credible source might be those who lived through the attack, our own troops - our troops who were threatened with court martial, imprisonment and “worse” if they talked about what happened.

I’m amazed any American would so blatantly discredit/disregard the testimonies of American servicemen. Doing so is calling American servicemen, servicemen awarded the Silver Star, the Medal of Honor, liars. All known survivors of the Liberty massacre agree, it was a deliberate attack, not a mistake. What would they possibly have to gain by lying? They’ve already been declared heroes.

Hurling insults and personal attacks in an attempt to make your argument may impress the bullies on the playground, but it certainly won't impress any thinking person.

Again, the link to the testimonies from some of the survivors. Watch it and see if you think these men credible or not:

Loss of Liberty - Israels Deliberate Attack on an American Ship
http://buchanan.org/blog/tag/uss-liberty
Huan Yi
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183 posted 06-23-2010 05:14 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

“I’m amazed any American would so blatantly discredit/disregard the testimonies of American servicemen. Doing so is calling American servicemen, servicemen awarded the Silver Star, the Medal of Honor, liars”

"McGonagle "told a man from the bridge ... to proceed to [machine gun] mount 51 and take the boats under fire." He then testified: "When the boats reached an approximate range of 2,000 yards, the center boat of the formation was signaling to us. Also, at this range, it appeared that they were flying an Israeli flag." It was not possible to "read the signals from the center torpedo boat because of the intermittent blocking of view by smoke and flames." McGonagle "realized that there was a possibility of the aircraft having been Israeli and the attack had been conducted in error." So, he "yelled to [the man in] machine gun [mount] 51 to tell him to hold fire." But the man "fired a short burst at the boats before he was able to understand" McGonagle's order. At this same time, McGonagle realized that "machine gun 53 began firing at the center boat," and he observed that its fire was "extremely effective and blanketed the area and the center torpedo boat. . . .

As the torpedo boats rapidly approached, Liberty opened fire on them. This was after the aerial attacks. At the inquiry, Commander McGonagle expressed that he felt sure the torpedo boat captains believed they were under fire from the Liberty.’


“McGonagle received the Medal of Honor”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident#NSA_tapes_and_recent_developments


Is there another Medal of Honor winner you are referring to?
.
Grinch
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184 posted 06-23-2010 05:20 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Common sense would also dictate that the Israelis, in the process of handily defeating three Arab armies, could have easily sunk a single, lightly armed ship if they had wanted to.


Using that logic common sense would also dictate that they could stop an unarmed aid ship without boarding it and executing 9 civilians – unless of course they wanted to.

The argument that the Israelis didn’t want to sink the Liberty is, quite frankly, laughable. Torpedoes are designed to sink ships Huan, 5 were fired at the Liberty, 2 missed and 1 impacted leaving a hole in her starboard side that you could drive an RV through.

It wasn’t through lack of trying that the Liberty didn't sink.

.
Huan Yi
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185 posted 06-23-2010 05:42 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

As to the Liberty,
as the article asked why not with a sub
at night?  It was a mistake for which
in all wars there are ample statistics
some already noted.

"unless of course they wanted to."

You are leaving out quite a lot about
the situation aren't you?    


.
Grinch
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186 posted 06-23-2010 06:57 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
why not with a sub
at night?


Perhaps they were in a rush to sink the Liberty and they understood that Tanin and Rahav weren’t designed as pursuit vessels and the Liberty would be miles away before they reached the scene.

quote:
You are leaving out quite a lot about
the situation aren't you?


No, I think I pretty much covered it.

The Israelis could have stopped the ship without boarding it, they decided not to. They could have used non-lethal force if they really wanted to (they’re supposed to be professional – right?) but instead they decided to execute civilians by shooting them multiple times in the head.

.
Huan Yi
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187 posted 06-23-2010 07:00 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


What happened on the other ships they boarded
before?  Why paint guns?

.
JenniferMaxwell
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188 posted 06-23-2010 07:13 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Were the planes unmarked? Is shooting the life rafts of a ship in distress a war crime? How about shooting the wounded, is that a war crime?

Let’s see the Israeli AF made several passes during daylight the purpose of which were to identify the ship. Hull numbers were noted, Israelis checked their Janes’ and identified the ship as being the Liberty. Israeli pilots contacted the war room twice during the time of the attack stating the ship was flying an American flag and were told both times to attack anyway . The El Quseir was approximately half the size of the Liberty and configured entirely differently. Looked as much like the Liberty as a kayak looks like a fifty foot yacht.

“Other than a brief public statement after the incident, McGonagle refused to discuss the matter. He was, in the words of one of his crew members, "a good Navy captain."
But in 1997, on the 30th anniversary of the attack, McGonagle spoke up.
     In a speech at a reunion of Liberty crew members and their families at Arlington National Cemetery, he called for a full accounting from Israel and the United States.
     "I think it's about time that the state of Israel and the United States government provide the crew members of the Liberty and the rest of the American people the facts of what happened, and why . . . the Liberty was attacked," McGonagle said, his voice cracking with emotion.
     "For many years I have wanted to believe that the attack on the Liberty was pure error," the captain said.
     But, he said, "it appears to me that it . . . was not a pure case of mistaken identity. It was, on the other hand, gross incompetence and aggravated dereliction of duty on the part of many officers and men of the state of Israel."
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189 posted 06-23-2010 07:39 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Question for Grinch - Have you seen Iara Lee’s hour long video of the Mavi Marmara attack? There is a clip that shows a booklet dropped by one of the IDF showing pictures of certain passengers on Challenger 1 and 2. Do you know anything about what that was, was it a hit list, a do not hit list or something? I haven’t been able to find out anything about it.
Here’s the link, starts at about 44:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwsMJmvS0AY
Grinch
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190 posted 06-23-2010 08:55 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Do you know anything about what that was, was it a hit list, a do not hit list or something?


It’s what security forces call a “Bingo list” Jen, it’s a list of people that are of interest to intelligence officers – used after an assault to identify specific targets of interest to be detained and segregated before being handed over for questioning.

They can also be used to identify legitimate targets, in siege situations for instance, where the standard practice of the hostage takers is to pretend to be a hostage to avoid capture or the other way around, to identify known non-combatants.

In this situation, judging by a couple of the names on the list - Bulent Yildirim, for instance, one of the main organisers, it’s likely they were on a bingo list for detention and questioning, . They were worth more alive as an intelligence asset than they were dead.

Another reason to believe that is that there were 16 names on the list but only 9 dead, if it was a hit list you can bet your last dollar there’d be 16 dead. Also Israeli intelligence was allegedly really upset that certain passengers were released along with the others, which suggests that they had a list of people they’d like to get their grubby little jump leads on.


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191 posted 06-23-2010 09:48 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     John, What evidence have you that any of the people here who disagree with you believe anything like the assertion that the Israelis have anything to do with 9/11?

     To believe that you disagree with me on one important position does not mean I have justification to believe that you have signed on to everything that I disagree with.

     I believe Israel is behaving badly now and has behaved badly in the last sixty years.  Not at all time, but frequently enough to make the Palestinians feel justified in thgeir anger and for that anger to have a realistic basis.  The opposite is also true.

     How does this suggest that I believe that the Israelis have had anything to do with 9/11?

     How does believing that Israel is in the wrong about this particular series of issues — the ones in this thread — suggest that any of us that disagree with you hold that opinion?  Al Qaeda took responsibility for that and even bragged about it.  Israel has not.

     I would appreciate an explanation for this accusation.  Suggesting even that I or any of us have even come close to saying such stuff really is somewhat beyond impolite. I'd like to know, on the basis of some thinking, how you came up with such an accusation and whether you stick by it.
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192 posted 06-23-2010 10:36 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Thanks Grinch! Been working on something else so I've missed a few beats, quite a few I'm afraid.
Anyway, about the missing six. You have any theories/info on that? Have read they might have been Israeli infiltrators or simply a miscount on the passenger list. Haven't seen a recent follow-up.
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193 posted 06-24-2010 02:07 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Nobody is missing Jen, if anyone were their relatives and countries of origin would be screaming blue murder.

If nobody is missing they either didn’t exist in the first place, which means that the passenger list was incorrect, or that they existed but were Israeli plants as you suggested, in which case they’re safely back in Israel with their families.

Looking at Israel’s previous operating procedure, and the reactions from both sides, my money would be on the latter.

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JenniferMaxwell
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194 posted 06-24-2010 04:50 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Yes, didn’t make much sense that no one had spoken up about a missing relative or friend. Plus seems they would have done a pretty careful check-in for security reasons. Yep, that’s what I was thinking, Israeli infiltrators. But after I saw the Bingo List, was questioning if maybe the supposedly missing six were still being held or dead. Also, can’t help but wonder, if there were infiltrators,  whether they might have helped fuel the violence, not that much help was needed. But it sort of fits a typical Israeli MO - push a few buttons, and then when people react, use excessive force, go into overkill .  Maybe it’s SOP, but having commandos abseil one at a time into the middle of a gang waiting to beat them with iron pipes seemed a little strange. You’re pretty vulnerable swinging on a rope your attacker is holding.  Not quite a suicide mission maybe, but seemed unnecessarily risky, perhaps a diversion, something for the camera to focus on while something else was going on, like shooting civilians in the head.
Oh well, just my tinfoil hat musings.

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195 posted 06-25-2010 12:57 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"Maybe it’s SOP, but having commandos abseil one at a time into the middle of a gang waiting to beat them with iron pipes seemed a little strange. You’re pretty vulnerable swinging on a rope your attacker is holding.  Not quite a suicide mission maybe, but seemed unnecessarily risky, perhaps a diversion, something for the camera to focus on while something else was going on, like shooting civilians in the head.
Oh well, just my tinfoil hat musings."


Agree . . .

.
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196 posted 06-25-2010 07:57 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I thought maybe you’d lost interest in this discussion. But since you’ve popped it up again, a few more facts for you:


“CLAIM #1: The violence onboard the Mavi Marmara resulted from the surprising resistance the Israeli commandos encountered when they boarded the ship. According to an Israeli military spokesman, "We had in mind a sit-down, a linking of arms."

IN FACT:
Testimony from passengers confirms that Israeli commandoes began firing before boarding the ship. According to Al-Jazeera correspondent and Mavi Marmara passenger Jamal El Shayyal, "Commandos on board the choppers joined the firing, using live ammunition, before any of the soldiers had descended onto the ship. Two unarmed civilians were killed just meters away from me. Dozens of unarmed civilians were injured right before my eyes"

http://imeu.net/news/article0019260.shtml


"I think it's about time that the state of Israel and the United States government provide the crew members of the Liberty and the rest of the American people the facts of what happened, and why . . . the Liberty was attacked," - Captain William McGonagle
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197 posted 06-25-2010 08:05 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

perhaps a diversion, something for the camera to focus on while something else was going on, like shooting civilians in the head.

Now, how could anyone lose interest in a discussion that offers such intelligent comments?

Stone.
JenniferMaxwell
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198 posted 06-25-2010 08:49 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

But it was just a "warning shot". Certainly not the Israelis fault that an unarmed civilian shot in the head died from it.

"As a result of the IDF's violence, which began prior to boarding the ship, nine passengers on the Mavi Marmara were killed, having been shot a total of 30 times. Five of the nine were shot in the head, some at close range, some from the back, and one, a 19 year old American citizen named Furkan Dogan, was shot in what can only be seen as execution-style: once in the chest and four times in the head from a range of less than 45 centimeters."
(45cm is approx 17.7 inches, about half the length of a man's arm)
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"I think it's about time that the state of Israel and the United States government provide the crew members of the Liberty and the rest of the American people the facts of what happened, and why . . . the Liberty was attacked," - Captain William McGonagle

[This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (06-25-2010 09:25 AM).]

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199 posted 06-25-2010 09:26 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:
  Jennifer said:
perhaps a diversion, something for the camera to focus on while something else was going on, like shooting civilians in the head.

And Mike replies:
Now, how could anyone lose interest in a discussion that offers such intelligent comments?

Stone.



     I'm unclear here, Mike.  Are you denying that the commandoes descended from the Helicopters, firing weapons into the crowd below, and with supporting fire coming from their colleagues above?  Or are you saying you don't know about the actual facts of the situation?  Or is it something else?  

     The comments either were true or they weren't true.

     The comment about the intelligence of the commentary was therefore not an evaluation of how true the comments were, but was an attack on the speaker.  People on the boat were injured by gunshot wounds and perhaps killed.  One commando required treatment for a stomach wound, not, apparently inflicted with firearm, or at least that what the references quoted in this thread have said.

     This seems to support Jennifer's account of the incident.  If you have evidence otherwise, I'm interested in hearing it, but the personal abuse  is, I'm told, against the rules.

     And what does the word "Stone" mean in this context?  I haven't been able to figure that out.

     For what it's worth, even superb troops can be poorly commanded or get lunatic orders.  Think The Light Brigade, to offer a distant and hopefully neutral example.
 
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