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A Little Bit of Sanity Enters The Conversation

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Denise
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50 posted 03-14-2010 09:05 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

And that's called changing the subject!
Bob K
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51 posted 03-14-2010 10:12 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     A mind like Rachel Maddow?

      You mean somebody with an Oxford PhD,and  who can be critical of both liberal and conservative points of view?  Somebody who's capable of marshalling references and getting her facts straight?

     The heading at the top of the thread says A Little Bit of Sanity Enters the Conversation, Denise.  I've said where I thought the left wing went overboard; I said how, and I said, I think, why.

     Seeing flaws and problems with the positions that my own folks take doesn't mean I think it proper to take a swing at Ms. Maddow without some sort of evidence of her personal wretchedness, which you seem to impute.

     When I say to you that I think that Mr. Beck is off the wall, I offer as evidence the self-destructive nature of his statements.  That is, encouragement of violence against anybody tears down the fabric of law and hence the legal protections that Mr. Beck himself should enjoy.  He is protected by them, of course, but I see no evidence of his enjoyment from the tenor of his comments.

     If you intend to thrash Ms. Maddow, you may do so without reason, and thus look unreasonable, or you may try to offer some sort of rationale that will stand some sort of fairly objective examination.  So far, Denise, you appear long on fury and assertion but short on evidence of some sort of transgression.

     If you have it, supply it.  

     The spirit of the thread, I hope, should remain with at least a little bit of sanity entering the conversation.  

     I'm not saying you need to exclude the fury; that would be unfair.  Leaven it with some evidence that points to some crime we might all agree on, though.

     And I must say again that I'm sorry for the left wing snottiness about the Tea-bagger business.  I think it's a cross-cultural short circuit those on the left are too quick to leap on.  It confirms left-wing stereotypes of right wing thinking in much too smarmy a fashion, and does nobody any good.
JenniferMaxwell
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52 posted 03-14-2010 10:22 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

You know what I really think, I think the teabaggers are being used the same way the religious right was used.

And as for Beck, much as I don't care for him, I seriously worry about him. I see red flags waving and hear alarms going off re his mental health.

And finally, nice to see you posting again Balladeer. I was worried you wouldn't come back. That really would have made me feel bad.

Denise
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53 posted 03-15-2010 10:24 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

"And I must say again that I'm sorry for the left wing snottiness about the Tea-bagger business.  I think it's a cross-cultural short circuit those on the left are too quick to leap on.  It confirms left-wing stereotypes of right wing thinking in much too smarmy a fashion, and does nobody any good."

Your paragraph above explains precisely what Ms. Maddow and her collegues did, Bob. I think that qualifies as a reason.

Nonetheless, you credit me with way too much passion: Long on fury? Not by a long shot. Just expressing my opinion on my lack of respect for her and her crowd. Her educational credentials mean nothing to me. Character is what I find important in a person.

Of course it bothers me more that there are those here who insist on continuing to use the derogatory term, knowing its derogatory connotation. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, really, but I am.
JenniferMaxwell
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54 posted 03-15-2010 01:20 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

"Teabagger" was being considered as possibly "word of the year" by the New Oxford American dictionary/ They defined it as follows:

"teabagger -a person, who protests President Obamaís tax policies and stimulus package, often through local demonstrations known as ďTea PartyĒ protests (in allusion to the Boston Tea Party of 1773)"

I don't see anything the least bit offensive in that definition/description. Seems to me, at least in this case, what some perceive as being derogatory is determined more by mindset than fact.
Denise
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55 posted 03-16-2010 04:11 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Your chagrin isn't restricted to only select groups of people being labeled with words with offensive connotations, is it Jen? The last time I checked, queen, for example, is in the dictionary too, and it doesn't even have the distinction of having just been coined a couple of months ago.

I would think that someone so attuned to the sensibilities of others, as you recently expressed, would not condone the labeling of anybody with a derogatory term, let alone persist in doing it.
JenniferMaxwell
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56 posted 03-16-2010 06:31 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Not a chance in you know what you'd ever be mistaken for the other kind of teabagger, Denise, so if I refer to you as a teabagger, no way could I mean it in a derogatory sense. If I were referring to a male, I think Iíd probably choose a description other than teabagger. If I referred to that same guy as a Tea Party Queen, I donít think Iíd have to be explaining why that was an insult and a slur even though I hadnít used the word teabagger that you object to.. I may not like the hats, or a lot of what you believe, but like the term, think itís cute and donít mean it in a derogatory sense.
I think the word caught on not because of it's alternate meaning, but because it's easier to say/write than Tea Party Member, Member of the Tea Party, Tea Partier, etc. What would you prefer to be called, Denise? I was doing a little research yesterday and came across info that mentioned two major Tea Parties. Are you a member of either major group or support one over the other?

Bob K
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57 posted 03-16-2010 07:00 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     The party would be well served by the party itself by a definity in terms of positives, as in "These are things we favor."  The publicity seems to be in the hands of others, and these others seem to define the party in terms of what it's against.  

     We are against High Taxes.  We are against gun Control.  We are against being called "Teabaggers."  We are against Big Government."  We are against Health Care Reform.  We are against President Obama.

     Inside the Party (or as Jennifer says, Parties) these things may be represented differently, but from the outside, these are the things I see.  It might help if there were a program or platform that laid down things that the party was for.  While I am pro-choice, the Tea Party could have a Pro-life plank.  I think that Denise would favor that.  If the Tea Party wants Taxes Cut, then it should say which taxes need to be cut.  If it wants immigration controls, it should says so, and against whom.

     I'm afraid, however, that any attempt to come up with such a positive program would reveal things about the Tea Party that the Tea Party might not wish to know about itself and its membership.  Or perhaps I'm wrong about that.  It would be interesting to see which folks identify themselves as members of the Tea Party in the same way as it's interesting to see who identifies themselves as Republican and who identifies themselves as Democrats.

     Demographics, not names, which seem a bit too 1984 to me, though I reasonably certain that there are name records of Democratics and Republican voters available, precinct by precinct, for registration purposes if for no others.
Denise
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58 posted 03-16-2010 09:47 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I think the term has a derogatory connotation that overshadows any other meaning thanks to the publicity genereated by Maddow and company. So they've essentially ruined any cutsey/shorthand usage of the word, Jen. I've heard them referred to as Tea Party Patriots, Tea Party Activists and Tea Partiers. Any of those are fine with me.  

Probably most towns and cities have a tea party group. There are 2 in my city, The Philadelphia Tea Party and the Independence Tea Party. I've attended rallys of both. It isn't like one of the major political parties where you have to register, but rather a grass-roots, ordinary citizen group, joining together to voice their concerns at the direction this country has taken.

There are probably as many different 'platforms', Bob, as people involved. To put a positive spin on it you could say that basically the main ones are  pro-small government, pro-tax cuts (all taxes across the board), pro-individual freedoms, pro-Constitution, pro-free market principles, etc. I'd say probably the majority are pro-life as well.

JenniferMaxwell
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59 posted 03-16-2010 11:06 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I promise to use Tea Partier from now on, Denise, as long as you promise not to wear one of those silly hats. Though for me the term Tea Partier has a connotation thatís equally strange. What pops into my mind is the Mad Hatter. Sorry.

Anyway, was multi-tasking and didn't take notes so don't have much on the two groups I mentioned. Was skimming for something else and they popped up. Seemed like national rather than grassroots organizations. One was the Tea Party Patriots, here's a link to their site: http://www.teapartypatriots.org/

Canít remember the name of the other group, but if you should, Iíd really like to know. Caught a hint of something going on I wanted to check on.

JenniferMaxwell
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60 posted 03-16-2010 11:39 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

One other thing, Denise, you mentioned Maddow's character,what is it about her character that bothers you? As far as I know she hasn't been charged with or convicted of any crime, isn't a drug user and treats her mother kindly. You seem comfortable with right wing pundits who are equally as outspoken and mock Democrats and liberals, so it can't be mocking that troubles you.

Bob K
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61 posted 03-17-2010 09:29 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     We seem to have drifted ó pleasants, on the whole, I feel ó from the original point of the discussion, which had toi do with how a significant number of Republicans saw the dangers in Ms Cheyney's remarks about lawyers doing what lawyers at their best are supposed to be doing ó standing up for the law and making sure that the government doesn't act in a tyranical fashion.

     There was a spirited discussion, but this seems to have run its course.  

     I'm certainly open to keeping the thing running, but we do seem to be running out of steam.  

     Unless there are other suggestions for which way to take this, maybe we might wrap the thread up?

     Any thoughts?
JenniferMaxwell
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62 posted 03-17-2010 10:00 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Here's one:

"And it is a disgrace to our tradition of veneration for the rule of law that lawyers who, in another generation would be respected for their professionalism, are instead being vilified as unpatriotic for doing their part in proving that our institutions of free government still work, despite the attacks of the terrorists. What greater victory could we give that enemy than to undermine our own institutions and attack decent fellow citizens for continuing to have faith in them?"
http://www.law.harvard.edu/news/2010/03/15_c.fried.html
Bob K
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63 posted 03-18-2010 02:22 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Well, now, there you go.  I start thinking everything was said, and something comes up that's on the subject and that makes sense.
 
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