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Passions in Poetry

Flotilla Choir presents: We Con the World

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Balladeer
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25 posted 06-06-2010 08:40 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, you are correct, Bob. Jews refer to a religion, not a race. If one calls a slur against them as a whole, therefore, racist that would be incorrect.
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     Exactly the reverse, Mike.  Exactly the reverse.
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Jews are not a race, Mike.

If one calls a slur against them as a whole, therefore, racist that would be incorrect.

Exactly the reverse, Mike, exactly the reverse

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28 posted 06-06-2010 04:45 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Theories of race have been used to justify the extermination of Jews.  You may have seen pictures of Jews drawn with exaggerated noses, for example, in Nazi propaganda.  This is common in racist literature, just as exaggerated depictions of Blacks or Chinese are depicted in racist propaganda.  Or of Japanese or of Italians or of Mexicans.

     Characterizing Jews as a race is racist.

     I never claimed it was logical.  A lot of the things that nazis and their sympathizers have done are not logical.

     The Israeli government has a full range of political parties, from far left to far right.  The far right over there is important in any coalition government out of proportion to its size.  Much of the world Jewish population is worried about the survival of Israel, and for many good reasons.  One of the reasons that there is worry in the world Jewish Community — if one can speak about such a thing as a whole rather than a series of small and quarrelsome factions — is that Israel does not always act in a way that seems to be in its own self interest.

     It's self interest would seem to dictate that it reach a real state of accommodation with the Palestinians, make an alliance with them, reach a two state solution and help each other out economically.  Let each of the two sides deal with their own crazies, and let the majorities work out a peaceful working relationship.  The Palestinians could have the world's first Arab Democracy.  That would really be something.  They could show the rest of the arabs what a functional Democracy can be like.

     I don't think the rest of the Arab States could or would tolerate such a solution.

     They certainly have made a point of not absorbing Palestinians into their own populations and of keeping the presence of Jews in the area a sore point, even the Arabs and the muslims peoples in the area with whom we have had at least nominal alliances.  I believe this takes pressure of their own power structures, to some extent.  Certainly this seems the case in Egypt and in Saudi Arabia.

     Israel has maintained an aggressive attitude through the whole period.  I can understand this to some extent.  I also believe that active diplomacy with some of the Arab states might have made some difference.  Active Israeli intervention in Saudi Arabia on the side of the people rather than staying separated by the policies of the government might have produced some interesting results,  say, funding some democratic resistance movements there;  or in Syria or in Iran or Iraq, for that matter, and establishing an alliance with the hopes of the the populations instead of allowing themselves to be the scapegoats of the governments in power.

     I think that position would have done more for Israel, but perhaps less for the United States.  I believe we were looking for somebody to serve our interests there, and in this case, serving U.S. interests in the Middle East might not have been the absolute best thing for Israel.

     On the other hand, supporting the U.S. is the thing that may have kept them alive this long.  I wish I could say.

     More of an answer than I originally thought of giving, I guess, but then there you are, as the Brits say.  

     Bob's your Uncle.


    
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29 posted 06-06-2010 09:46 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
The group behind the Gaza flotilla that engaged in deadly clashes with Israeli commandos today counts among its top supporters the friends and associates of President Barack Obama, namely the founders of the Weather Underground terrorist organization, William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, as well as Jodie Evans, the leader of the radical activist organization Code Pink. Earlier today, Israeli navy commandos raided the six-ship flotilla, encountering heavy resistance and live fire from the activists. Several activists were killed and dozens of others were reportedly injured, as were several of the Israeli commandos.

The flotilla was organized by the Free Gaza Movement, a coalition of leftist human rights activists and pro-Palestinian groups engaged in attempts to break a blockade imposed by Israel on the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip.

Ayers, Dohrn and Evans' Code Pink have led several recent Free Gaza Movement initiatives, including attempted marches into the Gaza Strip. Dorhn was in the Middle East just last month on behalf of the movement.



http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=160661

With the cast of characters involved with this Free Gaza Movement, like Ayres, Dohrn and Evans, I can only say that the world has gone stark raving mad in denouncing Israel. Completely bonkers!

The violent 70's radicals are running the world and siding with the Islamists and casting Israel as the villain.

God save us.
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30 posted 06-06-2010 09:58 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Perhaps the White House gave its tacit approval, with John O. Brennan, deputy national security adviser for homeland security and counterterrorism, as the contact person with the Free Gaza Movement's plans to the challenge of the blockade?
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=162377

Why does this Administration come down on the wrong side of every issue?
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Fox showed very good video of what happened on that ship.....unlike any of the other news agencies.

Yet some people will see it as simply "a ship of humanitarian aid", ignoring everything else.

The sad thing is that the orchestrators of this production knew exactly how it would be played out in the media. They counted on it....and the sheep followed.
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32 posted 06-07-2010 01:45 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




     I checked our dictionary.com utility for a definition of "islamist."  

quote:

islamist

noun
1. a scholar who knowledgeable in Islamic studies
2. an orthodox Muslim
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.
Cite This Source



     I am familiar with the use of the word in the first sense and have never seen it published in a book or magazine used in the second sense, though it's certainly possible.  I have heard of T.E. Lawrence spoken of as an Islamist.  I cannot recall seeing Osama Bin Ladin spoken of in books or magazines in those terms.

     In those terms, "to side with the Islamists" would mean that one would side with those who have some expertise in understanding that religion and those cultures.  Presumably a solid understanding of that sort of thing would be a good idea, just as a solid understanding of the Israelis and the various Jewish cultures, of which there are several, would also be considered a good thing.

     To call 70s radicals violent is at about the same level of sophistication as the one which allows other mistaken people to consider all Vietnam Vets to be war criminals.  The amount of contact with reality in either case is minimal.  As Denise is wont to remind me, on occasion, about the proportion of certifiable loonies in any group of people:  Any group may have them, but they're pretty much on the fringe.

     Jews are permitted to have as many loonies as any comparable group of Muslims, though it's hardly something worth competing for.  In this case, Muslims and Jews have treated each other sloppily in the middle east for a long time, and there is more than enough blame to go around for everybody.  Nobody seems willing to claim their fair share, and everybody seems to agree that it's the other guy's fault.  I'd like to suggest that this is extremely unlikely.

     To say "Never again!" may allow you to put aside the role of victim.  It does not permit you to adopt the role of bully, and there have been times when it seems to me that Israel has done this over the past sixty or so years.  Israel agreed to suspend the building of new settlements on the West Bank, for example.  Refusing to follow through on that commitment threw a sop to the Israeli Right Wing but did not show a willingness to negotiate in good faith.  In the end it increased the pressure on the Israelis themselves.

     The treatment of the Palestinians has been shabby, and Israel has put them into ghettoized situations that should make them weep for shame.  Jews have experienced the like, and feel rage about it centuries later.  Why Israelis would expect less or different from their Palestinian neighbors is a puzzle to me.

     Yes, both sides are furious at each other, but if they don't talk and if there isn't so real give on this, then how do the Palestinians or the Jews expect anything but a continual worsening of the situation?

     In Reference to Mike's comments about the media sheep, I respectfully disagree.  It's not the media's job to manage the story for one side or the other.  The Israelis have been acting in an absolutely predictable fashion, and they have allowed themselves to be outplayed.  They are massively off balance and they can be easily lead about by the nose unless they change tactics and become more flexible in how they respond to crises.
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To call 70s radicals violent is at about the same level of sophistication as the one which allows other mistaken people to consider all Vietnam Vets to be war criminals.

To call THOSE 70s radicals non-violent is like calling Jeffrey Dahlmer simply a man with a kinky appetite..


It's not the media's job to manage the story for one side or the other.

Exactly...and yet that is what they have done.  

The Israelis have been acting in an absolutely predictable fashion, and they have allowed themselves to be outplayed.  They are massively off balance and they can be easily lead about by the nose unless they change tactics and become more flexible in how they respond to crises.

On that we agree completely, Bob. They should have sensed the trap being laid for them and, instead, they walked right into it.
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34 posted 06-07-2010 10:54 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:

It's not the media's job to manage the story for one side or the other.

Exactly...and yet that is what they have done.  



     From what I've seen, they reported what happened, not only the Israeli attack on the relief vessels, but also the fact that the relief vessels were of somewhat ambiguous origin and that their purpose clearly involved breaking the Israeli blockade of Gaza.  Food shipments would then be allowed in, but that would mean that arms shipments would flow in as well, and the distribution of the shipments would be in, the hands of the local power brokers.  

     That last part won't have been such a big change, although the actual identity of the power brokers may change.

     I got that much from Rachel Maddow, which seems like a pretty fair overview and not too much skewed in a pro Palestinian way.  The Israelis have been reacting in a too predictable fashion, and this makes them too vulnerable to manipulation.  One of the Israelis suggested that the fleet could have been imobilized using steel nets in their ship propellers.  It would have avoided such a direct confrontation.  

     I would have suggested that their fellow muslims make cash donations to the residents of Gaza for them to grow their own food and start their own hydroponic farms using desalination plants.  It might make a difference to the economy of the area.

     It might also be impossible for one reason or another, but probably worth a try.  It's a technology the world is going to need over the next fifty years, and they'd be silly not to give it a shot, had they the potential financing for it.  Maybe the Israelis could help.
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35 posted 06-07-2010 05:20 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“ I would have suggested that their fellow muslims make cash donations to the residents of Gaza for them to grow their own food and start their own hydroponic farms using desalination plants.  It might make a difference to the economy of the area.

     It might also be impossible for one reason or another, but probably worth a try.  It's a technology the world is going to need over the next fifty years, and they'd be silly not to give it a shot, had they the potential financing for it.  Maybe the Israelis could help.”

“As Israel withdrew in 2005, it bequeathed state-of-the-art hydroponic farms in which it cultivated some 30 percent of its vegetables in water-filled containers. Palestinians soon destroyed these high-tech facilities in an attack on Jew-farming techniques.”


http://article.nationalreview.com/382044/choosing-death-over-life/deroy-murdock


.
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Surprise, surprise:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/gaza-blockade-iran-aid-convoy
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Another one of those words, Bob, with layers of meaning. This is from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:


Main Entry: Is·lam·ism
Pronunciation: \is-ˈlä-ˌmi-zəm, iz-, -ˈla-; ˈiz-lə-\
Function: noun
Date: 1747
1 : the faith, doctrine, or cause of Islam
2 : a popular reform movement advocating the reordering of government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam

— Is·lam·ist  \-mist\ noun
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38 posted 06-07-2010 08:34 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/36488_Did_Reuters_Crop_a_Photo_to_Remove_a_Peace_Activists_Weapon
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http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/rubin/307496
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     But Denise, you didn't use the word "islamism" in the comment I was speaking of.  "Islamism" does in fact carry that meaning.  You used the word "Islamist," as in:

quote:

The violent 70's radicals are running the world and siding with the Islamists and casting Israel as the villain.



     You may be doing a bit of overgeneralizing as well, since you could hardly call all the world leaders "violent 70's radicals."  The Dalai Lama, for one, might be somewhat amused to hear himself characterized in that fashion, as might the Pope, both of who seem to me to be among those who run the world, and the Israeli Prime Minister doesn't seem to be the sort of guy who might be easily thought of as a "violent 70's radical," nor, now that I think on it, does he seem to be the kind of guy to (at least intentionally) cast Israel as a villain."  Unintentionally, he seems hard pressed to avoid it.

     No matter how you define "Islamist," I doubt Benjamin Netanyahu would qualify as one.

     I must say that I'm sorry to hear that the Palestinians trashed a potential hydroponics industry.  I can't say I'm terribly surprised, but I am saddened.  There is more than enough folly for the two sides in this particular conflict to feast generously and still leave the table with much to offer the other.  The area is rich in folly and blame and gall.  If only this constituted a healthful and balanced diet everybody would be well fed.

     Instead both sides seek to peddle these commodities about the planet and both sides find ready buyers for this toxic stew.  My own preference is that nobody die, but I am afraid that both Palestinians and Israelis would rather fight me than give an inch on the possibility of conflict resolution, especially if it involves making concessions to the other side, whichever the other side happens to be.



JenniferMaxwell
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41 posted 06-08-2010 02:18 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Israel Shuts Off Water, Dries Gaza Greenhouses


Posted: August 29, 2005
1:00 am Eastern
WorldNetDaily.com

“JERUSALEM – After months of intense negotiations recently culminating in a deal allowing for the transfer of Gaza's high-tech Jewish greenhouses to the Palestinians, several former Jewish residents who briefly returned to their farms told WND they were shocked to find most of their produce has died because Israel turned off the water in the area.“

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=32030
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42 posted 06-08-2010 03:01 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Bill Gates Secretly Paid for Gaza Greenhouses
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=35684

“Al-Masri yesterday said the Gaza greenhouses are fully functioning and are producing at full capacity. He also said most of the stolen greenhouse equipment has been recovered by the Palestinian Authority police. His claims could not be independently verified before press time.”

..........................................
Damages Resulting from Operation Cast Lead

UNOSAT_GazaStrip_Damage_Review_19Feb09_v3_Lowres.pdf
http://unosat-maps.web.cern.ch/unosat-maps/PS/Crisis2008/UNOSAT_DamagedRoadsGreenhousesCultivatedLands_GazaStrip_Feb2009_Highres.pdf

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43 posted 06-08-2010 04:08 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Some other articles at the same site just before:

.

“Hamas launching rocket war after Gaza evacuation
Terrorist group foresees massive attacks as next stage of 'conflict'

Posted: August 06, 2005
1:00 am Eastern
© 2010 WorldNetDaily.com


JERUSALEM – A research center affiliated with Hamas has published a study concluding the Palestinian group is likely to launch rockets against towns in Judea and Samaria after Israel withdraws its Jewish communities from Gaza.
The study follows an announcement last month on Hamas' official website that the group will continue its war to destroy Israel by launching Qassam rockets at Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and communities in Judea and Samaria. “
.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45627

.
...........................
Gaza evacuation 'beginning of Israel's destruction'
Hamas announces attacks to 'liberate' entire Jewish state

Posted: August 20, 2005
1:00 am Eastern
© 2010 WorldNetDaily.com


"Neither the liberation of the Gaza Strip, nor the liberation of the West Bank or even Jerusalem will suffice us. Hamas will pursue the armed struggle until the liberation of all our lands. We don't recognize the state of Israel or its right to hold onto one inch of Palestine. Palestine is an Islamic land belonging to all the Muslims."
The comments coincide with recent Hamas announcements it will begin the next phase of its war to destroy the Jewish state by launching Qassam rockets at Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and West Bank communities instead of focusing on suicide bombings.”


http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45859

.
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Here you go Bob. This is from YourDictionary.com

Is·lam·ist (iz läm′ist, is-; -lam′-; iz′ləm ist)

noun

an advocate or supporter of Islamic, esp. orthodox Islamic, political rule

adjective

of or pertaining to Islamists, their political and social goals, etc.
Also Islamicist Is·lam′i·cist (-ə sist)

And the 70s radicals to whom I was referring are the names listed in my post along with many in power right now in D.C.
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http://americanbuilt.us/images/holocaust/landloss.jpg
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Strange isn’t it that several of our resident right-wingers find Sir Paul’s one liner shockingly inappropriate, disrespectful, demeaning, blah blah blah, but the video in the opening post of this thread distributed by Israel’s Government Press
Office doesn’t seem to have offended their sensibilities enough to warrant a comment.
At least 9 civilians were murdered and perhaps as many as a hundred people wounded in the flotilla massacre. The Gaza Flotilla, parody material? Not hardly.

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At least 9 civilians were murdered and perhaps as many as a hundred people wounded in the flotilla massacre.

Jenn, you make more sense when you post meaningless jokes that have nothing to do with the topic being discussed.
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"No-One Land"          
- Henry Carse

"I believe, even now, that the nonviolent option is the only way for Israel and Palestine," he writes. "Whatever the caliber of my weapon, if I am shooting the ‘other,' I am forced to deny that the ‘other' is like myself. I can only kill from a desperate position, a position, a position behind a veil, from which I cannot afford to see the human beauty and uniqueness I am destroying."

"This is true whether I am detonating a powerful explosive from 100 meters away to rip through a busload of children, or launching the missile that shatters the body of the doctor on his way to care for a neighbor. The rock in the hand and the high-velocity projectile in the gunbarrel are unalike in strategic weight, but they are identical in the fear and desperation, the bluster and the numbness they represent. It's all bad magic, bad medicine, and it is turning us to stone."  
...
“What is the balance between wisdom and force?” Henry Carse asks. “As our power to be compassionate falters, the Occupation and its consequences continue killing us all. Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians, have swallowed enough evil tidings to destroy the souls of both nations, and still neither has the courage to loosen the deadly grip.

“Silenced by dishonesty, we send more kids with guns to spread the rule of state terror and the rule of partisan terror – all for nothing but to defend the Occupation – or to destroy it. Then, silenced by grief, we bury the dead.

“If another more honest witness does not step in, the lines of battle will soon pass through every classroom and bedroom in this land. Someone must redraw the border between sanity and cruelty; already we have forgotten where that boundary once stood.”

http://consortiumnews.com/2010/060710c.html
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     Are you saying that Jennifer addressed the topic and made no sense?  Mike, I found her very much to the point.  If you don't agree with the point she's making, perhaps you'd care to say how and where rather than assuming that the rest of us understand what you mean.  I certainly do not.

     Your acknowledgement that her comments have to do with the topic at hand suggests that the comments are not irrelevant or meaningless. Suggesting they are is sophistry.  Taking a gratuitous shot at her simply suggests you are incapable of addressing the points she raises,  whether you are or are not, as a sort of roundabout display of spleen.  After all, you have the option of saying nothing about her points at all instead of directing comments at the woman herself.

     If you are capable of addressing her points, why not do so instead of taking a gratuitous swipe at the woman.  She was, after all,merely  addressing your point of view, and her view seemed, at least to me, to be as thoughtful as yours.

     What is it about the points she raised that bothered you?  Knowing you, I'm certain you have some thoughtful comments about her point of view to offer.  I'd like to hear what they are.

     I am not certain what the right ways  for the Israelis to deal with this sort of attack on the blockade process, personally.  I think that denying food to starving people is a bad position for the Israelis to be in, as is denying the folks in Gaza enough medical care and whatever hardships the trade embargo offers.  The fact that weapons come in with the goods and services is something that makes the situation more difficult and dangerous.  The Palestinians have some real responsibility here as well, and they are certainly taking full advantage of the Israeli's rigidity.

     If I had a great solution, I'd offer it.

     Neither side wants to look at the enemy as the foe that they have created for themselves through their own actions.  As long as the world and the two sides most visible in this conflict keep accepting the current way of looking at the situation, things there cannot and will not change.  As long as each side has its gaze locked fixedly and firmly on the actions of the other people and understands their own actions solely as responses to the provocations of the other side, then the events of the present will continue forward in a helpless and intricate lockstep, intense as a tango, each side seduced into an escalating cycle of passionate rage and violence.  
 
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