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"I apologize to the dead' not the GOP"

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Denise
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50 posted 10-10-2009 06:27 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Many of us think there is something wrong with his philosophy, Grinch. That doesn't make the contention a lie when we point it out.

Rationing predicated on a person's 'worth' to society based on their age, has never been the 'norm', at least not here in the States. I have never heard of allocating resources based on age before, but always to the weakest and sickest first, and then to others as resources allow.
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51 posted 10-10-2009 06:42 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Many of us think there is something wrong with his philosophy, Grinch. That doesn't make the contention a lie when we point it out.


I must be misunderstanding his philosophy Denise. Can you explain exactly what you find 'wrong' with his system?

.
Denise
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52 posted 10-11-2009 06:36 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

His philosophy appears to be the allocation of limited resources in a society to those deemed most worthy by those in power in that society. That 'worthiness' is based on age. Those aged 5 thru 49 are deemed most worthy. He believes that society hasn't invested enough financially in those under 5 to consider their potential demise as a great loss to a society and those 50 and above have already had their fair share at availing themselves of society's resources, and so society should not allocate scarce resources to them. I believe that's The Complete Lives System in a nutshell.

I suppose one of the things that really bothers me about this is that 'those in power in society' seem to think that they are the 'owners' of the resources in society and have the moral authority to determine who it is who should receive those resources, completely ignoring the fact that it is the people in a society who have created, cultivated, or contributed to the creation of those resources, and it is they who should have a say in their allocation.

Grinch
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53 posted 10-11-2009 10:39 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
His philosophy appears to be the allocation of limited resources in a society to those deemed most worthy by those in power in that society.


I can't argue with that Denise, that's exactly what he's suggesting but that suggestion is nothing new, in fact it's exactly how it works at present. Emanuel simply took all the existing methods of setting the criteria of who gets what and when in a scenario where resources are scarce and selected the best of each to create an amalgamation that made more sense.

quote:
That 'worthiness' is based on age.


That's not true Denise. Allocation based on age is only one of the current methods that Emanuel included in his revised system but it isn't the overriding method of selection - Emanuel emphasises that fact several times in the white paper you linked to.

If a 19 year old and a 70 year old both need a heart transplant and only one heart is available the prognosis of success and compatibility may well override the age criteria. If the 19 year old is less likely to survive whereas the 70 year old almost certainly will Emanuel's system suggests that the 70 year old should get the heart.

What Emanuel does say is that when no other criteria can be used allocation of a scarce resource should be determined by relative age. In the above scenario if both people have an equal chance of survival the 19 year old would get the heart based on potential life years saved. But even that isn't a certainty. If the 70 year old is the President of the US then usefulness to society might tip the scale in their favour.

quote:
I suppose one of the things that really bothers me about this is that 'those in power in society' seem to think that they are the 'owners' of the resources in society and have the moral authority to determine who it is who should receive those resources, completely ignoring the fact that it is the people in a society who have created, cultivated, or contributed to the creation of those resources, and it is they who should have a say in their allocation.


Denise, those in power within the health care system already make those choices, and for very good reason, they're the people who are best placed to make them, all Emanuel has done is collected together all the methods currently used in isolation and investigated the pros and cons of each. He's then suggested the one of them - the youngest first method of selection - needs to be amended and that none of them, if at all possible, should be used in isolation.

I think it makes perfect sense when a medical resource is scarce.

.

[This message has been edited by Grinch (10-12-2009 04:50 PM).]

Denise
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54 posted 10-11-2009 06:49 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

"[Health services should not be guaranteed to] individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia."

--EZEKIEL EMANUEL

Is this the kind of policy that you could stand behind, Grinch?
Grinch
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55 posted 10-11-2009 07:38 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Is this the kind of policy that you could stand behind, Grinch?


No Denise that would be an example of the kind of lie I was talking about.

Some wing nut (Betsy McCaughey) took one sentence out of context and sold it to you as the truth. Can you hear her laughing? I can. She was relying on you not to check out the lie she was peddling, she was hoping you'd swallow it hook line and sinker and spread the lie without question.

It seems she was right Denise.

This is what Emmanuel wrote:

"An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia."

This one sentence was ripped out of a philosophical deliberation regarding ethical trends in medicine written in 1996. It's been twisted from it's context to make it look like Emmanuel is advocating the communitarian view as a viable policy. He wasn't putting forward his view Denise, he was explaining the view held by others, which is pretty clear if you take the time to read the whole paragraph rather than listen to lying wing nuts.

"Communitarians endorse civic republicanism and a growing number of liberals endorse some version of deliberative democracy. … This civic republican or deliberative democratic conception of the good provides both procedural and substantive insights for developing a just allocation of health care resources. … Substantively, it suggests services that promote the continuation of the polity – those that ensure healthy future generations, ensure development of practical reasoning skills, and ensure full and active participation by citizens in public deliberations – are to be socially guaranteed as basic. Conversely, services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic and should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia. A less obvious example is guaranteeing neuropsychological services to ensure children with learning disabilities can read and learn to reason."

.
Denise
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56 posted 10-12-2009 11:05 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Yes, he is relaying the views of others, views of which he states there may be a consensus between the Communitarians and Liberals that suggests, stubstantively, services should be considered basic to those that promote healthy future generations, and conversely, services should not be considered basic to those who are prevented from being or becoming full participating citizens, such as those with dementia. But he goes on to state that this overlap "points to a way of introducing the good back into medical ethics and devising a principled way of distinguising basic from discretionary health care services", seemingly endorsing that consensus, despite his statements distancing himself from it by pointing out that he was speaking in the third person of philosophical trends. He also stated that "this overlap inspires hope for making progress on the just allocation of health care resources."

All of this proceeds from the government's desire, and failure, so far, to enact universal health coverage and the percentage of GNP spent on healthcare, and part of that is due to a "failure to provide a philosophically defensible and practical mechanism to distinguish basic from discretionary health care services", which I think he attempts to lay out in his article by citing the consenus view, in which he seems to find hope for progress in that direction.

Grinch
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57 posted 10-12-2009 02:57 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Are you talking about the same article I'm talking about Denise? I have to ask because your explanation of its contents seems so far from the actual content it's unrecognisable.

Here's the original article in full:
http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/Where_Civic_Republicanism_and_Deliberative_Democracy_Meet.pdf

How do you get from what it says to what you say it says?

.
Denise
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58 posted 10-12-2009 06:48 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Yes, Grinch, I did read the entire article several times. That's how it reads to me.
threadbear
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59 posted 10-13-2009 01:35 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

In the same vein, check out this nutball politican's goat-mouth:

"http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/1009/Skeltons_stick_it_up_your_a_moment.html"

House Armed Services Chairman Ike Skelton (D-Mo.) comments to Rep. Todd Akin.
Denise
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60 posted 10-15-2009 10:29 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Revealing Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT7Y0TOBuG4
Grinch
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61 posted 10-15-2009 03:09 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


A little more revealing if you listen to the whole thing Denise instead of taking a tiny portion out of context.

http://webcast.berkeley.edu/stream.php?type=download&webcastid=20057

.
Denise
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62 posted 10-15-2009 09:26 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Can you give me the gist of the context, Grinch? My computer gave me a message that I don't have the software to handle the download.
Denise
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63 posted 10-15-2009 11:30 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

In a 2007 speech at the University of California at Berkeley, Reich began his address by saying he was going to deliver a refreshingly honest talk about health care from the vantage point of an insider who would never run for president.

“In other words, this is what the truth is," he said.

Reich admitted: "If you're very old, we're not going to give you all that technology and all those drugs for the last couple of years of your life. It’s too expensive...so we're going to let you die."

“Also, I'm going to use the bargaining leverage of the federal government … to force drug companies and insurance companies and medical suppliers to reduce their costs," he admitted. "What that means, less innovation and that means less new products and less new drugs on the market which means you are probably not going to live much longer than your parents.”
http://www.lifenews.com/bio2982.html

How does the context change the meaning of what he said here?
Denise
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64 posted 10-17-2009 10:26 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Can't you give me some help here, Grinch? I would really like to know how the 'context' would help mitigate his 'truth' telling.

Please show me that those in power have a bit more regard for the life, and the quality of life, of its citizens than the regard they have for the 'bottom line' that this statement seems to indicate.
Grinch
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65 posted 10-17-2009 12:04 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Can't you give me some help here, Grinch?


Certainly.
http://uk.real.com/realplayer/

.
Denise
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66 posted 10-17-2009 02:19 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Is this different than the standard RealPlayer (which I have)? My computer isn't the latest and greatest and I don't want to risk crashing it because I can't afford a new one right now.
Grinch
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67 posted 10-17-2009 03:11 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

I don't blame you for being reluctant to load the software Denise, puters can be temperamental at the best of times and if they're working it's best to leave them that way.



I can give you a brief synopsis of the recording - it'll take me a while though - Mrs Grinch has a new list of chores I need to address first.


Denise
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68 posted 10-17-2009 05:22 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Thanks, Grinch, I appreciate it.

And your 'honey-do' list reminded me of this funny video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcPMKD8GFkI

We can all use a good laugh from time to time!
 
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