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Passions in Poetry

"I apologize to the dead' not the GOP"

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JenniferMaxwell
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0 posted 09-30-2009 09:41 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell


September 30, 2009
Grayson: 'I apologize to the dead' not the GOP
U.S. Rep. Alan Grayson, under fire for his heated speech last night, took the House floor awhile ago and offered an apology, but not the one Republicans wanted to hear.

"Last night, I gave a speech and I'm not going to recount everything I said, but after that speech, several Republicans asked me to apologize. I would like to apologize.

"I would like to apologize, and here's why. According to this study, health insurance and mortality in adults which was published two weeks ago, 44,000 Americans die every year because they have no health insurance. 44,789 Americans die every year according to the Harvard study. And you can see it by going to our Web site at grayson.house.gov. That is 10 times more than the number of Americans who have died in Iraq and who died in 9/11. But that was just once. This is every single year. That's right. Every single year.

"Take a look at this. Read it and weep. And I mean that, read it and weep, because of all these Americans who are dying because they don't have health insurance. Now, I think we should do something about that, and the Democratic health care plan does do something about that. It makes health care affordable for those who can't afford insurance, and it saves these peoples' lives.

"Let's remember we should care about people even after they're born. I call upon the Democratic members of the House, I call upon the Republican members of the House, I call upon all of us to do our jobs for the sake of America, for the sake of those dying people and their families. I apologize to the dead and their families that we haven't voted sooner to end this holocaust in America. I yield the rest of my time."

JenniferMaxwell
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1 posted 10-01-2009 11:19 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

"Rush Limbaugh is a has-been hypocrite loser, who craves attention. His right-wing lunacy sounds like Mikhail Gorbachev, extolling the virtues of communism. Limbaugh actually was more lucid when he was a drug addict. If America ever did 1% of what he wanted us to do, then we'd all need pain killers."

"The development fund of Iraq was looted by war profiteers..."

"I’m sorry Limbaugh called for harsh sentences for drug addicts while he was a drug addict. I’m also sorry that he’s bent on seeing America fail. And I’m sorry that Limbaugh is one sorry excuse for a human being."

Grayson - A bit of a drama queen, yes, but spot on about a lot more than just the need of health care reform.
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2 posted 10-01-2009 10:15 PM       View Profile for icebox   Email icebox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for icebox

44,000?  OK, what about 98,000 deaths from "medical misadventure" (2004 data)?

Bob K
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     Medical misadventure and lack of insurance may be two entirely different categories.

     Medicine is something we tend to think of as helpful to the society.  It is actually a mixed blessing.  On the whole we are better off with it.  I personally depend upon it, but the very process of treatment kills a certain number of folks every year.  Then there are the mistakes in treatment that kill a certain number of people every year.  I think those would be misadventure.

     They certainly wouldn't be my idea of Bob's Fabulous Adventure if I had any option in the matter between successful or unsuccessful treatment.  And I certainly wouldn't pick Bobs Exciting Misadventure from the menu, either.  No no, not for me.

     But I don't thing either qualify as no insurance, no treatment.  Or No insurance, you can't afford medication to follow up your emergency room treatment or options like those.  That's your 48,000 person figure.  I think it's a lowball figure, by the way.
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4 posted 10-01-2009 11:54 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

What does that have to do with the idiotic statements Grayson made?
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     You're begging the question here, Mike.  You haven't yet established that Grayson's statements were idiotic.  You've already confessed to not having understood my comment attempting to distinguish between deaths caused from lack of insurance and deaths caused by screwed up medical treatment.  The two figures are different because they are different things.  The Republican indifference to the current state of medical coverage, and their apparent willingness to side with the insurance companies in this matter is what suggests that what Representative Grayson had to say is functionally somewhat less provocative than the Republican comments about death panels and rationing health care to the elderly and trying to get veterans to decide to kill themselves rather than to prolong their lives, and in the same spirit.  It also shows that the Republicans believing in dishing it out, but believe they should be exempt from taking it.  The number of Republican statements that have tried to say the same things about the Democratic health care plan that have come out of Republican mouths and — I should say as well — the mouths of some of the more conservative Democrats have been worse and have been coming a lot faster and longer.

     Oops.  When you say stuff like that about your Democratic Colleagues, sometimes your Democratic Colleagues end up responding in language that you seem to understand.  It is a terrible loss of civility, of course.  It also happens to bear an uncomfortable resemblance to the truth, which has more to be said for it than the Republican accusations (and those of the Blue dog Democrats).  The bill as I understand it now seems to be written as a gift to the insurance industry and as a way of stealing from the people of this country.

     Calling Grayson idiotic doesn't make him idiotic.  You would actually have to prove that to people who don't agree with you already.  Name calling is an impoverished method of argumentation.  It convinces mostly by repetition and volume and not by fact or logic.  I urge you to marshall some fact and logic on the matter and make a case and to discuss it on its merits.

     The fact is that many of the people who are uninsured are people who may have difficulty voting.  I don't know this; I would have to do further research into who these people are exactly.  You might try to find out the same.  Are these people potential Republican voters?  Are they potential Democratic voters?  Would action for this particular community swing a block of votes on either side, either for or against?

     It's on matters like this, as well as who can help fund re-election campaigns, that many such decisions are made.  How does this break down on a Democratic versus Republican basis, Mike?  Not simply on a who's committed the latest and greatest outrage basis.  There's an underlying political logic to this that is written in power, and we ignore it at our peril.

BK
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quote:
Name calling is an impoverished method of argumentation. It convinces mostly by repetition and volume and not by fact or logic. I urge you to marshall some fact and logic on the matter and make a case and to discuss it on its merits.

LOL. Can I assume you're talking to Grayson, Bob? It would certainly be ironic if we were to think you might be defending his rants with those homilies, don't you think?
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7 posted 10-02-2009 08:42 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You haven't yet established that Grayson's statements were idiotic.

Ok, Bob, you've won me over. Republicans want people to die quickly if they get sick. Obviously you must agree if that's not an idiotic statement to you.

You condemn Wilson's two word "You lie" outburst (even though it was true) and defend Grayson's several minute presentation on the floor of Congress how Republicans want people to die quickly. I've seen political bias taken to some pretty high exremes but you have just raised the bar.

If you need proof that a speech like that is idiotic, then you are too far gone for me to try to reach.
JenniferMaxwell
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8 posted 10-02-2009 10:59 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Speaking of idiotic, where is the Republican health care plan? Both Bob and I have asked for links/sources that show the details, and so far, nada. Neither you nor Denise have responded. Makes one think you're either ashamed of it, there really isn't one, or like so many other right-wingers, you're so busy pointing fingers at the Dems, you really don't have a clue.

Anyway, why condemn Grayson for saying on the Floor about the Republicans, pretty much what they've been saying about the Dems for months? Another pot/kettle thing just like Denise was pointing out.

JenniferMaxwell
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9 posted 10-02-2009 11:21 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

A few examples of idiotic Republican Floor speeches. Maybe Grayson was just following their lead?

REP. GINNY BROWN-WAITE ®, FLORIDA (July 21): Last week, Democrats released a health care bill which essentially said to America‘s seniors:
Drop dead.

REP. STEVE KING ®, IOWA (July 15): They‘re going to save money by rationing care, getting you in a long line. Places like Canada, United Kingdom and Europe, people die when they‘re line.

REP. LOUIE GOHMERT ®, TEXAS (July 15): One in five people have to die because they went to socialized medicine.

REP. PAUL BROWN ®, GEORGIA (July 10): This program of government option is being touted as being this panacea, the savior of allowing people to have quality health care, at an affordable price is going to kill people.

REP. VIRGINIA FOXX ®, NORTH CAROLINA: Republicans have a better solution that won‘t put the government in charge of people‘s health care and is pro-life because it will not put seniors in a position of being put to death by their government.

BROWN: A lot of people are going to die.

GOHMERT: I would hate to think that among five women, one of them is going to die because we go to socialized care.

REP. MICHELE BACHMANN ®, MINNESOTA (July 27): The president‘s advisor, Dr. Emanuel, says medical care should be reserved for the non-disabled. So watch out if you‘re disabled.

Denise
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You are capable of doing your own research, Jennifer. Why do you need us to supply more links?

You obviously haven't read Zeke Emanuel's writings.
JenniferMaxwell
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Interesting, still no links. I wonder why that is. Reminds me of another recent Alley discussion.

Anyway, which of Emanuel's writings have you read, Denise? Have you the books at hand? Maybe you could quote book and page number so I could check out what you're alluding to.

And your opinion please, do you seriously think Grayson's remarks were more out of line than the examples of Republican fear mongering I posted in 9?
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12 posted 10-02-2009 04:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Jennifer, I wonder if you think that Wilson's remark was worse than Grayson's comments.

As far as the Republican plans for health care, you won't see them because (1) Democrats vote them down immediatly (2 more yesterday) and (2) mainstream media won't cover them. Small wonder no one sees them.
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13 posted 10-02-2009 04:22 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Denise posted three Republican plans. I remember distinctly because I read all three and commented on them.

I'll find them and post a link.

.
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http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/001845-9.html#220

JenniferMaxwell
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15 posted 10-02-2009 04:44 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Thank you Grinch!
JenniferMaxwell
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Thanks again, Grinch, got the ball rolling for me! And for anyone else who's interested, here's a partial list of Republican proposed health care reforms. Some go back a while so you might want to start with the most recent, in this case, H.R. 3478

H.R. 77; H.R. 109; H.R. 198; H.R. 270; H.R. 321; H.R. 464; H.R. 502; H.R. 544; H.R. 917; H.R. 1086; H.R. 1118; H.R. 1441; H.R. 1458; H.R. 1468; H.R. 1658; H.R. 1891; H.R. 2520; H.R. 2607; H.R. 2692; H.R. 2784; H.R. 2785; H.R. 2786; H.R. 2787; H.R. 3141; H.R. 3217; H.R. 3218; H.R. 3356; H.R. 3372; H.R. 3400; H.R. 3438; H.R. 3454; and H.R. 3478.

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17 posted 10-02-2009 05:14 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Interesting...you complain about no links and then come up with a lot of links. Makes sense to me

Nice way to avoid answering my question, anyway.
JenniferMaxwell
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18 posted 10-02-2009 05:52 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

This the question you're referring to, Balladeer?

"Jennifer, I wonder if you think that Wilson's remark was worse than Grayson's comments."

Another of your distractions but I'll be polite and answer anyway.

Grayson had the floor, and as you can see in #9, his remarks were no more outrageous than those previously made by Replublicans which, judging by your silence, you seem to condone.
Wilson didn't have the floor. The President of the United States was speaking. Wilson interrupted the President of the United States and called him a liar in front of members of the House and Senate and millions of viewers. Not only was Wilson rude and acting like a riffraff right-wing fringe element heckler, he was totally wrong in his charge, and he was out of order.  
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19 posted 10-02-2009 09:27 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Ron,

          In offering your quotation of my position, you would have made my position more clear if you had included the topic sentence of the paragraph, which I offer below.

quote:


     Calling Grayson idiotic doesn't make him idiotic.  You would actually have to prove that to people who don't agree with you already.  Name calling is an impoverished method of argumentation.  It convinces mostly by repetition and volume and not by fact or logic.  I urge you to marshall some fact and logic on the matter and make a case and to discuss it on its merits.



     I put it to you that calling Grayson 's thinking idiotic did not prove anything, least of all that Grayson was wrong.  

     You believe that I was talking about Grayson's tactics.  I was pointing out that  Hearing Mike call Grayson idiotic was unconvincing because it made no logical assertions one way or the other about what Grayson had said.  If Mike had wished to be convincing, he was wasting his time by calling Grayson names.  It was unconvincing because it was not an attempt to convince.

     Had he been interested in being convincing, he might be better served by attacking Mr. Grayson's logic or facts, since even an idiot can be right on occasion.  

     This is the reason, as you know, why ad hominem attacks are considered a logical fallacy.

     I had also pointed out that Mike had not shown that Grayson's comments were idiotic, so that his comments about my posting, which attempted to stay with a lower figure for the number of deaths from lack of insurance and would actually been to his benefit, had he thought about it, had been dismissed while attempting to assert something that was not an agreed upon fact into the discussion.  In fact, Grayson's comments were an attempt to use Republican tactics from this debate against them.  In this case, I thought that the comments had the advantage of having more truth to them than the Republican comments have had over the past several months.  There are no death panels:  They are a Republican invention.  The AARP doesn't believe that the Democratic plans will effect Medicare, and so on down the line.  The Republicans continue to repeat them as though they hadn't been debunked already.

     By continuing to support the status quo, or by supporting an increase in profit margins for the insurance companies, fewer services will be provided to fewer people at greater cost.  Unless some sort of magic will add money to the pockets of the insurance companies while increasing services.  I think that unlikely.  

     Simply because Grayson was blunt doesn't make him idiotic or wrong.  It requires somebody to show that he was wrong to make sure that his analysis was wrong; a simple sarcastic suggestion will not do.  It requires that somebody show that Grayson was idiotic to prove that the use of the term was more than a smear.  Letting it stand simply will not do as proof.

Yours, Bob Kaven
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quote:
his remarks were no more outrageous than those previously made by Replublicans which, judging by your silence, you seem to condone


Regarding Mike's question I'd go even further Jen, Grayson's remarks weren't even in the same ballpark as the previous Republican efforts.

The big difference is that when you see the republicans making their statements - like "the Democrats want you to drop dead", they're said with almost total conviction and a fair amount of venom. They're said in a way that suggests that they are either convinced that it's true, or in a way that suggests that they're trying to convince other people that it's true. Grayson's "die quickly" remark however, although seemingly as bad when written down side by side, was completely different when looked at in context.

Grayson's remark was the political equivalent of asking the Republican's when they last hit their wife. His aim wasn't to prove that the Republican's wanted people to die quickly - that was simply a tongue-in-cheek, slippery slope, hyperbolic exaggeration of a possible assumption. He simply wanted to highlight the fact that they couldn't prove the absurd assumption was false.

It works like this:

If you don't have insurance the best thing to do is not get sick. If you do get sick, terminally sick, the best thing to hope for is that you'll die quickly. The alternatives are suffering prolonged pain or accumulating mountains of debt. The Democrats, it seems, don't want that to happen so they're trying to ensure that everyone has insurance. They've put forward a plan to make that happen but the republicans are blocking that plan, and worse still, they haven't got a real alternative plan to replace it, so the assumption must be that they prefer the don't get sick and die quickly options.

It's an absurd assumption that seems logically correct. It's so absurd that nobody actually believes it but the irony is that the republicans are struggling to disprove a fact that nobody really believes and looking a little silly while trying.

I've recounted an incident in the past in these forums that highlights the situation that the Republicans now find themselves in, it may be worth repeating here:

When the witch hunts in the UK were in full swing a rather irate gentlemen turned to a fellow drinker in a tavern and suggested that he was nothing more than a witch. The fellow in question, to protect his good name and avoid the slur from going further, decided to take he matter to court to obtain damages and a public apology. When in court however the irate chap was still somewhat upset and refused to retract his claim. The judge suggested that if the plaintif could prove he wasn't a witch he'd win the case and damages. Unfortunately he couldn't and so he lost the case. Even more unfortunately, because he couldn't prove he wasn't a witch, the judge assumed that he must therefore be one and ordered that he be put to death.

I thought Grayson played this political trick exceptionally well. In his first speech he made a potentially inflammatory, if tongue-in-cheek claim knowing that the Republicans would call foul and ask for an apology. Instead he brought out fairly convincing evidence that suggested that 44,000 people a year died because they didn't have insurance and allowed the lack of evidence that the republicans had a plan to stop that happening add weight to his earlier absurd, but logical assumption.

The fact that the evidence he presented which suggests that 44,000 people die each year because they are uninsured isn't as conclusive as it first seems doesn't really matter - the republicans are too busy trying to prove that they aren't witches.

      

[This message has been edited by Grinch (10-03-2009 08:39 AM).]

Ron
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quote:
Simply because Grayson was blunt doesn't make him idiotic or wrong.

I think you missed my point, Bob. Grayson wasn't being blunt in the quotations posted by Jennifer. He was, rather, engaging in "an impoverished method of argumentation," clearly hoping to convince "by repetition and volume and not by fact or logic." He was being churlish.

You're right, of course, that calling Grayson idiotic doesn't make him idiotic. Just as calling Limbaugh a has-been hypocrite loser didn't make him one.

On the other hand, a lack of supporting evidence doesn't necessarily make the statements wrong, either.

My point, however, was that your attempts to defend Grayson by contending that no one else should do precisely what Grayson did bordered on funny. Maybe that was just me?
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22 posted 10-03-2009 08:05 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

If Mike had wished to be convincing, he was wasting his time by calling Grayson names.  It was unconvincing because it was not an attempt to convince.

I wasn't even trying to be convincing, Bob. I was simply pointing out an act which I feel anyone with a sense of common decency would acknowledge as being wrong.

No, Ron, not just you.
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23 posted 10-03-2009 09:57 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I've read excerpts from Emanuel and Sunstein, Jennifer.

Here are a few in video format:
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-315691

The allocation of care, when scarcity of resources exist, as with the current H1N1 vaccine, will be given accornding to QALY and the Complete Lives System. I just heard on the radio yesterday that vaccinations will only be given to those 5 years thru 49 years, including pregnant women. No others can receive the vaccination, regardless of susceptablilty and underlying health conditions. If that isn't a 'Just Die' health policy, for those under 5 and those 50 and older, I don't know what is.
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24 posted 10-03-2009 10:28 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise



Maybe some on the left would like to implement this guy's idea for healthcare distribution:


quote:

Conservatives and liberals can agree on the basics -- that the nation wallows in debt, that it is shortsighted of the states to cut back on the most essential work of government which is the education of the young, and that somehow we have got to become a more productive nation and less consumptive -- but the ruffles and flourishes of Washington seem ever more irrelevant to the crises we face. When an entire major party has excused itself from meaningful debate and a thoughtful U.S. senator like Orrin Hatch no longer finds it important to make sense and an up-and-comer like Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty attacks the president for giving a speech telling schoolchildren to work hard in school and get good grades, one starts to wonder if the country wouldn't be better off without them and if Republicans should be cut out of the health-care system entirely and simply provided with aspirin and hand sanitizer. Thirty-two percent of the population identifies with the GOP, and if we cut off health care to them, we could probably pay off the deficit in short order.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-oped0930keillorsep30,0,1198390.column
 
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