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Passions in Poetry

Oh, those Little Details!!

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Denise
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150 posted 08-08-2009 05:01 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

So what's your point, Grinch, that we should allow more bills to be passed without their reading them, or is it more along the lines of "why the big deal now"?

Grinch
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Whoville


151 posted 08-08-2009 05:01 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Goodnight Deer

------------------------

Personally I think you should continue to fight the good fight Denise, your Government has definitely passed insidious laws that fly in the face of your constitutional rights. We may disagree about the nature of the erosion of rights inherent in the current Health bill but there is obvious evidence to support your theory in previously passed legislation.

.
Grinch
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152 posted 08-08-2009 05:14 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

You're just attacking the health bill from the wrong angle Denise.

Making stuff up or repeating obviously fictitious claims isn't going to get you anywhere, all you'll succeed in doing is to convince people that you're as wrong as the dipsticks making up that rubbish.

There's a real danger that everybody is going to be so busy discussing things that aren't really in the bill they're going to miss talking about all the bad stuff that is in it. I posted one earlier but everybody ignored it:

quote:
This bill makes it compulsory for every able citizen to ensure that they have adequate health insurance. In so doing it takes away the free choice of some citizens who would rather fund their own medical expenses or forego medical treatment.

Under this bill our old friend Bill Gates will be forced to line the pockets of some insurance executive who's skimming off up to 30% when it's obvious that he can cut out the middle man and get a much better deal paying direct. At the same time there's a provision to exempt individuals and groups on religious grounds.

It discriminates against a large proportion of the population based on religion and affords rights to one group denied to another by act of law.


There are lots of similar things surrounding this bill, lots of them are bad and all of them are true, pick a few of those and you may have a chance of winning the good fight.

Denise
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153 posted 08-08-2009 10:45 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I think this is a better solution:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4DpMrcmUL0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ewethepeoplehealth%2Ecom%2F&feature=player_embedded

Register, it's free, and pass it around to everyone you know.
Bob K
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154 posted 08-09-2009 01:06 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

        My wife and I have company right now, so I’ve only had time to do a little bit of research of the Bush exclusion of protesters and the vetting of his audiences.  I’ve included some of the sites I’ver found below:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/13/AR2005101300693.html
http://denverthree.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=21
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4076497
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0520-05.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2005/11/29/BL2005112900634_pf.html
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a020305fargoblacklist
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/02/AR2007040201568_pf.html
http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2004/07/30/news/wyoming/63b4fcb928fe8e6987256ee10054e715.txt
http://www.prwatch.org/node/4073
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3695-2004Oct27.html
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/2004-08-09-ask-bush_x.htm


     Had I more time, the list would be shorter.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Balladeer
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155 posted 08-09-2009 02:08 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, I am impressed and applaud you. You have driven the point home effectively. I was basically thinking of the reporters in the press conferences and how they drooled at the opportunities to get a "gotcha" moment with Bush, but your articles show that audiences were indeed carefully constructed, obviously a presidential tactic, regardless of party affiliation. Thanks for taking the time....
Grinch
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156 posted 08-09-2009 05:01 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Denise,

I'd be careful recommending that people get involved with potential snake oil salesmen like Thomas N. Tabback. His idea, which isn't new btw, not-for-profit insurance schemes have been running in the UK for over 100 years, does have some advantages but there's a whole heap of stuff he's not telling you.

The first thing he's not telling you is what constitutes profit in his proposed scheme, you can bet your bottom dollar that his salary to run the thing won't be classed as profit. Or do you expect him to run this Ponzi scheme for nothing?

Another thing he's not telling you is that he's not that bothered whether the health care bill gets passed or not because his business plan recognises that his scheme would be legitimately allowed under the new proposals. He's onto a winner whatever happens and will be laughing all the way to the bank.

Another thing he's not telling you is that any savings you make will be eaten up by increases in tax to pay for all the people the government is obligated to supply health care to.

.
Denise
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157 posted 08-09-2009 09:55 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I have nothing against anyone earning a salary, Grinch. Most everyone needs a salary, I would think.

If this nationalized health plan isn't passed our taxes won't go up to cover it. They'll go up, of course, but for different reasons.

Did anyone actually believe Obama when he said he wasn't going to raise taxes? Yeah, well I guess some people did.
Ron
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158 posted 08-09-2009 11:24 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
There many ways to fight the good fight, Denise. Wasting time arguing with someone declaring how bad our government is is not one of them.

Isn't that exactly what you and Denise have been doing, Mike? I think Denise said, "Just the fact that the government is attempting to insert itself into the system, to control the system, to essentially call the shots, is evidence enough of its tyrannical intentions." How is that not "declaring how bad our government is?"

What I see, Mike, are people who just plain don't like something. They don't really understand why they don't like it, so they keep trying to find justifications for their dislike. As soon as one justification is shot down, they look for another. Eventually, in their frustration, they start blaming the people shooting down their justifications. "We don't need to talk to THOSE kind of people."

Wouldn't it be easier, Mike, to just admit you don't like the current President of the United States? Wouldn't it be simpler to admit you aren't prepared to like anything he does? You don't really need reasons, you know. You don't need to make stuff up. I think most of us are perfectly willing to accept your enmity at face value.

The irony, of course, is that had John McCain been elected in 2008, he almost certainly would have been forced to address the health care issue, too. It's just not something that could be ignored or avoided much longer. The Democrats would probably be spreading all this silly disinformation in 2009, and I have absolutely no doubt you and Denise would be on the frontlines trying to argue your way to some kind of truth. The legislation would be different, I'm sure, though essentially the same, and since you insist on the necessity of someone else to pay your bills, I suspect you would support it just as vehemently as you oppose this. Same game, different sides. And in the end, no one ever wins.


Denise
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159 posted 08-09-2009 11:50 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

You paint us with a broad brush, Ron. I am truly shocked.

This has nothing to do with 'not liking Obama'. It has to do with his socialist/communist agenda.
Balladeer
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160 posted 08-09-2009 12:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Interesting thoughts, Ron. What I see, Mike, are people who just plain don't like something. No doubt about that, Ron. We don't...and we feel we have justifications for it, like a quadrupling of the national debt,  a government takeover of private companies, a stimulus package that wasn't, an attempt to raise taxes for everyone under the guise of cap and trade, and a government takeover of the health system.

Wouldn't it be simpler to admit you aren't prepared to like anything he does? I don't know, Ron. Up to this point he has not done anything I like or I think is beneficial to the country. He is what he is, a man with no experience trying to wing it with little regard for what consequences his actions will have on the American people.

The irony, of course, is that had John McCain been elected in 2008, he almost certainly would have been forced to address the health care issue, too. No doubt he would, as anyone elected to the presidency would have to address. I doubt, though, he would do it in the same way, destroying private health care while claiming he is not out to destroy private health care. I doubt he would have quadrupled the debt, also. Would he have been a good president? Beats me....I was never a strong McCain supporter. I do think, however, he would have caused less damage, which is normally the best we can hope for from a president. since you insist on the necessity of someone else to pay your bills. I have no idea where that comes from.

Same game, different sides. And in the end, no one ever wins.

True enough....and the same people who jumped all over Bush for eight years, who brought ridiculous things into the Alley, who spared no opportunity to bad-mouth him are now the same people who are saying "So what?" or "No big deal" when things come up against Obama. Interesting how that works, no? They screamed about the money spent in Iraq  and have nothing to say about the trillions Obama has gone through. I can guarantee you one thing. If t his were a republican president, you would see one amazing transformation here. His spending spree would be raked over the coals, the tears would come out for how we are putting our future generations in insurmountable debt, cynicism over how he pushed through an incredibly expensive stimulus bill, how he has only used 10%  of it in 6 months, how his promise of shovel-ready jobs was a lie and how the unemployment rate has climbed ever since. They could complain about the army of czars he has created who report only to him and not congress, who all make between 130,000.00 - 170,000.00 and have staffs, also. There is a wealth of items they could, and would, bring up, instead of saying, "No big deal".

No, of course, no one ever wins. This is the Alley, not congress. We display our views, vent our frustrations, applaud our selections and the world goes on. Since no one ever wins, why have the Alley, if it's purpose is to come up with wins? That's not why you created it, I'm sure.
Bob K
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161 posted 08-09-2009 12:17 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear Huan Yi,

          In reference to your last post.  The judiciary has that task, doesn't it?

Yoyrs, Bob Kaven
Bob K
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162 posted 08-09-2009 12:30 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

           The Republicans would not have permitted the disruptions to have taken place at all.  You would not have been permitted to have speakers shouted down in their own meetings.  Nor would you have had the meetings broken up by demonstrators with opposing views.

     The Democrats have permitted these things.

     Why you might take pleasure in them — do you take pleasure in them? — is beyond me.  Having exercised your own right to free speech, doesn't mean that it's great to suppress that of other people.  You and other Republicans may disagree with that of course.  The fact that anybody finds this a difficult position surprises me, including Democrats.

     It's my personal point of view.  I want to know what people think.  Sometimes they make a better case than mine, or actually say something interesting, and while I often think I know what they'll say in advance, U find that really isn't always true.

Yours, Bob Kaven
Grinch
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163 posted 08-09-2009 01:04 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
If this nationalized health plan isn't passed our taxes won't go up to cover it.


I think you're missing the point Denise. The only reason your health care system has to be changed in the first place is the fact that in the next 10 years it's going to run out of money. Five years if the latest estimates from the people running Medicare are right.

This bill is designed to raise the funds needed to continue Medicare. If it, or something very like it, doesn't get passed or if the amount of funds it generates isn't enough the difference will have to come from an increase in tax or a reduction in services supplied.

quote:
Did anyone actually believe Obama when he said he wasn't going to raise taxes?


Yes and no. Obama laid out a roadmap explaining what he was going to do long term with regard to the economy, based on that plan he calculated that he wouldn't have to raise taxes for the middle class. Inherent in that is a fairly big caveat - "based on his plan". If China decides to invade Florida his plan goes out of the window and your taxes will go up. If the health care bill or an alternative isn't put in place his plan is scuppered -  Medicare will run out of money and hey presto your taxes will go up.

Denise
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164 posted 08-09-2009 04:22 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The judiciary's job is to make law, Bob.

It will be the unelected Czars and other assorted Presidential advisors who will fill in all the details if this ambiguous bill becomes law.

There are many ways in which the healthcare/insurance issue can be addressed to improve the system. This bill isn't the way to go, Grinch.
Grinch
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165 posted 08-09-2009 05:36 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
This bill isn't the way to go, Grinch


Perhaps not.

I don't believe that it has to be "this" bill, the only thing I'm certain of is that health care and its impending collapse needs to be addressed.

Does it have to be right now?

Last year the people who run Medicare reported that the funds required to continue major parts of the health system at current levels would rise to 20% of GDP by 2018. That 20% figure is important, it's a watermark which, according to most economists, is a line in the sand beyond which the US would not be able to borrow enough money to fund it's commitments.

Here's the rub Denise, thanks largely to the economic situation those figures have had to be amended. For one thing GDP is going down, while at the same time the increase in unemployment and the increase in retirees thanks to the boomers means the cost of health care is rising faster than previously predicted. Consequently the new date for hitting that 20% watermark has come down by three years to 2015.

Given that the deadline has moved, and is likely to get closer if the recession gets any deeper, your government has a small window of opportunity to get a new system up and running. That isn't simply a logistic restraint. Traditionally the first year of a new Presidency is the best chance to enact major changes, if Obama waits the momentum built up will grind to a halt and he won't get any reform in place.

So what are the options?

You could drastically reduce costs by scaling back Medicare and Medicaid.

You can put a system in place that generates revenue that can offset the cost of Medicare and Medicaid and reduces the overall cost.

You can do nothing and watch your economy go down the pan.

Before you ask your snake oil salesman's plan won't work; in fact it'll make the situation worse. If it was actually a "not for profit" scheme it would reduce the revenue paid in tax, money that your government needs to fund Medicare.

So there you have it Denise, if you can come up with a scheme that generates revenue, reduces overall cost and allows Medicare and Medicaid to survive past 2015 all your problems are solved.

What do you suggest?

.
Denise
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166 posted 08-09-2009 05:42 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise


http://www.healthtransformation.net/cs/events
Denise
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167 posted 08-09-2009 06:38 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD_YOlUBoIk
Balladeer
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168 posted 08-09-2009 09:06 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Really, Bob? You don't recall the ACORN demonstrations and the MOVEON demonstrations conducted where republican speeches took place? Now ACORN is using the police to keep demonstrators off the public sidewalks outside of building where democratic actions are taking place. There have been clips of that on tv, in case you missed it.

Having exercised your own right to free speech, doesn't mean that it's great to suppress that of other people.  

Suppression is never a good thing .But these people aren't suppressing - they are asking for answers and, when they get double-talk or political evasion, they don't accept it. Have you watched any of the videos? Listened to any of the questions? They ask valid questions and want a valid answer. I can symphacize a bit with the politicians because they don't have valid answers to give. They haven't read the bill and don't even know what's in it, by their own admission. Obama just sends them out there with a "calm the public" rallying cry and doesn't give them any ammo to do it. The people, the ones concerned about their health care, the republicans, democrats and independants who ask the questions, are sincere about wanting answers. Do I take pleasure in the squirming? In the attempts at evasions that don't work? You bet I do. I take pleasure in seeing them sweat while wishing they were somewhere else. They deserve it for the fraud they are trying to perpetrate on the American people. Do you know what I would take more pleasure in? Getting straight answers from them....but that's not happening.

At any rate, the storm troopers have been called out and, if there are any confrontations, the press will make sure the republicans started it....nice to know there are some things one can count on, isn't it?
Bob K
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169 posted 08-10-2009 02:20 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Denise,

           The world is not flat.

     My politics are more socialist than Obama's, and even I don't subscribe to your mythical socialist communist agenda.

     It is not the judiciary's job to make law, Denise; it is the job of the Congress.  

     The job of the judiciary is to make certain that the laws that are passed stay within the basic ground rules that the founders of the country set out in the constitution, and within the body of law that has grown up since that time.  They interpret what the intent of the law may have been.  They cannot make new law, though right and left each accuse the other of attempting to use the courts to do just that.

     The PATRIOT ACT was passed and presented in a very brief period of time, perhaps a week or two weeks.  Folks really didn't know what was in it, and it was written in such a way as to obscure its contents even then.

     You have been complaining about the health care bill being forced down our throats for three weeks or a month now.  There is not even a single final version by either the senate or the house for discussion.  The Congress is in August recess, and there is plenty of time to look at the bill and study it, and the various proposals being made.

     Of course you could substitute complaining about not having time for actually preparing yourself with the information you'd need.  But if you did that, you'd actually understand and be able to talk about the issues with some sort of first-hand information. That might be very damaging to some of the assertions that you're making right now about single payer systems and about denial of treatment to elderly folks, because you'd find out they weren't true, and you'd have to decide whether you could still keep saying them then, the way you do now, even when you've been given the quotes and the references by Grinch that refute your assertions.

What gives?

Bob Kaven

  
Bob K
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170 posted 08-10-2009 02:41 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

quote:


Really, Bob? You don't recall the ACORN demonstrations and the MOVEON demonstrations conducted where republican speeches took place? Now ACORN is using the police to keep demonstrators off the public sidewalks outside of building where democratic actions are taking place. There have been clips of that on tv, in case you missed it.




     I'm sorry, Mike, you may be completely accurate about this, but I haven't seen any of it or heard it reported.  In fact, I have very little about ACORN at all outside these pages, where evidently it is very big news indeed, and I haven't really understood what the big deal is.  I mean, perhaps it is a big deal, but this is the only place — other than Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly — that I've heard about it.

     MoveOn.Org is a left wing news source and fund-raising organization.  The horror that Righties put into their voices when they talk about it suggests to me that they must be doing something right.

     Demonstrations that take place where Republican speeches take place seems to me to be different than disruptions that will not allow meetings to continue, and that disrupt the exercise the free speech of other people.
One of the explanations that was not accepted at one of those meetings last week was that there was no final text of the Bill, so clear answers about what was in it could not be given.

     This the demonstrators shouted down.  The fact that it happened to be true didn't matter.  Those demonstrators wanted answers that didn't exist, and if they couldn't get them, that meeting didn't have a right to continue or for anybody else to take part in.  Those demonstrators were fools, and they wanted to reduce everybody else to their level and they succeeded.  And it sounds to me, Mike, that you approve.


Denise
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171 posted 08-10-2009 06:03 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

You felt the need to tell me that the world is not flat? Care to explain that one, Bob?

Socialism and Communism are not myths. I wish they were. Millions of people would have been spared from misery and slaughter.

My mistake, Bob. I had my terms mixed up. I was thinking Congress, not judiciary. But of course, as often as not, the judciiary has been guilty of making law, now haven't they?!

Grinch's excplanation of what the bill means is only as valid as the others out there who are explaining what it means. It is so ambiguous it could mean anything. And as these bills often do, the details will be filled in at a later time. That's the problem.

I have attempted to read it. I'd need a lawyer to figure it out, though.
Funny, even though there are still different versions, nothing finalized, no consensus, the bill had to be passed before August 1st. People are sick of this 'this has to be passed right now or the world will end' nonsense. And they don't want the government controlling their health care.  
Balladeer
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172 posted 08-10-2009 08:13 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


The PATRIOT ACT was passed and presented in a very brief period of time, perhaps a week or two weeks.  Folks really didn't know what was in it, and it was written in such a way as to obscure its contents even then.

Bob, substitute stimulus bill, cap and trade or health care bill in place of Patriot act and it reads the same, the only difference being that the last two didn't get all the way through, although not through lack of effort by Obama to make it so.

There is not even a single final version by either the senate or the house for discussion.  The Congress is in August recess, and there is plenty of time to look at the bill and study it, and the various proposals being made.

True enough but the fact that there is not a final version is a result of public disapproval. What you ignore is the fact that Obama insisted the bill be passed BEFORE the August recess, even without a final version....or did you miss that part?

MoveOn.Org is a left wing news source and fund-raising organization.  The horror that Righties put into their voices when they talk about it suggests to me that they must be doing something right.

Well, then, one must suppose that you feel FOX news, Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, Levine and all of those right wing entities that instill the same horror in Lefty voices must also be doing something right. Thanks for acknowledging that.

Those demonstrators wanted answers that didn't exist,

An incredible and accurate statement, Bob. Yes, you are exactly right!  Thing is that the Obama marching band (congressmen and spokespersons) who were sent out to placate the masses gave the impression that they were there to answer those questions. Think your statement over, Bob. If there were no answers to be given, why were there town hall meetings to discuss the bill and take questions? Why bother having them at all? What would be the point? The demonstrators weren't fools at all. They simply proved that they were not going to be fooled by the fools and their doublespeak on the stage. Do I approve? Wholeheartedly....

Denise
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173 posted 08-10-2009 09:13 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/24/news/economy/health_care_reform_obama.fortune/
Huan Yi
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174 posted 08-10-2009 10:49 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

“President Obama insists that if you like the health insurance you have today, you will be able to keep it.  But under his health plan, if you have employer provided health insurance, that won't be your choice, it will be your employer's choice. Your employer will have every incentive to dump you into the so-called public option, government insurance plan, and pay an 8% payroll tax instead.  If the employer's work force averages $50,000 a year in wages, then the employer would only have to pay $4,000 per year per worker under the payroll tax, which would likely be less than what he is paying for your current health coverage.”

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/08/07/peter-ferrara-new-study-obama-health-pla/


Which many if not most employers will see as good sense.

.

 
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