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Senator Durbin

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Balladeer
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25 posted 06-18-2005 09:10 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Jim....no, I am not saying torture is acceptable. Obviously, you and i have different definitions of torture. The only part of what i have read here which I would consider torture would be the rap music!!

I am saying, however, that some disgression could be used. There are public and non-public ways to handle things. Durbin could have looked at this and weighed the pros and cons of making it public. Pro would include going after the administration. Con would be the ramifications of such charges being aired to the muslim world, the benefit it would be to the terrorist movement and the harm it would cause our soldiers overseas, not to mention the damaging our image in the Middle East. Obviously he felt the pro outweighed the cons. It could have been handled quietly and avoided the cons but then he would have lost the glory of the pro.

One may also say the public has the right to know...the public...and the muslims...and the insurgents...and the terrorists. people who say that are normally sitting in a comfy chair instead of being on a battlefield...
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26 posted 06-18-2005 09:16 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

There's one other issue I want to bring up right now, and that is about one of the responses to Durbin's response.

Bill Frist (who's already lied once earlier this week that he never made a diagnosis of Schiavo) lied again on the Senate floor of what Durbin had said (both parts of speech transcript below)
http://talkleft.com/FristGitmo1.pdf

* http://talkleft.com/FristGitmo2.pdf

*

1) Frist said Durbin called Guantanamo a death camp. That never came out of Durbin's mouth.

2) Frist said Durbin said our troops were "committing genocide and war crimes". That also never came out of Durbin's mouth.

3) Here, Frist didn't lie, but this response was just incredible. Frist said Durbin's words are encouraging suicide bombers:

"It is anti-American and only fuels the animus of our enemies who are constantly searching for ways to portray our great country and our people as anti-muslim and anti-Arab. It is this type of language that they use to recruit others to be car bombers; suicide attackers; hostage takers; and full-fledged jihadists."

Frist has lied numerous times this week. Somehow I think he ought to apologize to Durbin for intentionally putting words in his mouth in the attempt to make him look worse than he really is and for his own political gain.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Ron
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27 posted 06-18-2005 09:31 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Second, to put out a public statement that Americans are torturing prisoners which gets picked up by Aljezeera and broadcast to the Muslim world I consider extremely important. I'm sure I don't need to point out the damage it does, not only to our image in Muslim eyes, but also to the safety of our soldiers and the recruitment pluses it gives to terrorists, using it to brand Americans in the worst possible way.

Mike, if the public statement is true, the effects you describe -- to our image, to our soldiers, to the recruitment efforts of our enemy -- are certainly very real, but are a direct result of the acts being reported, not the report itself. Shooting the messenger is rarely a good answer to any problem.

quote:
Noah states that it was just a poor choice of words, saying "Americans" instead of the Bush administration, which he really meant. Well, tell that to the Muslims reading his exact words.

I fail to see the distinction, nor the need for one. The Bush Administration serves at the pleasure of the people. Bush is ultimately responsible for the interrogators, and WE are ultimately responsible for Bush. Sorry, but I don't think you can elect a man to office and then refuse to shoulder responsibility when he does exactly what he said he would do. Whether Burbin meant one man, one group of men, those in uniform or out, is simply semantic nonsense. He could have said Bush, Bush, Bush and the rest of the world -- including the Muslims, Mike -- would still read it as Americans. As well they should.

Unlike Jim, I'm not entirely convinced the acts being reported qualify as torture. Water dripping on your forehead is uncomfortable, but it only becomes torturous when carried to extremes. I honestly don't know what those extremes are, nor do I know if they have been seen in Gitmo.

I'd like to find out. And no, as Mike implied, I don't think I'm willing to take the Pentagon's word on this. Any more than I'm willing to take Burbin's.
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28 posted 06-18-2005 09:33 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

I wish I could coomunicate better..... but I can't. I think torture is ok to an certain extant.

Only if it is absolutly certain they know something, and the procedure does'nt involve multalation or activity that greatly indangers a prisoners life.  Also the importance of the information. There are tortures (like no human or out side contact) and many others that are quite useful.  

-Sigh... if only the government would hire psychics.... you think it would be cheeper.

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29 posted 06-18-2005 09:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

"the acts being reported"...yes, Ron, and Durbin decided to be the man to do it and give it maximum exposure and, certainly, you know why.
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30 posted 06-19-2005 12:24 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Ron:

I don't find the reported acts as troubling as the effect those acts (and possibly acts that were not reported) had on the prisoner.  Durbin also mentioned that the man pulled out his own hair.  It is difficult for me to believe that a prisoner would do such a thing unless (1) the interrogations were cause psychological harm or (2) the prisoner was mentally ill to begin with.

Even though I probably disagree with Durbin on most policy issues, I have to respect his willingness to do what he sees as the right thing in spite of the likely, personal consequences of his doing so.  Perhaps the detainee mentioned in the anonymous memo is a murderer and a thug - I don't know.  I don't think any of us know for sure, and that is the problem.  I think we take for granted the due process protections we have, and I also think 9/11 presented the President with some difficult choices.

In the book I mentioned by the French soldier, Aussaresses’ guiding principle was that, when information is necessary to save lives, it is justifiable to use torture to extract information from one who shed innocent human blood in the name of an ideal.

But what was the result?  In a 2004 interview with Yasef Saadi, Colonel in the FLN resistance movement in Algiers, Saadi offered his perspective on the French decision to begin torturing Algerian natives:

quote:
With their, their torturing and killing of citizens, it was easy for us to gain followers.  It was a stroke of luck for us.  If you [torture and kill an Algerian], they have a brother and a cousin and they would join the FLN.  So during that period from 1956 to 1957, the FLN grew from having 50% of the population’s support to 95% (Remembering History).


My fear is that we are repeating the mistakes made by the French fifty years ago.  I suppose I'm also afraid that, just as the French didn't seem to have a practicable alternative, neither do we.

Jim
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31 posted 06-19-2005 01:19 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

With their, their torturing and killing of citizens, it was easy for us to gain followers.

Exactly, Jim...and that is the situation we are faced with now. Base on reports like Durbin's, the muslims already believe that, whether the reports are true or not. The damage is already done. If investigations prove that no torture is occuring, or that the fbi report was wrong or misinterpreted, do we tell the muslims to disregard those charges? forget it. It's going to be true to them, regardless...that's what this pathetic individual has done.
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32 posted 06-19-2005 01:24 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

And what if the reports are true?
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33 posted 06-19-2005 02:08 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Interesting dynamic in this thread.  I've wanted to revisit this topic anyway, I still owe Mike an explanation about why he's right.  This thread is really the same cavil anyway as the Newsweek article.

The reason that you're right Mike is exactly what Jim has been saying -- we don't need these stories out there because they breed terrorists -- and a specific kind of terrorist -- but the way to not have these stories out there is to not be perpetrating the acts -- Durbin is reading an FBI report -- something an FBI agent has witnessed.

Where Jim is not fully right, was in the other thread, ascribing acts of terror specifically to Islam.  In fact the most suicide attacks have been carried out by a Marxist group, the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka.  They are anti-religion... but practice the most deadly religion of all -- Nationalism.  

This, according to the study of Robert Pape as addressed in  
Blowing Up an Assumption and his new book Dying to Win, is true of persons whose nation is under occupation by a foreign army.  It was even true of the first suicide attacks recorded in history -- the Israelites against the Romans -- even though they didn't have bombs the attacks were suicidal.  A rebel would attack a Roman soldier with a knife -- the other soldiers would kill him brutally -- this would foment rage in a community and people would join the resistance.

When you stop to consider that most all of the terrorists who attacked us in 9/11 were Saudis (with our troops on their soil) this begins to make sense -- the violence after the Koran story broke in Afghanistan should be understandable considering Koran desecration is a capitol offense there (and in Pakistan).

Even though the Pakistani government is helping us right now -- those people HATE us -- and they have two stealth submarines that they are equipping with cruise missiles that can carry nukes (which they have).  Even with Musharif in control of the government there -- what's to keep a boatload of Al Quada sympathizers, captain included, from just running off with a sub that has a 12 thousand mile cruising range, makes less noise than a crab fart, and can strike any major city on a coast line with a nuclear weapon?

The proper response is not to get upset that someone is reading an FBI report in Congress - - it's to be upset that after nearly five years Bush has still never FIRED anybody -- in fact -- he gave Mr.Bad Intelligence a medal -- and after Rummie took full responsibility for Abu Ghraib -- what happened -- we went all out to nab the people at the bottom of the echelon.  The mainstream Muslim community needs to see frank discussion, and then consequences -- that's our alternative Jim.

Mistreating people doesn't get good information out of them.  It never does.  You get good information by gaining someone's trust -- there are easier ways to do that -- torture is a stupid strategy all around.
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34 posted 06-19-2005 11:11 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


This morning I heard Juan Williams, senior correspondent for NPR,
characterize Al Qaeda “cutting off heads” as being “out of line”.
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35 posted 06-19-2005 01:50 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Hmmmmmmmmm....

I wish bush would fire a few poeple.  But I don't see him doing that. He likes to be loyal. What I don't understand is that why is he still loyal to them, when they have been distroying his image? I have been in collage and I am not as in tuned to what has ben going on, but...  What can I say.

I meen really.  The truth is not simple.  It is hard for me to say what I want to say because I am a bit ignorant of this subject.  But then again...  It is hard not to say something when intelligent man that should know better says "americans and not administration"  Like most sen. and Rep., the speech was probably or shoud of been prepared. It almosts makes me wonder...

You see As far as I am concernedI don't care how other contries percieve what was said.  This is simply, because I know that some contries, just like some poeple, take what they want to hear out of everything.  

I mean when I went to church I had to listen to this long speech by a deacon who proclaims the fall of Bush, because all contries who had attacked "babylon" have parished.  

You know I get tired of "america Falling" speeches. So forgive my negative attitude.  I get real tired of bad poeple.  

Arrggggggggggggggggggggggggg... I don't go to church for politics.  

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

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36 posted 06-19-2005 02:32 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

In seeing how more and more on the other side of the aisle have been twisting his words around and branding a form of McCarthyism upon him for what he's said, I'm personally under the impression that the GOP are working to keep this story on the air as long as possible in the attempt to dodge the reality that some in this administration are defending prisoner abuse, some even embracing it.

With Frist lying about what he said, with Gingrich calling him a traitor and demanding his censure     , and various other spins in the media landscape, I find it ridiculous of the direction this has gone in.
http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Expulsion_Censure.htm

Ill-considered remarks are no ground for censuring whatsoever. Censure has only been used eight times in the history of the Republic and none of them run close to the veins of an ill-conceived comment.

Where's all the anger and Gingrich calls for censure when Rick Santorum said this Friday:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5018518,00.html

"It's the equivalent of Adolf Hitler in 1942." He said Democratic protests over Republican efforts to ensure confirmation votes would be like the Nazi dictator seizing Paris and then saying, "I'm in Paris. How dare you invade me. How dare you bomb my city. It's mine."

The reality here is, torture isn't being outright condemned among the administration. Some are actually defending the use of it, and they're using this story as a means to cover this reality up. Some have even begun their own line of T-shirts with phrases that read "I Heart Gitmo" and "What Happens In Gitmo Stays In Gitmo". The latter happens to be on Limbaugh's on-line store.

First-hand accounts by the FBI and the International Red Cross have shown documented cases of torture at Guantanamo as much worse than the particular instances being analyzed in the media. Several FBI messages explicitly detail the accounts:
http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI.121504.5053.pdf

http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI.121504.3977.pdf


http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI_4622_4624.pdf


An investigation is under way and accounts have not been confirmed yet, but half a dozen detainees have come out to express of the serious abuse there and are suing for information.

Sorry I had to turn up the volume a notch here, but I had no choice as I find this to be an absurd character assassination or form of McCarthyism in the making.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa


[This message has been edited by Ron (06-19-2005 03:57 PM).]

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37 posted 06-19-2005 02:55 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

..........ok
Conspiracy?

perhaps......... Have any of you watched the simpsons episode Where homer steals the giant donut. The donute boy awakens all of his advertizement buddies terrorise spring field. In the end the only way to distroy the advertizement was to "just don't look?"

Ignore properganda. If everyone would do that, it would make life easier.

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

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38 posted 06-19-2005 03:40 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Hawke:

Sure, Nationalism is a vehicle for fascism.  But are you saying Islam isn't a vehicle for fascism as well?

Where I think you're right is that acts of terror probably are not rightly ascribed to Islam.  More probably, acts of terror have their roots in Western colonialism.  Franz Fanon's "The Wretched of the Earth" began the "dialectic of violence" that resulted in counter-hegemonic nationalist movements.

Gotta run to see Madagascar.

Jim

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39 posted 06-19-2005 05:50 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

No.  Merely that it isn't uniquely oriented toward terrorism in and of itself.  Sure, one can cherry pick the Koran to assemble a theology of aggression and it's been done.  But certainly Christian Reconstructionists have demonstrated that the same can be done with the bible.  The Tigers are of Hindu heritage -- although they don't profess it.

There are underlying issues that are the cause of our current struggle with Al Qaeda here -- and it's good that with occurrence of the Newsweek Koran story and Durbin's comments that the conservatives are finally agreeing that OUR actions cause things to happen in the Middle East -- something in denial for the last 40+ years.

Ammonia isn't all that dangerous until you mix it with bleach.

That's not to say that there are actions that are going to convince the Islamic world to love us either -- part of the issues have to do with plain old economic and cultural jealousy.  The French hate us too -- but when was the last time they bombed one of our embassies?

We have over 500 detainees at GITMO, only 14 have been actually found to have had anything to do with terrorism.  Almost all of them came into our custody through bounties paid to Afghans who gave us no more evidence than saying -- this is a bad guy.

Top that with Koran abuse -- throw in some torture -- and you've got a nice powder keg -- in two countries that are supposed to be on our side right now -- remember -- it was the Pakistani's who pressured Khomeni into putting out the fatwa on Rushdie over the Satanic Verses -- they have a seriously fundamentalist mindset -- and a couple of Agosta 90B submarines and two more under construction.

Enjoy the movie -- took mine a couple of weeks ago and they liked it -- but, it's no Lion King.

Happy Father's day
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40 posted 06-19-2005 07:34 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

And what if the reports are true?

Wouldn't it be a better idea to find out before releasing it to the world?
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41 posted 06-19-2005 08:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LR..

You state the pakistanis HATE us. Certainly the terrorists groups and insurgents hate us. I doubt you would disagree that there are many to want nothing more than our destruction..that has been well-documented - and yet you state the best way to get information from them is to gain their trust. Do you sincerely think we can "gain their trust"? - win them over from a lifetime of indoctrination of hatred toward us? This hatred did not begin with 9/11 nor is it the sole result of Bush's policies. Gain their trust? I would like to think that possible but I find it unlikely.

No, torture is not good policy.  You didn;t happen to mention if you feel the instances described in the report would constitute torture, in your opinion. I would be interested in hearing your view on that.

We have over 500 detainees at GITMO, only 14 have been actually found to have had anything to do with terrorism.  Almost all of them came into our custody through bounties paid to Afghans who gave us no more evidence than saying -- this is a bad guy.

The Pentagon reports that since Sept. 11, 2001, more than 70,000 detainees have been captured in Afghanistan and Iraq. The vast majority have been released but approximately 520 prisoners remain at Gitmo, identified as terrorist trainers, bomb makers, terrorist financiers, Usama bin Laden's body-guards and would-be suicide bombers.

Which version is true - yours or theirs?
I'm glad you agree that making the reports public is not good. I also agree that the best case scenario would be not to have such events occuring. I get the impression, however, that you are saying that, if the conditions do exist, then making them public, regardless of the circumstances, is ok. I hope that is not the case.

Happy Father's Day
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42 posted 06-19-2005 08:24 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

One other thing about the remainders at Gitmo.  Their own countries want nothing to do with them, so where would the US send them?  Even the countries that slam the US for having them at Gitmo don't want them.  And I sure as hell don't want US citizenship given to them.  Perhaps Palestine, since that's where all the Arab countries banished people prior to Arafat.

If somewhere, sometime down the line someone decides to close Gitmo and move people of that nature to the US, I have the perfect place for them: Alcatraz.  It was closed due to the cost of running and supplying it, but it's gotta be cheaper than running and supplying Gitmo.  Of course, the ACLU and others would be very quick to holler 'cruel and unusual', but put those types in their own backyards and they'll quickly raise the Jolly Roger.
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43 posted 06-19-2005 09:32 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I get the impression, however, that you are saying that, if the conditions do exist, then making them public, regardless of the circumstances, is ok. I hope that is not the case.

Can't speak for LR, Mike, but that's exactly what I'm saying. We're not talking about strategic secrets. We're talking about dirty laundry. If there are people breaking the law, and hurting the entire country by doing so, I certainly would like to see it stopped, not hidden.

Jim gives some great research on cause and effect, but for me it's a lot simpler than that. This country, and indeed all of civilization, does nothing but get its tail in a crack every time we decide to do what's expedient. Then end justifies the means only in the short term, NEVER in the long term, and it's high time we found leaders with a sense of what's right instead of what's best. Might it hurt? Absolutely. But as Jim established, the alternative to a little pain now for doing what's right is a whole lot of pain down the road for doing what was wrong. Even without the research Jim provided, every right-thinking adult should already know that. It's a Universal Law, I think, right up there with Gravity. If torture saves one American life today, it will cost a thousand lives when the bill eventually comes due. If hiding and protecting those breaking the law makes us look better to the rest of the world today, it will make us look far, far worse when that bill comes due, as come due it must.

The easy way, the expedient way, the safest way always, always, always ends up costing the most.
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44 posted 06-19-2005 10:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Once again, Ron, I state that those words are easy enough for us to say from the comfort of our respective homes.

I don't disagree with your thoughts at all but  I do wonder why you apply them to actions that you yourself have stated you don't consider torturous. I have a hard time believing that cold rooms, hot rooms, rap music, and bed-chaining are crimes we will have to answer to in the future to the detriment of the United States. I would further speculate that most of the rest of the world, with the exceptions of the extremist groups who use them for propoganda, would smile at what we have branded as "torture".

...and if it comes out that durbin's report contained inadequacies as a result of his own overzealousness to bash the administration, what then? Do we put the genie back in the bottle? How? Those who say that won't happen obviously cannot spell Dan Rather or the National Guard or Newsweek.
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45 posted 06-20-2005 10:18 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Mike:

quote:
I have a hard time believing that cold rooms, hot rooms, rap music, and bed-chaining are crimes we will have to answer to in the future to the detriment of the United States. I would further speculate that most of the rest of the world, with the exceptions of the extremist groups who use them for propoganda, would smile at what we have branded as "torture".


That depends on how cold or how hot or how loud and/or how long.  If you were locked in a 55-degree room in your underwear for 18-24 hours, would you then smile and call it something other than torture?  What if you were locked in a 100-degree room with no water for the same period of time?  Do you know what the psychological effects of sleep deprivation or prolonged exposure to excessively loud noise are?

The question is not whether a cold, hot, or loud room is considered by the average reasonable person to be particularly menacing.  The question is whether such environments can be used in an aversive manner to extract information from a person.

Granted, behavioral analysis has come a long way since the day of electric shock and blow torches, but what else is torture than the infliction of pain or extreme discomfort on another with the intent to extract intelligence?

quote:
[I wrote] And what if the reports are true?

[You wrote] Wouldn't it be a better idea to find out before releasing it to the world?


Yes it would be, but you didn't answer my question.  What if the reports are true?

Will be back a little later.

Jim

P.S. Hawke ... "Madagascar" was okay - kids seemed to like it a lot.  Now "Spongebob Squarepants: The Movie" ... THAT was torture.
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quote:
I don't disagree with your thoughts at all but  I do wonder why you apply them to actions that you yourself have stated you don't consider torturous.

I stated no such thing, Michael.

When physical discomfort is prolonged and extreme it can too easily become torture. The Vietnamese used similar tactics in the late Sixties, and anyone who thinks our POWs weren't tortured has probably never listened to one. On the other hand, some of my military instructers used equally uncomfortable measures to perfectly good effect -- though I probably didn't think so at the time. I said I didn't know if the acts described in the FBI report constituted torture, because that is determined as much by duration and intensity as by the act itself. What I said, Mike, was that I'd like to find out the truth.


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47 posted 06-20-2005 12:06 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

That depends on how cold or how hot or how loud and/or how long.  If you were locked in a 55-degree room in your underwear for 18-24 hours, would you then smile and call it something other than torture?  What if you were locked in a 100-degree room with no water for the same period of time?  Do you know what the psychological effects of sleep deprivation or prolonged exposure to excessively loud noise are?


My point exactly, jim. All of the "if"'s you used in the above paragraph. Are the if's true? You don't know. Neither do I. Durbin did not specify. He made blanket statements open to speculation.

Didn't mean to duck your question. If the reports were true, would I advocate making them public in such a way?....no, I wouldn't.  i would not do it while the war in Iraq continues and while our servicemen are there fighting the same groups that will use this report to their benefit. If a soldier, for example, or an officer were to issue torture orders, court-martial them. If it were to be linked back to higher-ups in the administration, go after them in a congressional manner. It does not have to be a world-wide broadcast that Aljezeera picks up and feeds to the muslim world. Look, be honest here. You know as well as I do, his report is completely politically-motivated. He has come out with his report openly, without viable investigation and even against pentagon rebuttal, for the sole purpose of slamming the Bush administration. Did he ask for an investigation behind closed doors or a demand to know if the charges were true before going public with his accusations? I haven't heard he did. He cares nothing for the troops in the field, the reputation of the United States, or even the prisoners at Gitmo, i'm sure. He is one of the hatchetmen for the Democratic Party playing his role. That's the bottom line and you can applaud him as a truth-seeker or defender of justice if you like but, to me and millions of others, his motives are nothing more than political bias. Sell that motivation to the troops.
Balladeer
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since 06-05-99
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Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


48 posted 06-20-2005 12:26 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ron, I have gone back and read your comment and you did indeed make those thoughts conditional. I apologize for mis-quoting you.

When physical discomfort is prolonged and extreme it can too easily become torture.
No doubt. You and I can both vouch for that based on our numbers of divorces

The Viernamese used similar tactics? With all due respect, comparing the tactics of the vietnamese with the tactics at Gitmo (even if they kept the temperature in the rooms at 100 degrees for a MONTH) would be like comparing a kiss on the cheek with biting a large chunk of cheek out with your teeth. Comparing those two run parallel with comparing American soldiers with the nazis running the death camps.

What I said, Mike, was that I'd like to find out the truth.

Me, too. It's a shame that durbin didn't feel the same way before releasing his statements.  Maybe if the investigations reveal that the tactics were not really torturous we can get Aljezeera to print a retraction...ya think?
Juju
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since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


49 posted 06-20-2005 12:49 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Lets say (Playing Devil's Advatcate) That the "Bush Administration" Like rumsfeld o gbush him self were giving orders to flush the koran down the toliet, horrid torture(think veitnam terms), and what ever else can be added.

My problem isn't merely that I disagree for what ever reason.  When HE was adressing whom ever he was adressing, it is his responcibility to clearly state the problem and clearly show the research (summed up) Clearly show the result, and finaly clearly the cause.  This is called the scientific methode.  From what I saw in this thread, he did not approach this methode and did not organize this like a proffessional. When some one is getting paid a whole lot of money, they should act like an proffessional.

This is not political correctiveness, this is giving his constituants a logical explanation to what has happaned.

So to intelligant people, when they see this, a big red flag pops up and say's "Something isn't right"

Here are some fallacies I have found

-broadness
-adjetive loading
-circling reasoning
-Comparing some event to another unrelated avent.

My point is just that it worries me when an educated man pulls this... it kinda insults my intelligence.

Oh yeah.. When I was saying I was confused earlier, it was because I thought things got off subject to clear things up.  I am not always specific to what I mean. Which is why I am not becoming a political analysis and a biomedical engineer.(;


-Juju

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

 
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