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Passions in Poetry

The abortion debate??

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neveah5
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0 posted 01-21-2003 05:07 PM       View Profile for neveah5   Email neveah5   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit neveah5's Home Page   View IP for neveah5


What does everyone think of it???  Should abortion stay legal or should they overturn it?
quietlydying
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1 posted 01-21-2003 07:03 PM       View Profile for quietlydying   Email quietlydying   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for quietlydying

no comment.

/jen/

'Christianity is the complete negation of common sense and sound reason.'
-- Mikhail Bakunin

brian madden
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2 posted 01-21-2003 07:34 PM       View Profile for brian madden   Email brian madden   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for brian madden

now this is one sure way of opening a big can of worms. this post would probably be best suited to the philosophy  forum. Personally I am pro life with the exception of extreme cases such as rape, i view the foetus as a living organism. This issue is a complex one, women can have unwanted pregancies and no way to support the child. I think that it should be available, but there is the danger that it will be abused, used as a quick solution. I will never, being a man, be in a position where I will have to make the decision therefore my thoughts on the matter are some what limited. You can condemn or condone something but until it affects you it is impossible to make a clear assessment on the subject.

THese are just my feelings on the issue. I will say no more for the time being.


got hips like cinderella must be having a good shame talking sweet about nothing
cookie i think you're tame" The Pixies

[This message has been edited by brian madden (01-21-2003 07:40 PM).]

WinterWren
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3 posted 01-21-2003 09:06 PM       View Profile for WinterWren   Email WinterWren   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit WinterWren's Home Page   View IP for WinterWren

While I think in my personal opinion abotion is wrong all around. If you don't want the baby you can always put it up for adoption.
It is a living breathing human being.
Even if abortion was illegal people would still do it. So making it so doesn't solve the problem.

WinterWren
"I want you to believe in life. Will you find out who you are too late, to change?" -Dishwalla-

anonymousfemale
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4 posted 01-21-2003 09:43 PM       View Profile for anonymousfemale   Email anonymousfemale   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for anonymousfemale

Keep it legal. It's cruel to bring children into a world that will only screw them over.

Don't steal - the Government hates competition.

quietlydying
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5 posted 01-21-2003 09:55 PM       View Profile for quietlydying   Email quietlydying   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for quietlydying

uh, techincally not breathing since it still is in the womb.

/jen/

'Christianity is the complete negation of common sense and sound reason.'
-- Mikhail Bakunin

neveah5
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6 posted 01-21-2003 10:02 PM       View Profile for neveah5   Email neveah5   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit neveah5's Home Page   View IP for neveah5

Are any of you close to someone whos been affected by an abortion?

My mother had an abortion when she was 16..5 years before I came along.  It kinda makes me sad to think that I could've had the older brother that I always wanted..then I think, well if she had that baby, i might not have came along.  
Jaime
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7 posted 01-21-2003 10:23 PM       Edit/Delete Message     View IP for Jaime

A friend of a friend had an abortion not too long ago (she's 18). Also, my Aunt Cindy had an abortion a long time ago when she was a teen and after the abortion she could no longer get pregnant.

First of all, I think that using abortion as a form of birth control (like the pill, etc.) is disgusting. There is a girl at my school who has had 4 abortions because she doesn't use condoms and she's not on any form of birth control. She just recently decided to keep the one she's pregnant with now. I feel sorry for the child. Somebody should just sew that stupid whore up.

I am pro-choice because I believe that a woman should have the right to choose. However, my choice would be to not have an abortion. I cannot stand the idea of preventing something the chance at life. But that's my choice.. as I said.. I think everyone should be able to make that choice for themselves.  

- Jaime

Shiva went on break now look at how much it's gonna take to make this place a space where we can breathe.

Miah
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8 posted 01-21-2003 11:40 PM       View Profile for Miah   Email Miah   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Miah

What about the fathers? where are they? it is very simple, if you don't want a baby be responsible enough to use protection.  

I believe in the right to do whatever you want to YOUR body, but you are also responsible for the life you have growing inside of you.  

I am pro life, however oddly enough I think that it should be legal.  Only watched very closely.  

I do not believe in aborition, but I can empathize with woman of rape, that is a hard thing to handle.  

Although I do not condone woman that get abortions, I also don't condemn them either. I just hate when  women get abortions like they change their underware.

[This message has been edited by Miah (01-21-2003 11:41 PM).]

WinterWren
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9 posted 01-21-2003 11:52 PM       View Profile for WinterWren   Email WinterWren   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit WinterWren's Home Page   View IP for WinterWren

Well it'll Eventually be breathing anyway.

WinterWren
"I want you to believe in life. Will you find out who you are too late, to change?" -Dishwalla-

quietlydying
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10 posted 01-22-2003 12:09 AM       View Profile for quietlydying   Email quietlydying   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for quietlydying

but not at the moment, which defeats the purpose of your statement.

/jen/

'Christianity is the complete negation of common sense and sound reason.'
-- Mikhail Bakunin

neveah5
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11 posted 01-22-2003 12:09 AM       View Profile for neveah5   Email neveah5   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit neveah5's Home Page   View IP for neveah5

I had to write a paper in school a few years ago about the abortion debate..i actually had to choose whether i was pro choice or pro life. it was so hard to choose that my paper actually sounded like i was riding the fence.  
I believe that everyone has the right to choose and control what happens with their bodies.  
I also believe that getting rid of something because it compromises your lifestyle or future hopes and plans is a selfish thing to do.
The whole rape situation is very sensitive. I guess that would be a totally different story.
I also wonder if it is possible to find out early enough in the pregnancy that the child could have something severely wrong with it what exactly would be the best thing to do..
PoetryIsLife
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12 posted 01-22-2003 12:37 AM       View Profile for PoetryIsLife   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PoetryIsLife

It has all the charicteristics of life, and would be life if it were not aborted, so I've never really understood how it's been seen as anything other then murder. It's always puzzled me.

I mean, if we sucked the brains out of a adult human, it would be murder. Simply because it hasn't taken a 'breath' yet, it's not alive? And therefore doesn't feel pain? I'm not sure if an unborn child can feel pain within the womb, but I would have to imagine, having the contents of your brain sucked out would have to be unpleasent.

I was born two months premature, because my mother's blood type was killing me. If she had had an abortion, I wouldn't be here. So, how can the baby the I was in her womb, slowly being killed by her blood not be considered alive?

~Titus

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
                 --Aldous Huxley

anonymousfemale
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13 posted 01-22-2003 09:26 AM       View Profile for anonymousfemale   Email anonymousfemale   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for anonymousfemale

Ti, nobody said that it wasn't alive. Jen simply pointed out that it wasn't breathing yet. You can still be alive and have a machine breathing for you. Same thing in a sense.

I've been close to women who have had abortions for a multitude of reasons. Perhaps I am slightly biased because I don't agree with anything that is pro-life but an abortion is a persons own right to choose. If the father want to have a child, perhaps he should choose a woman that shares the fondness.

"Write something, even if it's just a suicide note." -- Gore Vidal

Miah
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14 posted 01-22-2003 09:45 AM       View Profile for Miah   Email Miah   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Miah

Maybe someone can help me here.  I remember reading somewhere that this guy was born without arms because his mother was in the process of having an abortion and the doctor stopped because he wanted more money, which she did not have.  So she wound up having the child which was born with no arms due to the doctors half proceedure.  This man is now I think a  great Pianist.  Actually, I am just wondering if anyone heard of him, if they did maybe they can shed more light on it.  This abortion subject made me think of this story but for the life of me I can't remember all the details.  Maybe someone else can remember.
hush
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15 posted 01-22-2003 10:07 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Miah, I know the guy you're talking about, but I've never heard that his lack of arms was due to abotched abortion... (?)

Anyway, I was listening to NPR yesterday, and they were talking about how in mainstream culture, if you're anywhere between the two extremes, they don't want you. By polarizing the debate and preventing any true dialogue on national talk shows, especially on TV, they get heated debates and eventually totally non-constructive fighting- AKA ratings.

However, I do feel that most of us do ride the fence- I know I do. I heard a pro-choice activist talking about the republican government's recent measures to 'elevate the fetus' and I started thinking... it's a human life. If I had a human life burgeoning inside of me (despite the fact that I have no desire or intention to get pregnant right now), I sure as hell would elevate it...

But do I have the right to tell other women that they must elevate their fetuses? It's such a hard call to make, because while a fetus is an individual life which, in my opinion, should be preserved at all cost, it is also part of the woman's body. How can you legislate what goes on inside a woman's womb?

I do think that partial-birth abortions absolutely should be banned- I mean, what, did you carry the baby most of the way to tem and then just change your mind? No, doesn't work that way... if you're going to do that, why not just remove the baby via C-section and if them mother doesn't want it, make it a ward of the state?

I am also appalled by women who have multiple abortions... I mean, I don't know how you can legislate that, I don't know if it's possible or even preferable to limit the amount of legal abortions a woman can have... but it doesn't matter, because there'll always be a black market waiting, and that's the bottom line with making anything illegal... it will always be available... and I would personally prefer that women have access to safe facilities... the same way I would prefer access to safe recreational drugs and safe prostititution.
Miah
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16 posted 01-22-2003 10:20 AM       View Profile for Miah   Email Miah   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Miah

hahah, you know, I know the guy your talking about, and I believe I'm thinking about someone else. OH'well this is going to drive me nuts till I find out.  

PS.  I think people "ride the fence" because this is not just a black and white situation.  It's not abortion or no abortion, pro life or pro choice.  It envolves many layers. If that mades sense.  haha that is the only way I could explain it.

[This message has been edited by Miah (01-22-2003 10:23 AM).]

WinterWren
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17 posted 01-22-2003 11:31 AM       View Profile for WinterWren   Email WinterWren   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit WinterWren's Home Page   View IP for WinterWren

No it doesn't defeat the purpose, if you take out breathing it says, "A living human being." and that still applies.
All of that is just my personal opinion and your entitled to yours, so please don't pick on my words.

WinterWren
"I want you to believe in life. Will you find out who you are too late, to change?" -Dishwalla-

quietlydying
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18 posted 01-22-2003 08:05 PM       View Profile for quietlydying   Email quietlydying   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for quietlydying

sucking the brain out of an adult?

really ti.  i expected more from you.  waaaay more than that.

::shakes her head::

/jen/

'Christianity is the complete negation of common sense and sound reason.'
-- Mikhail Bakunin

PoetryIsLife
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19 posted 01-22-2003 08:26 PM       View Profile for PoetryIsLife   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PoetryIsLife

Eh ... not sure what you mean by that, but okay. This is not a light topic by any means, certainly one prevalent among today's society. It means a great deal to me personally. My response was what it was, with time and responsibilities limiting.

I've done some research, and I chose one example for my reply. It's a pertinent one, so, I'm not really sure what was so off about it.

Feel free to email me, if you like.

Sincerely,
Titus

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
                 --Aldous Huxley

Allysa
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20 posted 01-23-2003 10:35 AM       View Profile for Allysa   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Allysa

Abortion, eh?  Hmmm.... I'll express my views through my situation... I do not believe in using abortion as a form of birth control... A friend of mine recently made the decision to become sexually active and made a promise to both her mother (who knows) and myself that she would remain on birth control and using condoms the entire time... then, a few weeks ago, her and her boyfriend (she's 15, he's 18 or 19, I don't remember) decided to have sex without a condom to see what it feels like and she can't remember if she has taken her birth control all the times  when she was supposed and now she thinks she's pregnant... thinks would be the key word, but still, it's possible.  I asked her what she would do about it and she said "kill it"  simply because she didn't feel like using a condom.  Hmm.  And technically, isn't a fifteen year old having sex with an eighteen year old illegal?

When it's rape, or incest, some abortion is okay with me, but still... I dunno.  I do know that if I was sexually active and using some form of birth control and I got pregnant, I would probably want a way out.  Not saying that I would use that way... Don't take this the wrong way, this is the most honest thing I can think of (and it's not going to happen, seeing as to how I have no desire what so ever to become sexually active anytime in the next five years) I would be more likely to take my own life away than that of an innocent baby.  Some people just need a way out and they see it as the easiest way out.


"Wie ein Quadrat in einem Kreis, eck' ich immer wieder an obwohl ich doch schon lange weiß, daß ich niemals ändern kann." ~Wizo

[This message has been edited by Allysa (01-23-2003 10:41 AM).]

Opeth
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21 posted 01-23-2003 11:42 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Hush made much sense, indeed.

"I do think that partial-birth abortions absolutely should be banned- I mean, what, did you carry the baby most of the way to tem and then just change your mind?"


~ Democrats also support this action, figuratively, in the political womb...Does anyone remember the last New Jersey Senatorial election?

[This message has been edited by Opeth (01-23-2003 12:21 PM).]

Jenn Cirrincione
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22 posted 01-23-2003 12:17 PM       View Profile for Jenn Cirrincione   Email Jenn Cirrincione   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jenn Cirrincione

Ahhhh abortion. Sensitive subject. I have several views on this, and I, too, ride the fence. Life is not as black and white as some people like to think.

Pro-Choice:
1- It is considered unconstitutional to limit one's right to smoke tobacco or consume alcohol even though, potentially, it could harm others. We all know how well prohibition went over. I shudder to think what a country would be like to live in where we cease to have control of our own medical care? I dislike smoking, and I think it's a disgusting habit- but it doesn't make a person bad, it's still their right to do so and HOPEFULLY they will do so responsibly. Just because a percentage of those utilizing abortion will do so irresponsibly, i.e. use as birth control, does not call for illegalization.
2- Restrictions are ludicrous. How can we say only in the case of: rape, incest...etc... we cannot prove it. Besides it would bring about false accusations country-wide. Some people are unscrupulous, and if we put limitations on abortion, there will be many people falsly put on trial for abuse or rape. If rape isn't reported right away, it cannot be really proved, besides the cases that are already happening aren't always reported because of feelings of shame or guilt. Suddenly now they have to report this or cannot get an abortion? Watch them find a way.

3- Making something illegal does not stop it from happening, it only makes it more dangerous, and makes for more crime. Once again, prohibition. Abortion would go underground, black-market, and dangerous. It's a terrible thought. Many will die or be hurt in the process.  I know this arguement is something sort of like marijuana legalization offerings, make it legal, regulate and tax the heck out of it. But that's something altogether different as it is not yet legal and is a substance already regulated for medical purpose anyway.

4-Abortions are sometimes called for. Being Catholic, and never having had an abortion myself, it's hard, morally, to say that. But it's true. I'd imagine it's never easy on the mother or father, if they have a conscience about it, but sometimes to save the life of the mother, or prevent a baby from entering the world with a horrid life-threatening cancer or other illness it is needed.

Pro-life:
1- Where are the men's rights? When do they get a say-so? Maybe they want to 'elevate the fetus'. Maybe they would take the baby and raise it if the mother couldn't. There should be some protection for them as well.

2- The origin of abortion laws are recently discovered to be unfounded. Roe v. Wade, the ever popular descision turning case and it's sister case Doe v. somebody I cannot at the moment recall, were said to be scams and enlargements of the truth to overturn state abortion laws. One woman, I believe it was the Doe case, said she never even wanted  an abortion, and documents were forged. If this is found to be true, perhaps we should rethink our laws and reopen these cases.

3- Some women give reason for abortion, even partial birth, as they cannot mentally or physically handle the labor process- however most abortions, if not all, induce labor as to access the fetus. So the option almost seems ridiculous.

4- Amniocentesis is a process by which a needle extracts placenta/fetal fluid and tests it for gene deformities. Sometimes, parents can use this to decide whether or not to have the child if it's unhealthy from the womb. However, sometimes the process is incorrect, or those who may posess the possiblility to have a deformity may NEVER develop it! What a chance to take, why even risk it? You could have a beautiful child.

There are just a few final words I have on this. Morally, we as human beings have an obligation to do the right thing in the end. To be true to human life and make a choice we can truly live with in the end. If you feel that your fetus is a life, can you live with the choice to kill life? If you use it as birth control, just because you can, can you live with that? We all need to decide this for ourselves, but that is really the point, it is our body, and everyone still deserves that choice.

"I keep looking, looking for something more." Sara Evans

Opeth
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23 posted 01-23-2003 12:30 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Why argue over this matter? It is illogical to do so.

Abortion and legality ~ non-issue; let it be legal, if you happen to think it is wrong, don't utilize the service. If you are a woman and you do not want to give birth to a child and desire to abort it, do so. Why should that matter to anyone else, but her and her own loved ones? It shouldn't.

It is only when we as a single or group{s} of people, inject personal beliefs (especially religious), political idealogies, and moralistic viewpoints into this subject matter, that the issue becomes charged, polarizing, and ultimately destructive.

Live your own life and quit worrying about what another woman does with her own body.  

[This message has been edited by Opeth (01-23-2003 12:34 PM).]

hush
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24 posted 01-23-2003 01:12 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Opeth-

'Abortion and legality ~ non-issue; let it be legal, if you happen to think it is wrong, don't utilize the service. If you are a woman and you do not want to give birth to a child and desire to abort it, do so. Why should that matter to anyone else, but her and her own loved ones? It shouldn't.'

To a lot of people, that's like saying "well, let murder be legal, just don't practice it." I'm not comfortable with taking an extreme stand like that, but I can definitely see and even, to limited extent, agree with that type of logic.


Just one other thing I wanted to point out... I get really sick really fast of hearing the "It's okay for rape and incest" argument... why is it only okay when it's not the woman's fault? This, to me, indicates that abortion rights are tied much more closely with whether a woman is acting according to a moral standard than to the sanctity of a child's life. Give me a break.. is a life less valuable when it is produced by an unwilling act? You can't have your cake and eat it too... either it's about a baby's life, or it's about a woman's actions. This attitude is so pervasive that it's become a chorus, a dogma. If it's not the woman's fault, then she should be able to abort... but not if she made the conscious choice. Why?

Like I said, I do ride the fence, and I don't feel comfortable with drawing a line when it comes to another woman's body, but I have more respect for someone who makes a stand one way or another (or refuses to make a stand either way) than someone who likes to make one stand one day, and another stand another day.

*gets off soapbox*
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