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Passions in Poetry

Ok... let's see who's brave.. lol

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Local Rebel
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0 posted 09-03-2001 05:09 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

an excerpt from my upcoming site update:

Abortion



Theology



The book by which conservative Christian pro-lifers have espoused faith says that causing a miscarriage is not murder. The whole Pro-Life argument is predicated upon ' thou shalt not kill'

Kill what? Nothing? Not even a fly?

What does that commandment mean? Of course it means not to kill a human being in cold blood. A better translation from Hebrew would be 'Thou shalt not murder.'  The Mosaic Law is merely summarized in the Ten Commandments. As it is expanded throughout the course of the Old Testament it is clear this passage is talking about first degree murder of a human being.

The Fundamentalist Christian Pro-Life theology assumes though, this passage applies to a pre-born fetus. Which is in their eyes the same as a full term human being.

But, if this is the case then why did this God not write it in His book? In Exodus it says:

quote:
"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." Exodus 21:22-25


So if a man accidentally kills a pregnant woman, that man should be condemned for committing murder. However, if he only kills the fetus - that is, if she miscarries - he is not condemned for murder. Clearly, then, God does not consider the pre-born fetus as being the same as a human being, in which case the Commandment of "Thou Shalt Not Kill (a human)" does not apply.

(It should be noted here that the most adamant pro-life proponents will claim 'miscarriage' means go into labor early and deliver a baby pre-maturely.  However -- this seems to be a rather convenient explanation considering 'miscarry' has never in history meant delivering early.)

Job says he would have been better off to be terminated as a fetus:

quote:
"Why then hast Thou brought me out of the womb? Would that I had died and no eye had seen me! I should have been as though I had not been, carried from womb to tomb." Job 10:18-19


In Ecclesiastes, Solomon declares much of life is futile. He writes repeatedly if life is good we should be thankful. But when it's not, he makes some interesting statements:

quote:
"If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, `Better the miscarriage than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.'" Ecclesiastes 6:3-5


This is a clear quality of life argument. He, like Job, makes the point that it would in some cases be better to abort than to bring a child into a miserable life. He even goes further here:

quote:
"Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 4:1-3


Here, the man to whom God gave the world's greatest wisdom (according to this sacred book) puts forth the idea that when life is miserable it is better to be ended or prevented.

This is a strong argument that Biblically speaking quality of a life is of paramount importance.  One could even extrapolate that the Bible supports ending a pregnancy in the face of a life without quality.

But the Bible neither condemns or supports abortion at all. Fundamentalist Christian leaders use verses out of context -- in the same way done here to support abortion -- to support their views against abortion.  They will, however, maintain they have the exclusive right to speak for God.

The early Christian Church at one time actually allowed the practice of abortion up to 90 days after conception. The Church followed Aristotlian principle that the 'ensoulment' did not take place until then. The belief was that a human male was ensouled after 40 days of gestation and the female after 90 days.

Seventh century CE, a series of penitentials were written by Theodore, organizer of the English church. These listed several sins, with the penance an offender must observe in punishment for the sin. Ironically "sins" which prevented conception had more severe penalties than abortion.

These included:

  • coitus interruptus (withdrawal of the penis prior to ejaculation)

  • oral sex or anal sex

  • sterilization


Oral intercourse required from 7 years to a lifetime of penance; abortion required only 120 days.

In a case of a monk who had arranged for his lover to have an abortion Pope Innocent III decided the monk was not guilty of homicide if the fetus was not "animated."

In the 13th century he said the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of "quickening" - which, according to him, was when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. After this so-called ensoulement, abortion was considered murder; before this occurred though it was a lesser offence, because it terminated only potential human life, not human life.

Biology



It is a fact that every person begins as a single cell. Oxygen and food alone are needed for it to grow into a full term human. (oh and a nice woman to be the host.) That person never existed before and will never exist again. The 46 chromosomes contained in that single cell will determine the entire physiology of the person it has the potential to become.

There is no scientific doubt that when the sperm and ovum meet to form a single cell a unique life form has been added to the bio-diversity of the planet. Previously this was the only way an individual could be developed. Cloning, however, has changed that picture.

But, the ovum was alive before. The mother, from birth, carried inside her all the eggs she would ever have the potential for carrying to term. And yet everyone agrees that the ovum is not a human life.

The father produces thousands of sperm per minute. The sperm are alive. The live until they cannot meet with an ovum. Everyone agrees that the sperm is not a human life.

Some people feel the transition to human life happens when the fetus loses its gill slits and tail and begins to "look like" a baby, or when the fetus becomes viable, (i.e. able to live outside the womb), or when its brain has developed to a particular degree. Hints of consciousness have been found in 7-month-old fetuses and measured brain-wave patterns similar to dreaming at 8 months gestation.

The medical profession appears to follow the viability criteria. Medical societies enforce regulations prohibiting abortions after (typically) 20 or 21 weeks of pregnancy. The US Supreme Court also seems to have used viability as a significant event; it allows states to prohibit abortions after viability for a wide range of reasons.

Some believe that the fetus becomes a human being only after it has been delivered and is breathing on its own. They may be reluctant to consider a fetus that is about to be delivered as human, because of the resulting "slippery slope" problem that would criminalize abortions at gradually earlier stages of pregnancy.

So... there is no compromise or easy answer.

A cell is not a full term human. If a woman decides to eliminate a pregnancy in the early stages..... It may be a sad event but it is not murder. Sad.. because it signifies a moment of what might have been had the world been a different place.

Are abortions desirable? No. Should they be encouraged? Certainly not as a means of simple birth control.

I actually researched this subject several years back and on re-reading some of the research sites realized that what i've written borders on plagiarism from the following sites(so I have a good memory!):



"Today, I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.
-- Adolf Hitler (Reichstag speech, 1936)


[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (edited 09-04-2001).]

Brad
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1 posted 09-04-2001 01:44 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Wow, some really interesting stuff here.

Still other issues that bother me more:

1. Government funding (I think it's necessary).

2. Parental consent (I think it's necessary).

3. Freedom of non-violent protest (I think it should be allowed as much as possible).

I'm not sure if this is too far off topic but I was reading about Mill the other day and he argued that marriages should be forbidden unless the couple could show the ability to support a family. Otherwise, they would be a burden on society.

Brad
Local Rebel
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2 posted 09-04-2001 02:13 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Government funding should pass the same means testing as any other government provided health care -- if that's what you mean I agree.

Freedom of assembly/speech -- yep -- have to have it as long as everyone remembers where their rights end -- at the point someone else's begins.  Blocking sidewalks and accosting women in their cars in parking lots are not 'peaceful' protest in my book.  Publishing lists of doctors -- questionable -- including their home address -- invasion of privacy.

Parental notification -- absolutely disagree -- can't think of any good reason why it's necessary.  Plenty of reasons not to.

Means testing for marriage?  The notion of means testing for having children isn't a new one -- but going all the way back to marriage... I couldn't see that under any circumstances -- reproductive rights tampering is trecherous enough.

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


3 posted 09-04-2001 02:35 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

If someone under eighteen is allowed to make this decision without parental notification, it seems to me that they should also be responsible enough to be given the vote.

I really think the above is well written by the way. It helps that I already agree with the position but on first read, I found it thouroughly persuasive. If I have the time, I'll try to nitpick but right now, great job!

Brad
serenity blaze
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4 posted 09-04-2001 07:11 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Sorry...I find just the topic of conversation ludicrous. Not to be sexist...but let's see who is brave????

I walked through the lines of protest in front of the Delta Women's Clinic on St. Charles Ave. in New Orleans in April of 1986.
I exercized my right of choice, knowing full well that those outside, no matter if we were in agreement or not, also exercized their rights of protest. And--I defend the rights of both. But as to bravery...hmmm...that is something I still ponder. And? It's a self-judgement that I live with...but right now? it's late..or early, depending, I suppose, on if you've slept...(pssst...that was an intended sarcasm not without relevance)

I think a better question is can morality be legislated?

Local Rebel
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5 posted 09-04-2001 11:48 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

well serenity if you don't like the 'title' I suppose that's one thing..  but please clarify -- is it the title you find ludicrous or the topic of abortion?

if it's the title you dislike--I chose it because most people treat it as the third rail and will not only not discuss it - but won't even consider formulating an opinion on it -- as fundamentalists and pro-life activism continues to put pressure on conservative politicians the supreme court landscape will become more and more anti-roe v. wade -- this is a major front on the horizon--again--so what is ludicrous about discussing it?

Brad -- I can sympathize with the intent but there are many emancipated minors who are not afforded the opportunities of adulthood -- and even some adults -- for instance 18 year olds who are old enough to vote -- aren't old enough to drink... I don't see how endangering the well being of a minor with requiring parental notification by tying the proposition to an extraneous issue like voting rights comes into play -- I think that would be an excellent topic for discussion though.

Thanks for the compliments -- I did read the sites listed above about three years ago with scant notes -- I was appalled to find how much of the original documents I nearly reproduced -- whole sentences in some cases -- I still need to do some more re-writing before I publish.
serenity blaze
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6 posted 09-04-2001 04:44 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Thanks for the clarification Reb..ya know I love ya, but I WAS confused. sigh..no prob.  
hush
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since 05-27-2001
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Ohio, USA


7 posted 09-04-2001 09:33 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

I don't think hitting theology and biology can really cover this subject- what about psychology? I admittedly am not well educated on the subject of abortion, but I am aware of a certain post-abortion depression women go through. There are also moral ramifications outside the biblical sources you cover- not all pro-lifers are die-hard Christians.

I think you did a very thorough job presenting your side of the issue, or rather, the parts your presented, but there's more to the whole picture here.

I eat only sleep and air -Nicole Blackman

serenity blaze
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8 posted 09-05-2001 04:37 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Hush...I agree with you. Having been there, and done that...I can tell you that the extent of my "counseling" was the presentation of a plastic womb with fetus...
"This is how you look now..." and walla...they pop the fetus out, and?
"This is how you will look afterwards."

No one mentioned that I would grieve.
No one mentioned that my body would go into hormonal shock.
No one took any psychological profile to even try to gauge whether or not I could handle the results of "my choice."
No one told me that I would have nightmares a decade and a half later---
of a lost baby crying, comfortless.
No one mentioned that when I did finally hold my first born, that I would burst into tears, thinking of my first conceived.

And all of this said, one would think that I am no longer pro choice. I was pro choice then and remain so now. I'm not one to kick the door shut AFTER I have gone through.

But I have, on occasion been asked, by some who were considering the same "option"--"what should I do?"  I told all three the same thing--either way, they would have to live with the results of their decision the rest of their lives--and they should think long and hard about as to which result is the easiest for THEM to live with.

As for parental consent, I have a daughter. And of course ideally she would confide in me in such a circumstance. But if for whatever reason she felt she couldn't? I would prefer she have a safer method than a coat hanger.

And as for government funding? I have long been appalled that Mifepristone, or RU-486 was so vehemently opposed in this country for so long. I am even more appalled that sex education is still vehemently opposed in many public schools.

So...where do I stand on this issue? Pro-choice. Absolutely. Abortion has been around for as long as there have been desperate women, and will continue to be around, legislature approved or not. But even being pro-choice, I also understand that I made a bad choice for ME. Nor would I ever presume to make that choice for anyone else.

And Reb? I have to tell you, the topic line of discussion raised some emotional issues for me. Obviously. Because of the day that I went there, and the fact that I walked through a protesting crowd, many women holding babies to block my way---I was called "brave." But it's been a toss up for me as to which was braver, that, or to raise the child alone. So forgive the quills of this porcupine. (They are, after all, a defense mechanism. So is the stench of a skunk, but I've had enough bravery for one night...lol)

Peace to all...damn I wish I could sleep sometimes.  
Local Rebel
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9 posted 09-05-2001 05:00 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

hush -- I don't disagree -- there are other things to be said about the topic but is it up to me to say it all?  I'm very well aware of atheists for life and feminists for life -- I spent a lot of time discussing this issue with someone who was both.  So, I know most of the arguments there are.

It's important to consider this subject though because as more justices retire (and there are 4 coming up soon) the country is in a position to pack the court with some rather worrisome judges -- the arguments of athiests and feminists for life are so obscure you aren't even prepared to present them -- and probably not many are -- most people in this country favor choice but are ill equiped to discuss the issue especially with the Pro-Life Conservative Christian types who are militant on the issue and spout rhetoric containing the word 'murderer' in every other sentence.

I have no delusion that I'm ever going to persuade anyone on this issue in one direction or another.  However -- if, by preaching to the choir I can give them a few verses to sing -- that's worthwhile.

Another issue that I've completely left out in this essay is that the real problem most conservatives have with abortion is the loss of male control over women -- but that's a futile point to belabor in my opinion.

Serenity -- to love one does not require agreement -- I sympathize with your anguish and I will just say -- being pro-choice does not mean being pro-abortion.  And -- in defense of the people who were there for you and didn't tell you what you would feel years from now -- all I can say is -- how would they know?  Many women have never looked back and have no regrets whatsoever -- but, I do agree that people need to talk about their experiences -- people are too quiet about this.

On the issue of parental notification -- I would hope also my daughter would talk to me -- but I don't think the government can legislate family communication -- and abortion isn't the only medical procedure that does not require parental consent.

And sleep -- sleep is for sissies...  

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (edited 09-05-2001).]

Brad
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10 posted 09-05-2001 12:33 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I'm not speaking for anybody else here but, as a man, I've been through this. My mistake was not making my intentions clear (I said, "Let's make sure and then we'll talk. Hell, I was 22.) In retrospect, I see my mistakes, my lack of commitment to a woman that I truly loved. Her insecurity and my unwillingness to make a decision caused it to happen.

I can't change it back and I wouldn't if I could (I have Lynne now) but, damn it, I don't want someone else telling me how to make or unmake my mistakes. Certainly not the government.

I have to live with this but, psychologically, it has to be the parents who make the decision, not the government.

And it has to be adults.

Brad

Local Rebel
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11 posted 09-06-2001 04:54 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well I can certainly sympathize with that scenario Brad -- been there before too -- only in my case I never new anything about it until a good ten years later -- her motivations were more career oriented.

She would say -- if she was participating in this debate -- that abortions would be totally unnecessary if we didn't have a patriarchal society that views women as 'weak' and childbearing and child care as a weakness.  And I would have to say she had some pretty convincing arguments -- although I think she was even at a loss as to how to change things for the better.

On the issue of parental notification -- I have to bring up a couple of other scenarios -- if a child notifies the parent of a pregnancy and the parent has the authority to make the decision there will be girls having babies that don't want them -- or having abortions that don't want them -- the whole point of roe v. wade was that it is the woman's body and therefore -- her choice -- I think in the case of an emancipated minor there should be some mandatory psychological help provided for her to help her in the process of making a decision and then dealing with it afterward -- but -- it's still up to her -- and up to her if she wants to involve her parents/gaurdians or not.

just for those with nothing better to do -- I've added a section on Philosophy to my website http://www.geocities.com/nighthawke700/philosophy.htm

later

rwood
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Tennessee


12 posted 09-06-2001 11:04 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Hints of consciousness have been found in 7-month-old fetuses and measured brain-wave patterns similar to dreaming at 8 months gestation.


Speaking from my own personal experience..My daughter was born at 23 weeks gestation. 2 weeks after the legal abortion limit. She came on her own accord. A perfectly normal and healthy baby. She had all the features of a (baby). Hair, lashes, nails, ten fingers and toes..etc. And a temper! 2 lbs. 6 oz. A twin to be exact. But I was unable to carry her twin.
With all medical and scientific studies and fact aside, along with all religious beliefs. I have one question that has always haunted me in this debate. (If I cannot will my child to live, then how can I will it to die?)

And believe me, there is no judgement on others choices or decisions. I fully recognize and support anyone's personal decisions.  So please do not think I am bashing the Pro Choice or uplifting Pro Life.

It is just a question from my own personal experience about life. That has nothing to do with my own (choice) if you will. Nothing to do with religion or law or anything controllable by man. I had no control over what became my daughter. She had a 5% chance of survival.

The doctors could not do anything to save my child. She exists today because of something? Science fails to explain, for there is no explaination as to why she is here.  She just is. And a fetus she was not at the time of birth. She cried and pitched a fit so scientifically viable she was. So I'm wondering if the info provided to the public is somewhat false.  The only thing different about her besides her tiny existence, was that her eyes were still sealed (like a kittens). Which many do not know that this is fact. Which she opened two days later, never even having to go on a resperator, and saw the world for the first time.  She changed my life, and my ways of thinking. And opened my eyes to the fact, that we will never know everything, and we are not always as strong as the weakest being.

I do not believe that anything on this topic should be oppressed or aggravated into a frenzy by religion or preference. It is a fact of life, since the beginning of time. But I believe my question is valid. And I will stand by that.

[This message has been edited by rwood (edited 09-06-2001).]

Local Rebel
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13 posted 09-06-2001 11:53 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I think you bring up a legitimate point that's been touched on by serentiy as well -- in this debate it's important to know the answers to two questions --

"What are the moral implications of abortion?"

"What are the legal implications of abortion?"

I don't think there is a natural tendancy for people to detangle these questions when they discuss this very emotional issue.

Fortunatly -- all of my surviving children were full term deliveries or c-sections so I never had to go through a preemie scenario but one of my brother's girls was born about 3 months prematurely and survived... close to 100 thousand dollars later she came home and is a vibrant intelligent child...

It's very difficult to imagine what life would be like without our children once we have them -- and personally -- I've always felt the viability criteria should be the legal limits on this issue -- and that's what the justices in roe v. wade actually intended -- and as you pointed out your daughter was delivered 2 weeks after the legal limit -- but what's unfortunate is becasue of the language of the benchmark case abortions are still allowable for just about any reason after the court sanctioned limits on viability.

This is where the issue around the 'partial-birth' abortion (as called by anti-abortion activists) heats up.

If I understand though -- you seem to be saying even though, for you, the question of abortion seems unthinkable -- you don't want a legislative body making that decision for you?

Local Rebel
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14 posted 09-07-2001 12:01 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Since it's been said that all of the issues haven't been discussed here I'm going to post an excerpt from a conversation with a person who is no longer able to join us here:

quote:

As an Athiest (pro-life) my most profound consternation is the 'Christian' viewpoint -- or fundamentalists of any other religion -- that abortion is wrong.

I'll get to why I think it is wrong later.

As an Athiest I observe people every day who say things like 'God's will be done' as they inject themselves in the middle of the process to proceed to do god's will.

If there is an omnipotent, omnipresent being who has a 'master plan' then how is it that an Abortion doctor can thwart his plan? If this god has created some immortal soul that's meant to occupy a specific human vessel won't HE prevent the doctor and the mother from conducting an abortion?
On the other hand. If an abortion of the fetus is conducted may HE not just send this immortal soul elsewhere?

I am aghast at the Christian Right's arguments because they so dreadfully undermine what I feel are the very good reasons not to abort a pregnancy.

From my point of view, all of this is next to impossible. The mere fact that we exist at all against such astronomically high odds is in itself a miracle. A random, chaotic miracle. That any life ever evolved at all out of the primordial stew when this planet was born eaons ago is mathematically next to impossible. In fact, it's so close to being impossible that it was probably ineveitable... but that's another story.

To me, the travesty of Abortion is that it thwarts a natural selection of genes that combine in new unique ways to form an individual with potential. The combinations and potential combinations that will never occur because of an aborted pregnancy are not just a loss of life to the cell, or fetus. It diminishes us all.

Next, as a Feminist, I find that the notion that a woman seeking power in a male dominated society must give up her pregnancy -- because to have a child to care for would in some way weaken her -- is not liberating women at all. It only empowers the patriarchal society that dictates that for women to succeed they must become like men. They must be able to have sex without consequences. They must be un-encumbered and maverics.

Abortion to enhance the quality of life of the mother or to avoid a poor quality of life for the child is just giving in to the hard and masculine. It says the nurturing side of humanity is weak. To be a woman is to nurture -- it is our nature -- and it is the strength of humanity that has allowed us to survive, evolve, and become creatures with the intelligence and creativity to have an internet.

To destroy a life in favor of this paradigm is to give control to men!  It reinforces the notion that violence is the solution to problems.


[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (edited 09-07-2001).]

Apachecat906
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15 posted 09-07-2001 03:57 PM       View Profile for Apachecat906   Email Apachecat906   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Apachecat906

I have one thing to say and that is to RWood and only because I can not contain my emotions.  Please forgive my digression from what seems to be a logical and thought provoking conversation.

RWood--your story is, in a word, beautiful.  You touched my heart deeply by sharing.  What an amazing thing life is. In the four minutes it took to read your post I've reconsidered the life of the child I brought into this world six months ago, the one that I'm carrying now, and my own.  Thank you
rwood
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16 posted 09-07-2001 10:13 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Apatchecat906:  Thank you! For the miracle of a positive connection through the words of a pure stranger. To rethink, or change direction in the face of this topic, is pure bravery. I salute your courage to do so! It is the highest honor, but still I cannot take the credit for your decision to reconsider. (Something) else is very much at work here.  And I hope it continues to work in your life in the most rewarding ways. As this has been the most rewarding day since my own miracle arrived! My words fail my feelings completely as all I can write is (Thank you)
rwood
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17 posted 09-07-2001 11:25 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

LR:

If I understand though -- you seem to be saying even though, for you, the question of abortion seems unthinkable -- you don't want a legislative body making that decision for you?

Okay, this is it. This is where I will probably get beaten down by public outcry.
You have read my first post, and I am still deeply struck by Apachecat906. Now here's the other side of the coin for what it's worth.

It is unthinkable for (Me) but in no way would I expect anyone to carry a child, especially in shame or hopelessness as a seed that grows within them to remind them they are female, taken advantage of, repressed in ignorance of youth, rape, molestion and any other horrible happening to the females of our society. And that does include my own Miracle of a daughter!

For even though I am firm in the belief that life is precious, I cannot choose that for anyone any more than I can choose what someone will eat for the next nine months! Society does not paint a pretty picture for us to love ourselves as we are and then carry a child. It does not provide much courage, strength or support for unwed mothers, career mothers, or otherwise. So I feel the issue is pushed from the getgo towards desperation, and hasty decisions.

So yes, No legislature needs to remind any woman that she is female for the rest of her life by sentencing her to motherhood. She must be able to choose. For some of the reasons we become pregnant are not our choice.

Education is failing us. For even if we become educated, and use a form of protection and think that our relationship with the father is the strongest in the world, mistakes still happen so therefore it makes the female appear even more weak in the face of (But I told you so. You have been taught better than this. You knew better than to do this) So the Scarlett Letter is still pinned upon us.

Partial Birth Abortions? I feel strongly against for reasons I have already mentioned. There has to be a point of realization of mistake or choice. However hard it is to choose, it must be done as soon as possible. Simply because the partial birth abortions (graphic) are surviving in some instances. But how it will be determined as to what (Soon as possible) is, I'm afraid I'm the worst to decide. That may be where we will have to fight, within the legislature, within our hearts, and hopefully someday in an undivided fashion just as we did the vote. That is what amazes me. We stuck together to vote for a man, but yet we divide when it comes to our own womb! And I believe so highly in God that My daughter belongs to him as far as I'm concerned, but God never gave me the right to throw stones at any one. For my experience was a double edged sword of reality. If You completely relate God's Will in the life of one of my Daughters, Then I would have to relate The Death of her twin the same. I don't think God did that! It would be easy for me to use God as an excuse or an example, but it truly would undermine the miracle of life.

I had to write in return of my first post to remain honest. I still stand by my question, my faith, my belief, myself, and mostly my daughter.


[This message has been edited by rwood (edited 09-08-2001).]

desert fox
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since 11-29-2001
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18 posted 11-29-2001 03:06 PM       View Profile for desert fox   Email desert fox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for desert fox

wanted to start out by saying thank you to all who have contributed to this thread, it is a controversial subject and not easy to talk about, so yes I do understand the subject line, many people shy away from the topic because they are afraid to defend their position.  
I might not be able to defend mine, as I do not have the extensive research and photographic memory as you do LR, but I would have to agree with RWood. If I cannot will my baby to live, how can I will it to die?
I believe that we have the right to abstain, and in lieu of that use 10 kinds of birth control at the same time if we want to, but I do not believe we have the right to take the life of a baby. If it has the substance to make it out of the womb if left uninterupted, then we do not have the right to interupt its life.
now quality of life is something else. What I believe you have done here is mix 2 topics, abortion and quality of life.  

If an adult does not have the right to terminate his or her life just because the quality of it is bad, then why would an adult have the right to decide that for a fetus?
ok, gotta go, but will come back as soon as I get another chance
desert fox
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since 11-29-2001
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19 posted 11-29-2001 03:20 PM       View Profile for desert fox   Email desert fox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for desert fox

oh one more thing I forgot to address, if the government saw fit to pass legislation that made it legal to kill another person...would you?
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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20 posted 11-29-2001 08:27 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

sigh...again, I refer to personal experience. My thirteen year old cousin committed suicide, because she was pregnant. Ironically enough, she blew her brains out on Father's day. She did not just kill herself, and her child, I promise you I witnessed the death of a family. Still not recovering. Twenty years later.

There is much to think about here. And I still maintain it is a personal decision and should remain so. But damned if I don't feel she would have felt she had another option.

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


21 posted 11-30-2001 12:05 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Serenity,

I don't see a strong gap here. rwood is quite clear in his position and desert fox seems to agree with him (although admittedly it could be the one sentence). It may be morally wrong to have an abortion, but most people here don't seem to want to turn back the clock. LR's distinction is clear for the majority here.

I think.

I like rwood's point:

"For even though I am firm in the belief that life is precious, I cannot choose that for anyone any more than I can choose what someone will eat for the next nine months! Society does not paint a pretty picture for us to love ourselves as we are and then carry a child. It does not provide much courage, strength or support for unwed mothers, career mothers, or otherwise. So I feel the issue is pushed from the getgo towards desperation, and hasty decisions."

-------------------------------

Desert fox,

The answer to your second question is yes. Given no explicit contexts, I can easily come up with times when killing is necessary.

Brad

[This message has been edited by Brad (edited 11-30-2001).]

Irish Rose
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since 04-06-2000
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22 posted 11-30-2001 02:05 PM       View Profile for Irish Rose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Irish Rose

Hello.

I respect your right to your beliefs. I’m certainly
not afraid to offer my own and my input since
that is what the subject calls for.  

But let me offer something I experienced. Not myself, personally,
for I have never had an abortion.

But I knew a man, the best friend I ever had. A kind, gentle
soul. His girlfriend became pregnant, 20 years ago.  He drove her
for the abortion, paid for it, and eventually they never saw
one another again.  He didn’t give it much thought throughout
the years. But he wondered if he would ever father a child.

Then at age 40, he married and his wife became pregnant.
It didn’t hit him until he saw the sonagram.

Yes, it was and still is legal.  It is a choice available.
Yes, it is thought to alleviate pain and suffering and make
a person’s life more pleasant and tolerable.

But this man began to experience pain, regret, guilt
and sorrow.  His tears were real tears, there was no
going back, no “undoing the choice”

The pain of “what if” continued into intensity when his beautiful daughter was born.
His daughter, who brings him more joy and love than anything
he ever dreamed possible from another.  But would the other
child have done that if allowed to be born?  He felt he had
failed that child….because it was inconvenient.

Does God consider the fetus human life? At what point is it “human”
and when does the soul come into being?

May I quote a verse, as I noticed you have?

Jeremiah 1:5 Jeremiah 1 Jeremiah 1:4-6 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you
were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

He knew who?  Someone who wasn’t even yet a fetus?
It is my personal belief that He did indeed write it in the book.
Food for thought.

Kathleen (Kay)
"When red-haired girls scamper like roses over the rain-green grass, and the sun drips honey."
Laurie Lee

serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


23 posted 11-30-2001 09:24 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Brad--I'm sorry I was unclear as to the point of my input there--it was meant to not be an opinion either for or against parental consent, but a sad offering of fact of what can happen when a child who is bearing a child has no one to turn to for counsel.

This issue, I fear is too personal for me to continue to discuss. So I politely bow out, as there have been issues introduced that I simply prefer not to address. I will be happy to discuss my personal feelings via e mail, because I still feel, that unless you have been there, or have the capablility of finding yourself in that predicament, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW.

But I leave you with this Gloria Steinem quote:

"If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrement."

[This message has been edited by serenity (edited 12-01-2001).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


24 posted 12-01-2001 03:56 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Serenity,

"I'm sorry I was unclear as to the point of my input there--it was meant to not be an opinion either for or against parental consent, but a sad offering of fact of what can happen when a child who is bearing a child has no one to turn to for counsel."

--I guess it's my turn to apologize, I didn't see your comment in that way either, I didn't think you were commenting on parental consent. I just thought it was important to stress that one can be personally, morally against abortion and still believe that it is a decision best left to the individual, not the government. For me, the lack of counsel, that she felt she had no other way to go, is one tragic aspect that, I think, we should try to change -- it doesn't do much to say, "Well, you shouldn't have had sex in the first place when you're already pregnant."

--I don't know how to change this but I think it's something we should talk about.

--If you want to discuss this more, I'm fine with e-mails but not always the most consistent in keeping up the exchange. A personality defect.    

"unless you have been there, or have the capablility of finding yourself in that predicament, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW."

--This may be true, I don't know, but I don't see where this gets us. Men and men, women and women, men and women agree and disagree on many things. I'm not saying there is no divide, there is, but I don't see any value in privileging one's opinion only on the basis of sex (unless you mean that you don't want others -- men or women -- telling you what to do when it's you).  

--It's a dangerous path to take because we've tried it in the other direction (men over women) and know that that doesn't work.

But I leave you with this Gloria Steinem quote:

"If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrement."

--Perhaps so, but it neglects the fact that many women are also against abortion. You find yourself in a strange position of arguing that your opinion (whatever that may be) is the correct view for all women, and those women who disagree are therefore misled, have false consciousness, are duped by men or whatever to keep this separation intact.

--It's far better to assume people are different from you and try to persuade them to your view.

--It's messy, it's difficult, it's complex, but I'm not fond of the idea that anybody has a biological tendency toward any specific opinion. They may, I don't know, but I do know that this is a weapon that far too often backfires.

--I'll leave it at that.

Brad

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