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Passions in Poetry

The abortion debate??

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Opeth
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25 posted 01-23-2003 01:17 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"To a lot of people, that's like saying "well, let murder be legal, just don't practice it." I'm not comfortable with taking an extreme stand like that, but I can definitely see and even, to limited extent, agree with that type of logic."

~ If that be so, then they are looking at this issue in an illogical manner. There is no comparison between aborting a fetus that lives inside a person to killing a person already born. That fetus belongs to (actually is an extension or part of) the woman who is carrying it. The act of murder involves taking the life of another individual who does not belong to the one commiting the act. Again, why be concerned over what another woman does with her body with regards to this issue?  

I find it rather odd that one would think my stand is "extreme." I believe it to be "right down the middle" and the natural solution to ending this debate.  

[This message has been edited by Opeth (01-23-2003 01:20 PM).]

neveah5
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26 posted 01-23-2003 02:43 PM       View Profile for neveah5   Email neveah5   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit neveah5's Home Page   View IP for neveah5

I have to agree with Opeth.

People are going to have their opinions on what is "right" or "wrong". Nobody can change what will happen by making it illegal. So why do people need to make such a deal out of what others choose to do in their lives?  One group should not be able to determine what another group can and cannot do legally. So let it be legal so those who feel the need to have an abortion can get it safely, and let those who oppose it stop making woman who choose to have abortions feel like they are wrong or commiting a crime. Everyone will find something new to go against and complain about. So I guess the hopes of that are slim
neveah5
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27 posted 01-23-2003 02:49 PM       View Profile for neveah5   Email neveah5   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit neveah5's Home Page   View IP for neveah5

"One group should not be able to determine what another group can and cannot do legally." let me put that differently.

When it comes down to abortion, one extremist group should not be able to decide for other woman around the country whether they have to keep a child or not. That choice should be available, as it is now. It is already regulated quite strictly. It would be one thing if a woman was being forced into aborting a fetus. But its a choice. a choice every woman has.  

I as a woman would never choose abortion, but I am greatful that we have that choice available.
Opeth
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28 posted 01-23-2003 02:52 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"When it comes down to abortion, one extremist group should not be able to decide for other woman around the country whether they have to keep a child or not. That choice should be available, as it is now. It is already regulated quite strictly. It would be one thing if a woman was being forced into aborting a fetus. But its a choice. a choice every woman has."

~ There is much wisdom to be found in those words.  

neveah5
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29 posted 01-23-2003 03:00 PM       View Profile for neveah5   Email neveah5   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit neveah5's Home Page   View IP for neveah5

Oh I hope your not pickin fun at me Opeth

Opeth
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30 posted 01-23-2003 03:02 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

No "pickin" on my part ~ I was most sincere in what I said.

Jenn Cirrincione
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31 posted 01-23-2003 03:24 PM       View Profile for Jenn Cirrincione   Email Jenn Cirrincione   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jenn Cirrincione

-----  It is already regulated quite strictly.----

I'm not so sure about this, now. Do you mean because it's legal and safe? Because how is it regulated so strictly? I beleive women can get this procedure done pretty much no matter what their reason, right?

"I keep looking, looking for something more." Sara Evans

serenity blaze
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32 posted 01-23-2003 04:03 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I have stated my views on this so many times I am weary of myself. I am pro-choice. I don't feel a need to defend that either. I am, however, pleased that the abortion rate is at an all time low...thanks to the "morning after" pill.

There are some things impossible to legislate.
neveah5
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33 posted 01-23-2003 04:51 PM       View Profile for neveah5   Email neveah5   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit neveah5's Home Page   View IP for neveah5


http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/spib.html
PoetryIsLife
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34 posted 01-23-2003 06:13 PM       View Profile for PoetryIsLife   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PoetryIsLife

""When it comes down to abortion, one extremist group should not be able to decide for other woman around the country whether they have to keep a child or not. That choice should be available, as it is now. It is already regulated quite strictly. It would be one thing if a woman was being forced into aborting a fetus. But its a choice. a choice every woman has.""

I agree completely that women, men, everyone should be able to live their lifes within scope of the law, with freedom to be who they are. I'm a very open-minded, unjudgemental person, in general, but... I cannot see how a woman should have the choice to kill a life. Whether it's a fully-formed body or not, it still is a life, one that is or will be.

There may be those regulations, but I'm not sure I would see that as strict control. More on the opposite side of the pendelum.

I know everyone has their own opinions, and most people believe they are right. I think it's great people care enough to discuss their point's of veiws, with an openness of mind to further changes in opinions.

~Titus


Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
                 --Aldous Huxley

[This message has been edited by PoetryIsLife (01-23-2003 06:16 PM).]

hush
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35 posted 01-23-2003 10:50 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Opeth, by extreme stand, I meant my example, not your post.

But...

'There is no comparison between aborting a fetus that lives inside a person to killing a person already born.'

A fetus, one developed to a certain point, has a brain. It has been indicated by scientific experiments (as well as botched abortions in which fetuses didn't die immediately) that it feels pain. It has a heart that beats and lungs which, once given access to air, will breathe. I can see how one would argue that a woman's womb is under her jurisdiction, and not a state or nation's... but I simply cannot fathom how you can say there is no comparison. Let's go back to partial-birth abortions- the comment you complimented me on... they deliver everything but the baby's face and then suck out it's brain. You can't compare this to murder, when, if fully removed, the child would inhale and begin to cry?

And...

'The act of murder involves taking the life of another individual who does not belong to the one commiting the act.'

Grinning here... you've got some verbal legwork going on, but let me pose a counter-argument to you. In a patriarchal society which until very recently (and in some cultures and instances, not quite yet) treated wives as a man's personal posession, can't that argument be used to justify that I, as husband, have the right to murder my wife (err, abort? terminate?) because she belongs to me? You're treading a thin line here, and I hesitate to accept the argument that because a fetus belongs to someone, they have the right to take that life away...

of course, I also hesitate to say that I have a right to deny, or throw my voice in with the crowds that attempt to deny, other women that choice.

The moral questions involved are very trying... how far does relativism go? What is universally right or wrong? Why do the same right-wingers who champion "pro-life" initiatives plow headlong into a war which will inevitable kill people? (grinning again... but I think the hypocrisy involved is valid to criticize...)

The biggest reason I get my feet wet on the pro-choice side of that fence is that I feel that (as I mentioned earlier) the term "pro-life" has a lot more to do with "Pro-telling-everyone-else-how-to-behave-according-to-our-conservative-Christian-morals." Ain't gonna fly by me... you can't manipulate women's (or, moreover, men's) behavior by imposing upon women dire, inescaple biological consequences to their (or their boyfriends') actions.
neveah5
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36 posted 01-23-2003 11:16 PM       View Profile for neveah5   Email neveah5   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit neveah5's Home Page   View IP for neveah5

"..they deliver everything but the baby's face and then suck out it's brain. You can't compare this to murder, when, if fully removed, the child would inhale and begin to cry?"

I just had a little girl about 2 months ago..even to think about this happening breaks my heart. Then again I would think it would make any person sick to think of it. I will say, in my opionion, that this should be VERY strictly regulated and only used in situations where its a necessity (although I cant imagine a situation that desperate).

Denise
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37 posted 01-24-2003 12:57 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Abortion was never legalized. The Roe v. Wade decision threw out the laws on the books in every state that had a law or restriction, but there never was a law, per se, legalizing it. There was just a void left that allowed abortions to be performed, preventing prosecution of the act.

Back in the day (late sixties), those who pushed for the abortion laws to be thrown out did so by mounting a campaign based on lies: fake polls, fake statistics (claiming the number of women who died from illegal abortions was around 10,000 per year, when in actuality it was 200-250 per year, for instance), constantly appealing to a woman's 'right' to privacy (which is not one of the 'rights' listed in the Constitution, by the way), and in so doing, trashed the Preamble to the Constitution, which expressly states the Constitution's purpose as guaranteeing the rights of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" for "ourselves and for our posterity" (posterity = future generations). Every victim of abortion has been deprived of their right to life, as expressly stated in the Constitution.

The ultra liberal left element in society waged such a masterful media campaign, ensuring that their sinister objective was met, i.e., population control, political control of the masses, tax free cash (abortion is a cash up front procedure)for most of the "doctors" who perform abortions (there's an oxymoron since doctors take an oath "to do no harm"), harvesting human tissue, and in the case of partial-birth abortions, havesting body parts for research, after sucking out the brain, crushing the baby's head (making sure that the baby comes down the birth canal feet first, otherwise if the head came out first, it would "legally" be murder).

It's truly amazing what people can be brainwashed into considering acceptable if enough money is thrown into a media blitz, even one udergirded with lies.

Maybe we can get human fetuses declared an "endangered species", or a "species at risk" (a common cause of the ultra liberal left, for everything and anything except humans, it seems)?

Babies are killed, mothers, also victims of this well financed brainwashing scheme, live with the life-long scars of the guilt, regret and loss. Who are the winners in all of this? Not them, that's for sure. The so-called winners can be found where the power and money are found.

42 million babies and counting,(and of that number, 17 million black babies, the balance being spread out over all other races), not a "product of conception" or a "tissue mass", but human beings in the process of development, have been deprived of that right.

I hope to see the day when murder is again called murder and all future generations realize their right to life.

Opeth
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38 posted 01-24-2003 08:10 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"I can see how one would argue that a woman's womb is under her jurisdiction, and not a state or nation's... but I simply cannot fathom how you can say there is no comparison."

~ One must "step outside" from all viewpoints and what they have been taught in order to gain understanding. It can be done.

"Let's go back to partial-birth abortions- the comment you complimented me on... they deliver everything but the baby's face and then suck out it's brain. You can't compare this to murder,"

~ Partial birth abortions is a different issue, and I admit I am not "up to snuff" on this procedure. From what I do know, the child is already developed into a living being. Therefore, with what I do know about partial birth abortion, I would advocate the illegality of this process. However, if legal, it would be, as I stated earlier, the business of the woman, her loved ones, and her doctor, not mine.

"but let me pose a counter-argument to you. In a patriarchal society which until very recently (and in some cultures and instances, not quite yet) treated wives as a man's personal posession, can't that argument be used to justify that I, as husband, have the right to murder my wife (err, abort? terminate?) because she belongs to me?"

~ Non sequitur. Two completely and non-related issues, indeed.

"You're treading a thin line here, and I hesitate to accept the argument that because a fetus belongs to someone, they have the right to take that life away..."

~ Not only belongs, but more importantly is a part or extension of the woman.

"I also hesitate to say that I have a right to deny, or throw my voice in with the crowds that attempt to deny, other women that choice."

~ And with that being said, we have come full circle, back to my original opinion given.  

"Why do the same right-wingers who champion "pro-life" initiatives plow headlong into a war which will inevitable kill people? (grinning again... but I think the hypocrisy involved is valid to criticize...)"

~ I find no hypocracy here. These are two completely and separate issues. One must have or learn the ability to separate issues in order for logic to dictate, which it should.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (01-24-2003 08:13 AM).]

Spice
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39 posted 01-24-2003 09:42 AM       View Profile for Spice   Email Spice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Spice's Home Page   View IP for Spice

I think aborotion should only be allowed up until a certain time...Which, luckily, is the law in most states. Past the first tri-mester the woman having an abortion must be in a life-threatening situation and/or have consent from doctorS.

Using it as a form of birth control is wrong, yes.
However I disagree with the comment stated on the first page stating "If you don't want a baby use protection" ..... Protection doesn't always work. Even if using MULTIPLE forms.

And no, just because you are mature and responsible enought to have sex doesn't mean you should be responsible enough to have the child. (Because not everyone is mature and responsible enough to be having sex in the first place...) When I was in 8th grade there was a girl in 7th grade pregnant here....She actually had the baby! And kept it for herself! Children raising children? No...The burden is on her MOTHER! And the girl, she basically just plays house with the baby....she can't REALLY know what she is doing. You shouldn't cover up one mistake by making another. Sometimes abortions are the best. Whether it be for health reasons, emotional reasons such as rape, logical reasons such as FAR too young, etc. And none of this adoption crap either...There is still the whole idea of YOU STILL HAD A BABY! There is still alittle mini you walking around...who, later in life, may want to find you...Or who, may never GET adopted, or who may be hurt the rest of it's life wondering why it's mother didn't want him or her.....etc etc....Adoption isn't an easy way out. Those of you saying it so matter-of-factly should think about that. It isn't an easy option, it's not as logical as you may think.

It's the woman's choice. People are going to abuse this just as they abuse everything else. However, if it is made illegal, there will be ill equipped and poorly sanitized underground labs pop up everywhere where people who are desperate enough, who need it enough WILL go to and end up seriously hurting themselves.

It annoys me that people disagree with laws or practices that effect them in no way at all...and they actually fight it like crazy just to make themselves feel better cause they think they are doing something that make THEM feel better, or maybe even make them feel better as a religious person etc...

If you disagree with abortion- don't have one. But don't screw other people over that don't feel the same way you do.

Abortion is something one would never REALLY understand until he or she was REALLY slapped into that situation....Whether it by them, theirself was raped etc and felt the need to have an abortion, they were having horrible health problems and needed an abortion, or their 13, 14 year old daughter dropped to peer pressure and had sex or even worse, was raped and became pregnant....




Share Jesa, Stroke Jesa, Pet Jesa, Love Jesa.

[This message has been edited by Spice (01-24-2003 09:50 AM).]

hush
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40 posted 01-24-2003 04:27 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Opeth-

'~ One must "step outside" from all viewpoints and what they have been taught in order to gain understanding. It can be done.'

Yes, yes, I know, critical thinking, objectivity, your ever-present dogmatic assertion... but I fail to see how a critical viewpoint can accept that ending a human life, or even the zygote which will in turn become a fetus, which will in turn become a baby, cannot be at least compared to murder. You can compare just about anything to anything... I'm not saying that "It's murder, that's that..." I'm just saying that there is plenty of ground for comparison.

A fetus is a human being in progress. Aren't children the same thing? I fail to see the difference between life in utero and life delivered. It's still life... one might argue the nature of that life, and I recognize that argument as, at least, valid, although I don't accept it. You can devalue a zygote or fetus as much as you want- but the fact remains that it is still the same form of life, the same species, that all of us are. To think of it otherwise is completely counter to common sense.

'"but let me pose a counter-argument to you. In a patriarchal society which until very recently (and in some cultures and instances, not quite yet) treated wives as a man's personal posession, can't that argument be used to justify that I, as husband, have the right to murder my wife (err, abort? terminate?) because she belongs to me?"

~ Non sequitur. Two completely and non-related issues, indeed.'

I don't think so- if we're going to essentially reduce human life to property, let's make a straight call and point out where it's been done before. Until very recently, men were legally allowed to 'discipline' their wives (remember 'rule of thumb'?), and while there are situational differences (chiefly, that a woman is not inside of her husband) we're still in the same ballpark. The idea is one person having a jurisdiction over another because of where society builds fences and draws lines.

'~ Not only belongs, but more importantly is a part or extension of the woman.'

Do I have the right to kill my siamese twin? (And don't tell me it's illogical because I'll probably kill myself in the process... that's not what I'm asking and somehow I see a hedge coming. Not everyone is endowed with the exquisite common sense you have, Opeth.. )

'~ I find no hypocracy here. These are two completely and separate issues. One must have or learn the ability to separate issues in order for logic to dictate, which it should.'

Ah, you see them as seperate issues... but a pro-lifer crusades on behalf of fetal life... how can someone with the title 'pro-life' be so apt to kill? That's my point.
hush
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41 posted 01-24-2003 04:34 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Spice-

'Abortion is something one would never REALLY understand until he or she was REALLY slapped into that situation....Whether it by them, theirself was raped etc and felt the need to have an abortion, they were having horrible health problems and needed an abortion, or their 13, 14 year old daughter dropped to peer pressure and had sex or even worse, was raped and became pregnant....'

While I completely disagree with your assertion that sometimes abortion is the best choice (It's not... nobody is better off not having lived at all) I totally agree with the above. I'm one of the only people I know who never got sick of the Everlast song "What it's like"... The only way to acheive a true dialogue is to open yourself to really hearing another person's experience with open ears... understanding debases the foundation for hate... and if we could quit screaming back and forth across the spectrum, and really try to understand the things we honestly think we could never understand, maybe more people could work together to address the factors that contribute to unwanted pregnancies.

Is it gonna happen? *sigh* doubt it.

There are no Mr. Smiths in Washington.

clve527
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42 posted 01-24-2003 11:28 PM       View Profile for clve527   Email clve527   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for clve527

Who are we to judge anyone else's decision?
Opeth
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43 posted 01-25-2003 05:50 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Hush,

One could argue that there is a comparison, but looking at the issue in direct manner, I just do not see the corelation because I view the the fetus as an extension of a living person = the woman carrying the fetus, and that fetus is not a separate entity, like a being who is already born is. And to take a life that is not a part of you is murder.

I will give you this, there may come a time, in the womb, when that fetus becomes more than an extension (such as you eloquently discussed about partial birth abortion), and this is an area that I am not familiar with, and very well could compared to murder, but I don't even know if that is legal or not. However, with that being said...

the law allows for the woman to choose to abort the fetus growing inside of her. It is not my business what she does with her own fetus. And if she is abiding within the law, so be it. It is not for me to judge or to codemn, or to ridicule and scream and rant, etc. Making it a political/moral/religious/etc issue only produces a furthering of polarization between those of the opposite sides, and does for society, not a dang thing (well, except give votes to either a dem or rep ).

This does not necessarily mean that I, personally am pro-choice. It means that I accept the law and the right that a woman has over her own body, which is something none of your analogies/comparisons match.


Kellie_Cantrell
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44 posted 01-26-2003 01:17 AM       View Profile for Kellie_Cantrell   Email Kellie_Cantrell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kellie_Cantrell

I think it is choice, and that is how I feel about it. I believe that each situation is different and you have look at each situation in that situations shoes. You can't know what it is like to be raped, and then haveababy from it unless it happens to you. So I think that it sure be pure choice. Remember all choices have consequences and the consequence of abortion is usually depression or even suicide.

(`.) (`.)
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neveah5
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45 posted 01-26-2003 12:26 PM       View Profile for neveah5   Email neveah5   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit neveah5's Home Page   View IP for neveah5

there was a show on HBO showing pro life extremists, and this one guy killed 2 people outside an abortion clinic, at least one of them was an abortion doctor.  This man was sitting there saying all this stuff about how god wouldve wanted him to do it. and he can sit there and say that god hates people who kill...??? i see those people as hypocrites who used god as an excuse.  
WindSong
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46 posted 01-26-2003 01:34 PM       View Profile for WindSong   Email WindSong   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WindSong

Abortion...Pro Life? Pro choice?Abortion...A strong, preventable word. Many many people, as we've seen here either believe in or do not believe in it. I,myself, believe that it should be remained legal. Why? It's such a cruel thing though. But listen, and listen carefully. The baby is not considered a fetus until the second trimester of pregnancy. The first trimester is just the multiplying of eggs and such. Abortion should only be done within the first trimester of pregnancy, after that you are taking a life. You may be saying that this girl is a freak but what happens if you are raped? Do you want to be carrying around a rapists' baby? What happens if you are 13 and drugged? What happens if you get beaten for getting a 99 on a test by your own parents and you will be killed if they find out you are pregnant? What happens then? You carry out your pregnancy living with the horrified memories of the rape in the park tunnel, or not knowing how you were impregnated but only that you were with a group of friends and then...or you get beaten to death because you had sex on accident. Abortion is a serious thing. Outlawed in some states...But why is it that the people who are PRO LIFE blow up abortion clinics? Killing more people...I don't get that. I believe in abortion but only to the end of the first trimester. Once the second one begins......But yes, abortion should remain legal. It will keep thousands of young women from killing themselves or from being kicked out onto the streets because their OWN parents are ashamed of them. Fight all you want people, the fact still remains that abortion is like the worst possible thing in a lot of people's minds...but would you really want to carry a person's child who raped you?

Thank you....~*Kirah*~


[This message has been edited by WindSong (01-26-2003 01:38 PM).]

Local Rebel
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47 posted 01-26-2003 02:18 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Fence sitters are somewhat pro-choice by default. Being pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion -- it just means the government shouldn't decide --

More discussion on this in philosophy http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum8/HTML/000260.html

or my own archive with links to more research http://www.geocities.com/nighthawke700/abortion.htm

Technicality;  a zygote/fetus/in-utero life is not a part of the host -- it has a specific unique DNA pattern (unless it is a clone) and behaves in the woman's body much as any parasite would.  



Hate is a dead thing. Who of you would be a tomb? -Kahlil Gibran

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (01-26-2003 02:20 PM).]

defenestrate
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48 posted 02-05-2003 12:44 AM       View Profile for defenestrate   Email defenestrate   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for defenestrate

i look at this in a strictly pragmatic way, as i feel that the purpose of law is to prevent harm/death wherever possible without trying to control things that it cannot. i don't think that morality has any place in law. for those who are going to spring the "so murder's not wrong? we should let it be legal" farce, murder IS a pragmatism issue-when someone is murdered, not only are someone's freedoms snatched from them, but society is left with one less person to help it be productive-extremely simple logic.

my take on abortion is thus: womeon are going to have abortions, no matter who calls them murderers, no matter who would love to raise a little adopted baby, no matter the position of the moon, or whether the pope is staying nextdoor. they happen, and the reasons for the decision being either way are complex, and not easily quanitifiable. the difference between abortion being legal and illegal, therefore is (and this is IF you count abortion as murder) that legal, relatively "safe" clinically-performed abortions result in one death, whereas backalley abortions with poor tools and training can often result in two. not even getting into sterility from poor procedures, etc, and i don't even have to argue the pro-choice point. this is extremely simple. how much death is ok? i would say none. is less death better than more death? i'm going to stick my neck out and say, "yes, i would like to cut down on the amount of deaths". all else being equal, and life being considered a valuable thing, this is a simple answer. last i checked, at least here in the united states, church and state are supposed to be separate, and i would suspect that a poll of pro-lifers would reflect heavily that the vast majority consider this a moral issue, and one that comes from their religious beliefs. that should further bolster my point, unless you (general meaning, not a specific person) feel, as many seem to, that the constitution is a document to feign allegience to as long as it is sociologically expedient.

my person opinion: abortion sucks, but so does having to raise a child as a teenager, or having to raise the child of a rape, or being expected to carry a child to term when there are very clear-cut health risks. i HAVE had personal experience in this area (many years ago, as a teen, and i am male, so i was the "lucky" party), and i wouldn't go back, even though the relationship i tried to continue that this was a part of may have been doomed from the moment it occurred. not that i had any say, being locked up some 500 miles away, but that is another story. i don't even know why i'm volunteering personal information about this, aside from the idea that if i'm going to state an opinion, it couldn't hurt to provide a little context regarding my worldview. feel free to ignore this part and stick to the meat of my point: legal abortion is a pragmatic choice in a society that is too complicated to easily be eased with wise words of any kind.
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