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Critical Analysis #2
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I Like, inspired by Caterina's poem of the same title
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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I Like, inspired by Caterina's poem of the same title |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Waking Sunday early before dawn has yet to crack. A walk along a quiet, familiar street, concrete damp and morning gray, save for the fallen cherry blossoms cupped heavy with night’s rain. The smell of a bakery, the freshest air, clean like breaths of children and grandmas, blissed together in summer visits; more fully appreciated since the oven has cooled. The return home while the peeking sun drys the walk and tips the blossoms. Birds stabbing lawns like feathered daggers to Ceasar worms. I like; Warm crossiants with butter. The patient dripple of coffee. A newspaper’s arriving thud. The wooden squeak of stairs. You, still sleeping in my bed even after morning has arrived. [This message has been edited by Trevor (08-20-2002 08:11 AM).] |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Trev: I liked this. A few things you may want to reconsider: "clean like breaths of children and grandmas" I didn't like this line. These images seemed a bit alien to the others you describe. Perhaps having a couple of little boys, whose breaths in the morning ALWAYS require Tasmanian Devil Wild Mint Toothpaste in the morning, spoiled this line for me. The sentence fragments in the third strophe also jilted the flow, in my opinion. Perhaps you would consider: "Returning home while the peeking sun drys the walk and tips the blossoms, I walks as Birds stab lawns like feathered daggers to Ceasar worms." My choice of wording may seem a little flat, but it is the idea, rather than the particular word choice, that I believe would strengthen this strophe. I really like how the last strophe reveals why the speaker sees the morning the way he does (and not "the sky as a contusion" ... no slam intended toward hush ... I'd rather see her hand wrapped around a pen than around my throat  ). Basically, I think the speakers hopefullness (as opposed to the hopelessness in the speaker in hush's poem) as shaping his world that morning.A nice read, Trev. Thanks. Jim |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Hey Trev, I think I came away with more or less the same feelings Jim expressed. I stumbled on the clean breaths line too although not for the same reason. The wording just seemed awkward to me. Also, I would prefer to see the other stanza he mentioned corrected to be a complete sentence. There are many ways you can do this. The easiest (not necessarily the best) is just change the to I and the period near the middle to a comma. I'll leave the actual wording to you though, of course. In any case, it was a very enjoyable read. Thanks, Pete |
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caterina Member
since 2002-07-25
Posts 188Canada |
Hey Trevor, I like your poem " I Like." Thanks for going over mine for me and glad to know I was an inspiration, anytime.  With the breaths line, maybe you could put "minty breaths" or something like that and the reader will get that instant burst of freshness. I really like the daggered birds and Caesar worms line and the ending is nice. Great write, I liked it. caterina |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hiya 'all, Big Jim, ""clean like breaths of children and grandmas" I didn't like this line. These images seemed a bit alien to the others you describe. Perhaps having a couple of little boys, whose breaths in the morning ALWAYS require Tasmanian Devil Wild Mint Toothpaste in the morning, spoiled this line for me." First of all, what the hell are you feeding your kids to stink up their mouths so foul? Secondly, I was thinking this was a finished piece and actually Caterina had mentioned something about that line to me before but it didn't click until now, I've said it once and I'll say it again...I am slllloooowwww to catch on sometimes...I guess everyone is reading it as the breaths of children and grandmas rather than I'm breathing in the smell of both. I wanted it to be an oxymoron, the bakery air isn't really fresh, but it is because of the wonderful smell, just as kids and grandmothers, they both have a particular smell...like a kid has a new person smell and a grandmother has that I've baked you goodies smell Not really fresh smells either but also wonderful scents. I guess I will have to revise that line in order to eliminate the confusion...that btw reads perfectly fine to me Thanks for pointing it out."The sentence fragments in the third strophe also jilted the flow, in my opinion." Well my intention was that readers would keep in mind the phrase "I Like" before each sentence.ie, "(I like)The smell of a bakery, the freshest air, clean like breaths of children and grandmas, blissed together in summer visits; more fully appreciated since the oven has cooled. (I like)The return home while the peeking sun drys the walk and tips the blossoms. (I like)Birds stabbing lawns like feathered daggers to Ceasar worms." ...and I tried to reitterate this by adding an actual "I like" in the last stanza. To be honest, I'm kinda happy with the format and that it reads as broken sentences but for me works within a singular recurring idea of "I Like". I appreciate the suggestion, and may end up changing it but for now I think I will keep it as is. Thanks for the critique Jim. Bonjour Pete, Well since you played the "see Jim's critique" I'll reply with, "see my response to Jim." Thanks for your input Pete. Salut Caterina, Thanks again for all your help on this poem. I finally understand what you meant by your comments on the "children..grandmas" line not working as is. I guess one more revision is needed. Send me some more poems so I can rip off your ideas, okay? Thanks, Trevor |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Trevor (Apologies if I duplicate, I wrote this before I saw your recent reply) This piece is carried by its tone through to a closure that introduces a second person as a human counterpoint to the object, experience and sensory "likes" of the remainder of the poem thereby emphasising the significance and importance to the speaker of that other. It is very well conceived and executed with just a few nits perhaps. Firstly the importance of the atmosphere means that you cannot afford it to change or weaken. The first strophe is very nice although I have a mischievous tendency to attribute personal qualities to Sunday which would disappear if the first line was arranged: "Waking early Sunday". Also I think the last line would read better as "... with last night's rain". I agree with the previous comment that "clean like the breaths of children and grandmas" is inappropriate. Breaths of anything is dangerous at the best of times, but in a piece like this it introduces an element of hilarity which you certainly don't want. I don't like the neologism "blissed" either. The only other lapse is the allusion to Ceasar (sic). This is a clever image and in a different poem I would be applauding it, but here it simply drags the mood away from a dreamy morning soliloquy towards classical grandeur; larger in scope and entirely wrong for the piece. The last stanza is great. Nice sound and rhythm pleasing ending. Small typo on "squeak". Rob |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hi Rob, and welcome to this forum. "Firstly the importance of the atmosphere means that you cannot afford it to change or weaken. The first strophe is very nice although I have a mischievous tendency to attribute personal qualities to Sunday which would disappear if the first line was arranged: "Waking early Sunday". Also I think the last line would read better as "... with last night's rain"." Well its good that you have mischevious tendancies to attribute personal qualities to Sunday because I have a tendancy to personify "Sunday" and "night's". So we are in sync..not the band but as in tune I wanted it to seem that Sunday didn't begin until I wake it up, as to say that I'm the ruler of Sunday and it won't start until I wake it, hence the personification. I do however appreciate the suggestion but I'm kinda content with that line and the "night's rain" line."I agree with the previous comment that "clean like the breaths of children and grandmas" is inappropriate. Breaths of anything is dangerous at the best of times, but in a piece like this it introduces an element of hilarity which you certainly don't want. I don't like the neologism "blissed" either." Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with all of you on the "breaths" things, however, I just noticed that when you wrote it in your critique you added "the", perhaps that's where the confusion is, maybe everyone is reading it as "clean like THE breaths of children and grandmas" rather than how it is written, "clean like breaths of children and grandmas", ie. "clean like breaths of fresh air", with that in mind does it make more sense? Maybe I'll revise it anyways. Also "blissed", yeah its not the best word but I can't think of anything better. I originally was trying to find something that stuck with a bakery image, like "risen" or "baked" or whatever, but couldn't find a suitable one. I'll probably just end up sticking with "blissed" but will definetly keep it in mind if I do a revision. "The only other lapse is the allusion to Ceasar (sic). This is a clever image and in a different poem I would be applauding it, but here it simply drags the mood away from a dreamy morning soliloquy towards classical grandeur; larger in scope and entirely wrong for the piece." I appreciate the insight you offer on this line, but I'm gonna disagree with you. I know that it is kind of a jarring image in comparison to the rest of the poem but I feel that it works for the piece instead of against it. Morning has begun and the illusion of dream world is faded with the sun appearing, blossoms emptying, birds stabbing the lawn like a pack of hungry Senators. I believe it works, or may work, because it is a contrast to the rest of the poem. It's all dreamy, everything is lovely, then he must confront reality, is the woman he loves still in his bed waiting, even though she has the option of leaving? I dunno, with this explanation do you find that it might work or do you still feel it is out of place? Also I hope I'm not giving you the impression that I don't appreciate your suggestions because I do. I'm always looking for ways to improve my poetry and I'm not stubborn or egotistical, well maybe stubborn a bit but not ego driven. I try to look at my work in a very objective manner, so I have no problems with changing words. It's just I think its a good poem and I disagree with some of the comments, not so much as the writer, but as a reader. It's as important to realize what not to change as it is to know what to revise. For the record this is actually the third version. "The last stanza is great. Nice sound and rhythm pleasing ending. Small typo on "squeak"." Thanks for the typo reminder, I changed it...see I can revise They called me stubborn in Prague, they called me bullheaded in Budapest, they called me pigheaded in Paris...but I showed them, I SHOWED THEM ALLLLL!!!!! ohh, these late nights, early mornings are killing me.Anyways, glad to meet ya, thanks for your time and comments, I look forward to reading some of your work in the future. Trevor |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Hi Rob, and welcome to this forum. >> thank you "Firstly the importance of the atmosphere means that you cannot afford it to change or weaken. The first strophe is very nice although I have a mischievous tendency to attribute personal qualities to Sunday which would disappear if the first line was arranged: "Waking early Sunday". Also I think the last line would read better as "... with last night's rain"." Well its good that you have mischevious tendancies to attribute personal qualities to Sunday because I have a tendancy to personify "Sunday" and "night's". So we are in sync..not the band but as in tune I wanted it to seem that Sunday didn't begin until I wake it up, as to say that I'm the ruler of Sunday and it won't start until I wake it, hence the personification. I do however appreciate the suggestion but I'm kinda content with that line and the "night's rain" line. >> and I appreciate that you appreciate the suggestions. No big deal though, both of these were minor and just this reader's preferences, as I say this is a good stanza. "I agree with the previous comment that "clean like the breaths of children and grandmas" is inappropriate. Breaths of anything is dangerous at the best of times, but in a piece like this it introduces an element of hilarity which you certainly don't want. I don't like the neologism "blissed" either." Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with all of you on the "breaths" things, however, I just noticed that when you wrote it in your critique you added "the", perhaps that's where the confusion is, maybe everyone is reading it as "clean like THE breaths of children and grandmas" rather than how it is written, "clean like breaths of children and grandmas", ie. "clean like breaths of fresh air", with that in mind does it make more sense? >> very good point. Of course that's how I read it and I guess therein lies the problem. Although if the smell of my grandma is anything to go by, one thing it is not is "clean". I still agree that you should change this. Maybe I'll revise it anyways. Also "blissed", yeah its not the best word but I can't think of anything better. I originally was trying to find something that stuck with a bakery image, like "risen" or "baked" or whatever, but couldn't find a suitable one. I'll probably just end up sticking with "blissed" but will definetly keep it in mind if I do a revision. >> Good "The only other lapse is the allusion to Ceasar (sic). This is a clever image and in a different poem I would be applauding it, but here it simply drags the mood away from a dreamy morning soliloquy towards classical grandeur; larger in scope and entirely wrong for the piece." I appreciate the insight you offer on this line, but I'm gonna disagree with you. I know that it is kind of a jarring image in comparison to the rest of the poem but I feel that it works for the piece instead of against it. Morning has begun and the illusion of dream world is faded with the sun appearing, blossoms emptying, birds stabbing the lawn like a pack of hungry Senators. I believe it works, or may work, because it is a contrast to the rest of the poem. It's all dreamy, everything is lovely, then he must confront reality, is the woman he loves still in his bed waiting, even though she has the option of leaving? I dunno, with this explanation do you find that it might work or do you still feel it is out of place? >> In a word: "No". This reader doesn't want contrasts he wants gentle and consistent maintenance of the tone until the closure. In this world the woman was always going to be in his bed waiting, nothing could go wrong, the world is beautiful and his cup runneth over etc etc. In fact come to think of it the whole bird stabbing at something scene is a little out of place - but then again maybe the piece does benefit somewhat from the tension that introduces..... but no not Caesar - not the Roman empire - not the whole weight of Classical literature. Ok, I know I've gone to far, but you see the point? Also I hope I'm not giving you the impression that I don't appreciate your suggestions because I do. I'm always looking for ways to improve my poetry and I'm not stubborn or egotistical, well maybe stubborn a bit but not ego driven. I try to look at my work in a very objective manner, so I have no problems with changing words. It's just I think its a good poem and I disagree with some of the comments, not so much as the writer, but as a reader. It's as important to realize what not to change as it is to know what to revise. For the record this is actually the third version. >> Thanks for this. No offence whatsoever taken. Good to see competent writing. "The last stanza is great. Nice sound and rhythm pleasing ending. Small typo on "squeak"." Thanks for the typo reminder, I changed it...see I can revise >> change "Caesar" as well! Rob |
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YeshuJah Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 65FL USA |
Trevor, I found the poem nostalgic but could not be persuaded to like anything else about. It seems to me that you just line up a few very well worn sensory experiences that only resonate because so many have participated of them- for my few pennies the last verse is where the poem to life and I for one would have loved to see it written from that point on. Just MO |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hi Rob, "very good point. Of course that's how I read it and I guess therein lies the problem. Although if the smell of my grandma is anything to go by, one thing it is not is "clean"." I guess the problem is mass perception and finding suitable wording to instil one's world upon others. My grandmother would bake almost daily. The house was always perfumed with scents of fresh bread, jelly cookies, muffins and pie. The only time the house didn't smell like a bakery was very early in the morning when my grandfather would light the wood stove, then it took on another flavour...more like a trapper's house because he would also be getting his gear together so he could get check his traps...that too had such a distinct smell. But what I was getting at is I guess I have to think about, how much do I want this poem to remind me of something with that description and how important to me is it to the reader to come with me. Hopefully I can think of wording that can do both. I will keep the comments you and the others have made about this line in mind for future revisions. "In a word: "No". This reader doesn't want contrasts he wants gentle and consistent maintenance of the tone until the closure." Well in a word "toughbeans" "but no not Caesar - not the Roman empire - not the whole weight of Classical literature. Ok, I know I've gone to far, but you see the point?" Seriously though, I have been thinking about what you said in regards to the weight a Caesar reference might carry. My intention, obviously, isn't to have someone read to deeply into such a reference and is intended more so to create a visual effect, however, I do understand that putting in such said reference opens the door for a reader to dig deep into what I may be implying with introducing Caesar...so I'm starting to lean in towards the direction of changing it up...plus I've just realized I've been mis-spelling Caesar. Here's an idea I have for a revision, if you have time, I'd like to hear yours...and of course everyone else's, opinion about it. Birds pecking lawns like feathered forks to Jesus worms See no more Caesar. Just kidding Actually this is what I've been thinking....Birds pecking lawns like feathered forks in the feast of worms. I dunno, it seems flat to me in comparison to the Caesar version. Anyways, thanks so much again for your comments, much appreciated. Trevor |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello YeshuJah, and welcome to the forum. "Trevor, I found the poem nostalgic but could not be persuaded to like anything else about." Well at least you liked something about it. I'm sorry that you see it as simply a nostalgia piece rather than what it is, or what it is supposed to be...a poem about a man "allowing" his lover to leave and finding that she chose to stay."It seems to me that you just line up a few very well worn sensory experiences that only resonate because so many have participated of them" Well if you can tell me what experiences haven't been well worn in the world of poetry then I'll gladly buy you a beer. Personally I can't think of anything that hasn't been written about before...hell, a friend recently sent me a published poem about the Pope's penis, I forget who wrote it but it was a great concept. I'm just hoping with this particular poem that I presented the experiences in an original manner,(even if the visuals attached are not of an original nature), which, to some extent I think I have accomplished. But if I were to use experiences that no one had other than myself (or very few have had), then, other than myself, no one would understand what I was trying to say...its not an abstract piece and for the sake of reader participation I must use things that are familiar to more than just myself. Familiarity is a very useful tool in writing....and of course with familiarity comes nostalgia, but also keep in mind that what may be nostalgic to you can be a completely new experience to someone else. "for my few pennies the last verse is where the poem to life" That is where I wanted the most impact so I'm happy that it was interpreted that way. It tells the reader what the poem is really about in relation to the earlier stanzas. The rest is kinda like the "set-up" material. "and I for one would have loved to see it written from that point on." Well then.....write away and create a poem that starts with a man returning home to see that his lover has decided to stay, I'd love to read it I'm just joking with ya, but if you do I would gladly read it. I do appreciate your comments and I understand and respect the fact that you didn't care much for this piece. I can't expect everyone to like it nor can they expect me to like all their work...However you have to understand, this poem isn't about what happens after this man returns to his lover or why she has decided to stay, etc. It's about a man wondering if his lover will stil be there even though she doesn't have to be....if you understand this and still dislike it, then all I can say is that I respect and appreciate your opinion on it and thank you for taking the time to read my poem. It's always nice to have different perspectives on a poem.So once again welcom to this forum, I hope you will take advantage of what it has to offer, Thanks, Trevor |
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Radrook Senior Member
since 2002-08-09
Posts 648 |
I enjoyed your poem. Good imagery! Suggestion: I would delete the phrase "crack of dawn" since it is a cliche. "before dawn has yet to crack" Via implication this is a reference to "crack of dawn" which is a cliche and which readily comes to mind upon reading: "before dawn has yet to crack" [This message has been edited by Radrook (08-21-2002 01:10 PM).] |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hi Radrook, You must have misread my poem, there is no phrase that reads "crack of dawn". Thanks for your comment, Trevor |
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brian madden Member Elite
since 2000-05-06
Posts 4374ireland |
Hi Trevor, enjoyed the read, nice uplifting piece. I especially enjoyed the lines "Birds stabbing lawns like feathered daggers to Ceasar worms." It seems quite stark compared with the rest of the poem, I liked the juxtaposing with the rest of the poem. Personally I would like to see more contrast. Your poem seems a bit too sweet in a way, lacking a sense of drama, ok it has a zen vibe but little pieces of conflict or dark moments like the bird image would make the nicer moments more potent. Also maybe turning the poem into a journey, maybe for a newspaper, or milk would give the poem a more focused flow. Just a thought. The sum of the angles of that rectangle is too monstrous to contemplate! |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Trevor “how much do I want this poem to remind me of something with that description and how important to me is it to the reader to come with me.” >> maybe I’m old-fashioned but surely if you write something down (unless it is a diary entry of course) and post it in a public forum asking for critique there is only one answer to that question (rhetorical or not). "In a word: "No". This reader doesn't want contrasts he wants gentle and consistent maintenance of the tone until the closure." Well in a word "toughbeans" >> your poem - your prerogative - my opinion. >> Jesus was amusing ... and your joke too. I’m glad you're looking to finish Caesar off - right now I can’t think of anything to help, but I agree your current proposed revision does sound a little flat. >> Several commentators have made the comment that they like “contrast” in this poem the most recent advocate being Mr Madden. Also you say that this is a poem about “ a man wondering if his lover will still be there even though she doesn't have to be”. I have disagree both with your interpretation of your own poem, and the readers who want starkness, contrast, dark moments, and, heaven forbid, conflict. I want to be clear that I certainly don’t dislike the bird/Caesar passage - I actually agree that it is one of the more ingenious parts of the poem. All I am saying is that it is wrong in this particular poem. To illustrate my point let me ask you to point out one single clue in the main body of the poem which suggests, as you maintain, that the speaker is in any way worried about anything let alone something as serious as whether his lover will have done a bunk or not? I suppose you are going to cite the last few lines of each of the first three strophes: “the fallen cherry blossoms”, the cooling oven and the stabbing bird. Humm, to my mind these are nowhere sinister enough to derogate from the pleasant imagery, and to make them any stronger would alter the sense of the piece for me which is simply a man appreciating the wonderful material things he likes in life but in the closure acknowledging above all these things that what really matters to him is a relationship, maybe something more than materiality. The point here is that if you are going to introduce darkness into the poem then you end up by taking away from the significant of the relationship, because for a relationship to be more important than something sinister is no big deal - in fact a lover would be pretty insulted I would think if she was only marginally more interesting than, say, a gory vulture. On the other hand here we have a speaker who is brimming with the joys of Spring, bubbling with the wonders of nature, ecstatic over the odours of grandmothers and yet STILL the mere fact of his lover’s faithfulness to the love nest is more important to him than all these things. If there is any contrast, that is it, and quite right too. I think I’ve made my point, I’ll shut up now. Rob |
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brian madden Member Elite
since 2000-05-06
Posts 4374ireland |
Rob, please call me brian. first of all I would like to clarify my points made about this poem, yes it seems to my mind to be about a man enjoying the simple joys of life though what I see and what the author sees might be entirely different, the subtext or what the poem was thinking at the time of writing this poem make the poet see the poem is a different light to me. to address your other point, my main reason for replying to this thread again "Several commentators have made the comment that they like “contrast” in this poem " Contrast adds interest, it adds another level to a poem. It does not have to dark tones and light tones, such as “a gory vulture” it can be far more subtle that that. The poet has already created a sharp contrast to the rest of the poem “Birds stabbing lawns like feathered daggers to Ceasar worms.” The words “stabbing” “daggers” “worms” are a sharp contrast to the rest of the poem There is contrast in the first verse, the mention of “cupped heavy with night’s rain.” with the softer images of the first verse. The poet makes the contrasts himself and they add weight to the feeling of happiness. My point was that images of the words “stabbing” etc created too much of a contrast, the images were too sharp in comparison to the rest of the poem and I felt that they might upset the flow of the poem. And I believe that we agree on that point “I actually agree that it is one of the more ingenious parts of the poem. All I am saying is that it is wrong in this particular poem”. The sum of the angles of that rectangle is too monstrous to contemplate! |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hi Brian, Thanks for your comments, I'm glad you liked the contrast presented. I probably won't expand on the journey, though it might not be a bad idea. I'll think it over. Hi Rob, "how much do I want this poem to remind me of something with that description and how important to me is it to the reader to come with me. "maybe I’m old-fashioned but surely if you write something down (unless it is a diary entry of course) and post it in a public forum asking for critique there is only one answer to that question (rhetorical or not)." I disagree. There must be a balance struck between what the reader wants and what the writer wants, they both must be satisfied and content with what they've read. If only one side is content then there is no point to writing besides readership numbers or narcissism. Not everything in a single poem has to be catered towards the reader, though the poem as a whole should be if presented to the public (of course in relation to what audience the writer is going for). I do want acceptance for my work as a whole, I would like the majority of readers to like the majority of my poems but that doesn't mean I care if every reader enjoys every line. I have to strike a some sort of balance because I am a reader too, I must be content with what I read, especially when its my own work. Sometimes you must say, to hell with it, I like that line. "To illustrate my point let me ask you to point out one single clue in the main body of the poem which suggests, as you maintain, that the speaker is in any way worried about anything let alone something as serious as whether his lover will have done a bunk or not?" There really are no clues and that is intentional. I hope the reader will read it more than once, I think the meaning becomes more clear with each read...or at least that is what I'm hoping for. It is only at the end you discover that the whole time he's been wondering about whether or not his lover is still there. I didn't spell it out but I was hoping that the reader would think this after finishing the poem, perhaps, "still there..even after", is too vague to carry that idea. The whole meaning of the poem rests in the last stanza while the rest is just mood. The only literal connection between the imagery, character and story is that the character enjoys all of these things and I think there is a natural stress to assume that he certainly cares for his lover more than all the warm croissants and birds. I'm not trying to add a sinister element to it, I'm trying to set a mood for the last stanza. There is nothing sinister about a man wondering if and appreciating the fact that his lover has stayed. Picture yourself doing the same actions as he did, yet wondering all the time if your lover is still waiting...wouldn't you notice different things as you came closer to answering that question? Hence the attempt at a mood change in the third stanza. Now I don't allude to why the mood is presented the way it is, until the last couple lines, which tries...and do stress tries, to sum it up. Maybe if I added another stanza at the beginning, with him getting out of bed and leaving his lover it would then be more effective. Opinion? But in essence, I agree to some extent with what you've said....or at least I think I do. Let me recap what I believe you are saying... Basically you recommend keeping the mood more simple and level throughout the poem, this in itself will be effective enough to bring about a contrast in the poem between the first three stanzas and last one...oh yeah, and kill Caesar. Also in relation to what you have been saying... I have been thinking about the ending too. And I've come to the waivering conclusion that perhaps those last two lines do add enough depth to the poem to get a reader thinking without having any contrasting images. "even after..." does allude to many things. Maybe if I allow the poem to be interpreted simply as a man who is appreciating his day and the fact he has a lover waiting for him at home (done by omitting a mood change), then this piece will be more effective. Maybe he knows all along that she will be there and is just appreciative of the fact. Well, regardless of how this poem is revised...and how can I not revise it with so many helpful comments from everyone....I want to thank you (and everyone else) for taking the time to offer your advice and discuss your opinions in detail. In the least, they were extremely helpful in getting me to rethink this piece from another perspective.BRIAN, Thanks again for your insight into this discussion of the poem. I appreciate what you offered up for thought. I've been meaning to ask you a quick question...."The sum of the angles of that rectangle is too monstrous to contemplate!"...I'm not getting this, is it a mathematical thing? Just curious, if you have the time perhaps you wouldn't mind explaining. Thanks everyone. Trevor |
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YeshuJah Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 65FL USA |
Trevor, thanks for the welcome. I must say though, that I used to come to this forum a while back but found my old login to be no good. Indeed, I coughed up a few bucks here in the name of a book I never received, but that's water under the bridge. I admired the way you handled my crit of the poem. I suppose you're correct about familiarity being a useful tool. I look forward to reading some more of your work. |
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YeshuJah Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 65FL USA |
Trevor, thanks for the welcome. I must say though, that I used to come to this forum a while back but found my old login to be no good. Indeed, I coughed up a few bucks here in the name of a book I never received, but that's water under the bridge. I admired the way you handled my crit of the poem. I suppose you're correct about familiarity being a useful tool. I look forward to reading some more of your work. |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hi Yesh., sorry I'm gonna abreviate, your name is quite a mouthful. I thought I recognized the name, but wasn't sure since it said it was your first post...well, welcome back. "I admired the way you handled my crit of the poem." Well I can't say that someone not liking my poem doesn't sting at least a bit. I think anyone who shares their work wants everyone to enjoy it...the more they like the more it seems to sometimes increase the validation of sharing it. However, if I didn't lend support to your opinion then what does that say about mine? I just try to be objective with my work, I think that's the only way I will ever get better, or ever hope to get better. I may write for solely myself but myself says that I like it when people like my work "I suppose you're correct about familiarity being a useful tool." It can be, so many writing tools that its sometimes difficult to know when is a good time to use what...and to complicate things even more there are a million ways to write a poem. I don't think it ever gets easier to write a poem, I think though, through study, one allows for more options. To be honest, I'm totally torn about what to do with this poem...should I keep it as is or do I revise and keep a steady mood throughout? Will changing it improve the poem or worsen it? Does it matter, and who to? If God drinks soda which soft drink would he choose? What colour of panties does the Queen of England wear? Or does she go commando style? All of these questions boggle my mind Thanks and take care, Trevor |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Brian "Contrast adds interest, it adds another level to a poem" I thought that was what I said. The point I was making was that you were advocating the use of "darkness" to bring contrast to this particular poem. I think that is wrong. Trevor "I disagree. There must be a balance struck between what the reader wants and what the writer wants, they both must be satisfied and content with what they've read. If only one side is content then there is no point to writing besides readership numbers or narcissism. Not everything in a single poem has to be catered towards the reader, though the poem as a whole should be if presented to the public (of course in relation to what audience the writer is going for). I do want acceptance for my work as a whole, I would like the majority of readers to like the majority of my poems but that doesn't mean I care if every reader enjoys every line. I have to strike a some sort of balance because I am a reader too, I must be content with what I read, especially when its my own work. Sometimes you must say, to hell with it, I like that line." >> Well I suppose it all comes down to whether you write poetry in order to "reach" other people: in order to please them, move them, make them think a little, change them in some way etc etc and derive your own pleasure and gratification from the reactions of others to what you write. Or whether just the very act of setting down words in what you consider to be a pleasing order in the solitude of your own room gives you pleasure. The latter feels to me slightly narcissistic, and although perhaps there is a minor buzz to be had from feeling that you have created a nice line or poem it seems to me that if upon exposure to the wider world your creation is generally regarded as bland and worthless then that pleasure would be very transitory. "Maybe if I added another stanza at the beginning, with him getting out of bed and leaving his lover it would then be more effective?" >> Certainly not. All that would do is flag up the situation from the start and lessen the impact of the closure. Any astute reader would be able to second guess the outcome and that would render the whole of the central part of the poem as so much flowery filler. >> Thanks for your other comments, and for thinking about what I have said. I don't want to come over dogmatic, after all I am only one reader with one opinion. It's just that read as I do your poem strikes a nice chord which is similar to that I hear when I read what I regard as the best contemporary poetry - mary oliver and john burnside spring to mind immediately. Rob [This message has been edited by Robtm1965 (08-22-2002 05:10 AM).] |
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brian madden Member Elite
since 2000-05-06
Posts 4374ireland |
Heh Trevor, the signature quote is from Batman the movie based on the 1966 tv series. |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hi Rob, "Well I suppose it all comes down to whether you write poetry in order to "reach" other people: in order to please them, move them, make them think a little, change them in some way etc etc and derive your own pleasure and gratification from the reactions of others to what you write. Or whether just the very act of setting down words in what you consider to be a pleasing order in the solitude of your own room gives you pleasure. The latter feels to me slightly narcissistic, and although perhaps there is a minor buzz to be had from feeling that you have created a nice line or poem it seems to me that if upon exposure to the wider world your creation is generally regarded as bland and worthless then that pleasure would be very transitory." I believe that reaching other people is the main intent of all writers, maybe not at the start of their journey but they all seem to end there. A compulsion to try and connect, relate to and make sense of their world. However, I do think there is also an element of the writer trying to understand themselves through their work. I do agree with what you've said but I also think it is unhealthy to indulge too heavily in either side. I can't see a writer being fully satisfied with their work if they are busy only catering to the wants of others, or looking to scribe their experiences and world with someone elses voice. I also agree that the lone solace writer might be overly narcisstic. But if you don't indulge in yourself once in awhile, as a writer, your voice may become generic. That is why I think a balance is important. "Maybe if I added another stanza at the beginning, with him getting out of bed and leaving his lover it would then be more effective?" >> Certainly not. All that would do is flag up the situation from the start and lessen the impact of the closure." Thanks, didn't think so either, just wanted someone elses opinion to help confirm my suspicions. I was also thinking of ending each stanza with, "A lover in my bed" but think that too would "dumb up" the piece and put a handful of cheese atop it. "Thanks for your other comments, and for thinking about what I have said. I don't want to come over dogmatic," Not a problem, I've enjoyed our discussion. You haven't come across as dogmatic...a little stubborn maybe but not dogmatic But seriously though, it's a good thing when someone presents their opinions, can stand by it and has the patience to explain why....and in a comprehendable way as well. Each time I'm able to discuss things like this, it adds a new level of understanding towards writing, not only my own, but writing in general."It's just that read as I do your poem strikes a nice chord which is similar to that I hear when I read what I regard as the best contemporary poetry - mary oliver and john burnside spring to mind immediately." I'm flattered to have a poem mentioned in the same sentence as those two. That's quite a compliment, thank you. Shall I collect my Pulitzer now or should I wait for the ceremony?...however methinks I might have a better chance of getting the award by breaking into Mary's house Thanks once more for all your help and input, Trevor BRIAN, Who knew Adam West was so profound?...his mind certainly must rival that of MASH's Radar Thanks for the explanation...and here I've been thinking you were on to some break through mathematical equation, such as the unification theory, from messing with a simple rectangle |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Rob: I see the points you are raising and agree with them to some extent. Where I think my opinion departs from yours is that a good poem is often written to be received differently by different audiences. I think a good poem should be satisfying to the writer of the poem. In the case of a poem written about a specific person, I think it is also important that the poem be satisfying to the primary recipient. Where a poem succeeds or fails to impact the dispassionate reader is in how well it conveys the thoughts and specific feelings in a way that is understandable and identifiable to the reader. I don't think it is necessarily the best policy for a writer to write a poem with his or her "readership" in mind ... at least not as a primary concern of the writer. I would agree, however, that if the writer wants the poem to be appreciated by more than those who actually took part in the event they described, it must be written in a way that elicits clear thoughts and feelings in the reader that mirror, even if imperfectly, the thoughts and feelings brought on to the reader by the even. I think a poem about love, for example, loses effect if it is written solely for the unattached reader. Oftentimes it is the meaning an event has on the writer that makes a poem more appealing. In my original comment to Trevor, I pointed out a line that did not seem to work well with me because the picture it evoked seemed inconsistent with the thoughts and feelings conjured in me by other lines in the poem. I personally believe Trevor can revise that particular line in a way that is more meaningful to a broader readership without compromising the level of meaning of the line to him (or the object of the poem, for that matter). Granted, there may be times (I cannot think of a good example of one now) that tinkering with a line may cause the poem to lose some of its meaning to the writer and, in such a scenario, I think it would be best for the writer to not change the line. Just a few thoughts. I enjoyed reading the discussion. I look forward to reading some of your work in the forum soon. Jim |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Jim Maybe I didn’t make myself entirely clear. In fact I’m sure I didn’t. There is surely nothing wrong with writing poetry to a primary audience (a lover maybe) and specifically targeting that audience by including personal references and unique or unusual imagery for example which will appeal to or “ring bells with” that person. The same applies I guess to writing primarily for one’s self gratification (although as I have indicated this holds little or no appeal for me). But there are two points to be made, the first somewhat parochial in nature in the sense that it relates specifically to posting poems to a critical forum for comment. I was simply trying to say that there seems little merit to me in posting to a public board asking for help with and comments on a poem when a large proportion of the piece is beyond the scope of “the ordinary critic in the street” by reason of the fact that he/she lacks sufficient background information. And also of course if a writer has no interest in changing a poem to improve its poetic value simply because in doing so it would lose essential intimate detail then I would see little purpose in asking the outside world for assistance. An example? Take Caterina's recent poem. When Trevor and I objected to the line "I am the sand" she could have turned round and instead of using a technical argument to justify its inclusion said, "No way am I removing that line because my b/f and I went on a vacation to Ibiza and I was lying on the beach one day covered in sand and he rolled on top of me in his luminous yellow bikini briefs and whispered that I looked like a lascivious sand-woman", or some such. On the basis that Caterina posted her poem to try and improve it that to my mind would be an impolite, even invalid, basis for rejecting advice. My other point is somewhat wider in the sense that poetry is art and art imo opinion only becomes “art” by virtue of its interaction with humanity. The reactions and changes in others as a result of the experience become a part of the experience and add to it. So much love poetry especially is so targeted, so concerned with pushing over a specific point to a specific person that it becomes little more than a personal note or diary entry. I think it is unlikely that we in fact disagree very much as it is pretty clear to me that poetry, even love poetry, can be both targeted and also possess massive universal appeal (I could cite hundreds of examples of poems where poets have sacrificed nothing in terms of poetic value yet presumably still reached their intended target). In fact I’d go further and stick my neck out and say that unless a poem does attract a reasonably wide audience it is unlikely to be a “good” poem and unlikely to appeal much (in the longer term) to a discerning recipient in any case. (But then when are star-struck lovers ever interested in “the longer term!”) Rob |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Wow, Rob. Excellent points. You are right in that we agree moreso than we disagree about this. I'm not sure if you were clear or not ... my career involves utility regulation, for crying out loud ... I COULD have blown a few braincells and missed your meaning. I would probably be willing to stick my neck out and agree with you on your last point. Besides that, I try not to agree with Canadians too often ... people start to talk after a while, you understand. Jim P.S. Loved the "lascivious sand-woman" bit. So ... when are you going to post something? |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hi, ROB: "if a writer has no interest in changing a poem to improve its poetic value simply because in doing so it would lose essential intimate detail then I would see little purpose in asking the outside world for assistance." "My other point is somewhat wider in the sense that poetry is art and art imo opinion only becomes “art” by virtue of its interaction with humanity." Great points. Here's some more food for thought: "In fact I’d go further and stick my neck out and say that unless a poem does attract a reasonably wide audience it is unlikely to be a “good” poem and unlikely to appeal much (in the longer term) to a discerning recipient in any case." Perhaps, but how many people must in fact be in that wide audience to be able to consider a poem as being "good" and what time frame does a poem have to achieve such status? Countless writers, painters, musicians have been overlooked by the people in their time period only to be later "discovered" as "good". Also the flip side is, there have been works where, for their time, were considered great and had a large audience but are now thought of as dated and/or poor....remember, "Valley of the Dolls", was a bestseller. And If there is no time limitations to when a writer can reach a X-numbered audience then how can we truly tell what is good and what isn't...in a current sense? We can only think of in terms of our time period and the past but in art what is relevant to the past may not be for the future. I guess art is only good as its relevancy to the population in the time period it is viewed in. What is good today is bad tomorrow and vice versa. However, in terms of pleased viewership being the water mark for how good art is,(relevant to pop. in a time period), does that mean Brittaney Spears is a better artist than Tom Waits simply because she reaches a larger audience? More people connect with her shallow messages and simplistic Pro-Pepsi generation mantra than Tom Waits' bitter sweet story telling, does that mean her art is more effective? And why? But everyones statements, my own included, still leaves me wondering, what is "good" art and what is its relation to who/why/how an artist caters to an audience? If all the literature acedemics loved a poem yet the masses hated it, would it still be good or is it bad? What if everyone loved it and the artist hated it? Maybe the only true test of art is how it changes society and the way we view our world, in short its influence....and widespread influence isn't necessarily accomplished through conscious mass participation,...in fact, just as often the few change the many, as do the many change the few. Look around a home, constantly past artist's influences abound....yet the masses don't even know their names, but should that lessen the strength of their art and the impact it has had on our lives? A more noticeable example is HG Wells, and how many of his stories contained things not yet built but have now come to life?....but ask many people now if they have ever heard the name and you'll get a "huh?"...or what if no one published his work, should that lessen how "good" his work was?...or just how influencial it could have been? Perhaps there is no real way to measure how good art is, we all experience things differently, so who's to say one interpretation is better than another? Perhaps there is no good and bad art, only art that sells, and art that doesn't, art that influences, and art that has been influenced? Dunno, just some food for thought. Thanks, always an interesting discussion. JIM: "Besides that, I try not to agree with Canadians too often ... people start to talk after a while, you understand." Jim, I never knew you were a bigot? For shame....You frick'n Yankees are all the same Thanks for all your input, Trevor |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Yep, I knew when I said “stick my neck out” that it would lead to trouble! I haven’t got time Trevor to try and cover all your individual points, but I’ll just make a few of my own, which may indirectly address some of yours: “Indifference” is the death knell of all aspiring art. Creations which leave humanity unmoved are not in my view “good art”. A murder “moves” people. Is it art? In the strictest and widest sense the answer is probably yes, although the question of the intent comes into play here. Can an “artist” unintentionally create something that is good art? This of course is an entirely separate issue from the matter of whether a particular piece of art is morally acceptable. So art might be good art without necessarily being moral art. Britney - yes she is art. I say “she” because you mustn’t confuse what she sings (and I use “sing” in its most elastic meaning), with what she “is”. The lyrics and maybe even the melodies have very little to do with Britney’s appeal I would argue. It’s the whole media pumped up package that attracts. The look, the power, the tantalising press coverage, the consumer accessories, yes , the noise as well. And yes, it may be that the Britney package is “better” than Tom Waits - maybe she changes more lives, more fundamentally for all I know. On the temporal issues I think you are wrong when you say: “I guess art is only good as its relevancy to the population in the time period it is viewed in. What is good today is bad tomorrow and vice” The point about really good art is that it transcends generational and cultural differences. Excepting difficulties of communication across time and races, the best artworks appeal to something fundamental in human nature. Even though I don’t pick up much of the allusion when I walk round exhibits in the Louvre I can still be “moved”. I accept that there are degrees of “good”, but ultimately the test of time and multiple generations is probably THE test. Will Shakespeare of course being the obvious example. Will Britney last as long or Damien Hirst’s cow? How many people need to be changed or connected with to make a piece “good”? All I’d say is the more people it reaches the better it is, and more pertinently the more diverse the group it reaches (eg academics, street bums, catholic priests, kids in school etc) the better it is - because surely this is a test of basic appeal - and by “basic” I mean appeal relying not on literary allusion, shock value, sex, media glitz etc but that fundamental human nature which I mentioned before. Recently I read an article about young high school kids in the US reading and loving Shakespeare - two weeks later I read another one - different paper, different continent, different age group: convicts in Dartmoor prison acting Shakespeare and learning from it. Finally good art is good however it reaches people. As you point out many people haven’t heard of Wells yet live with derivations of devices he predicted. It doesn’t matter surely how people come to a particular piece of art or even whether they know the artist. That they come to it and are not indifferent to it is enough. Rob |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello, Well, I spent over two hours writing a terrific, well thought out response only to have it all erased when the forum couldn't properly process my post because of excessive images, "poof", all gone, I don't understand why it would erase it, but anyways....I don't have the energy or inclination left now to write a proper response....its a real sapping effect when something like that happens. I will say I agree with some of your points but find your definitions to be a little restrictive .....yeah I know, big words from a guy without a response to back him up. ...man I had some real witty bits in there too. Once again, another piece of great art is lost in the shuffle of things...Ah well, such is life and its natural tendancy to f* me over.I might try and rewrite my response at a later date. Nonetheless thanks for an interesting discussion. Trevor |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
We have to be a little careful in throwing out metaphors and analogies lest the arguments become nothing but hollow rhetoric. Re: the murder reference and a couple of others here. Hitler also changed a lot of lives but it hardly classifies as art under any rational definition. |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Trevor Thanks for trying anyway. Never trust a computer! Pete That was why I was careful to distinguish the qualitative argument from the moral one. Perhaps this discussion has gone beyond the scope of this forum in any case. Rob |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
No Rob, I think we are all enjoying this discussion. I did not in any way mean to discourage it. It's not like we have so much activity in here that we don't have time for some side-lights. Besides, this discussion is about poetry and its merits anyway. Thanks all, Pete |
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Muys Member
since 2002-04-06
Posts 389The Netherlands |
 I am a beginner I like itMuys |
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