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Passions in Poetry

Jousting Forum?

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Balladeer
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25 posted 03-22-2008 10:10 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

There are no site rules concerning jousting poetry, aside from a little common sense. Personal attacks forbidden? Yes, but  only when they are recognized as being personal attacks.

Toerag and I started the jousts, along with LongJohn, many years ago. Toe had come from a site where that was common and he decided to test the waters a little by tossing a little zinger at me. It made me laugh and I decided to respond, although I checked by e-mail with Toerag's friends to make sure he wouldn't be offended if I did so. They assured me he loved it. So we began. The difference between our jousts and some of what we have recently seen is that our "insults" were made in the poetry, not the replies. Also, everyone who read our little battles were convinced that we actually had a great deal of respect for each other and were friends. If we called each other a name it was slapstick, like Moe slapping Curly upside the head and calling him a meathead. There was no animosity at all and everyone had a good time with it.

When readers do NOT detect the friendship or respect in the battle, then someone is doing something wrong. When someone speaks of "personal attacks",  something is not right. When replies lean toward "nastiness", we have gone too far. check the early battles of Toe and I and you will not find examples of that happening.  The problem with extr3m3st's posts were that they did not follow these common sense rules...


If you mess with me I'll rip you up like christmas wrappers,
You mess with me you will get destroyed,
Now it is time for me to pull out my sword,
Until I slice you into little pieces and you diminish,
Until I lay you down, as flat as a board.
So if anyone want's a challange come respond to me,
So I can verbally destroy you, and let your poetic soul set free.


Lines like these brought complaints from the members, both in the form of issuing tickets and personal e-mails to me, and probably other mods. It's hard to get the feel of any "rapport" or comraderie in lines like those. No, I don't believe he meant harm. He is a 14 year old student who probably just wanted to be a part of what he saw going on with our jousts. He just went about it the wrong way.

There are no specific rules. The jousting can be fun. Others join in, it's interesting and it even spurs one on to write and be creative. I would just suggest that it all be done in fun, in a way that all who read it KNOW it's done only in fun, and that the battling be done in the poetry itself, moreso than in the replies. If we can't manage that, then the site is better off without it.
Nan
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26 posted 03-22-2008 11:28 PM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

Thankya, Deer.. and if I recall, we didn't let that skalawag LngJohn go around kicking poor defenseless little kitties either?..

Grinch
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27 posted 03-23-2008 06:43 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Nostalgia, it seems, isnít what it used to be Mike.

I remember RainbowGirl and Toerag turning up, I remember the early jousts too but the site was a whole lot smaller then, everybody knew almost everybody but that still didnít stop the misunderstandings.

I remember Toe taking it too far on occasion and Nan posting rebukes and laying down the law and the deletions and discussions among the other members and Mods when he went too far.

quote:
Personal attacks forbidden? Yes, but only when they are recognized as being personal attacks.


quote:
No, I don't believe he meant harm. He is a 14 year old student who probably just wanted to be a part of what he saw going on with our jousts.


Thatís the way I saw it too Mike, without guidelines he just jumped in using the language of street rappers who face off against each other in verbal duels. Without guidelines we just set him up to be one of the stooges before smacking him upside his head and labelling him Curly for ignoring guidelines that donít exist.

BTW

Were the lines you quoted from the thread in question or one of the other two that were closed or moved? My short term memory is questionable but I donít recognise them, I seem to remember a reference to pop goes the weasel in that thread.

Essorant
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28 posted 03-23-2008 10:18 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Why doesn't Ron say anything?

We could use a leader's judgement here.


Midnitesun
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29 posted 03-23-2008 12:23 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Wow, I never expected this to be such an active thread!
I was busy yesterday and just now came back to read.
There were several things about that thread in Open that were just plain wrong. It didn't seem to have a humor element in it (maybe I'm just getting too old?) and the replies were indicating a problem. Also, one reply from a moderator (SEA)calling the poster a retard, was offensive in my opinion, even IF my own thoughts were following the same line of thinking. Hence, the suggestion for a jousting tournament thread, almost no-holds-barred kind of thing, with kid-gloves off?
serenity blaze
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30 posted 03-23-2008 02:43 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I would like to apologize for my own participation in that thread. In retrospect, my replies did add fuel to the fire. I'd like to point out though, that I was not aware there had been other probelms with that particular member--I do not research every poet I read here.

I have seen other forums with flags that have icons indicating the tone of the subject. I don't think the idea is that far-fetched. I have seen these other forums that have love poetry indicated by a little heart icon--so why not have some sort of "jest in fun" indicator to help us all out?
serenity blaze
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31 posted 03-23-2008 02:45 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

And Ess? Clean that up for me, will ya?

*chuckle*

And are you available for proof-reading via private e-mail?
Balladeer
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32 posted 03-23-2008 03:22 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, Grinch, those are some of the lines from deleted posts. I don't place blame on him. As you say, he's a youngster speaking the language of youngsters. When we speak youngster back to him, that's where the problem comes in. I made an entry on one of the poems which was not abusive in any way, advising him that his particular style in his offerings were outside of the norm here. That could easily have been the end of it...and apparently it was, since he has been decent enough not to repeat it. For the oldsters who jumped in, well, what can I say? You know better. Yes, Kacey, SEA did do that but she felt badly about it and apologized afterward.

Yes, Toerag did get slapped down a bit in the beginning (Nan spent a lot of money on erasers) but they were mainly due to sexual content, never from verbally attacking anyone.

Essorant, Ron is around, I'm sure. Should the point come where he feels the need to step in, he will. His policy has always been to let the mods and members work things out, whenever possible. He must still think we are doing that well. So do I.
Larry C
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33 posted 03-23-2008 04:42 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Yup, can't let Balladeer get away. He's too much fun to have fun with and besides he can't leave a jab alone. So the anticipation of the response is half the fun. And it seems to me this is an excellent dialogue handled so well that I bet Ron gets to use his time doing other things. Or is PiPs his only life?

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane,
I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.

Grinch
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Posts 2710
Whoville


34 posted 03-23-2008 05:04 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Serenity,

Suggesting that someone runs a poem through a spell checker doesnít generally warrant an apology, putting your money on me however was a tad foolish.


quote:
When we speak youngster back to him, that's where the problem comes in.


See Mike this is how easily misunderstandings occur, when you only have words to gauge the intent. While I know youíre talking about the members who replied with personal attacks some people may believe youíre talking about my posts. Such as this one:

For a second I thought Shakespeare had risen from the grave
As I read this masterpiece of poetry you gave
I doubt that any weasels will pop in to rock your boat
They wouldnít dare to mess around with such a cunning foxy stoat.

That thread had a lot of misunderstandings attached to it Mike but I think weíve, or maybe Iíve, concentrated on it too much. It was removed for reasons I donít understand but as I pointed out earlier Iím not privy to all the information, all I can do is presume that the Mods had good reason to do what they did and acted as they normally do - with the best intent at heart.

Perhaps we should get back to the subject at hand:

I still believe that some form of explanation should be made available even if it isnĎt a set of guidelines, perhaps the originator could post a set disclaimer explaining the intent at the top of the first post, as I believe has been suggested. At least people will know the spirit in which the poem is posted and perhaps it would avoid misunderstandings all round.

Thanks for the chance to read and reply.

Nan
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35 posted 03-23-2008 07:38 PM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

...Ron who?...
Balladeer
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36 posted 03-23-2008 10:09 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

grinch, as far as the reply of yours you posted here, I found that to be good tongue-in-cheek humor. Why were the posts deleted?

You think that little poem is going to stop me?
Oh please, that was garbage, like those fake OG's,
I'll demolish you like destruction derby,
I'll have you on your hands and knees begging for mercy,
I'm a geek, but you're a worthless clown,
Telling me jokes that make no sense, so bow down,
And come listen to your master, be loyal dog,
Before I end your life, and leave you in that eternal fog.

You're posts are like an annoying pinch,
Meaningless and boring, no action at all,
You're just a garbage wannabe, so go walk death's hall,

At your pathetic excuses of disses and rhymes,
Dismantling your self-esteem is just to easy sometimes,


These are examples of replies that have no business here. They are not clever - they are simply personal and meant to insult, nothing more. They have no place in a humorous thread.

I still believe that some form of explanation should be made available even if it isnÔŅĹt a set of guidelines, perhaps the originator could post a set disclaimer explaining the intent at the top of the first post, as I believe has been suggested. At least people will know the spirit in which the poem is posted and perhaps it would avoid misunderstandings all round.

If an explanation needs to be made, the post is out of line. If a disclaimer needs to be posted, the post is out of line. We have never had a problem before by simply using common sense.

If you still feel that guidelines need to be established, ok. Here you go..

(1) Keep it friendly, humorous, and avoid personal insults not made in jest.

(2) If you have any questions, refer to Rule #1

That should do it
Grinch
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Posts 2710
Whoville


37 posted 03-24-2008 11:51 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch



Thanks for the guideline clarification Mike - a personal attack is ok if itĎs done in a humorous way or in jest - got it. Do you think itís worthwhile amending the existing rules to reflect this?

Also, whoíll be judging the intent? If Iím the target and I donít think itís a personal attack and the writer doesnít think itís a personal attack will it still be deleted? Whatís the process for deletion?

Balladeer
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38 posted 03-24-2008 06:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Grinch, I think "attack" is a rather strong word. When I write a Toerag poem and call him dumber than a box of rocks, is that an "attack"?

We're adults here....now....mostly. If  two people wanted to get into a joust, I would expect them to agree to it beforehand and do it in a funny and clever way. It's all common sense, sir. We all have an amount of that. It's not that hard to be able to differentiate between good, clean fun and abusiveness. We don't need to follow along the lines of the same "political correctness" that has the country screwed up enough. If we have to be that worried about it, then the proper thing to do would be to just forget the whole thing and outlaw them.....geesh!
Grinch
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Whoville


39 posted 03-24-2008 07:14 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Grinch, I think "attack" is a rather strong word. When I write a Toerag poem and call him dumber than a box of rocks, is that an "attack"?


No, but I didnít think xTr3m3sT was attacking me either but the thread still got deleted.

quote:
We're adults here....now....mostly.


Speak for yourself, Iím 12.


quote:
It's not that hard to be able to differentiate between good, clean fun and abusiveness.


xTr3m3sT didnít think his post was abusive, I didnít think it was abusive but you and Nan did, are you underestimating the difficulty perhaps? It could be that us kids need a little guidance and clarity before we make an unintentional mistake, is that too much to ask?

You could have saved us all a lot of time and discussion in this thread Mike, all you Nan or Ron needed to do was say no right at the beginning everyone would have wandered off back to reading and writing poems instead of making silly suggestions and asking stupid questions.

BTW Iím not twelve, I just act like it on occasion.

Balladeer
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40 posted 03-25-2008 12:57 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Why should I have said no at the beginning? I'm not even saying no now. All I'm saying is to use a little common sense and judgement, that's all.

You may not have thought extr3m3st's posts to be out of line but, yes, I and Nan, along with the other mods, along with the several people who turned in complaints did. When that many people think that something is wrong, even if you didn't, there has to be a reason. He wasn't jousting with one person - he was challenging everybody and with threats and insults, not with anything remotely resembling humor. That's what triggered the concern and complaints. If you can't see that, then I'm at a loss for what to be able to say to you.

We have had many such "jousts" in the past....me, Toerag, LongJohn, Larry, Kevin, Christopher, and several of the ladies all joined in. There has never been a problem or misunderstanding. The fact that this one triggered so many complaints must mean something, I think.

No one is saying don't do it. All I'm suggesting is that you use common sense to make it funny and clever, not malicious. It's not that hard to differentiate between the two.
Midnitesun
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41 posted 03-25-2008 07:47 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Our xTr3m one is a (male) teenager, and teens often cross lines set by those of us nearing or receiving social security benefits.
This 'opportunity' to (mis)interpret will always be with us
A gentle hand is more conducive to friendly jousting than a slap or an insult. Even if this were to be but one isolated incident, I still think a jousting forum would be a FUN and lively new forum addition. Maybe Ron doesn't want any new forums to supervise, but it sure seems that one set aside for this purpose is reasonable suggestion?
serenity blaze
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42 posted 03-25-2008 06:26 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I thought it would be fun as well, Kace. I do see a potential for abuse as well too. Like um, it could very well be construed as condoning personal attack poetry as long as there is the "jest in fun" disclaimer. So then moderators might have to be called in to judge matters of personal taste--a tough one at best. But isn't that the job anyway? (Remember "The People vs. Larry Flynt?") But at least we could tell people who seem to have "not-so-funny" agendas that they have a place to write at each other to their hearts' contentment. As long as both parties agree, I don't see what the problem would be. The forum could be rated just as all other forums are rated, and I don't think that Pip's integrity would have to be compromised. I don't think the moderating team would be taxed any more than they already are--trying to figure out intention of malice is already a difficulty. Maybe if participation in such a forum was made privy only to members who have a proven level of participation via posts, anniverary dates, or even a stint in the DM program?  

I think such a forum could work, and I don't think it would be under-utilized either. It's not something to everyone's taste of course, but at least new people wouldn't get the wrong idea about how friendly the circle of friends may or may not be--I mean, the overly "friendly" poetry is moved to the more mature themed forums pretty quickly.

So give it a PG rating, stick it inbetween Open Poetry and Dark Poetry on Today's Topic Listings, and see if it works.

If it doesn't? Put it back the way it was?

But Ron's house, Ron's furniture, he can move it any way he wants it.  
Essorant
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43 posted 03-25-2008 08:16 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"And Ess? Clean that up for me, will ya?"


I didn't see any major problems in that. The only thing I would suggest is not to use "I" so often!  Especially not at the beginning of (almost) every sentence.  

"And are you available for proof-reading via private e-mail?"

Not in private.  But if you posted something in the English Workshop I could try to look it over and help whereever I may.  

Essorant
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Posts 4689
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44 posted 03-25-2008 08:20 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

For some reason I feel 99% sure that there won't be a "Jousting" Forum.    But there is always room for optimism
serenity blaze
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45 posted 03-25-2008 08:54 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Karen does not presume to speak for the opinions and feelings of others, Essorant.

However, if it pleases you, in the future, "I" will ask her to speak of herself in the third person--on threads initiated by Essorant. She doesn't feel a need to be grammatically correct in discussion threads. She's rather informal by nature. Some people find that annoying, yanno? Don't tell her that though, as it will more than likely encourage, rather than discourage her.

She may or may not listen to me, however.

She has a defiant streak and sometimes I can't control her either.

Essorant
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46 posted 03-26-2008 02:22 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"She doesn't feel a need to be grammatically correct in discussion threads. "

Well, what other time is meant for being grammatically correct?   Our posts are literary records, that may be archived for centuries.  Whoever reads them may follow examples of them, and if you leave bad examples, they may follow bad examples.   Surely you don't want to go down in history leaving bad examples of how to use language, which is also a means by which you and your reader think?  Well whether you do or don't, you aren't leaving bad examples!  I was just trying to help improve upon what is already good.  

serenity blaze
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47 posted 03-26-2008 02:33 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Aw, Ess. Your kind generosity is touching.

Karen doesn't doubt your good intentions, lovie. She's not all that concerned about going down in history though. Being present in the presence is more than enough. She enjoys her life, her culture, and yanno?

A little colorful flair for the dialect doesn't bother her.

I hope it doesn't bother you.

It's just a "thang" dawlin'. If we weren't all different, we'd be an unstifled yawn. It's simple preference of being "thee" or being "me".

Essorant
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Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


48 posted 03-26-2008 02:14 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

No problem.  After these two last points, I will make it a point not to try to correct your comments about any grammatical issues:


You don't need to use third person.  I was just encouraging that you tone down the repetition of "I" because you have eight I's in only five short sentences in that comment you mentioned.  Using "She", "he" or "it"  too often is just as bad a habit in writing.  

"It's simple preference of being "thee" or being "me"."

That should be "thou" or "I", not "thee" or "me".  "Thee" and "me" are correctly used when verbs are acting on them (to love thee/me) or prepositions (to thee/me).  Or in some special cases where the preposition is implied as in the saying Woe is me meaning "Woe is to me or upon me", or methinks meaning "to me seems" .  

Larry C
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49 posted 03-26-2008 02:38 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Me thinks Miss Karen is more fun in first person.

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane,
I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.

 
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