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Open Poetry #36
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Brian James
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since 2005-06-26
Posts 147
Winnipeg

0 posted 2006-01-03 04:41 PM


It could have been a cemetery if
  There weren't so many lights, such sheen-renewal
About its upkeep.  They'd be sadder if
  They came with tissue-paper, saying "Cruel,"
  Or "Why," or prayed.  They could have come as fools,
With bells and innocence, or rubbed their fingers
  Against their palms, or dug holes with their tools
Instead of slicing leaves.  Requiem-singers
Could give sole tribute, and a flower-bringer
  Could lay them presents on the grass, or ice,
Or rusty mud.  But we have venom-stingers
  That can't dig holes:  the killing must suffice.
Thus we pay tribute, stitching up the stacks
Of leaves that we found growing on their backs.

[This message has been edited by Brian James (01-03-2006 07:20 PM).]

© Copyright 2006 Brian James Lee - All Rights Reserved
serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

1 posted 2006-01-03 05:00 PM


Following strict form and achieving the emotional "punch" is the purest, the very best of the art of poetry.

(smile--that sounded so pompous coming from me, huh?)

true for me though

I'll be back.

I want to read this one a few million times.

*saving it to my desktop*

(only place I can find things most days)

and, oh, curious about the punctuation--is capitalization a form thing, or was that personal choice in this piece?

(and you know I adore the allusions of ritual as well, but, indulge us, and explain the slicing of leaves )

tsk..I hate to leave, actually.

I love this alot.

Martie
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2 posted 2006-01-03 05:26 PM


Brian.....I found this very interesting, but I must admit to being confused about it's meaning.  At first I thought maybe you were talking about a park, but no, I don't think that's it.  Please help me to understand and then I'll be back to do a better job.  The end was intriguing..."But we have venom-stingers
  That can't dig holes:  the killing must suffice.
Thus we pay tribute, stitching up the stacks
Of leaves that we found growing on their backs."  Trying to think of what would do this and got lost...sorry.     

I just came back to ask...could you be talking about a library??

serenity blaze
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3 posted 2006-01-03 05:42 PM


I'm curious too, Martie.

I read with personal blinders on these days, and I'd like to know his intent as well.

What I see in this, I read intensely personally, which, I'm sure was not Brian's intent.

(It would freak me out if it was, though. )

Mysteria
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4 posted 2006-01-03 05:43 PM


Well it is marvelous darlin!  If this is a guessing game I think it is a book store   but what would I know.
It could have been a cemetary if
  There weren't so many lights, such sheen-renewal
About its upkeep


I was in Chapters yesterday and besides the sales clerks I was one of two in there, talk about a cemetary with lights!

Skyfire
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5 posted 2006-01-03 05:48 PM


I'm with Serenity, I want to read this a few million times over before I give an indepth reply (though I'll never be able to give as good a reply as you gave me)

and then He created the horse...

Martie
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6 posted 2006-01-03 05:57 PM


Yep...Brian is so good at critqueing that it is sort of intimidating for me to do justice to his poetry.  
littlewing
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since 2003-03-02
Posts 9655
New York
7 posted 2006-01-03 06:19 PM




Ok I have to look at this:

First, I want to know about the indents.  This is very different from you, is like free verse sonnet in perfect form.

Amazing.  (Did you make that up? I still use your Soul O' Mine form, you know? )

Ok now the write, and this is only what I see:

It could have been a cemetary if
  There weren't so many lights, such sheen-renewal
About its upkeep.


a pristine place, almost as a hospital would be, but full of the dead

They'd be sadder if
  They came with tissue-paper, saying "Cruel,"
  Or "Why," or prayed.  They could have come as fools,
With bells and innocence, or rubbed their fingers
  Against their palms, or dug holes with their tools
Instead of slicing leaves.


This confuses me, I want to lean towards the dead speaking to the living here.

Requiem-singers
Could give sole tribute, and a flower-bringer
  Could lay them presents on the grass, or ice,
Or rusty mud.


Us, the living To the dead.  

But we have venom-stingers
  That can't dig holes:  the killing must suffice.


Horrible writers, or one not understanding the written word.  The killing as in
"killing of good writing" or killing as in "bad interpretations of good writing"

Thus we pay tribute, stitching up the stacks
Of leaves that we found growing on their backs.


We pay tribute to the greats by reading, which in reality, also is a great harm to nature when you think of all the felled trees.

Forgive me if I am way off, but I saw this as either a test of horrible writing and interpretation and also a test of people writing horribly.

Might explain why I feel peace in a cemetary and among books.

They speak to us, always.
Sometimes, some of us are not listening.

On glance, it could also be read as a call to arms ( to stop) as in the dead . . .
war, etc, but I feel this goes much deeper than that.  It is the leaves on their backs line that made me feel it had to do with war.

Kind of a disservice in general is what I feel from this.

OR

it could mean absolutely nothing . . .

*grin*
    

I know you . . . for some odd reason why do I feel like a lab rat?





Martie
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8 posted 2006-01-03 06:24 PM


Sue..it was the leaves that made me think of books and library.  A fun poem...Brian!!  Where you be??  Also, going back to the title...research is done in a library many times.
littlewing
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since 2003-03-02
Posts 9655
New York
9 posted 2006-01-03 06:31 PM


Martie, I see that too, very much so and see the writers speaking to us in the library, we, the mourners, visiting .  . bringing flowers by reading.  

Damn you Bri . . . *smile*

loved_and_redeemed
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since 2006-01-03
Posts 22
BC, Canada
10 posted 2006-01-03 06:42 PM


This poem is one of those poems that you can't help but read a thousand times. Its meaning seems so profound, yet it doesn't hit you in the face from the first read. I too don't quite understand your intent with this poem, but I think that's one of the reasons I love it so much. Nicely done
Skyfire
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11 posted 2006-01-05 02:29 AM


Okay well I'm back, with nothing more "deep" than I love this poem; even though I don't *totally* understand it, I love the fact that I don't totally understand it.

and then He created the horse...

Mysteria
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12 posted 2006-01-05 12:59 PM


We are all waiting patiently for you to come back to "splain" this one Brian
Martie
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13 posted 2006-01-05 01:00 PM


Correction Brian...Sharon is waiting patiently, I'm not!
Midnitesun
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14 posted 2006-01-05 05:29 PM


Well, being the odd one here, even though I can see a library or antiquities bookstore, I am instead, seeing the trees in the forest, the life-giving wildnerness and woods...and the teeming life therin that is constantly threatened by our misguided rush to rip out the trees of life. (perhaps, for the sake of our papered books?)
I leaf the splainin to you

Alicat
Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094
Coastal Texas
15 posted 2006-01-06 11:46 AM


Brian, zounds!  (and thanky sis for the link)

This sonnet just flows.  Is very conversational and a pure delight to read aloud.  Research Sonnet, eh?  I could see the library and stacks of books, some filled with a venomous sting (pen and ink).  Dead bodies might well reside in a grave or bronze urn, but their brains still live in libraries.

serenity blaze
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16 posted 2006-01-06 11:51 AM


Well, to be conversation with the Alicat, I tend to over-analyze everything and since I know Brian is prolly enjoying this muchly, I am gonna shaddup until he gets here.

And I know Brian--you deserve much better from me, as I owe you bigtime.

(This guy not only writes brilliant poetry, he gives great critiques too.)


Brian James
Member
since 2005-06-26
Posts 147
Winnipeg
17 posted 2006-01-06 04:05 PM


Thanks, everyone, for your response.  If this poem is too confusing, it's entirely my fault... I have a horrible habit of being overly vague, because I'm so frightened of being far too obvious.  Your comments are reassuring, though.

Serenity Blaze:  Capitalization is a form thing.  Leaves always means pieces of paper, but I was trying to give the impression of violation so I wanted something living ("leaves") instead of paper.  "Slicing" leaves is turning the pages of a book, which is really only "slicing" in the sense that they are so condensed until they open them.

Martie:  Always the naturalist!  I've said this before, but I'm an allegorical poet (in that my images are secondary to my concepts), and you're a symbolic poet (in that your conclusions proceed from sensual experiences you have).  Believe me when I say I wish I could write symbolic poetry like you do, but I live in a cold and filthy city without any real stimulation of the sort.  My imagery is almost always invented and scarcely ever real.  But it's probably my fault that you're reading my imagery backwards, so thanks for letting me know you got that reading out of it.

In the end, yes, I'm talking about a library:  we pull leaves "from their backs" ("they" being the dead bodies I've been hinting at), to imply we don't see their faces.  I was thinking this was way too vague, and now I think a sonnet was probably too short for such a complicated idea.  Again, thanks for reading.

Mysteria:  Like I said to you over th'M-S-N, it's a library.  I guess you trillionaires from British Columbia can afford to do research in bookstores, though.  

Littlewing:  Really nice seeing you again!  The indents, like the capitals, are just an editorial element that's sometimes added to sonnets in print.  I like it because it makes a sort of visual organization without having line breaks.  If you look at some of the sonnets by Nan and vlraynes, you just might find huge fonts and breaks between the quatrains/couplet (or the octave/sestet), if I remember right.  I always prefer to emphasize the smallness of the sonnet, so I keep my hands off line breaking and opt for indentation.

You caught my hospital-imagery (or a morgue, or a mausoleum, but either way an artificial indoors).  After that, you sort of came away from what I was going for:  the whole poem is the living speaking to the dead, the possible practices of mourning contrasted with the impersonal separation of the written text from the living creature (which is what a library has).  Milton was dead long before we ever came into the library, so we don't even turn over his cold body, but pick leaves out of him.  I guess we forget to love the people that write things, even if they're poets, academics, whatever...

Thanks for reading me.

loved_and_redeemed:  I'm glad that you were able to enjoy the obscurity of my meaning.  It seems to have just frustrated everyone else!  I was honestly trying to do exactly what you describe... I always love reading poems that are not readily available to the understanding, but only if they have enough intrigue to invite the necessary work of interpretation.  I'm glad that you felt that way, then.  Thank you for your kind words, and for taking the time to respond.

Midnitesun:  I think you've read this poem the same way as Martie did the first time around.  Again, this is totally my fault:  I must not have made it obvious that I was being non-literal with my imagery and literal only at the conceptual level.  

Alicat:  I'm glad that it flows!  Lately my meters have been disorganized, and I've really moved into a style that uses lots of enjambment.  What I've been experimenting with lately, and secretly in this poem, is the use of rhyming words as subjects of new sentences.  This is an idea I mostly got from Tennyson's poem "The Kraken," though he used his rhyming words as active verbs, and I think I mostly used mine as nouns.  I also made a bet with myself that I couldn't write a Spenserian stanza with the rhyming word being "fingers," but I managed with some imperfect rhyme (which I hope was buried in the flow, if I indeed did manage that).  You've also unpacked enough of my imagery to restore some of my confidence in the clarity of my poem, which I appreciate.  Thanks as always for reading me.

Serenity Blaze:  Yes, I did enjoy this muchly!

Thanks to you all for your comments.  You really have helped me to feel a bit better about writing poetry, especially since I'm in kind of a slump.

Brian

"To me, the thing that art does for life is to clean it, to strip it to form."
~Robert Frost

Mysteria
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18 posted 2006-01-06 04:18 PM


I may adopt you!
Martie
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19 posted 2006-01-06 04:36 PM


Thanks Brian....!  
EagleScorpion
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Here, Now, Forever
20 posted 2006-01-06 04:38 PM


i dont care exactly what this poem is about... because it is absolutely great, and it could be interpreted differently. i love the way everything is explained here.. the tone of the words is very dark and spiteful..i love it..
serenity blaze
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21 posted 2006-01-07 02:55 PM


You deserve better critique than I am capable of m'friend.

But I wanted to tell you, it just goes to show you how interpretation can be tainted by personal knowledge/experience.

Because...well, the slicing of leaves thing immediately brought to my mind a technique of narcotic production, used on both the poppy plant and pot plants, which puts quite a different slant on the interpretation of the poem as a whole. (I won't go into the entire technique here as it is a family forum here in Open, but I think you follow the reference anyhow.)

"Against their palms, or dug holes with their tools
Instead of slicing leaves"

If you read that with what I was thinking, the meaning changes albeit with subtlety, because then you get the impression of someone striving for a stronger medicine, a heavier veil from reality, with a goal of "purity" as their reasoning.

I wasn't sure if you'd find my little take on it interesting or not, but I thought you deserved to know why I asked--because you are very thorough when you read my stuff, I'd like to at least attempt to return the favor.

I think you are brilliant yanno.


Magnus
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22 posted 2006-01-07 03:20 PM


I think you did well and....regarding the
city where you live....(drab, etc.)....I
think you could find a multitude of things
to write of...

for example: a beggar on a corner...

The tatters grew from knee to elbow,  
laced between with plaid rainbows
and a month's growth of uncut trees,
but the eyes...the spark that still
glowed behind the lifeless smile...
I cannot forget that...

Margherita
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since 2003-02-08
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Eternity
23 posted 2006-01-07 03:27 PM


This poem is an example of Hermetic poetry I think and as such I feel its height.

I HAD to reply, because I have been here for quite a while, reading from the end to the beginning, I do that sometimes.After all the interesting comments, the poem was still a great surprise.

The sonnet about research induced quite a research!

Love,
Margherita

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