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Dark Poetry #4
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Iambic, four beats? maybe and some rhyme
| Dark Poetry #4 |
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Iambic, four beats? maybe and some rhyme |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
When I close my eyes to sleep a world appears from fathoms deep within the shadows of my mind where mem’ry keeps the sweetest kind of treasureded dreams; gulls in flight o’er Albert Dock, and dawn’s first light on English bowers, ruffled streams with banks of iris blue and cream, a stand of birch in late twilight, the first snowfall on Christmas night, and fields of lilies where you sleep in peaceful shadows of my mind. I think the first and last lines are off, probably others too, (I'm such a dummy about meter) but those ones I just couldn't figure out how fix. [This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (09-25-2006 02:12 PM).] |
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| © Copyright 2006 JenniferMaxwell - All Rights Reserved | |||
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lanaia74 Member
since 2006-08-25
Posts 67 |
I disagree, I think the rythmn is very good! |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
It's a bit of a laundry list at the end, isn't it, but it was fun to try out the meter. Thanks for your kind words, lanaia. |
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turtle Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548Harbor |
Hi jenni, First I checked your profile and it indicates you do not want critiques.... [Edit - Which would have been a very good place to stop giving one. - Ron] [This message has been edited by Ron (03-19-2009 11:40 PM).] |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
You’ve come a really long way since you posted this Jen, I wish I was as quick at picking up this poetry lark. I'm just plain dumb I guess.  |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I happen to like things that are a bit off. (consider that birds of feather?) I can't do the slash/dot scansion thing, but as I read, it didn't...I won't say it didn't scan--I just can't play a tambourine to it. grin really--that's my whole method!!! I am so happy you are back. cha-ching-cha-ching-cha-ching-a-ling!   |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Sorry for the confusion, my critique message was changed to NO for another poem and I forgot to change it back. Turtle, thanks so much for taking time to scan and show me exactly where I went wrong. Like trig and calculus, just can’t seem to get meter through my thick head. Sorry your post was edited, it really was very helpful. Thank you! Grinch, if I could write like you, I wouldn’t be hiding out in the Dark. Karen, I think the thing is both of us sort of sing what we write rather than count syllables. Unfortunately sometimes we’re the only ones who know the tune. Thanks for the warm welcome back. If I knew the code for huggies, I’d give you a really big one! Balladeer, unfortunately your comment disappeared, too. Very kind of you to take the time to comment. Thank you! |
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turtle Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548Harbor |
GEEZ! So much for just trying to help someone that asked for help. I really expected this to go unnoticed by anyone other than Jennifer. It's not like this is an archived forum that few people look through, or anything. Ron - I'm beginning to become accustomed to you deleting my posts. I would have thought that Jennifer's participation in Bob's thread in the Alley where she indicates a positive position on critique should have played a part in your decision, it did in mine..... Yep! I'd say there's not much chance for critique at this web site.....  |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Rotflmfao (except it isn't fat) - Grinch! Do you really want me to pull up your first ever poem just to prove that you are the most infuriatingly modest person in the known universe ...  |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Yes, please, Moonbeam, do show us Grinch's first poem! Does it have his baby picture attached, one that shows him before he turned grinchy green? |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Jennifer, I wrote a fairly lengthy comment, and I don't know where it went. Ron, If it's anywhere retrievable, I'd appreciate it if it might be retrieved rather than having to reconstruct it myself from memory. My prose isn't deathless (otherwise there'd be no problem, I guess), but I keep forgetting to back up my contributions here. Sincerely, Bob Kaven |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Oh no, you had a comment deleted, too, Bob? I feel so bad, never thought about checking my critique message, haven't posted a poem in a while. Sometimes I set it to NO when I post a piece of fluff and don't want anyone wasting their time on a critique. I simply forgot to change it back. I'm really very sorry. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Ron I'm sincerely not intending to be confrontational, but I would appreciate a bit of clarification. Clearly several replies were deleted here in a thread where you knew that the original poster was someone who normally welcomed critiques. Is this simply a post-CA tightening of the policing of critical comment to make sure that it is NEVER allowed when the critique flag is set to "NO"? Or is there something specific to this thread that caused a problem? Many thanks M |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
You're loading your questions again, Rob. I'm not tightening policies and this has nothing at all to do with the CA forum. This is the way it's always worked. The Critique Flag exists for a reason. If every reader takes it upon themselves to decide when it should and shouldn't apply to them, the flag no longer has any real meaning. It's just a tool. But it's a tool that requires consistency if it's to be of value to anyone. * We do not give critiques if the Critique Flag is set to No. Period. End of discussion. * We read the poet's Critique Message and respond accordingly. * We do not ask another Member to change their Critique Flag or justify their choice. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Moonbeam, I generally include a critique when I write to JM and I did this time as well, but the problem is with me in this case and not with Ron. I don't recall having actually checked the critique flag. I saw this at the bottom of the posting: "I think the first and last lines are off, probably others too, (I'm such a dummy about meter) but those ones I just couldn't figure out how fix. " My assumption, correctly, was that critique was invited, and I offered it. It would have been welcomed. I failed to put myself into the place of somebody who has to make decisions about this sort of thing hundreds of times a year, and to understand that it's better to have a policy than to have the same argument with the same people all those hundreds of times every time the subject comes up. Which must be often. Ron can't be faulted here for being consistent and expecting others to follow the guidelines. It does suggest that there is reason for there to be a forum in which a poem, simply by virtue of a poet posting it there, would be approached critically and where it would be more difficult for there to be further such misunderstandings to occur. Sincerely, Bob Kaven |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I’ve been around Dark for over a couple of years now and have on several occasions switched my critique message to NO and still received critiques or light critiques in the attached comment box. Never before have those critiques been deleted. And that’s really ok with me, I’m far easier to get along with than some seem to think and really don’t mind critique on a no critique poem. It happens, no biggie. Anyway, the point is, I feel my poem was singled out this time by the site administrator to make some sort of point. That bothers me a lot. Two comments, critiques if you will, were deleted in their entirety. Another was edited in part and a rather snarky sounding comment was directed at the person who left the comment. If I had been bothered by a critique on a no critique poem, I would have clicked the Inappropriate Content box and asked that the critique be deleted. I really feel that, except in the case of inappropriate language or some other out of line remark that violates the rules, comments/critiques should not be deleted except at the request of the person posting the poem. And the reason I feel that way is, define for me the difference between light critique and a comment. Go to any site that gives pointers for those just learning how to critique and listed there are suggestions such as tell how the poem makes you feel, could you understand what the poet was saying, etc. Not much different than many of “comments” you see on no critique poems. And one final thing, just so there’s no question in anyone’s mind, this wasn’t some sort of set up by those of us who are in favor of having a Constructive Critique forum. I didn’t even realize Steve had left a comment until someone pointed it out to me. From discussions with him via email, no doubt in my mind that he was doing what he thought was a good thing, just being helpful, not trying to cause trouble. I think Steve, deserves a public apology. That remark on his comment was as ridiculing as those the administrator objected to in CA. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Are you suggesting that no doesn’t always mean no Jen. I’m uncomfortable with the implications of that. I don’t mind critiques on poems I ask to be critiqued but I definitely don’t want them on the rest. Your suggestion means that my choice can be overridden or ignored by anyone based on the fact that I’ve received or given critiques in the past, which to me is no choice at all. No means no and yes means yes, it’s nice and simple, so simple even I can understand it. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Ron, I apologise if the question seemed loaded. Though I think it only seems so if you work from the presumption that I knew that "this is the way it's always worked". I assure you that I had no idea that in the past it was normal practice for moderators to trawl the forums deleting critiques without notice and without asking the thread originator first. And, lest there be any mistake, I wasn't questioning your judgement that Turtle was wrong to post the critique. I was merely questioning your mode of dealing with the error. I actually thought that there was a bit leeway, in that I can recall on several occasions seeing people who were habitually giving and receiving critiques express surprise when informed that the critique flag existed! As it defaults to "No", several active participants in CA had their flags set to "No" for some considerable time, me included. But, as you assure me that such deletions have always been made, and further, that the policy is, and has always been to make them, I'm happy, and my question has been answered. Thanks M |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: I think she simply means that sometimes people forget to change background settings. As she has already stated she did. The critiquing flag is an unwieldy instrument indeed to use to control critique of a particular poem surely? If you posted a poem Craig I certainly wouldn't trot off to look at your crit flag, I'd just wade in there unless you'd done the obvious and sensible thing and posted a big "NO CRITIQUE" notice right at the top of the page or better still in the title. And Jenn's point about "what is a critique" is a very good one too. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Just so there’s no confusion Moon I’ll remove my flag AND put “no critiques” on my future posts. I’ve had it with the whole critique argument, it‘s just getting way too serious, I’m going back to just writing and posting for the fun of it. No critiquing and no requests for critique. Life’s too short.  |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
It's a serious business. Heh. Night! |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Not at all, Jennifer. I've done the same thing in Open before, though not frequently and not lately. And I'll admit it was typically much more blatant and, frankly, much more unwelcome. I don't read in Dark very often, so it's not surprising if I missed doing it in the past when it should have perhaps been done. This thread only came to my attention because it was in an Archive; seeing it in Today's Topics was just unusual enough to attract me to it. It really and honestly wasn't any more nefarious than that. And you're right, I probably do owe Steve an apology for being unnecessarily snarky. Frankly, I was irritated someone would start with an observation that the Critique Flag was off and then proceed to give a critique any way. I should have kept my irritation to myself. Especially since, in retrospect, I'm beginning to see that not everyone shares the same understandings about the Critique section in our Profiles. quote: I'm glad, Jennifer, that you're not bothered by people giving help when help hasn't been solicited. I'm sure you'll understand, however, that not everyone feels the same. Yea, we could put the onus on the person posting the poem, but I personally don't feel that's where it belongs. I think help, in any of its various disguises, has to be defined by the recipient, not by the person who want to help. Put another way, it ain't help until someone wants it. Unwanted help, in fact, is often called interference. The Critique Flag and Message exist so that people who are not Jennifer can feel comfortable posting their work without necessarily worrying about someone correcting their spelling, questioning their grammar, or yea, tearing apart their meter and rhyme. They shouldn't have to turn down help they never requested. I want people to share at their comfort level, not yours or mine. There's an old Buddhist proverb to the effect that, "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear." The hidden implication in that proverb is that "ready" is a binary condition, either on or off. I don't think so. I believe "ready" covers a very wide continuum, and everyone doesn't sit at the same point on that line. We're not all at the same state of readiness. Our rules and software certainly aren't perfect, but they're designed to enable all the writers sitting on the line to be comfortable. "When the student is ready, A teacher will appear. Over and over and over, again." quote: This corresponds, I think, to something Jennifer said earlier, and in both cases, it's a real problem. The Critique Flag doesn't have the granularity to do what the two of you seem to be suggesting. The Flag reflects the Poet, not the individual Poems. When you turn on your Critique Flag, you turn it on for every poem you've ever posted or will post. If you turn it off, you turn it off for the entire site, not just the poem sitting at the top of a forum page that day. Flipping it back and forth is ultimately going to be very confusing. I wish we had better tools to offer you. We don't. Most of this software was cobbled together years ago, and we have little choice but to work within its limitations. Maybe some day. quote: We don't trawl. I know I wasn't when I came into this thread. Obvious instances are dealt with as they arise. This was not the first such instance. It probably won't be the last. FTR, I seriously doubt I would have even checked Jennifer's flag had not someone mentioned it first. I wasn't looking for a problem, it just sort of jumped into my face. quote: The leeway, Rob, as has been noted in other threads, applied to CA, not to the individuals. Indeed, that's one of the voids the forum filled. It allowed people to leave their Critique Flag turned off, but still ask for a this-poem-only critique. It helped us deal with the lack of granularity I just discussed. quote: It is, indeed, clumsy and certainly lacks the granularity some seem to think it should have. I wish we had better. However, the Critique Flag should be obvious any time someone hits the reply button. In a poetry forum, the form where you have to type your reply has a large, off-color box immediately above the reply box where the Flag and Message are displayed for all to see. You shouldn't normally have to trot off to look for it. It's right there. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I think it’s a problem highlighted by the closure of CA Ron. When CA was open I just set my flag to no and presumed that anything in CA was open to critiques. Anything I didn’t want critiquing I posted in one of the other forums. It’s not a big problem though, it just means I have to choose with a broader brush, either I want all my poems critiquing or I want none critiquing or I mark each one accordingly in the title. Personally I’m going for the none option, just to see how it works out. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
No offense, Ron, but you (and whoever moderates this forum now) missed quite a few. My last 30 or so poems, maybe even quite a few more, covering a period of 5 months or so were posted under the NO flag. Also, one person was singled out for a bit of a public tongue lashing for critiquing this poem, while two others who made the same “mistake” and made it even after his post pointed out the no flag was up, had their posts deleted without comment or ridicule. But Grinch is right, life’s too short, too short to spend what little time we have deleting non-offensive posts in comment boxes or trying to sort out what might or might not be considered critique rather than comment. |
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turtle Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548Harbor |
Now for a bit of reality. Did anybody bother to look at the title of this poem? "Iambic, four beats? maybe and some rhyme" Jennifer's interest in critique in the Alley is what brought me to this Archive. Notice the question in the title? That's what brought me to this post. Notice the message at the bottom of the post? "(I'm such a dummy about meter) but those ones I just couldn't figure out how fix " What I did was simply answer her question on what was iambic meter and showed her how to find and fix her errors. Quote: (Ron) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm glad, Jennifer, that you're not bothered by people giving help when help hasn't been solicited. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Perhaps Ron, you should have taken that old Buddhist proverb's advice and let the teacher appear.... Fortunately. You guys will be able to find something else to do, now that you don't have the turtle to kick around anymore.  The last of turtle |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Jennifer, Offering feedback on this poem is a bit more difficult without having Turtle's original comments before me. In those he made reference to three lines which he felt didn't scan appropriately, and he offered what he thought seemed appropriate scansions of each line. This must have been the product of some considerable work, and I must applaud the effort that Turtle put into the job. In talking about scansion here on PiP, I've noticed that we make one error over an over again. We mark the individual syllables as to whether they are stressed or not stressed, but we do not mark the feet in a particular line. In offering the suggestion, then, that JM was a syllable short in line one for making the line tetrameter — or even, for that mater, iambic tetrameter — and suggesting that she insert an extra syllable before the initial "When" to correct this situation, Turtle had made on some level a decision that all the lines on the poem had to be regular; and that what was there was not tetrameter in the first place. It is tetrameter. It is the same tetrameter with the omitted initial unaccented syllable that Blake was fond of and used in "The Tyger" and which Auden used in "In Memory of W.B. Yeats." "Earth receive an honored guest, William Yeats is laid to rest..." The same sort of thinking allows the hendecasyllabic line of Catullus to be used in English most frequently as a pentameter line. You can see a fair number of these in Frost, who was quite a Classisist. Usually 11 syllables, five feet. With Yeats and Blake, seven syllables and four feet. It helps to mark off the feet as well as the syllable stresses. Sometimes the syllable stresses of the words themselves are not the same ones as are figured in the actual count of stresses for the feet in the line because there is a matter of the relative heaviness of the stress in the line and how you go about counting that. How strongly the poem depends on a strong beat will also have a lot to do with these things. I agree in part with Turtle on the presence of a metrical problem in this line: of treasureded dreams; gulls in flight. . . I'm not certain that I agree with him about the nature of it. Turtle, if I remember correctly, points out the absence of an unaccented syllable just prior to "gulls." He suggests — if my memory doesn't fail me here — the use of "of" as a way of extending parallelism more explicitly and adding the extra syllable all at the same time. This is a perfectly fine solution, especially if you feel the situation requires that much of a fix. I would consider (after correcting the typo earlier in the line that got by your spell-check) a shift in punctuation from the semi-colon to a colon and capitalizing "Gulls." The capitalization is a personal idiosyncracy of mine and not one that's grammatically much favored these days, but it does add a little bit of extra weight to that initial syllable, and to my ear dignifies it as a syncopation rather than an omission. You might try it and see if you agree. If not, it's at least an option you've thought about. "from fathoms deep within the shadows of my mind" is understandable in its intention and communicative. It's also using somewhat overused language. Rhyme and meter will sometimes make demands on a writer that he or she look in some new direction for an association or train that they haven't found before. It's helpful in that way. It will also force us at times to follow paths that others have followed before us because English, unlike the Romance Languages where Rhyme got so much of its original impetus, English is a rhyme-poor language. This line and a half is also very abstract, and you're allowing your readers to drift away from the illusion that you're weaving of being just a bit ahead of them, and anticipating where their thoughts are about to go. Keats thought the writer's ability to do this successfully created "a willing suspension of disbelief" on the part of the reader, and you must always strive to create it, and you must always guard it once it's been created. If you allow things to get too abstract in the poem, it gets easy for your readers to fall out of the poem. Diction is important in both free verse and structured verse. Ideally, the language that we use to write poetry is pretty much the same language we use to talk to our friends and co-workers. Elevated tone is probably to be avoided because, among other things, it tends to violate the reader's "willing suspension of disbelief." Hence, "o'er" and "mem'ry" would cause your pals at the widget factory to look puzzled and go, "What?" They'd also get underlined by your spell-check. If you feel uncomfortable using a word or a locution with a bus driver, you should probably think twice about using it in a poem. This doesn't mean you shouldn't do it in the end; it does mean you'd better give it a lot of thought. "O'er" and "mem'ry" as you use them here are not only elevated diction, they're also archaic, and more specifically poeticisms. Get rid of them. Unless you and your friends do a lot of chatting about "bowers" in your spare time, I'd consider giving that the old heave-Ho as well. I've often suspected that women may well spend spare time talking about cleaving in their bowers when they're out taking a smoke break, but I've never really been all that sure. Please, JM, tell me it ain't so. I confess to enjoyment of the "ruffled streams." I actually can't remember having seen that one before and I like it. "Twilight" and "Christmas night" are a bit too familiar. What I must say is that I like the easy sense of facility with the metrics and the rhyme, mostly. It's better than I can do, and worth being proud of, with the caveats I've mentioned. The thing that needs to be kept in mind with metrical verse as well as free verse is that there is a direct line from the first word to the last, and that every word must aim at the next word in line and the last word in the poem all at the same time. You can't do this on the first draft or two, and sometimes not till much later; there it's all you can do to get the words and ideas down at all. But later, as you revise, you revise for this direct flow. You may not be able to see this until you've actually reached the last word in the revision, how everything fits together this way, but it's what you're after. Or at least it may be worth working on a bit for now. There's a poem by James Wright for Wayne Dodd, inscribed in a collection of the verse of Jonathan Swift — something like that — that would be worth your time in looking at. Wright was not only a very fine Free Verse poet, but he wrote some stunning formal verse as well. such as the Sonnet, "Saint Judas." Have a look at the Wayne Dodd poem if you can find it. It's in Iambic Tetrameter quatrains, AABB, CCDD...etc., so there's some overlap, but have a look at how the thing works up to the ending, and how everything contributes to it. Let me know what you think, if indeed you think anything of it at all. Keep working. All my best, Bob Kaven |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Thanks for your very thoughtful response, Bob. Bedtime here for me. I'll be back in the morning to give it a proper read and respond. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Beautiful crit Bob. Ron quote: Incredibly I have never seen it before now! I blame it on the fact that I tend to type to a WP, then ... cut paste and bang, hit submit, all in one seamless move. Ah well. Thanks. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I don't think the Yes or No Encourage Critiques response shows unless you type something in the Critique Message box. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Jenn If there is nothing in the comment box you just get: "Joe Blogs encourages constructive critiques". Incidentally don't you think that if you want to keep Bob's crit you should change your setting? M |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Bob, I can’t thank you enough for your wonderful in-depth critique! This was one of my “don’t have a clue what I’m doing but giving it a shot anyway” kind of posts. Also, in the year and a half since I posted this, have had a chance to read quite a bit of modern formal verse. If I’d waited until now to take that shot, there wouldn’t be a mem’ry or bower in sight. As for the abstractions, yep, that’s a lesson finally learned. Having recently become sort of addicted to fantasy fiction, particularly Le Guin’s work, something’s tweeking in my brain about new ways to turn abstractions into concrete images. Funny how unrelated things often connect. I just read Wright’s “St Judas” (what an amazing write! - link for anyone who’d care to read it http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:vwR-C1f-bM4J:famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/james_wright/poems/10926+%22Saint+Judas.%22&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us ) and see what you mean by “direct line from the first word to the last, and that every word must aim at the next word in line and the last word in the poem all at the same time” . A real V8 moment there and one I won’t forget! Can’t find Wright’s Wayne Dodd online, but will look elsewhere for it. As for meter, still need smelling salts when I try to sort it out, but it’s starting to make a little more sense. Think it was the allowed exceptions that were throwing me off. One thing that’s helped a bit is scanning random poems, just marking the lines and looking for patterns. Doesn’t matter if one knows the proper name of the pattern at first, it’s experiencing, recognizing the patterns that seems to give you the bit of confidence needed in order to move on to the next step. Again many thanks, Bob. A wonderful and eye-opening critique! Moonbeam, it just doesn't work that way for me when I open the reply box. Not sure why that would be. Already printed out Bob's critique. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Jenn, I think the answer is that the message comes up when you reply in current poetry forums but not if you reply in archived forums or non-poetry forums. I can see your message in Dark5 but not in Dark4. M |
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